Tracking Errors in Defence reporting

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sbangera
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Postby sbangera » 19 Feb 2008 02:36

^^
Shiv, Could it be that the DM is standing in front of a plane but actually looking at a "helicopter". His line of sight does indicate an object close to the aircraft's nose.

Well the hack who wrote the caption must have applied for investigative journalisim. :wink: :wink:

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Postby Rudranathh » 19 Feb 2008 09:31

Image

Defence Minister AK Antony along with the Air Force Chief FH Major (Second from left) looking at a helecoptor on display at the Russian stall at the DefExpo India 2008 defence fair at Pragati Maidan in New Delhi. (PTI)

sbangera even if what you are saying is true, the reporter could not get even the spelling of helicopter correctly.

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Postby ramana » 20 Feb 2008 02:39

From Deccan Chronicle, 20 Feb. 2008

Fugitive ISI agent may have slipped into city


Pune/Hyderabad, Feb. 19: Syed Mohammad Desai, 50, an ISI agent wanted by the police, is suspected to have slipped into Hyderabad after escaping from Pune. Police learned about Desai’s whereabouts after arresting an ex-Army man, Shailesh Jadhav, who had links with the former. Jadhav, who was arrested from Satara, confessed to the police that he hid Desai after he escaped from police custody on January 23. He also reportedly put him on a vehicle which was travelling to Hyderabad via Belgaum.

Police searched Jadhav’s houses in Satara and seized some documents and bank pass books. His cell phones contained numbers of Pakistani contacts. Jadhav had been court-martialled by the Army for financial fraud and had met Desai in the Yerwada Jail in 2004. Desai was to be deported to Pakistan but police officers could not complete formalities for this because of the apathetic attitude of the Pakistani Embassy. He had been released by a local court after he completed a seven-year jail term for passing on classified information on the Khadki Ordnance Factory here to the ISI authorities.

Meanwhile, terror suspect Mohammed Riyazuddin Nasir alias Mohammed Ghouse has disclosed to the Bangalore police that he had been planning to blow up select targets by crashing petrol tankers on to them. Nasir, who is believed to have planted the bomb in Lumbini Park in Hyderabad, made this revelation during narcoanalysis conducted at the Bangalore Forensic Science Laboratory. Police sources said that Nasir had also drawn up plans to blow up targets with explosives in Uttar Pradesh. Nasir had earlier revealed in narcoanalysis that he had hatched a plot to blow up the AP Police Headquarters or the DGP office with an explosives laden jeep. Hitec City and the Shamshabad airport were also in his list of targets.

Nasir also reportedly said that he had offered to become a suicide bomber when he met Harkat-ul-Jehad-e-Islami south India commander Shahed alias Bilal, who is suspected to have masterminded the Mecca Masjid and twin blasts. The AP police is now trying to get Nasir on a transit warrant to interrogate him further.


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Postby Gerard » 20 Feb 2008 06:48

xinhua has reproduced the PTI nonsense, complete with mangled headline :D
Indian Army to receive warheads for Prithvi nuclear capable
NEW DELHI, Feb. 17 (Xinhua) -- Indian Army is all set to receive a warhead for Prithvi nuclear capable, Pinaka rocket, from the Ordnance Factory in neighboring Chandrapur district on Feb. 27, according to a report of All India Radio .

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Postby shiv » 20 Feb 2008 06:54

ramana wrote:seven-year jail term for passing on classified information on the Khadki Ordnance Factory here


"Khadki" known in Brit days as Kirkee is an area of Poona (Pune) which really does have an ordnance factory. Khadki is also the site of the Military CME (Colleg of Military Engineering)

I used to pass through Kirkee and nearby Dapodi on my way to school every morning the the 1960s. Dapodi and nearby areas had huge areas in which tanks were kept in storage. I those days the area was merely fenced off with high barbed wire and sentry towers as in some WW 2 stalag. I used to see Sherman tanks there apart from others which I was unable to identify in those days.

In 1965 and in 1971 - Kirkee and Dapodi railway stations used to have goods trains loaded with tanks and army vehicles and on one occasion in 1971 the school bus had to stop at a railway intersection while were taken across.

After a huge explosion in the Khadki ordnance factory in the 1960s was the first time I ever saw a real mushroom cloud.

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Postby shiv » 20 Feb 2008 08:25

The following is a cross post from the LCA thread. It finds a place here NOT becasue it is by a DDM - but it bashed DDM thoroughly and must find a place of honor here:

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20080218_duds05.html
India's Light Combat Aircraft: When duds begin to fly news
Rajiv Singh
18 February 2008
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the R&D arm of India's defence ministry, is not one of the most transparent organisations in the country. Involved as it is in development of military hardware of the future, it perhaps cannot really open up all its secrets for friend and foe to see.
That's the story of defence R&D organisations all over the world.
This compulsion to keep things under wraps can work against an organisation. It does, against the DRDO sometimes, because the DRDO is unable to rise to the bait and provide details to refute newspaper stories based on ignorance, bias or sheer motivation.
That these stories begin to fly around the time when a major aerospace or defence exhibition is held makes one wonder whether some of these reports are indeed motivated by a desire to please deep-pocketed global defence equipment companies that are desperate to sell their materiel to the Indian armed forces.
A year ago, before the Aero India 2007 show in Bangalore in February, a series of articles referring to ''DRDO's duds'', run almost like a campaign, adorned the pages of a national daily, hammering the DRDO with some truths and some half-truths. This year, just before the DefExpo2008 in New Delhi, beginning 16 February, we see another attack on the DRDO for its supposedly miserable performance in developing the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Tejas in another leading national daily.
A recent report in a leading national daily calls upon defence minister A K Antony to ''take a close look at the fighter which typifies all that is wrong with defence projects in India''. Then it proceeds to list ''all that is wrong with defence projects in India''.
The article points out that the LCA project was sanctioned in 1983 at a cost of Rs.560 crore; now, 25 years later, the cost has escalated to Rs.5,489.78 crore, even as the fighter remains another four years away from becoming fully operational.
That is damning. Sanctioned in 1983 and still not done! The conclusion that people are left to draw is that it was a complete waste investing in the indigenous development of the LCA. It would have been far simpler, cheaper, and safer (from the point of view of India's current defence needs) to have imported the aircraft from an American or European company – or maybe the Russians.
But that's not all. Intended or not, these campaigns end up drumming into our national psyche the stereotype of the inferior, shoddy, third-world DRDO versus technologically sophisticated Western aerospace companies.

So let's take a look at how some of these global defence companies have fared with their projects.
Take the Eurofighter Typhoon, one of the most ''advanced'' fighter aircraft projects in the world, and also a bidder for the Indian Air Force's medium range multi role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender. The Typhoon owes its genesis to a European Combat Aircraft (ECA) study group formed in 1979. Development began officially in 1983 and the deadline set for commissioning it was fixed as December 1998. This deadline was then extended to December 2001. The induction of the Tranche1 versions into the UK's Royal Air Force was made in 2003 – fully two decades after an official start, more if you go back to1979.
The Tranche 2 version was inducted into service in 2005, another two years later. Now, in 2008, 25 years down the line (or three decades if you take 1979 as the starting point), the Eurofighter programme is yet to field a fully developed Tranche 3 multi-role version – the version that all the partner nations have actually been waiting for.
This is how it is with not one but several European nations that can pump in resources way above anything India and the DRDO can manage. The Eurofighter programme is a project of a consortium that includes British, Germans, Italians and Spanish governments and companies.
The irony is that by the time the Tranche 3 multi-role version finally enters squadron service, the American stealth fighters, the F-22 Raptor and the JSF-35 Lightning II, would have made their entry in sufficiently large numbers to put the Eurofighter in the shadow.
Since the Typhoon wouldn't really like to go up against either of these aircraft on a one-on-one basis you can say that obsolescence is built into the design of the Typhoon!
So what is the big deal about the Typhoon? The fact is that development of the Typhoon has given European aerospace industries a depth of experience and expertise that they wouldn't have missed out on for anything.
In terms of functionalities, the Eurofighter Typhoon combines the capabilities of the American F-15 Eagle and the F/A-18 Hornet in one compact platform. Some experts argued that the Europeans could have saved a lot of time, grief and money by opting for a mix of these American aircraft early on in the game.
However, the Europeans refused to make off-the-shelf purchases of these American fighters. Why? Because they did not want to lose out on the design expertise and the building of a sophisticated manufacturing base that the development of such an aircraft would result in.
Almost three decades later they are still lumbering on.

Cost overruns
Let's see how the Eurofighter has fared in terms of cost overruns. In 1988, the UK's secretary of state for defence told the House of Commons that the European Fighter Aircraft would cost the UK about £7 billion. The figure soon ballooned to £13 billion. By 1997 the estimated cost was £17 billion, and by 2003 it was £20 billion. Since 1993, the UK ministry of defence has refused to release updated cost estimates on the grounds of 'commercial sensitivity.'
Now, a late January 2008 press report says that the Eurofighter consortium has informed partners that the project cost has escalated by another £7.5 billion or so. That too, only for partners; ''clients'' will have to shell out even more.
However, these figures are subject to change, if the UK, for example, should back out of its commitments for Tranche 3 aircraft, of which it is committed to receive 88. Costs per unit of the Eurofighter would go up accordingly.
The Eurofighter consortium argues that its cost increases and delays compare favourably with those of the US F-22 Raptor programme. According to the Eurofighter consortium, the Typhoon is apparently only 14 per cent over-budget and just 54 months late, as compared to the Raptor, which is 127 per cent over-budget and 117 months late!
So, if the Europeans haven't been very efficient with their project it appears the Americans haven't been managing all too well either with their famed Raptor. This, in spite of their deep, deep pockets and the vast experience and arms producing infrastructure that they have.

Not indigenous …
The litany doesn't stop with complaints about the cost overruns. The article on DRDO's failures points out that when the IAF eventually inducts an LCA squadron, around 2012 or so, it will be powered by American GE-404 engines and Israeli radars, besides several other 'foreign' parts. Hardly 'indigenous', wouldn't you say?
This only betrays ignorance about the way in which R&D is done worldwide. The Eurofighter is a classic example of how Europe has gone about trying to negate American dominance in the field of fighter technology.
Everything about it - engines, armaments, airframes, et al - is a collaborative venture. The left wing, to provide one instance, will be manufactured by the Italian firm Alenia Aeronautica, and the right wing by Spain's EADS CASA. The aircraft's EJ200 engine has been developed by Eurojet GmbH, owned jointly by Rolls Royce, MTU Aero Engines, Fiat Aviazione and ITP.
Such collaboration applied to the US too. Several suppliers are involved in programmes identified with any one company. A Lockheed project, for instance, would easily have a competitor like Boeing or Northrop Grumman, or other companies, involved in the manufacture or integration of specific systems – and nobody's perishing of shame because of that.
So, if American GE-404 engines power our first lot of LCAs no need for any Indian to perish of shame because of that.
As for Israeli radars, there are any number of top-of-the-line, hush-hush projects where the Americans access Israeli technology and expertise, and vice versa. Why should we have a problem with their radars?
India recently launched Israel's state-of-the-art TecSAR spy satellite into 'pinpoint' orbit. According to ISRO chairman G Madhavan, the Israelis were very specific about the kind of orbit they wanted the TecSAR to achieve, which ISRO met flawlessly. Our boys are proud of their achievement, and so far, no Israeli appears to be blushing with shame.
As the decade rolls by there will be much of Israel that we shall be using, and not just radars. For that matter there is much that Israel will use, which it would have jointly developed with India.
Decades of development
The report concedes that developing a supersonic fly-by-wire fighter jet from scratch, with international sanctions in place, can be an extremely complex task, but says that taking almost three decades is ''criminal'', it implies.
Is the three decades of development for the Eurofighter also criminal? As for the Americans, the F-22 Raptor programme, for instance, was initiated in 1986, after years of initial study. It achieved 'full operational clearance' (FOC) only on 12 December 2007 - a full 21 years after the requests for proposals were issued. Is 21 years criminal or slightly less than criminal?
A distant FOC …
The article also takes a dim view of the defence ministry's happiness at the LCA conducting a successful test firing of an air-to-air missile. The ministry's proclamation of it as a ''historic event'' marking the beginning of the 'weaponisation' of the LCA seems inappropriate to the author.
The author of the above-mentioned article points out the repeated rescheduling of the initial operational clearance and final operational clearance of the Tejas: ''As things stand now, IOC is projected by 2010 and FOC by 2012.'' Well, the Eurofighter still has to assume its final Tranche 3 avatar, so it will actually complete three decades before it achieves FOC itself. And, as pointed out earlier, the F-22 Raptor achieved FOC on 12 December 2007, a full 21 years after project sanction.

The article says that blame for the delay in the LCA programme needs to be apportioned equally between various agencies involved, such as ''the Aeronautical Development Agency, Defence Research and Development Organisation, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, and even the IAF, which has frequently changed requirements of weapons and electronic warfare midway, have to share the blame''.
Sure, playing the blame game is so easy. But what happens worldwide? What do similar organisations around the world, such as the USAF or US Navy or US Army do with their programmes?
The question is, why not? Life is dynamic - scenarios change overnight. War strategies and battlefield scenarios have changed dramatically since 1983. Should the DRDO have stuck to the scenarios as they existed 25 years ago, and rendered the LCA obsolete even before it went into production?
Obsolescence
The article points out that the IAF has placed an order for only 20 aircraft even though early projections were for 220 aircraft for the IAF and the Indian Navy. It also says that the IAF is worried whether ''the LCA will be a top-notch fighter once it is ready.''
The 20 limited series production aircraft order from the Indian Air Force is an initial order. Any order for a new fighter aircraft is invariably for at least 40. A naval version is also under development and an initial order from the Indian Navy is also very likely. A naval version will allow our Air Defence Ship, currently under construction at the Kochi shipyards, to carry a larger complement of fighters onboard, as compared to the larger Mig-29Ks that are currently scheduled to operate only from the INS Vikramaditya (ex-Admiral Gorshkov).

As for worries about the LCA not being a top-notch fighter when finally ready, how different is this predicament that from the Eurofighter? By the time the Tranche 3 Eurofighter achieves full operationalisation, America's F-22 and JSF-35 programmes will already have overtaken it technologically. So, no surprises if the same is true for the LCA.
The point of trying to develop the LCA indigenously was not merely to supply aircraft to the IAF and the navy. Just as the Europeans have used the Eurofighter to develop their technologies for next generation projects, the Indian defence R&D establishment has sought to use the LCA as a platform on which to develop several technologies for the future.
The Europeans know that if there is a political rift with the Americans, they will find themselves up a creek without a paddle. The development of top-notch technology through the Typhoon programme gives them independence from US hegemony.
It would, therefore, be wrong to look upon the LCA merely as a fighter-manufacturing programme. It is in fact a unique test bed for the development of aerospace technologies that will take us to an acceptable level of competence in this field. It is a fighter programme, a technology demonstrator and a technology generator, all at the same time.
Upon maturity, the programme may serve the purpose it was designed for, which is to fight - or it might not. That wouldn't matter. By then it would have developed enough technologies to provide a technology base for our own medium combat aircraft (MCA) programme.
The MCA is India's own fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) programme. Though we have a pact with the Russians to co-develop an FGFA with them, the MCA is our fallback. If and when the Russians act tough and repeat a Gorshkov on this programme, we shouldn't find ourselves scrounging around for the required technology.
By the time the LCA achieves maturity it would have already paid back in full, by way of technologies and expertise that it would have generated over the life of its programme.
For that matter, domestic orders aren't the only option for such a project. Pompous though it may sound, there is a possibility that smaller countries may opt for something like the LCA, which for them may well be a more comfortable, manageable aircraft, both in terms of cost and technology. Not every country will be interested in the F-22 Raptor, purchasing a squadron of which could very likely wipe out half, or more, of some national economies.
If India builds its own technology capabilities, who loses? It's the arms merchants of the world. So, come events like the DefExpo in New Delhi, they would love to have some mainline newspapers do some DRDO bashing. That can reinforce some myths about Indian R&D and help them sell some of their wares. But there is no reason we should fall for these ploys.


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Postby SaiK » 27 Feb 2008 21:44

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/India_test_fires_submarine-launched_ballistic_missile/articleshow/2817645.cms

..amid some indications that the test was "not fully successful".

..did not meet all the pre-flight parameters laid down for the test conducted

..The first test of Agni-III missile in July 2006, incidentally, had flopped miserably. Though the second test in April 2007 was successful, it will take at least three to four tests more for this China-specific missile to be fully-ready


against DRDO saying we have not analyzed the data yet. Who is this guy?

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Postby KarthikSan » 28 Feb 2008 21:18

Why do all the TV reporters (especially that Vishal Thapar guy) speak in that funny way? He literally yells certain words! Does he think that he is making an impact on people or is he trying to follow Nirmala Periswamy of the "VANAKKAM" fame from Sun TV :lol:

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Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2008 21:27

In the begining I used to think DDMitis was due to genuine lack of knowledge and awareness of the subjects being covered and misapprehension of interviews given by DRDO and the Armed Forces.

I have come to the conclusion while that may be partly true, there is a delibarate movement to denigrate and put down local R&D and production efforts both in the reporting public and some segments of the retired and serving officer class. Lack of knowledge and awareness cant explain the repeated self goals to prevent the operationalization of locally developed goods. The military folks work by coming up with unrealistic specs and testing objectives for local goods and hardly any for imported stuff. If the local goods meet the specs then the specs are revised upwards to ensure non adoption. The same folks retire and carry on a media campaign by joining the reproting public.


I want to follow the Goldfinger rule- "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence and thrice is enemy action"

I thnk this thread will serve better if instead of just categorizing the reporting as DDM or lifafa or agenda.

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Postby SaiK » 28 Feb 2008 22:13

It could be that mental thing in the reporters mind.. see all these ddmies want is to present reports copying pirangi ishtyle.. while doing this for decades, gotten into the habit that desi stuffs are worth only ill-reporting., cause desi stuffs lacks presentation data. no shirts, pants, just dhoties and half nake fakirs doing things that sends the world information about SLBM or missile systems. For that, one needs to be in advanced presentation state that defines the advancement of social and cultural psychs rather technology or science behind it.

I had these arguments over and over.. many desis have the ddmite syndrome that speaks volume about presentation and ishtyle amrika jaisa. all stuff desh is cr@p coz lacks ishtyle.

Can't protray any better than they can now. It needs a newer breed of desh bakts, and from the premier institutions to take leadership roles in the news information business. One such company is enough that the market for these ddmites would go kaaput!.

Perhaps.. its ok.. since, we need these ddmites to support a deceptive stealth mode of operations to exactly what happens behind. Its a blessing in disguise for everything that goes correct.. but a bad idea to rely on since there are certain programs that we all need to know the truth.

Bashing the ddmites at any given chance should not be left in "chalta hai" mode. just do it to them.

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Postby KarthikSan » 28 Feb 2008 22:17

CNN-IBN: Army's secret- India still has chemical weapons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y-oSOGsXlY

Watch this and you'll know what I mean about Vishal Thapar. The way he puts emphasis on certain words is quite funny and I have seen it with other TV reporters too.

On a more serious note, what the heck is he talking about ? Chemical weapons?

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Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2008 23:03

India signed the CWC treaty in 1996 as a chemical wepaons power. There is a timetable to get them destroyed. I think the guy is playing with facts to imply its a dirty secret. Its quite open to all those who signed the CWC.

BTW some of those were stocks from the British days and were left behind in old depots.

Behind every psy-ops there will be some core truth so that folks cant outright deny it. But the psy-ops takes a known fact and implies something else to suit the reporter's self image.

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The DDM, again...

Postby kaangeya » 04 Mar 2008 08:47

The DDM is amusing. One refrain concerns the LCA and other indigenous developments, that they are behind schedule, the DRDO is incompetent, etc. If this is refuted the likes of Ajay Shukla begin to hold forth clamouring that India shd not buy the SAAB/Eurofighter etc., because the IAF does not have a "network centric infrastructure" or some such thing and that we shd import the M2000 in large numbers! Amazing isn't it how thse dorks manage to display their ignorance proudly every time! :shock:

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Postby gopal.suri » 04 Mar 2008 09:07

This is to do with one our official DDM sources. Funnily its on the recieving end. Not sure where to post it... admins can remove if they want.

ONGC rejects CAG observations

Flagship explorer Oil and Natural Gas Corporation has drilled several holes in CAG’s recent observations, first reported by TOI, that ONGC was "frittering away huge sums in unfruitful expenditure" stemming from poor planning, lack of foresight and co-ordination in decision-making and penalties arising from failure to drill the number of wells promised to the government because it did not properly monitor progress of work.

In a letter to the oil ministry, ONGC has said exploration is a high-risk business where "inputs are deterministic and the outputs are probabilistic". Deepwater exploration is riskier and more capital-intensive with high uncertainty on core gains. Despite this, "in 2003 ONGC forayed into the uncharted territory and was also successful in making significant discoveries...The fact that ONGC drilled 41 deepwater locations against the approved 10th Plan target of 37 wells during the said period is an attestation of its efficiency."

On surrender of blocks, it said after drilling four wells in NELP-II acreages in western offshore, the firm felt the prospectivity of the tested geographical structures was poor and the prospects identified in the other western offshore acreages that remained to be drilled were also similar in nature. "ONGC took technically sound and economically beneficial decision of relinquishing the five blocks of western offshore with attendant penalties (Rs 124 crore as stated by CAG) for the unfulfilled work programme. To continue under these circumstances would have...exposed the decisions to indefensible risk and financial loss."

On deepwater wells, it said at the beginning of the 10th Plan, ONGC had 10 nomination and 9 NELP acreages with a cumulative programme of 19 wells under NELP and 11 wells under nomination. Hence, planning of 37 wells can’t be considered as inadequate. The perceived inadequacy is with a presumption that ONGC would continue to fulfill its commitments of subsequent phase II and phase III commitments in case of discoveries. Since during the first six months, there were no major discoveries the option of hiring, the additional rigs was not exercised.

ONGC also said that prioritisation of the prospects to be drilled in any given acreage is based on play perception and it is in this alone which decides the drilling programme. Besides, with the shift of focus to east coast, new discoveries resulted leading to new play fairways and generated new prospects. Thus, a need was felt for accelerating the tempo of exploration. A dialogue was initiated with the existing contractors to continue operation beyond the contract period.

ONGC said it also needed to emphasize that with the day rates quoted (122.64% higher on ongoing contract rig operating day rate and 89.62% higher on ongoing contract effective daily rate), diligence was called for in view of the hike with respect to ongoing rates.

It said it was unfortunate that the contractor refused to extend validity of offer besides the issue of pre-commitment, rig availability and an extraneous requirement led to the rig contract not being followed up. Diversion of deep water rig to shallow waters didn’t occur and it was only the locations in the nomination acreages varied in bathymetry between 150 m and 400 m.

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CAG reports?

Postby kaangeya » 04 Mar 2008 09:32

Have forgotten the reports on IAF pilot training and air crashes?

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Postby KarthikSan » 05 Mar 2008 10:52

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/c ... exclusives



Why India Talked Up a U.S. Carrier Deal

The idea of taking over the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk may have been a bluff to get a better deal on Russia's Admiral Gorshkov. If so, it didn't fly

by Nandini Lakshman

The controversy over India's purchase of a globally capable aircraft carrier is finally laid to rest. Last week, when U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates was in New Delhi, the defense community in India was abuzz with rumors that India would be purchasing the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk (BusinessWeek.com, 2/26/08), which is slated for decommissioning this year. The Bush Administration tried to shoot down the speculation, growing across the blogosphere in both India and the U.S., that the Americans were preparing to take the unprecedented move of sending an aircraft carrier to another country's navy. "The Navy has no plans of transferring the Kitty Hawk to India," said Lt. Col. Clay Doss, a U.S. Navy spokesperson in Washington. Still, Indian defense analysts insisted the two governments were indeed considering a deal. ............

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Postby shiv » 06 Mar 2008 06:44

From the Singapore airshow
http://www.drdo.com/dpi/singapore_airsh ... apore1.pdf
"Successful firing of a close Tomcat missile from Tejas has been accomplished at INS Hansa Goa
:shock:

From the same source, re Nishant
Some of the technical specifications include:
Length: 4.63cm
Span 6.64 m

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Postby shiv » 06 Mar 2008 06:51

Without consulting anyone - I have changed the name of the thread from "tracking the DDM" to "Tracking Errors in Defence reporting"

I feel that the meaning of the thread should be obvious to a casual visitor as well as to BRF regulars.

PS - I nearly mistyped the name as "Tracking Aroors in defence Reporting" :lol:

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Postby Gerard » 23 Mar 2008 18:13

India Test Fires Nuclear-Capable, Surface-to-Air Missile
By Debarati Roy

March 23 (Bloomberg) -- India tested a surface-to-air, nuclear-capable missile from a range off the coast in the eastern state of Orissa.

Agni-1 was fired from a mobile launcher at 10:15 a.m. local time today

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Postby Gerard » 27 Mar 2008 02:27

India tests 'Agni-U' missile
The two-stage Agni incorporates a slightly modified Augmented Satellite Launch Vehicle (ASLV) design in its second stage.

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Postby Rampy » 27 Mar 2008 22:31

Gerard wrote:India Test Fires Nuclear-Capable, Surface-to-Air Missile
By Debarati Roy

March 23 (Bloomberg) -- India tested a surface-to-air, nuclear-capable missile from a range off the coast in the eastern state of Orissa.

Agni-1 was fired from a mobile launcher at 10:15 a.m. local time today


Now bloomberg is also struck by DDM :lol: [/b]

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Postby jamwal » 28 Mar 2008 13:26

Arror's profile on orkut

http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=15761835400695585771
Hope am not breaking any rules

Gerard
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Postby Gerard » 10 Apr 2008 16:05


SaiK
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Postby SaiK » 10 Apr 2008 17:47

You ve to discount Arrors and O.Errors since even the bluffs and counter bluffs are firangly funded. Russkies are not that easy to let India get off their hooks. They have a ton of blacks to make arrors happen, to benefit them finally.

Didn't CIA invent the mind games with news papers and media channels? and Argumentative minds gets done easily.

uddu
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Postby uddu » 25 Apr 2008 10:46

Making of a DDM :D

Thaindian News

Bids invited for surface-to-air missile

New Delhi, April 24 (IANS) The Indian defence ministry Thursday invited bids for purchasing the quick reaction.

surface-to-air missile (QRSAM) under a multi-billion project, an official said Thursday. “The RFPs (request for proposal) for the short-range missiles were issued yesterday (Wednesday),â€

uddu
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Postby uddu » 25 Apr 2008 10:53

A similar one from the above source.

Cut and paste onlee

India looks forward to induct nuclear capable Akash missile in IAF
Link

Which enemy pilot will dare cross into India for the fear of being nuked. :lol:

uddu
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Postby uddu » 25 Apr 2008 11:04

Filled with Psyops but still
Indigenous battle tank fails winter trials: army

Link

New Delhi, April 16 (IANS) An indigenous main battle tank (MBT) that has been in the development for nearly 36 years has failed to deliver at the just-concluded winter trials, the Indian Army has told a key parliamentary panel. “We have just carried out the trial in winter. The tank performed very poorly. There have been four engine failures so far,â€

Aditya_V
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Postby Aditya_V » 08 May 2008 15:24

Anther Brilliant piece of reporting from BBC

Pakistan tests ballistic missile http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7389289.stm

P.S- Does a person have to be exceptionally Dumb to work in the Media

derkonig
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Postby derkonig » 08 May 2008 17:54

Well, yesterday, the TimesNow reporter, covering the AIII test, mentioned the Agni III as capable of carrying a nuclear "missile".
Equally horrible was the AIII animation which looked more like our GSLV than anything else. The cool part however was that the animation showed the mijjile head towards lizard land, but just before it got too obvious as where in Hanland, it was headed, they would cut off the animation...wink wink nudge nudge

viktor
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Postby viktor » 09 May 2008 15:06

‘Social networking’ a threat to defence?

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1162741

Read the article. And then read the blog I have written about it.

http://comp-const.blogspot.com/

Feedback appreciated.

shiv
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Postby shiv » 17 May 2008 09:37

HariC wrote:Is there any particular reason that my post on the article from FI was deleted? I believe this thread is for irresponsible reporting - and the FI article certainly qualifies for it. The author J Chacko had made several irresponsible claims against the army leadership and it is unfair to let these statements go unanswered.


Yes

I am asking that you and Gopal Suri stop slugging at each other. That means this post will be deleted by me. Even if Gopal Suri is entirely wrong, your insistence on fighting with him puts you firmly in the category of thread disrupter along with Suri.

I am asking that you keep off this topic. Please consider this an admin warning and please take your disagreement with Gopal Suri offline.

Thanks

HariC
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Postby HariC » 17 May 2008 09:49

Shiv,

Contrary to what you think, the post was not for gopal suri or to start any flame war with him.

I made the post was to show the blatantly incorrect and false statements made by the frontier india team against the army top leadership. Whats wrong with pointing that out? Why is it okay for the frontier india site to slander and abuse the army leadership but not okay for me to point it out here?

If there was anything wrong in the post, i would expect the learned members to prove my statements wrong.

Why is it okay to bash ajai shukla, shiv arror, and other journos for the incorrect statements they make but not okay to say the same thing about the article from frontier india?

forget for one moment that the post was made by me and evaluate it on the content of the post . thats the only request i have.

gopal.suri
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Postby gopal.suri » 17 May 2008 17:34

Shiv,

I thank you for the right descision. My point is:

A general view about the DDM thread. I have the opportunity of going
to some field visits with chacko joseph of frontierindia.net . There
were many reporters. What I found was 60% were newbies. They are on
the start of their careers especially the PTI and UNI fellows I saw.
There were other journalists and they were very sincere people. I
found no malice with them of defence reporting. They struggle with
questions and try to get correct answers. These people have gone for
20 days training to be defence journos. They still cannot get the
technical points right. its not their fault, their bosses just pluck
them and put them on assignments. We generalise them in the thread and
we tarnish their image. BR has a goo capacity of influencing opinions.
Legally they might not be able to challenge, but, why are we
tarnishing their career? There is another point of view. Te people
like Pandit, Aroor etc have been rising in their careers despite what
we say about them on BR.

Now rationally thinking, what do we achieve? Now "Tracking Errors in
Defence reporting" is a fine heading, but, what goes inside it is
jeering and poking fun etc.

I have just put my views on this.

shiv
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Postby shiv » 17 May 2008 21:15

Gopal Suri - you have seen Hari C's post.

I appreciate your sentiment, but I cannot protect newbies from criticism on here. They are going to get slammed. On this occasion HariC's comments have been removed, but please recall that Frontier India will get slammed too.

If I may use an analogy, when have the media been kind to a hospital or medical system when a mistake has been made by the absence of a senior doctor, or by the inexperienced and ignorant work of a junior doctor? Does the junior doctor's friend get airtime or column inches in the press to ask the press why they are spoiling his career? Bad efence reporting could be affecting people's opinions and the careers of people in the armed forces couldn't it?

Why should ignorant newbie journalists get any slack? Rather than attacking Hari C - if you had made this explanatory post first time a lot of heat could have been avoided.

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Postby gopal.suri » 17 May 2008 21:53

Shiv,

How can news opinion be countered with BR poster opinion in this error thread? If you look at the heading of the thread, its to point out errors.

I was the first person to say "Chill with Ajai Shukla" if you can dig up those threads. Subsequently, there has been mixed reactions on Ajai Shukla and not just jeering and off late less of jerring at him.

Unfortunately or hospitals suffer from neglects too, are they not money making services? If you have taken your nearest and dearest to a hopital, you will know what I am talking about. Yes, they are understaffed, harrased etc. We take time criticising them too on various places, don't we?

Is it possible for you to pin point the bad reporting is not there in other areas too? Defence is no exception.

This thread is about correcting errors. Not fpr personal vendata or if your opinion deffrences from another, then you put it up there. Say if, a technical point or other factual point is incorrect, put it up here with the correct prospective. Did the offending poster gave a counter point from another source to point out the error in the FI article? No. he just posted it here because he had something against me. Why should some one innocent suffer because of some people cannot control their egos? It is not just me, check his insulting posts with others also. he drags discussion to personal attacks with other too. Please read the Arjun Tank also. So does he has the liscence to bulldoze anything he sees? We don't have right to defend ourselves? Should I suffer silently? I had first time asked him to come out with his own article which he thinks is perfect. Since then he has been running away from discussion. is it too much to ask him that if he feels other are wrong, that atleast tell us with proof what is right? if some one says that something is wrong then its only natural to ask what is right?

Why should someone slam Frontier India or any other media for errors. You remember, you had pointed out a technical mistake one of the stories and I had argued with you. then subsequently when you were proven right, I had asked for corrections in Frontier India too. So, why slam? Why can't we objectively put the prespective?

HariC
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Postby HariC » 20 May 2008 19:28

gopal.suri wrote:This thread is about correcting errors. Not fpr personal vendata or if your opinion deffrences from another, then you put it up there. Say if, a technical point or other factual point is incorrect, put it up here with the correct prospective. Did the offending poster gave a counter point from another source to point out the error in the FI article?


my main criticism of that article was on the basic point made by chacko that the "Army doesnt develop its own weapons inspite of having so many engineers".

It is common knowledge for anyone well versed with militarymatters that the army's corps of engineers are a combat arm and not an RnD set up. ditto with Corps of EME which is a support arm for the combat troops and not thier jobs with RnD work. If a defencemedia guy does not know this basic fact then he well and truly qualifies as DDM. And you coming in support of him, asking for a 'link to prove it' - is the heights.

You still want links - go to http://indianarmy.nic.in/arengrs1.htm and
http://indianarmy.nic.in/areme1.htm#Role%20of%20EME

If you want I can also suggest the books that you need to read up on regarding these two Corps.

gopal.suri wrote:No. he just posted it here because he had something against me. Why should some one innocent suffer because of some people cannot control their egos?


Dont flatter yourself. i dont need FI to 'push your buttons'. FI/ chacko screwed up in its article with wrong statements, i pointed out. your common refrain for every complaint seems to be 'go ask army'. dude I dont need to. I know enough.

gopal.suri wrote: I had first time asked him to come out with his own article which he thinks is perfect. Since then he has been running away from discussion. is it too much to ask him that if he feels other are wrong, that atleast tell us with proof what is right? if some one says that something is wrong then its only natural to ask what is right?


The logic of a perfect article defeats me - Do all newspaper readers get battered on their head by journos to 'come up with a perfect article' everytime the reader complains to the newspaper. boss, its not myjob to come up with a perfect article.

gopal.suri wrote:Why should someone slam Frontier India or any other media for errors.


its the journos chosen career to get into journalism. and they cant do their job properly, they right deserve all criticism. If they cant stand criticism on their writing - I have only one advice - dont write stuff that cannot withstadn criticism.

gopal.suri wrote:It is not just me, check his insulting posts with others also. he drags discussion to personal attacks with other too. Please read the Arjun Tank also. So does he has the liscence to bulldoze anything he sees? We don't have right to defend ourselves? Should I suffer silently?


Others can quite capable of defending themselves and their viewpoints. I never addressed you in the arjun thread - yet you decided to jump on one post which i made. You asked for it.

I can keep going on and on, but in line with admin instructions I am staying away. I made my points on the FI article for the record - I am done with this thread.

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Postby shiv » 20 May 2008 20:40

HariC - there is no point arguing with a man who does not take criticism kindly. Such people are best for newspapers - a one way medium where they do not have to face criticism. The demands for not bluffing are higher in a forum like this one.

There has to be a limit for pointless argument. In this case the pointless argument reflects on the quality of Frontier India and its sponsors. A medium or person who cannot see and gracefully face up to faults is destined to be laughed at after a stage. Each to his own.

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Postby gopal.suri » 20 May 2008 23:06

Go on feed your own ego's. :D With hariC, i reserve my right to reply to him, selectively. Since your ego is hurt too Shiv, you can join him too.

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Postby Rahul M » 20 May 2008 23:33

gopal, why are you hell-bent on derailing thread after thread ??

you do make good points sometimes, but what stops you from acknowledging a mistake when you made one ??

Your comments on the gloves issue in the pic thread were absolute trash.

Please cool down and think it over.

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Postby ramana » 22 May 2008 02:51

Gopal, So what do you want?


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