Tracking Errors in Defence reporting

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 15 Dec 2007 08:57

that Jag from livefist is a UK RAF one - No mistaking the overwing roundel!

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 15 Dec 2007 10:02

Not to beat a dead horse - the word may exist but it does not seem to mean what it is supposed to mean - i.e the tail assembly of an aircraft.

the first four pages of google results only show two links related to ac empennage.

better correct it.

gopal.suri · Post by **gopal.suri** » 15 Dec 2007 10:05

Krishnan,

I wonder which google you are usng.
The word exists in the aussie site, the french site if you dig further.

Jagan you are right. I'll get the word replaced.[/url]

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 15 Dec 2007 10:40

AoA!

Have u not seen the HUNDI writeup on the Air Marshal (Retd)'s book on LCA?

Very interesting indeed to compare the review posted here on the LCA thread, with the article in the HUNDI. DDM at its most stinking swamp shallowness.

gopal.suri · Post by **gopal.suri** » 15 Dec 2007 15:25

Ok, the manufacturer confirms it , it is "empennage" . Dr. Shiv, you are right.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Dec 2007 16:58

JCage
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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2007 Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Another money making venture by the MOD.. EADS, and several other firms worldwide havent been included.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F= ... &C=asiapac

Quote:
India Bid Request Questioned

By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI

NEW DELHI â€” Indiaâ€™s early December invitation to four foreign defense firms, asking for bids to supply 104 air defense systems worth an estimated $1.7 billion, has drawn questions from other firms that were not invited.
The invitation to replace aging Shilka systems for five air-defense regiments went to Rosoboronexport of Russia, Thales of France, Bumar of Poland and Samsung of South Korea. Bids are due March 5.
The invitation went out after the $100 million effort to upgrade 48 Shilkas by Israel Aerospace Industries and Indiaâ€™s Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL) missed deadlines and performance requirements, Indian Army sources said.
An executive of a Western defense company said the Indian Defence Ministry appears to be trying to get the Russian makers of the Tunguska air defense system to lower its earlier bid.
Defence Ministry sources here confirmed that India canceled a planned upgrade of its Tunguskas after a Russian bid came in higher than desired.
The invitation seeks 4,928 missiles, 1,722,600 shells, offsets worth 30 percent of the purchase price, and the transfer of related technology to BEL and the state-owned Ordnance Factories Board.
The military wants a self-propelled system, loadable on Indian trains, that can shoot on the move in all weather to protect its mechanized forces in plains and desert areas from aircraft, helicopters, UAVs, precision-guided munitions and cruise missiles.
It should be able to hit targets out to 6 kilometers with missiles and 4 kilometers with air defense guns. Its gun should be able to hit a target with or without the systemâ€™s fire-control radar.
The upgraded Shilkas will feature a solid-state radar and computers, electro-optical fire-control systems, a new engine and overhauled subsystems. The upgrade is expected to extend the life of the Shilka system by 15 years.
Army officials have told the Defence Ministry several times that its air defense is porous and needs advanced, foreign- built weapons immediately, said Mahindra Singh, a retired Army major general. Wink Ã¥

...does shri singh have a commercial interest in the issue? I wonder.
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shiv
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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2007 Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
JCage wrote:
Another money making venture by the MOD.. EADS, and several other firms worldwide havent been included.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F= ... &C=asiapac

...does shri singh have a commercial interest in the issue? I wonder.

Some retired forces officers are lapped up by arms exporting firms to lobby in just such a manner. I have met at least two such people whose interests are unlikely to be totally neutral in any arms purchase. If I have met two it means that there must be at least 2 thousand such people.
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gopal.suri
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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2007 Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
After 30 years in development, new Indian tank "unusable"

Indiaâ€™s Arjun main battle tank again has failed in field trials, and the Army told the Defence Ministry here that the tank cannot be used in combat.

After 30 years of development by Indiaâ€™s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the Arjun has not lived up to Army expectations, a service official said.

Field trials were ordered for five of the 124 Arjun tanks delivered last August by the state-owned Heavy Vehicles Factory in Avadi. The DRDO wanted the Arjun to be given the same consideration as the Russian-built T-90 tank to be the main battle tank for the Army.

The capabilities of the 58-ton Arjuns were to be pitted against those of the Armyâ€™s lighter, shorter and more maneuverable T-90s on the Mahajan range in the Rajasthan desert the first week of June. However, the Arjunâ€™s fire control system failed in general trials in May when they were moved from the factory to the Rajasthan range, the Army official said. The Army also found the tanks to have poor operational mobility.

Defence Ministry sources said the Arjun was considered a â€œdud tankâ€

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 25 Dec 2007 09:39

Now featuring, DDM Champion, Shri Praful Bidwai, with an article befitting his repute.

Praful Bidwai is a veteran Indian journalist and commentator.

He can be reached at praful@bol.net.in

Going ballistic

On December 6, India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) fired an interceptor to destroy a Prithvi missile launched five minutes earlier. In November 2006, the DRDO had used a modified Prithvi to intercept another Prithvi. It boasts that it can develop a fully indigenous BMD shield in three years.

These claims must be taken with a pinch of salt â€” and not just because Israeli radars were used in the latest test. The DRDO's record inspires no confidence. All its major projects, including the Main Battle Tank, Light Combat Aircraft, and Advanced Technology Vessel (nuclear-powered submarine) have failed in some measure or other â€” sinking thousands of crores. Its missile programme too has run into serious difficulties.

However, it's even more important to recognise that BMD is strategically dubious, destabilising and harmful to regional security. Indian Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee admitted as much in October when he ruled out joining the US-led BMD programme. The DRDO is working at odds with this.

India must not waste scarce resources on BMD. Nor should Pakistan get lured into this sordid business. We already spend too much on the military in relation to health, education and social security. The result is our falling Human Development Index ranks. BMD will further distort South Asian priorities â€” without producing security. The world must put an end to these fancy â€” and dangerous â€” programmes before they get the better of it.

gopal.suri · Post by **gopal.suri** » 27 Dec 2007 09:10

This is not DDM, some names we can look for future.

JCage,

WRT Mahendra Singh issue. One key personality here in such deals. He is the Director General of CII Defence:

http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessline/ ... 0255ku.htm

I shall come to that later but more baffling is the appointment of a one-man committee , headed by Lt Gen S. S. Mehta. The Deputy Chief of Army Staff was made solely responsible for selecting the tanks and giving his assessment report on field trials. Now he has been appointed chairman.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010331/main2.htm

[quote] a senior officer of the force said that there was nothing fishy about the procurement of laser-guided Krasnopol shells or T-90 S tanks, which, â€œin factâ€

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 09 Jan 2008 15:18

Several DDMs produced spiced up headlines to sell their stuff. Some of those joining the distinguished list are.

India closes down missile programme

India scraps integrated guided missile programme

--------------------------------------------------

Obviously, this time the DDM was so sensationalist that MoD had to publish an official DDM corrective clarification.

IGMDP â€“ A CLARIFICATION
http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=34457

It has been reported in a section of the media today that â€œIntegrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP) as a Strategic Programme stands Scrappedâ€

v khaitan · Post by **v khaitan** » 10 Jan 2008 10:56

Should PDM also included in this thread ?
PDM = pakistani ......

an example

India has developed Akash with the secret transfer of US technology to India which is applicable to missile defence, particularly the Arrow ATBM, and Phalcon airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 10 Jan 2008 11:36

Hello V Khaitan,

Please to be posting the PDM in the P-e-N-I-S thread. I wanted to have a D-D-M only focus. Thanks.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 11 Jan 2008 07:03

IAF to get 40 more Hawk AJTs

Ravi Sharma
http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/11/stories ... 161400.htm

In the Hawk article it's necessary to drag the IJT in.

While HAL will benefit from the additional order, it is also an indication that the Air Force is apprehensive over the long delay in the delivery of the HAL designed and developed intermediate jet trainer (IJT), the Hindustan Jet Trainer (HJT) -36. The HJT-36 which is expected to become the backbone of the Air Forceâ€™s pilot training programme will replace the aging workhorse, the Kiran HJT-16. But HAL, which received an order for 12 aircraft, has been unable to meet even revised delivery schedules.

How much is this long delay, 20 years, 10 years, 5 years, 1 year.
Has he talked to HAL management and discussed with them the progress of HJT-36 before writing the last sentence.

karkera · Post by **karkera** » 15 Jan 2008 22:33

How DRDO failed India's military
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jan/15guest.htm

The difference between India's failure against Pakistan's success in their respective missile programmes is based on the purist mindset of the Defence Research and Development Organisation to develop indigenously all complex weapon platforms and Islamabad's intelligent alliance with China and the approach to achieve its goals 'by any means, fair or foul'! While Pakistan was pragmatic in its approach, India was merely pompous.
Therefore, it should not come as a surprise that India's Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme has been finally shelved.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 15 Jan 2008 23:24

karkera wrote:How DRDO failed India's military
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jan/15guest.htm

The difference between India's failure against Pakistan's success in their respective missile programmes is based on the purist mindset of the Defence Research and Development Organisation to develop indigenously all complex weapon platforms and Islamabad's intelligent alliance with China and the approach to achieve its goals 'by any means, fair or foul'! While Pakistan was pragmatic in its approach, India was merely pompous.
Therefore, it should not come as a surprise that India's Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme has been finally shelved.

Oh dear, shouldn't these dorks reporting on military matters atleast have a minimum standard of intelligence and awareness?

The Pakistani R&D program was geared towards indigenousing paint production. On the other hand, DRDO actually had to design missiles.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 16 Jan 2008 01:21

Prasant wrote:
karkera wrote:How DRDO failed India's military
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jan/15guest.htm

Oh dear, shouldn't these dorks reporting on military matters atleast have a minimum standard of intelligence and awareness?

The Pakistani R&D program was geared towards indigenousing paint production. On the other hand, DRDO actually had to design missiles.

It was a beautiful day, nice morning, crisp air and I felt great.

I fire up BRF, hoping to read some nice info and the occassional joke. Now my blood boils and I feel like smashing someone's skull in. After my anger has dissipated, I realized something. I am an idiot. So are the rest of the BRFites. We sit on our high horses, know all the reasons behind articles like these, know the inaccuracies and lies they perpetuate and know who the beneficiaries are. We post on BRF, vent our feelings and go home. While 99% of the rest of the desis read websites like Rediff and papers like TOI, make up opinions of our capabilities and approach and ultimately have influence on the policy. Policy influence by people expose to only such articles mean one and only thing. Phoren maal and GUBO to russie, Unkil, UK, France whoever. The solution is simple, we have to get off of our high horse, kick the door down and get into Mainstream media.

A task to the gurus. Call yourself "Editor of BR Articles" or whatever, exercise your contact with retired armed forces officals, get articles published in the mainstream media and frontally assault such idiocy. In the DRDO context highlight

(1) The technology denial regime: We had no choice but be self sufficient. Explain what MTCR is and ITARS is. Also explain why it did not impact pakistanis or chinis whereas it impacted us. Now what is the logical option other than doing our own R&D ?

(2) Highlight Risks inherent in any R&D: The "R" in "R&D" stands for "Risk". Without Risk, there is no research. Else we better follow our pureland brothers in doing their "R" - "Repainting". Highlight how unkil, even with its huge capital and technological base drew a naught with Comanche, Osprey, Future combat systems,even upto initial versions of the M16 rifle jamming.

(3) The reluctance of armed forces to change and the vested interests: Case in point accepting T90 even though its FCS had defects, whereas no slack was cut for Arjun. When arjun has been perfected with modern concepts of a MBT with adequate crew protection, IA is fighting wars of the 60s, refuses to change doctrines and complaining about the weight ! After the arjun was perfected, why is there no comparative trials ? Is it because of the better Pk of the arjun and better armor on the arjun, whereby it can kill T90 from far greater distance even before T90 can have a shot ?

(4) The reluctance of armed forces to be a partner and the fascination with Phoren maal: The GSQR of the arjun has been changed umpteen times. Whereas we agree to be "proving grounds" for projects like the MKI, we absolutely positively refuse to put up with even a 1% change in capabilities of our own indegenous projects with an expectation that this will change over time. In this sense, the armed forces do not look at the arms industry with a long term view of building capability and capacity, but view themselves solely as consumers.

(5) Strategic limitations and strings attached to phoren maal: Rumors about that pureland neighbors should take unkil's permission to fly the F16s outside their airspace. It has been published in public domain that there is a count, every 6 months, of the night vision equipment by unkil. Add to it, our own vulnerabilities ranging from manipulation and bribery (bofors) to arm-twisting (groshov). Buying phoren maal is not like buying phoren made peanuts, but comes with strings attached. From bribery in the procurement process to arm twisting in foreign policy.

(5) The true achievements of DRDO: When compared to say, even the private sector. It has taken 60 years after independence for an Indian automaker to produce a truly innovative car. DRDO can shoot a missile down with a missile after only 10 years of trying. Add to that the successes in the Agni series (whose testing doesnt have technological limitations, but percieved political compulsions), the arjun tank and other projects, big and small.

(6) Strength respects strength: What is the incentive for foreign collaborators to collaborate with us ? Why would they concievably put their trade secrets at risk, and erode profits by agreeing to work with us ? Yes MBDA wants to make a missile with us. Why ? It is because, non-collaboration now, means competition with us tomorrow. Because we will flood the market with Astras and Akashes and would start eating their lunch in a decade. Foreign collaboration is touted as a panacea. Think from it from the other end - they collaborate with us, because DRDO is threatening them with competition.

(7) Future is hopeful: Can all this mess be fixed ? Well yes. Take the navy model of development. If we look at the writings of admirals of yesteryears, they always wanted to be a ship builder's navy and not a ship buyer's navy. That meant invenstment and partnering with indegenous firms. Waiting for their capabilities to mature and co-developing products with a non-adversarial mode. Applying this principle to the army and the air-force, the army would be a tank (missile, small arms, radar, artillery) builder's army and not a buyer's army. Is that the view the armed forces have ?

We should blanket the public domain and public consciousness with well thought out, logical, non-sensationalist, calm articles like these in the mainstream newspapers so if every ram, dishkit and hari googles for "arjun" he hits "Lahat firing capability and T90s afraid for a toe to toe" rather than "DRDO is a cash guzzling cow and produced an overweight tank instead of a 100kg, 500mph ferrari"

Till then, we should resolve never to complain about DDM. Get rid of the DDM tracking thread. No venting. If we cant fix it, we shouldnt complain. Peace.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 17 Jan 2008 21:23

NRao wrote:Vinay Pandey :: F-16 maker Lockheed mounts an India campaign

I am glad someone clarified this for me. I was always confused, specially since I did not see a 17 some place:

Incidentally, the F-18 Super Hornet, built by Boeing, is not to be mistaken for an upgraded version of the F-16.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 18 Jan 2008 14:34

From the same link:

Meanwhile, the "India campaign" rolls on with even Jawaharlal Nehru and Indira Gandhi being roped in. Lockheed martin executives have dug up a forgotten piece of history to emphasize the ties between the two countries. Fourty-five years ago, during the Chinese aggression, Prime Minister Nehru called up President Kennedy, who sent a fleet of Hercules aircraft to India. These aircraft stayed in India for nine months and carried troops and cargo to inaccessible areas in the Himalayas. The Herck also had two distinguished passengers â€” Nehru and daughter Indira.

And what about the time when President Nixon sent a fleet of warships?

Rudranathh · Post by **Rudranathh** » 21 Jan 2008 09:17

ISRO to launch Israeli satellite

Dumb NDTV shows this photo of an missile launch in an satellite launch report.

Someone please email these ndtv morons and ask them to go and read their higher secondary school science books.

DDM cant even differentiate a satellite launch and a missile launch.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 23 Jan 2008 12:11

Deccan Herald printed Antrix corporation as "Anthrax" Corporation.

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 23 Jan 2008 12:38

^
freudin slip by DDM?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jan 2008 10:21

aroor has a orkut presence. I read some really juicy details in a now
closed blog that was shutdown by legal pressure for all the details on personal scandals people put there.

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Jan 2008 10:49

I know some of BRF members are in his friends list.

Btw what is this BRF community on Orkut I cant find any of our big wigs over there except for one or two.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 24 Jan 2008 13:17

Lol.. France to Discuss upgrade of MIG-2000 planes.

http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=1205525

Sarkozy is expected to raise the matter during the talks, as well as other defence contracts, including proposed upgrading of the ageing fleet of MiG 2000 of the Indian Air Force and supply of six more conventional submarines to the Indian Navy.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2008 13:27

^^
Whats DDM in there??

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Jan 2008 14:23

Sanku,
Errr...the MiG-2000??
Next is the Mirage-21??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jan 2008 14:33

all I can say is there maybe reason for certain ddm's unhappiness unless they are getting the same thing elsewhere.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2008 14:47

sum wrote:Sanku,
Errr...the MiG-2000??
Next is the Mirage-21??

I read the piece many times analyzing it for DDM didnt think they would fall so low...

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 24 Jan 2008 15:09

Mirage 30 MKI

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Jan 2008 15:37

Mirage 30 MKI

Am waiting for this.....we may hear this once the upgrades for the Mirage/Mig-2000 get started....

Rudranathh · Post by **Rudranathh** » 24 Jan 2008 21:03

Singha wrote:aroor has a orkut presence. I read some really juicy details in a now closed blog that was shutdown by legal pressure for all the details on personal scandals people put there.

I hope you have saved some of the stuff related to arror to your hard disk and some of that stuff may somehow get mysteriously uploaded to rapidshare for all the aroor fans to view.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 29 Jan 2008 17:19

Pakistan starts domestic production of JF-17 fighter

Siva Govindasamy

Some analysts believe India's displeasure could damage the chances of Russia's Sukhoi Su-35 winning its competition for 126 medium multirole combat aircraft, where it faces competition from the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 and Saab Gripen.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 29 Jan 2008 19:20

Sanku wrote:^^
Whats DDM in there??

Nothing. It must have been Mig-2000 MKI christened Tejas by Smt. Manmohan singh

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 29 Jan 2008 19:25

Pundits of decoupling now eat crow

INDIA DIARY
By COOMI KAPOOR

Comical

Link

The stock market has been taught a bitter lesson â€“ that there is no way of insulating India(:roll:) from global shocks.

THE myth that the Indian economy?(:roll:) can be decoupled from the global markets lay shattered last week in the wake of a weeklong carnage on the share markets.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 29 Jan 2008 19:29

China Funds Lose 7.8 Trillion Won
The decoupling theory is based on the idea that the economic growth drive in emerging countries such as China and India will be strong enough to offset a recession in the U.S. economy

Why drag India here. The Chinese sure is going to face the biggest problem especially with the manufacturing Industry.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Feb 2008 17:46

self explanatory
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 787954.cms

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 18 Feb 2008 17:51

shiv wrote:self explanatory
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 787954.cms

Height of DDM. Now we know what to expect from these media men.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 18 Feb 2008 18:02

It is not only about the big manufacturers like Lock Heed Martin, Boeing or DSCN, but Indian Manufacturers are also showcasing their hardware.

Well couldn't find those companies...pointed this out in the comments section, which was offcourse not publised.

Defence Expo: Indian firms seek buyers

I also couldn't understand the relationship b/w the reports headline and body!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Feb 2008 20:07

The biggest source of DDM itis is PTI. Its defense correspondents are pathetic even when fed lifafas and given exclusive access. The sad thing is due to their agreements with local newspapers their stories are spread to every nook and crany of India.

Need to find out how to improve the quality of the news reporting from PTI. The Aroors/Tharoors have their own agendas and linkages. So might be difficult to reform.

However Ajai Shukla has shown he can see the light. So there is hope for some of them.

Educating PTI is a must to stop the misinformation.

Can someone dig up th echain of command at PTI and their contacts?

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 18 Feb 2008 20:22

ramana wrote: Can someone dig up th echain of command at PTI and their contacts?

Here is the link to their editorial chain,

PTI

PTI is basically owned by all the major news organization, just look at the board of directors.

Board of Directors

Mr.N.Ravi, The Hindu Chairman

Prof. E.V. Chitnis, Pune, Vice-Chairman

Mr. R.Lakshmipathy, Dinamalar

Mr. Vineet Kumar Jain, Bennet, Coleman & Co. Ltd.

Mr Vijay Kumar Chopra,Hind Samachar Group of Newspapers

Mr Aveek Kumar Sarkar,Ananda Bazar Patrika

Mr Pravinchandra V. Gandhi,Saurashtra Trust

Mr M.P. Veerendrakumar,The Mathrubhumi Ptg & Pbg Co Ltd.

Mr Philip Mathew, Malayala Manorama

Mr.K.N.Shanth Kumar, Deccan Herald

Mr.Mahendra Mohan Gupta, Jagran

Mr Shekhar Gupta, Indian Express Newspapers

Mr.Hormusji N.Cama, Bombay Samachar

Justice S.P.Bharucha, (retd.) Mumbai

Mr.Fali Nariman, New Delhi

What irks me the most is, these editors don't even bother to do cursory check on the garbage being reported. With internet it won't take more than an hour to get the names of companies right. In a news report I posted in Indian R&D thread, a reporter referred to a company called Holicon (OFB collaborator for Skyshield), there is no such company and the actual name is Oerlikon! 2 minutes on Google on Skyshield would have revealed it.

Only conclusion I can draw is, it has become too easy to get a job in India and there is absolutely no accountability. Kids are being pulled from the college campus and made correspondents!

Rudranathh · Post by **Rudranathh** » 18 Feb 2008 20:45

ramana wrote:However Ajai Shukla has shown he can see the light. So there is hope for some of them.

The only reason Ajai changed is after he started taking a critical look at the DRDO products rather than just repeating what other so-called news reporters were reporting. His army background also helped here since he knew that fighting wars does not mean buying some eye candy product but an ruggedised product which can be manufactured, repaired and updated in the country without any foreign help if an war breaks out.

Regarding shiv aroor and his defence reporting well the less said the better. You have to watch Headline Today channel to understand what he is really made of. One day he is reporting on arjun and the next day he is reporting on some new tech toy and the next day he is reporting on pakiland.

His analysis is very shallow on any subject he reports on. You give him an glossy brochure and some catchy lines on an product and the next day you will find an 30 minute 'review' by him of that product on the channel.

Shiv arror is an Jack of all trades but master of none.

Bharat Rakshak

Tracking Errors in Defence reporting

How DRDO failed India's military

Re: How DRDO failed India's military

Re: How DRDO failed India's military