India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

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shiv
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 05 Mar 2011 20:57

In the old days "Army aviation" meant a single engine aircraft called an "AOP" - an Air Observation Post in which the pilot (and maybe an observer) would observe the effect of artillery and advise corrections to make sure a target is hit. UAVs to do that would be more stealthy and cheaper and risk no pilot. All that is needed is to see how far away from the target shells are falling, make the correction and "boom". If that misses - make a further correction

An AOP was used to guide IAF pilots in Longewala and the pilot's story is unique and as heroic as anything else about that event.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Gaur » 05 Mar 2011 21:41

Aditya_V wrote:One thing Is possible, UAV can can light up a target with Laser beam and a smart shell, something like Krasponal Shell can use to hit a target. Like SF forces lighting up targets for Aircraft.

It may interest you to know that it is generally not the job of SF personnel to light up targets for Arty fire. At least this is not the general case in IA. An OP (observation post) Officer from Arty along with 3 jawans comprise of a team which infiltrate silently behind enemy lines to do this job. This was exactly the case in Kargil too. Even though there was no designating to be done (seeing as Krasnopol was useless in high altitude), it was the OP Officer and his team which used to silently go as close to Pakistani positions as possible and advised corrections to the arty fire. Sadly, we lost too many brave men because of that. Hopefully that will end as more UAVs get inducted in numbers.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Prem Kumar » 06 Mar 2011 02:30

To add to what Shiv & Gaur said: the simple, effective use-case is to broadcast the video feed from a UAV (that it captures via an EO sensor) to the ground controller, who can re-direct artillery fire. Then you can get more complex scenarios - the UAV can have a laser-range finder, compare its own location (GPS) & add the range information and pass the exact co-ordinates of the target to the artillery unit. However, I dont know if our artillery is capable of taking a set of co-ordinates as input, feed into some sort of a fire control computer and target effectively (I would think this should be possible because I dont see how else WLRs can feed data for counter battery fire).

Or maybe a combination of both the above techniques: get the coordinates to get close enough to the target. Then get real time feedback from an EO sensor and make corrections.

Finally we get the Unkil-style TFTA Excalibur rounds, which are guided artillery shells which cost an arm and a leg (for both us and the enemy)

Shiv: can you share any online material about the AOP story in Longewala?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Gaur » 06 Mar 2011 03:10

Prem Kumar wrote:<snip> However, I dont know if our artillery is capable of taking a set of co-ordinates as input, feed into some sort of a fire control computer and target effectively (I would think this should be possible because I dont see how else WLRs can feed data for counter battery fire).<snip>


You can give relative co-ordinates to FCS. At least the current 155 mm are capable of this but I don't know about the others. Of course, this becomes pretty useless in high altitudes. Arty prepares and gives out charts for different locations but at the end of the day real time corrections are nearly always required at high altitudes.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby SaiK » 06 Mar 2011 05:50

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/technology/article1512935.ece and radar processing applications.. lot of electronic devices are made in India, the chips are built in foreign countries, with specifications set by international foundries. “There is no guarantee that these systems perform the required functions. It is extremely important that we start looking at strengthening our indigenous manufacturing capabilities and develop our own state-of-the-art hardware designs


What is the status of VLSI in DRDO labs?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 06 Mar 2011 06:40

Prem Kumar wrote:
Shiv: can you share any online material about the AOP story in Longewala?


Here you go

Perhaps one of the least known and least talked about stories from Longewala is that of Major Atma Singh - a daring AOP pilot who actually guided the Hunters to their targets. His plane was crippled and he landed right in the middle of the battle zone in Longewala. This is a terrific story - read it all from these pages - scanned from Vayu

The Krishak, btw, was a HAL made AOP aircraft.

1st page
Image

2nd page
Image

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby sum » 07 Mar 2011 09:19

Not sure where else to put this:
HAL officer gets a cold handshake

D Shivamurthy, Director (Finance) of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), whose retirement was due in 2016, was told that ''his services are no more required,'' by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) in a letter on Thursday last week.

While speculation in HAL is rife about the reasons behind the letter, Shivamurthy’s comments during Aero India 2011 on HAL going in for an initial public offer (IPO) may have done him in. The Centre apparently took the comments seriously. The HAL employees’ union too had criticised the comments and even staged dharnas.

Sources in HAL told Deccan Herald that minutes after Shivamurthy received the MoD letter, “HR officials immediately set up a committee and his office was locked within no time.” Shivamurthy, they said, even had to go back home in an autorickshaw.

Although HAL is tightlipped about the reasons why such high drama preceded Shivamurthy’s exit last week and maintains that it was a simple case of the MoD not obliging to his application for an extension, the general practice in State-run firms is that offices of directors are not seized unless the incumbent is found guilty of a serious misdemeanour.

Shivamurthy was appointed Director (Finance) in October 2005 and his term as director ended in October last year, following which he had applied for an extension. Speaking to Deccan Herald, HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak said: “Do not ask me any questions on this matter. Please talk to the MoD.” Shivamurthy disconnected the call soon after he learnt it was from this newspaper.


On why his office was seized and he left the campus in a hurry, Rao said: “The office was seized because he had to handover the charge and given that there is nobody to take charge, we had to lock his office until somebody is chosen for the position in order to avoid problems of things being misplaced among other things.”

It is noteworthy that Shivamurthy’s confirmation as the Director (Finance) had also taken a very long time. “Normally, it takes only six months to a year.” Sources point out that there had been several internal problems and also that Shivamurthy did not share a healthy relationship with former Chairman Ashok Baweja.

The scene seems more out of a IT-vity firm ( where such hire and fire within 1-2 hours is normal) than a PSU!!

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby krishnan » 07 Mar 2011 11:47

sum wrote:The scene seems more out of a IT-vity firm ( where such hire and fire within 1-2 hours is normal) than a PSU!!


Well if you arent in good books of the union , you will end up in this situation even if its PSU

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Craig Alpert » 08 Mar 2011 05:30

Govt Planning to Invest Rs 5,300 Cr in DRDO Projects
Government is planning to invest Rs 5,300 crore in Defence Research and Development Organisation projects for upgrading existing facilities and setting up new ones for various programmes, Lok Sabha was informed today.

"The government proposes to make the following major infrastructure investment of Rs 5,300 crore for DRDO programmes over the next five years," Defence Minister A K Antony said in a written reply to a query in the House.

The projects include setting up a new Aeronautical Test Range for Rs 1,300 crore, Aerostat Test Range for Rs 500, Electronic Warfare test range for another Rs 500 crore, he added.

The Minister said the programmes and projects are likely to be completed in the next three to ten years period depending on various government clearances and other procedures. :?: :|

Meanwhile, answering another query, the Minister said the total value of products and technologies produced and developed by the premier defence research agency was around Rs 1,12,000 Crore.

DRDO has developed several indigenous defence equipment including the Indigenously-designed and developed missile systems, anti-ballistic missile shield, Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT), the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and the Airborne Early Warning and Control systems.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby SaiK » 08 Mar 2011 06:41

it would be nice if they could divert some money to high altitude kaveri engine test facility. We have tremendous growth potential for kaveri, replacing jaguar, mig series, lca, amca, mrca, and other a/cs for IAF with various variants. We can buy off the shelf certain air platforms from Russia or other countries, but establishing a setup similar to gromov institute, would be awesome.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Kailash » 08 Mar 2011 08:16

Craig Alpert wrote:Govt Planning to Invest Rs 5,300 Cr in DRDO Projects


No offense, but I think this is worth the the full list totaling upto 5300 :D

link

Programmes/Projects - Approximate Cost (Rupees in Crore)

Aeronautical Test Range - 1300
Foundry for Field Programmable Array (FPA) - 500
Foundry for Gallium Nitride - 500
Upgradation of Gallium Arsenide Foundry - 500
Upgradation of MEMS facility - 500
Aerostat Test Range - 500
EW Test Range - 500
Upgradation of Rail Track Rocket Sled - 500
Facility for testing of Gas Turbine Engine - 500


These programmes/projects are likely to be completed/materialized in three to ten years period depending on various Government clearances and other procedures.


SaiK, guess that last 500 cr should help the Kaveri...

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Suresh S » 08 Mar 2011 08:40

thanks shiv for the indian express article. As they say more things change more they are the same.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Baldev » 08 Mar 2011 08:53

CL-20 based lgbs will weigh 1/4 compared to lgbs with other explosives this means a typical lgb with cl-20 explosive weighing 125-150kg will have impact of 500kg lgb which has other explosive.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Prem Kumar » 08 Mar 2011 08:58

Thanks for sharing, Shiv. That was a wonderful read!!

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby nash » 08 Mar 2011 09:04

SaiK, guess that last 500 cr should help the Kaveri...


But the time line is 3-10 years .. i wish they completed this testing facility in next 3 years, so that snecma-GTRE made kaveri get tested in this facility and reduce the unwanted delay.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Kailash » 08 Mar 2011 10:07

^^^ I would rather watch the semiconductor related investments. It means that these GaN/GaAs/FPA technologies have been proven, the investment seems to be toward maturing/productionizing them. These are strategic materials with wide-spread use in defense.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 08 Mar 2011 10:35

I also like the second to last investment in the rocket sled upgrade.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Prasad » 08 Mar 2011 11:42

Rs 500 crore is about USD 100 million. Intels brand new fab in arizona costs about $7 bil. I wonder how much it would cost to setup a fab for semiconductors in india. Its a good investment.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Neela » 08 Mar 2011 19:42

Prasad wrote:Rs 500 crore is about USD 100 million. Intels brand new fab in arizona costs about $7 bil. I wonder how much it would cost to setup a fab for semiconductors in india. Its a good investment.


I think $100M is sufficient funds for the fab for the defence sector. The equipment for these fabs aren't as expensive as the ones Intel is building.

The difference is the critical dimension called "length" of the transistor: this is hugely different from GaN/GaAs and the CMOS transistors in INtel's processors.Although I do not work in the RF side, gokul search tells me that 0.5um is the typical length of the GaN/GaAs transistor. Intel's current processors are made with transistors 28nm in length.
To give an idea about an equivalent Intel process, this is very close to the one used to build 80486 processors when I was just about starting to shave everyday.

Rs.500 crore is enough to maintain a top of the line GaN/GaAs fab. In fact, I am glad that GoI has invested in this. Reasons being:
- If you go to Hsinchu City near Taipei, there are about 10 fabs that will be willing to get some orders to keep their old fabs running.
- IP protection. It is quite easy to etch the chips, read the logic based on the connections and rebuild the entire electrical circuit.


I really have my doubts regarding setting up a semiconductor manufacturing facilities in India on the scale that Intel or Taiwan has. Note that Taiwan is heavily reliant on this as part of its GDP
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economi ... symbol=TWD. 70% !. Imagine a natural calamity like an earhtquake. The country's finances will be in ruins for years.
It will not work as a business model as there is too many competitors from the east.

BUT:China is showing the way how tech independence can be achieved. Since early 2000, the Chinese government has pumped more than $10billion on these semiconductor projects and today they are less than maybe 5 years away from Intel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loongson
On April 20, 2010, USTC announced Loongson 3A based KD-60-1. The new supercomputer is a cluster of standard blade servers with a total of over 80 quad-core Loongson processors, providing theoretical peak performance of 1 TFLOPS and reduces power consumption by 56% compared to the KD-50-I system that has similar performance.[25][26]


You can argue both ways about this topic. Yes, homegrown processors and architectures does mean a lot more security and true independence from the West. But it comes at a price which might make you think very hard.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby A Sharma » 09 Mar 2011 00:51

Last edited by A Sharma on 09 Mar 2011 00:53, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Prasad » 09 Mar 2011 00:51

Yes of course. We're definitely not going to churn out thousands of the fastest and latest 21nm stuff that Intel is going to. And yes, we probably do not need to be getting 21nm or 32nm transistors. For our current defense needs even 0.25um might be top of the line. The costs of running a fab like that when the demand isnt on industrial lines will be extremely high. I wonder what kind of numbers they're looking at.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby suryag » 09 Mar 2011 01:11

^^^ concur space is not a premium when compared with the fetish for thinner in the consumer market. Heat dissipation is a problem as you go for architectures with lesser gate width. 150nm is a nice sweet spot, considering it has been around for a long time

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby animesharma » 09 Mar 2011 02:18

I second suryag sir's point. IMO 0.25um is sufficient for DRDO's present requirement(as much i can understand). Going deeper in submircron is a commercial necessity of Intel. DRDO's focus should be on design end and capability to fabricate.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Craig Alpert » 09 Mar 2011 06:44




Thanks for the links.. That is some Ambitious and Impressive capabilities that they are developing & finalizing...

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Indaruta » 09 Mar 2011 09:16

Data visualization of scientific prowess -The Strength of the Nations

http://wbpaley.com/brad/mapOfScience/na ... _50pct.jpg

Wonder where we stand here

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby vic » 09 Mar 2011 09:30

What is the budget of DRDO for 2011-12?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby chackojoseph » 09 Mar 2011 17:54

India produces 40 per cent of its defence supplies : Defence Minister

"In the past, we were producing only 30 per cent of our equipment. Now we are producing 40 per cent of platforms, equipment and ammunition of our total defence supply...In many areas, India is producing state-of-the-art weapons. We are improving but we have to go a long way. Do not expect miracles," he told the Rajya Sabha during Question H

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vipul » 11 Mar 2011 19:30

Cochin Shipyard to expand with Rs 500 crore investment.

The Public sector Cochin Shipyard Ltd is proposing to expand its existing capacity through a shiplift system with an investment of Rs 500 crore, a top official today said.

The new system is likely to come up at the northern end of the CSL estate and would be 120 metre long and able to accommodate ships up to 6,000 tonnes, CSL Chairman and Managing Director, Commodore K Subramaniam, told reporters here.

The project is likely to be taken up by next year. The shipyard has two drydocks. One of the docks is being used for the construction of the Indigenous Aircraft carrier of the Indian Navy and the other is used for ship building and ship repair. Once the shiplift system gets completed it is likely to ease the congestion in the drydock.

At present, the yard has orders for 34 ships consisting 14 Offshore Platform vessels for domestic and international owners and 20 Fast Patrol vessels for the Coast Guard totally valued at Rs 4,000 crore.

On India's first Indigenous Aircraft carrier being built at the CSL for the Navy, he said it is to be 'floated out' in December last year. But due to various reasons, it could not take place and will be floated out this year end, he said.

CSL is hoping to get more orders from the Indian Navy very soon,he said.

Recession did have an impact on the shipyard as it did not receive any orders from 2008 to September 2010. After Sept 2010, the yard received orders for 24 ships of the 34 ships.

The effect of recession will be felt this year and the next year. "We had a very good growth in the last 5 years. That will not be there this year and the next year. But our performance would not be affected." he said.

The shipyard's shipbuilding income increased to Rs 1,012 crore in 2009-10 from Rs 222 crore in 2005-06.

CSL has been diversifying into new areas of construction and repairs over the last few years and had successfully completed two major ship conversion projects, one for a Singapore based owner and the other for National Institute for Oceanography , Goa. The former was a conversion of a fishing vessel to research vessel and the latter was a conversion of fishing vessel to a seismic survey one.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Craig Alpert » 12 Mar 2011 07:02

Indian Defense Lab Dishes Out New Meals For Soldiers
.................
“All these days we’re supplying packs with breakfast, lunch and dinner weighing between 1 and 1.7 kilograms,” says DFRL Director A.S. Bawa. “They included chapattis/parathas [types of Indian breads], vegetarian and non-vegetarian sabzis [curries], desserts [fresh cut fruits], tea and energy bars. This has been the menu ever since the war with China. Now we want to change this menu and offer seven different types of MRE for our soldiers.”

During the Kargil conflict with Pakistan, DFRL dispensed tons of food packets around the clock. “Our new menu is mainly aimed at inspiring the soldiers, as [they] would be tired of eating the same meal every day,” Bawa says. “Now, with the changes being incorporated, he will have choice and this might even contribute to his on-field performance.”..............

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby suryag » 12 Mar 2011 18:55

quality of food is of great importance. Hope our jawans get the best whether they are on siachen or in arunachal pradesh

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby VinodTK » 13 Mar 2011 20:28

Defence technologies transferred to India not the best: Antony
‘Don’t expect any country in the world, however friendly it is, to part with most modern technology. That’s the reality of the world,’ Antony said, terming the technology transfers it had obtained from other nations as ‘not being A-grade’.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vipul » 18 Mar 2011 18:38

Ordnance Factory Board draws up Rs 6,800 cr upgrade plan.

The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has drawn up an extensive modernisation and infrastructure plan in all of its 39 odd factories across the nation, the company chief said today.

"The board has made a detailed project report about long- term modernisation of all the 39 factories. We will submit (it) to the defence ministry in April for approval," Director- General of Ordnance Factories and chairman of OFB D M Gupta said today.

Gupta said the expenditure lay out for the upgradation plan would be Rs 6,800 crore, which would be spent over a period of five years.

The board would also commence trial production at its new plant at Korwa near Lucknow this year built to manufacture small arms, he told reporters here.

About the other new plant at Nalanda in Bihar, he said that work on the facility had been put on hold because of certain problems.

Further, he said the Nalanda plant will manufacture propellant chargers for high calibre ammunitions.

Gupta said that Israeli Military Industries was yet to put up its unit in the plant which would manufacture Bi-modular Charge Systems, the finished product.

"We are hopeful of an early completion of the plant", he said.

The two plants had attracted an investments of Rs 1200 crore.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby vic » 18 Mar 2011 18:59



Any money spend on Indian manufacturing plants is good to hear.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Craig Alpert » 19 Mar 2011 05:49


SaiK
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby SaiK » 19 Mar 2011 06:53

If we need A grade technology, then it has to be emphasis from home grown only. Basics that babooze will never learn.

Indaruta would be shocked if we say anything that India is not part in that awesome graphs. But will derail the thread here.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby sum » 22 Mar 2011 08:55

Any clue what this is about? :-? :-?
Stop purchase of BEL night vision devices for rifles

BANGALORE: The Communist Party of India (CPI) has urged the Union Home Ministry to stop purchase of night vision telescopic devices produced by Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL), which will be attached to light machine guns (LMGs) and INSAS 5.56 mm rifles used by the paramilitary forces.

The Ministry plans to purchase 32,766 units at a cost of Rs. 3 lakh each, which will cost about Rs. 1,000 crore, deputy general secretary of the CPI Karnataka State Council and former MP Suvaravaram Sudhakar Reddy told presspersons here on Saturday. Though the life of each unit was supposed to be 10 years, he said, 400 units of the 1,000 supplied earlier developed defects within two-and-a-half years.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Mar 2011 09:36

Sum-> Notice who is purchasing the scopes- not Mod but Union Home ministry, so who will use those scopes? BSF and CRPF

So will the scopes be used against ? Freindly BD smuglers and Freindly communist bretheren Mao pests, hence the Takleef cause Night vision scopes are a game changer.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Avik » 22 Mar 2011 12:06

^^^^^^

Most probably, this agitation/demand is inspired by the workers union...

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby sum » 22 Mar 2011 13:18

But, why is the worker union protesting against work being given to BEL? :-?

Would have understood the protest if a foreign company was given the order instead of the union infested BEL or OFB!!!

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Sagar G » 22 Mar 2011 13:39

Aditya_V wrote:So will the scopes be used against ? Freindly BD smuglers and Freindly communist bretheren Mao pests, hence the Takleef cause Night vision scopes are a game changer.


I also thought on similar lines but the concern seems to be genuine here....

Though the life of each unit was supposed to be 10 years, he said, 400 units of the 1,000 supplied earlier developed defects within two-and-a-half years.


If this is true then BEL has a problem in hand to solve.


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