Women in Combat

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shiv » 08 Nov 2011 21:03

jagbani wrote:At a time when the US is now allowing women to serve on board submarines


The US experience with women in submarines is interesting to say the least. I have posted it earlier in this thread.

The atmosphere inside a sub is said to be unhealthy for pregnant women (IIRC) . And guess what - at least one woman got pregnant and had to be evacuated. Fancy that on a nuke sub on a 6 month secret patrol. Ooops- gotta surface and catch a boat back home...

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Pratyush » 08 Nov 2011 21:33

^^^

Then dont get pregnant. The former Vice Chief of the IAF suggested that for a woman in service she needs to serve for 14 years before she is allowed to raise a family. Some thing like that could be implimented.

It must be remembered that a military is a fighting force and it cannot follow the norms of civil society

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shiv » 08 Nov 2011 21:42

Pratyush wrote:^^^

Then dont get pregnant. The former Vice Chief of the IAF suggested that for a woman in service she needs to serve for 14 years before she is allowed to raise a family. Some thing like that could be implimented.

It must be remembered that a military is a fighting force and it cannot follow the norms of civil society


Pratyush..really? :D

It's always nice to observe a group of young men and women of reproductive age living together. Interesting chemistry.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Pratyush » 08 Nov 2011 21:50

Truly,

If that is the only way for a Military to maintain combat effectiveness then so be it. You cannot have a fraction of your force away on maternity leave when they are needed. So they forfit the right to become pregnant. Besides if a Female wants to be a mom, she can always chose some one else to be a surrogate mother fro her child. But no pregnancy while in service and she is of fighting age.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shiv » 08 Nov 2011 22:05

Pratyush wrote:But no pregnancy while in service and she is of fighting age.


The problem is that the more absurdly difficult you make the rules to comply with, the greater the chance you are taking that they will be broken. You just DO NOT enclose young and fit men and women together for months at a time on an absolutely crucial job and imagine that they will keep off each other because of rules you make.

A few days ago - a simulated Mars mission crew, all male, came out after 500 odd days in Isolation. An earlier attempt ended prematurely when one crew member tried to kiss a female member.

Sexual urges are like breathing, eating and peeing. They are fundamental to human survival. Asking people to lock them away is asking for trouble.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby member_19686 » 09 Nov 2011 01:01

jagbani wrote:At a time when the US is now allowing women to serve on board submarines and countries like Australia are dismantling all gender barriers to allow female troops to serve on the frontlines, India remains extremely reluctant to even give them permanent jobs in the military.
Source:- http://www.punjabkesari.in/punjab/fulls ... 58_153735-

Yes because they toe the feminazi line and want to be PC.

Most of the people who make these recommendations never served a day in their life, if you talk to guys serving in the US Military most of them detest the women because of the preferential treatment they get from basic training onward. I have a buddy serving as a grunt and he sure as hell hates all of them, just go to US Infantry pages on FB and see what they are saying.

Image

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Kanson » 09 Nov 2011 01:21

shiv wrote:
Pratyush wrote:But no pregnancy while in service and she is of fighting age.


The problem is that the more absurdly difficult you make the rules to comply with, the greater the chance you are taking that they will be broken. You just DO NOT enclose young and fit men and women together for months at a time on an absolutely crucial job and imagine that they will keep off each other because of rules you make.

A few days ago - a simulated Mars mission crew, all male, came out after 500 odd days in Isolation. An earlier attempt ended prematurely when one crew member tried to kiss a female member.

Sexual urges are like breathing, eating and peeing. They are fundamental to human survival. Asking people to lock them away is asking for trouble.

Yeah, well noted. But it is not exactly the opportunity to prove that Human is different and in evolved stage than animals ?

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby member_19686 » 09 Nov 2011 01:28

Kanson wrote:Yeah, well noted. But it is not exactly the opportunity to prove that Human is different and in evolved stage than animals ?

Humans are just another animal and there is no such thing as "evolved stage", evolution is not a directive process. Species do not evolve from simple to complex but adapt the best they can to their respective environments.

Analyze human society un-emotionally as a society of great apes. Compare human behavior with that of chimpanzees, gorrillas and orangutans and use the phylogenetic bracket methodology to draw your inferences. It would help a whole lot - pursue it to its logical conclusions rather than doing lip service and then turning away.

Or Watch:


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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shiv » 09 Nov 2011 06:10

Kanson wrote:Yeah, well noted. But it is not exactly the opportunity to prove that Human is different and in evolved stage than animals ?


Kanson, with deep respect - this is a human invented belief - specifically it is a Christian belief (maybe other religions as well) that God made man superior to animals in some way. It is simply not true. Humans are basically animals. Surasena is absolutely right in saying
Humans are just another animal and there is no such thing as "evolved stage"

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Pratyush » 09 Nov 2011 10:28

Shiv Ji,

I understand that sexual urges will be hard to suppress. After all the purpose of a man & woman is to come together and make a baby and raise it. But what I am saying is that even if sexual attraction cannot be suppressed, the reproductive health can be managed between members of opposite genders. So that, it becomes a conscious decision of between the partners. If you get my drift.

OTOH, people with background in sports medicine can confirm how does the monthly cycle of an elite female athlete behaves. Will she have normal monthly cycle or will it be suppressed by her body due to the pressures of performing at the highest level. I ask because the periods are directly related to the ovulation by the woman. A woman in the military will need to be at the top of her game and she will have a similar monthly cycles.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shiv » 09 Nov 2011 10:49

Pratyush wrote:OTOH, people with background in sports medicine can confirm how does the monthly cycle of an elite female athlete behaves. Will she have normal monthly cycle or will it be suppressed by her body due to the pressures of performing at the highest level. I ask because the periods are directly related to the ovulation by the woman. A woman in the military will need to be at the top of her game and she will have a similar monthly cycles.


Pratyush cycles are not suppressed and cannot be suppressed except by pregnancy or menopause (or temporarily by modern - post 1960 drugs). There are fundamental life processes in the body at work here. I kid you not when I compare it with breathing, eating and peeing. It's called physiology - normal life processes. The cycles are totally normal. Cycles can sometimes become irregular in athletes but that is not the norm. "Irregular" ,means they can come early or late, or become heavier or lighter. But they will_not_go_away in a normal woman of reproductive age. These are medical facts and remember that some of us have wives and daughters who are also athletes.

Humans are animals and just a few centuries ago women had to run and hunt with men with or without babies. Some still do in remote corners of the world, including India. If mere exercise upset cycles the human race would not survive.

I want to add a point about the "conscious decision". If you take a man and put him in front of a lot of food and then ask him to make a "conscious decision" not to eat, but to drink only water how long can you expect the man to comply with your order? One day? Five days? Ten days? Three months. Put men and women together in confined spaces and sooner or later you are asking for sex to happen. It won't be their fault. They would be normal. It is the person who gave the order and who thinks that they will behave abnormal who is being phenomenally stupid.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Pratyush » 09 Nov 2011 10:55

Oh.......

Thanks for the education. Just needed it confirmed.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Airavat » 29 Nov 2011 08:31

Image
General Khatool Mohammadzai, aged 45, made more than 600 jumps in her 28-year military career, and her precise and daring skydives used to be a regular part of every Independence Day and New Year’s celebration in Kabul.

The Kabul of Mohammadzai’s childhood was a proudly cosmopolitan city. Men and women alike were legally entitled to public education and good jobs; burqas were a rare sight, and young women routinely wore miniskirts or jeans. “In those days it wasn’t necessary for a woman to cover her hair, arms, and legs,” she recalls. The girl was 13 when the Soviet Army invaded Afghanistan. Many in Kabul actually welcomed the coming of the Russians; a violent power struggle had erupted among Afghanistan’s Marxist rulers, and the hope was that the December 1979 invasion would stabilize the government. In fact, the effort succeeded, at least in a limited way.

When an Afghan military recruiter came to her high school on graduation day and asked for volunteers to join the Afghan Army, the 17-year-old immediately raised her hand. Her mother was struggling to support the family, and jobs were hard to find—but more than that, Mohammadzai says she craved the challenges of military life. “I wanted to do what was most demanding, strenuous, and athletic,” she says. So she signed up to become a paratrooper. She vividly recalls how she and her fellow volunteers, almost all men, were sent on a two-day, 150-kilometer march over rough terrain from Kabul to the eastern city of Jalalabad with full packs. The young woman slept in the open among the male trainees. A rock was her pillow, and by the time the ordeal was over, her feet were bleeding. “We suffered a lot,” she says. But she aced the course.

In 1989, after nine years of an exorbitantly draining war, the Russians gave up and went home. The Afghan puppet regime managed to survive for three more years before collapsing in 1992. But the victorious guerrillas couldn’t afford to punish Mohammadzai too harshly for having been on the losing side; they desperately needed professional soldiers with her skills. She was named director of women’s physical training for the Air Defense Corps. And yet in many ways the mujahedin’s attitude toward women wasn’t much different from that of the Taliban: they barred her from parachute jumping, and she was required to wear a head-to-toe abaya whenever she appeared in public. Although Mohammadzai didn’t like the situation, she had no choice. She had married an Afghan soldier in 1990, and he was killed in action just a year later, only 40 days after she had given birth to his son.

Life became even tougher when the Taliban captured Kabul in 1996. All women were ordered to stay indoors at home until further notice, and Mohammadzai found herself trapped in her small apartment, with little money and no prospects, forbidden to work or even step outside unless escorted by a male relative. But she and her son survived, and soon after the collapse of the Taliban regime she was called back to active duty with the new Afghan National Army. In her apartment she proudly displays certificates of merit from the U.S. Army’s 173rd Airborne Combat Brigade and 82nd Airborne Division, and she’s been awarded paratrooper medals by the United States, Canada, and France.

Afghanistan's first female paratrooper

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Virendra » 29 Nov 2011 12:48

In ancient times in India, women used to take part in battle. At least in a defensive role at the final desperate battle to hold the base/fort.
They also used to accompany male counterparts in activities like sparring and hunting.
Ofcourse there were no secret 6 month submarine patrols then. But I guess women can still contribute in armed forces, depending on the role and scenario.

Regards,
Virendra

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Rahul M » 28 Dec 2011 09:40

they already do. the point being ?

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shiv » 14 Jan 2012 06:36

cross post
A Sharma wrote:Women in Army


Good video. Two things that I notice
1. There seems to be a greater understanding and appreciation of women in the army - to the extent of the way a male trainer speaks of the nuances of language required to communicate with women

2. The girls are looking tougher and beefier than earlier videos/pics I used to see.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby abhishek_sharma » 11 Feb 2012 07:23


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Re: Women in Combat

Postby rajrang » 14 Mar 2012 12:22

Are men better at close combat situations? See link below:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 256459.cms

and do some men have more of this than others, due perhaps to heriditary, racial etc. differences?

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Lalmohan » 17 Mar 2012 17:37

its one genetic trait found in males compared to females. the female response to reasoning with a threat is probably more sensible - it avoids physical danger and harm if successful - and is better adapted to females with offspring in a dangerous situation. males (of all species) have to be able to fight or fly

social conditioning otherwise

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby keshavchandra » 19 Mar 2012 23:56

No combat role for women in armed forces: Antony
Link
The government Monday made it clear that it has no proposal to induct women in combat roles in the defence forces, including as fighter pilots in the Indian Air Force. Parliament was also informed that there has been a 67 percent increase in the recruitment of women officers into the army, navy and air force in the last three years.

“There is no proposal to induct women into combat duties in the defence forces including as fighter pilots in the Indian Air Force,” Defence Minister A.K. Antony said in a written reply during question hour.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby SRoy » 20 Mar 2012 00:02

Though my folks and friends in Services have a ready (and oft repeated) answer, I wish to put this to BRF at large.

Why are women not inducted into non-commissioned ranks?

Anyone?

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby ArmenT » 20 Mar 2012 12:52

SRoy wrote:Though my folks and friends in Services have a ready (and oft repeated) answer, I wish to put this to BRF at large.

Why are women not inducted into non-commissioned ranks?

Anyone?

Aren't there any in non-combat roles (mail handling, nurses, clerks, computer operators etc.) in the Indian military? What does the Indian military do when they need to frisk a bunch of female suspects? Bring in a female officer, use female NCOs or use female police to do the job? Most other militaries around the world have NCO women serving in jobs like this.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby SRoy » 20 Mar 2012 13:01

^^

Indian Armed Forces do not have women NCOs and hence my open question.

My real interest is to hear opinions here.

The people who wish to have the combat branches made open for women never have asked for entry of women into non-commisioned ranks even in trades that you mentioned.

There has to be a reason?

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby tsarkar » 20 Mar 2012 14:19

SRoy wrote:Why are women not inducted into non-commissioned ranks?
An indicative answer http://cyclicstories.blogspot.in/2011/1 ... erone.html

ArmenT wrote:Aren't there any in non-combat roles (mail handling, nurses, clerks, computer operators etc.) in the Indian military?
AMC and MNS have been in existance for long and have been inducting women before WW1. Mahatma Gandhi served as a military nursing orderly in the Boer War in South Africa. http://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/FormTempl ... MvuTVy6w==

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_N ... ice_(India)

ArmenT wrote:What does the Indian military do when they need to frisk a bunch of female suspects?
Indian army does not typically frisk, it is done by local police/CRPF/BSF as the case my be.

During the Mumbai riots in the 90's, an Army patrol caught Shiv Sena leader Madhukar Sarpotdar with arms and ammunition in his vehicle. During the court case, his defence lawyer argued Army didnt have the right to search. He went away scot free. BTW, check the Dawood Ibrahim connection to Sarpotdar here http://dcubed.dilipdsouza.com/2010/03/1 ... where.html

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby SRoy » 20 Mar 2012 14:28

^^

tsarkar

AMC/MNS is an exception. As you said they existed before WWI.

Post-Independence women begun entering as officers only during early 1990s.

So my question remains why not in the non-commisioned ranks? I'm asking for BRF opinion (please don't post blogposts and such like, because for opinion outside BRF I have family members & friends in service and as ex), since BRF seems to be quite excited about the idea of women in combat.

My question is even basic, if women are good enough for combat branches as officers why not as non-commissioned entrants , in non-combat branches to begin with?

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby tsarkar » 20 Mar 2012 14:31

SRoy wrote:So my question remains...
Did you read the link in my last post in response to this question?

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby SRoy » 20 Mar 2012 14:40

^^

Yes I did.

IMHO, that does partially addresses the question.

I'm questioning something more fundamental. Why do we imagine a single women NCO surrounded by 20 or 30 men NCO's?

What are the arguements if it were a case equal ratio of men or women NCOs? Or let me be more lenient... an all women clerical or logistics section?

PS: The issue of a lone woman surrounded by 2 dozen testosterone charged young men (as in the blogpost likn) in fact goes against the case of women officers in combat.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby tsarkar » 20 Mar 2012 16:01

SRoy wrote:Why do we imagine a single women NCO surrounded by 20 or 30 men NCO's? What are the arguements if it were a case equal ratio of men or women NCOs?
That would be the armed forces of Utopia.

There are CRPF all women Mahila Battalions that do well in civil disturbance situations. But they are quickly rotated and rarely undergo prolonged deployment.

SRoy wrote:PS: The issue of a lone woman surrounded by 2 dozen testosterone charged young men (as in the blogpost likn) in fact goes against the case of women officers in combat.
Officers carry authority that shapes their soldiers behavior towards them. Peer ranks will not command the same authority. It is for this reason that AMC officers (irrespective of gender) are promoted faster than officers of other cadres. To ensure other cadre officers OBEY the AMC doctor/surgeon when being treated in life threatening situations.

Here is US Army experience of peer behavior http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8005198.stm and http://www.salon.com/2007/03/07/women_in_military/

You'll need to further improve your HO by reading through earlier posts in earlier pages and practical experiences rather than "I suppose" situations.

FWIW, a woman jawan was commissioned in TA, so there is no stopping those mentally and physically qualified to handle the job. We have all encountered CISF mixed battalions at airports that work 8 hour shifts at extremely comfortable workplaces.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby SRoy » 20 Mar 2012 16:12

^^
I've put the question to people that regularly post in this thread. I'm interested to know their views. My HO does not matter.

Experiences of Western armies ... there are cultural issues involved.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby tsarkar » 20 Mar 2012 16:40

SRoy wrote:Experiences of Western armies are as useful as "I suppose" situations.
Do you infer "Indian" males produce less testesterone or Indian women lack sexual drive than "western" counterparts?

SRoy wrote:There are cultural issues involved.
Please elaborate. Do you think most Indian men think all women are sisters and mothers :rotfl: or "Indian cultural sensibilities" inhibit Indian women's sex drives :rotfl: ?

Get real, this is why I said your HO needs to be updated with life's realities.

Here's one reality http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/fear ... cide-98414
Another reality http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/jilt ... uty-116596

These are extreme cases that made news. But even at a basic level, testesterone and progesterone are a pervasive reality.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby SRoy » 20 Mar 2012 16:58

^^

You seem to confusing culture with biology :) And you also seem to know what all other Indian men think.

Interestingly, talking of life's realities...among my family members and friends that are in the Services the view on the topic is quite different from yours.

I wished to know what is the opinion of BRFites on the topic, I think I get a drift of your opinion. Thanks and lets move on.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby tsarkar » 20 Mar 2012 18:32

SRoy wrote:You seem to confusing culture with biology
That is your opinion. I am crystal clear in explain the organizational and physical nuances of women inducted as NCOs/ORs.
SRoy wrote:And you also seem to know what all other Indian men think.
This too, is your opinion. My posts makes no such claims.
SRoy wrote:among my family members and friends that are in the Services
Good to know that. I was an instructor to a batch that included women cadets while in the Navy. And a relative's daughter was a part of the first batch of women that joined the IAF as ground engineers. She's now retired and immigrated to Canada.
SRoy wrote:...the view on the topic is quite different from yours...I wished to know what is the opinion of BRFites on the topic
When one solicits public opinion, it might not be what one wants to hear or a reflection of own opinion. Also, one cannot summarily reject experiences (the quoted blog) or facts (the quoted publication) when it doesnt suit their point of view.

On the larger issue, I am all for individuals who fit the bill, irrespective of caste, creed, gender, etc. May the best warrior defend India.

What I am against is political correctness that might be detrimental to organizational effectiveness. The services have, in cases, been forced to create billets when none were required to accomodate women officers.

SRoy wrote:I think I get a drift of your opinion. Thanks and lets move on.
You are welcome, and it was good discussing with you too.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby SRoy » 20 Mar 2012 19:25

tsarkar wrote:What I am against is political correctness that might be detrimental to organizational effectiveness. The services have, in cases, been forced to create billets when none were required to accomodate women officers.

Nice that you have affirmed your stand, which I concur with. I think we talked past each other.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Kannan » 19 Apr 2012 02:16

Surasena wrote:
jagbani wrote:At a time when the US is now allowing women to serve on board submarines and countries like Australia are dismantling all gender barriers to allow female troops to serve on the frontlines, India remains extremely reluctant to even give them permanent jobs in the military.
Source:- http://www.punjabkesari.in/punjab/fulls ... 58_153735-

Yes because they toe the feminazi line and want to be PC.

Most of the people who make these recommendations never served a day in their life, if you talk to guys serving in the US Military most of them detest the women because of the preferential treatment they get from basic training onward. I have a buddy serving as a grunt and he sure as hell hates all of them, just go to US Infantry pages on FB and see what they are saying.


That's dumb and untrue. My friend graduated from West Point and she flies the Blackhawk, deployed to Afghanistan now. I am sure the enlisted people do hate them, but the officer corps hardly cares and most of the enlisted people aren't exactly the "best and the brightest".

I really hope you don't progress through life basing your viewpoints on the wisdom in comments section of newspaper articles and facebook pages.

PS I am pretty sure she can fly better than you

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby SagarAg » 19 Apr 2012 15:54

Image
8)
Can anybody tell the difference between blue, black, red, green, dark green cap ?
Source (Facebook)

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby nelson » 19 Apr 2012 16:28

Beret = Cap;

Black = {Armoured Corps}-{Para}
Blue = {Artillery, AAD, Engineers, Signals, ASC, AMC, AOC, EME, Other services}-{Para}
Grey = {AAC}
Green = {Infantry, Mechanised Infantry}-{Para}
Maroon = {Paratroopers including SF}
Scarlet Red = {CMP}

It is not Red, the fifth lady from the left is wearing Maroon beret.
Personnel from some Infantry regiments probably light inf and rifle regiments wear light green beret, i am not sure.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby samverma » 19 Apr 2012 16:37

Blue is for signals, supply corp (U can see the ordnance pip on her shoulder) and i think some of the artillery regiments. Black is usually for armoured but not sure here...Red is actually Maroon...the concerned person in the picture is para qualified (i think is the correct terminology) and has something like "AMC" on the shoulder (medical people are involved as para trained personnel)..also u can see the para wings on the right top pocket of the uniform.

The bright Breen at the end...not sure.....some infantry regiment...

The senior officer shaking hands looks like the Lt. Gen, GOC- Delhi Area...forgot his name..had bumped into him at the Delhi Taurus canteen....Srinvasan i think.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby samverma » 19 Apr 2012 16:38

Beret = Cap;

Black = {Armoured Corps}-{Para}
Blue = {Artillery, AAD, Engineers, Signals, ASC, AMC, AOC, EME, Other services}-{Para}
Grey = {AAC}
Green = {Infantry, Mechanised Infantry}-{Para}
Maroon = {Paratroopers including SF}
Scarlet Red = {CMP}

It is not Red, the fifth lady from the left is wearing Maroon beret.
Personnel from some Infantry regiments probably light inf and rifle regiments wear light green beret, i am not sure.



Nelson sir, U beat me to it by seconds :)

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby abhishek_sharma » 06 May 2012 07:01


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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Surya » 06 Jul 2012 01:52

Get over it we are not created equal

a Marine woman combat veteran writes in the Marine journal
about her experiences in Afghnaisthan and the physical problems she faces now
very interesting

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/arti ... ated-equal


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