India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
member_22539
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2022
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_22539 » 10 Jul 2012 18:00

Despite the good argument by Mr. Shiv as usual, I have to go with tsarkar on this one. I would rate this idea of Indian corporate pacifism at the same level as the so called martial races myth.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 10 Jul 2012 18:52

tsarkar wrote:Wadias built warships as a private shipyard. Also, there were lots of private firms - both British & Indian owned - that manufactured bullets and cartridges all over India.


No Siree. This is pure guesswork and has no basis in reality unless you mean the Bihar and Bengal workshops producing weapons for dacoits and feudal lords. :mrgreen: Even then the cartridges were imported. India did not even have the basic chemical manufacturing capacity to set up explosives factories. No need to make up stories about India's past industrial prowess.

Here is a 1941 academic paper from the IISc archives. Read the greyed part carefully sir.
Image
Last edited by shiv on 10 Jul 2012 19:47, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 10 Jul 2012 19:37

Lack of knowledge of engineering and chemistry save for a few has ensured that we don't even understand the history of our nation and depend on fond delusions that pass for our views of India. A different aspect of the same national ignorance is being discussed in the Out of India thread.

I would recommend reading the full pdf linked above. Sulphuric acid is a basic chemical needed to produce explosives. By 1941 countries like UK, France, Germany and the US and Belgium :shock: were all producing over 1,000,000 (one million) tons of Sulphuric acid each per year. And India? India was producing 20,000 tons. That is 2% of what Belgium could produce.

The paper goes on to observe that India's requirement for Ammonium Sulphate by the time of writing was 100,000 to 120,000 tons. But India was producing 20,000 onlee. The information of where India was in the 1940s is all there. One only needs to do an honest search, assuming of course that one has the basic technical knowledge of what to search for. If you lack the information any gassing can pass for truth.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3222
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby tsarkar » 10 Jul 2012 22:26

Shiv, manufacture does not always mean "manufacture from raw material phase".

Even Shivalik and IAC ships were initiated using Russian steel, with Indian steel coming into play during latter phase of construction. France supplies HLES steel for the Scorpenes being built in India. http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 373848.ece
Supply of material and armament is steady and the steel comes from France

The first Su-30MKI from “raw materials” phase flew in 2011, and was probably the 50th or 60th bird “built” by HAL, the earlier birds “built” by HAL used Russian "raw materials". Out of the 272 Sukhois, only around 80+42 will be built from Indian "raw materials". Rest 150 from SKD/CKD kits.

So if you quote lack of sulphuric acid or cordite manufacturing factories then as hampering ammunition factories then, by that yardstick, we’re still pathetically backward since we do not produce steel for Shivaliks and Scorpenes, and that DMR249A and B were developed only late in the last decade.

If India was so backward in the 40’s, then why was private manufacture prohibited in the 50’s? Why wasn’t every Indian effort encouraged?

There was a huge demand for hunting and personal arms before the war, primarily among the British, and during WW2, and these entities converted to manufacturing military material. Once such company, owned by my grandfather’s friend, profited during the war, but policies in the 50’s forced it to close. The owner lost his investments. I was too young to remember the details.

Coming back to the original point, Walchand Hirachand established HAL and HSL in the pre-independence era. HSL, from establishment in the 40’s, was churning out ships by 1948.

It has built more ships between 40’s to 60s – and of better quality - before nationalization than from 60’s to 90’s after nationalization. HAL & HSL will never officially divulge their pre-nationalization histories, because it will put their current performance to shame.

But of course, by your yardstick, Walchand Hirachand, a Digambar Jain, and his efforts, are just “stories” and “gas”, and A M Naik or Nikhil Gandhi’s investments are still not substantial enough, or others have religious &/or moral scruples.

member_22539
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2022
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_22539 » 10 Jul 2012 22:35

Shiv, I get your argument regarding the backwardness of Indian industry in the past and also currently, and its slow process of catching up with the west. All the same, if I were to take your example of sulphuric acid production and apply that to your argument regarding the reluctance of some Indians to invest in arms producing industry, the question one would get is "what possible harm can a pacifist see in investing in the sulphuric acid industry or rather the chemical industry?" Surely, sulphuric acid has more applications than just explosives production. What I am trying to convey is that I agree with your theory regarding pure industrial backwardness holding us back, rather than our pacifistic attitude. Even if we did not outright invest in arms manufacturing, if we had good enough technology in related spheres, surely it wouldn't be the uphill climb its proving to be currently. For instance, even if Japan does not have nuclear weapons currently, surely they can make one in a short period of time given how industrially and technologically advanced they are.

member_23360
BRFite
Posts: 152
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_23360 » 10 Jul 2012 22:56

+1

tejas
BRFite
Posts: 768
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 04:47

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby tejas » 10 Jul 2012 23:16

Shiv in 2011 UQ produced 1.2 million tons H2So4. The latest date for India I could find was 2007 and it was 12 million tons. India was indeed incredibly backwards at/near independence. Which amplifies even more IG's economic incompetence in leading India to meager 2-3% growth on such a low base. However things have changed much for the better from an manufacturing/industrial base today. Now we have no one to blame but ourselves ( and Socialism). In the most competitive economy in the world, Umrikah, Indians have a per capita GDP twice the US average ( Poaks have half the US average BTW). Poverty and backwardness in India owes its existence to the Gandee family, Kangress party and Karl Marx in that order. I think from now on all slums in India should be named after the Gandee family rather than infrastructure projects as they are more responsible than anyone else for their existence.


SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby SaiK » 11 Jul 2012 01:36

Interesting..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrorheological_fluid

So, what about the M777's light weight materials being incorporated into it?
We want to try new technology in the area of recoil. The standard recoil systems are hydro-pneumatic but we are looking at an electro rheological liquid which has adaptive viscosity characteristics. So it will have adaptive damping, you will get a smooth consistent recoil no matter what the weight of the shell and what range you are firing at. That makes for a more reliable recoil system. The PSQRs demand new technology such as barrel coating. So the plan is to first build the barrel using current technologies and then try coating. Once that barrel development technology has matured, we can add new technologies and improve its performance. A number of foreign firms are willing to offer the coating technology. We are in dialogue but nothing has been firmed up yet. In order to cut down on time, we may get the technology from abroad, especially about the barrel coating and the recoilless system.


new 155mm 45-calibre gun that could take a decade to develop and field.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19302

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 11 Jul 2012 05:58

tsarkar wrote:So if you quote lack of sulphuric acid or cordite manufacturing factories then as hampering ammunition factories then, by that yardstick, we’re still pathetically backward since we do not produce steel for Shivaliks and Scorpenes, and that DMR249A and B were developed only late in the last decade.

If India was so backward in the 40’s, then why was private manufacture prohibited in the 50’s? Why wasn’t every Indian effort encouraged?


TSarkar your arguments are fine but none of them really mean anything more than I have indicated. Europe had war economies upto 1945 and they were not exporting raw material to India. Any exports to India were partially or fully finished goods for assembly. I mentioned ships in my original post and said that ships were being made. Do you really know what Walchand Hirachand was doing and what happened to his factory during the war and who was running it? Will you Google for it or would you like me to post scanned pages from the relevant book on the history of HAL?

If India was backward in the 40s it means only means that it has had less time to undergo an industrial revolution than if it had 200 years. I know you want to hammer the point about stupid governments but that is an old well hammered one which as you have yourself proved makes you ignore facts just for the pleasure of hammering government policy. We spend so much effort hammering government policies (as you have done yet again in your post) that we are blind to other contributing factors. This is called missing the trees for the forest. A one track rant about governmental policy with no interest or awareness of a wide field of other factors just keeps everyone dumbed down. What the mind does not know the eye does not see.
Last edited by shiv on 11 Jul 2012 06:41, edited 3 times in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 11 Jul 2012 06:26

Arun Menon wrote: the question one would get is "what possible harm can a pacifist see in investing in the sulphuric acid industry or rather the chemical industry?" Surely, sulphuric acid has more applications than just explosives production. What I am trying to convey is that I agree with your theory regarding pure industrial backwardness holding us back, rather than our pacifistic attitude.


I really don't want to push the pacifist theory very far without collecting more data, but I am certain that investment in business enterprises have been led by particular vysya/business communities like Marwaris, Shettys and others who still run businesses today that were started a century or more ago well before independence. If you look at entire communities and see what they do - you find them in agricultural goods distribution and sale, cotton and jute, edible oils, consumer good, jewellery, gems, cement, fabrics, mills and machinery. They were never investors in the production of swords and rifles or even carpentry, woodwork, rearing of horses, or in leather goods, or in animal husbandry needed to supply meat to the men of the armed forces. These latter categories of business were more connected with the military up to the first world war rather than the traditional occupations of the business communities that catered to the civilian population. Steel became crucial by WW1, but I have not gone into a history of steel production in India. Yet.

The "mills and machinery" part is relevant because it was investment in mills that led to machine tools and power. It was visionaries like the ancestral Ambani and Kasturbhai Lalbhai who started competing with the British to acquire machinery for mills after they had cornered the cotton export business in the early 20th century. The Brits were in India to make money and not see natives pulling the rug from underneath their feet. But pull the rug the natives did and gave India its first industries. Still the Brits had a restrictive policy on the setting up of industries by locals because that meant that industries in Britain lost business. They did their darndest to thwart those industries (Gurcharan Das has some details in his book "India Unbound") And this restrictive policy was even for industries for civilian goods.

If Indian business houses were falling over each other to produce arms for Britain's war effort, I have not found any data about it, but will continue searching. But it seems likely that these business houses, who wanted the Brits out, would probably not have invested in anything to help the Brits win their damned war. So there is a combination of British restriction on industry and traditional Indian preference for certain businesses that I am sure contributed to the specific industrial state of affairs we had by 1950. But by 1950 Europe had 150 to 200 years of industrial revolution behind it.

I think a visit to the thread about Industrial development and military aviation in India will show what India had by way of engineers by1950. I put in some research when I started that thread and that thread is relevant to this topic. I think that if we have to be fair to ourselves we need to stop flagellating Indians of the past and present and spend more time looking at the data that is available rather than having a rant about politicians which is about a far as we get on here. After a stage the ignorance and political rhetoric that gets bandied about as wisdom is tiresome. It only reveals ignorance and supreme comfort in remaining cocooned within that ignorance.

Please have a look at this thread. Just 3 pages so far..
Industrial development & the evolution of military aviation

member_22539
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2022
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_22539 » 11 Jul 2012 09:04

^I have been a consistent follower of that thread and it is indeed eye-opening. If there are statistics to back up the aforementioned pacifistic attitude among Indian business communities, it is indeed disturbing, particularly if it still persists. I would rank such biases along with the stigma placed upon overseas travel for thousands of years in India. Such tendencies, if they exist in a significant way, should be exposed to be the asinine and prejudicial attitudes that they are. They must be decried as anti-national and backward. However, I strongly agree with you regarding the past and present industrial backwardness that exists in India. We should expand and progress in our industries and be known as a Industrial power and not just a software powerhouse. Blaming the govt for everything and conveniently forgetting our own weaknesses and backwardness (thanks in no small amount to the British and the previous invaders) is to fall prey to a cognitive bias. It is similar to some people I know, who rant and rave with unparalleled fury about the faults of this nation and its government (whom I despise with every atom in my body), but cant be bothered to cast their vote on election day.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 11 Jul 2012 09:40

Arun Menon wrote: If there are statistics to back up the aforementioned pacifistic attitude among Indian business communities, it is indeed disturbing, particularly if it still persists. I would rank such biases along with the stigma placed upon overseas travel for thousands of years in India.


It is, as you said earlier, wrong to pin pacifism solely on specific communities and it would be OT to even continue discussing that here. But a reading of Indian history suggests that India has thrown up pacifism time and again through history. Without expanding on that in this thread, I would like to point out that India has, like any other human population a healthy (or unhealthy?) constituency of people who are decidedly NOT pacifist.

I think that the last 200 years of Indian history were particularly "internally divisive" in that pacifism among people was allowed to survive (because it was harmless to the leadership) , while the kings and militaries came under control of various foreign/alien parties - with the Brits being the most important. Trade and profiteering in civil goods was encouraged so long as the Brits benefited. Those same 200 years coincided with the industrial revolution and a revolution in military affairs so to speak. Independent Indian armies of 1750 had horses, elephants, rifles, cannons and swords; navies, such as existed, were sailboats. 200 years later Indian technology remained at that level but wars were being fought with motorized vehicles and aircraft, submarines and aircraft carriers. India missed those 200 years of industrialization as pacifism was never quelled, but militarism was opposed - with the most significant early event being the 1857 uprising - rapidly quelled. After 1857 the British crown took over control of India from the East India Company and they were strict about who could build or bear arms. This happened in the decades before the internal combustion engine and aircraft and the restriction on military technology lasted till 1947.

From 1857 onwards the British took care to disarm and keep at arms length the pesky politically active SDRE Bengalees (east Indians) and the "non martial" South. the simultaneously ensured the loyalty and employment of the Gunga Din "martial" North Western Mussalman and some Punjabis who were armed with British weapons. Not locally made Indian weapons. Even if anything was locally fashioned, the steel and critical components including machinery came from the Queendom. All this is recorded history freely available for anyone who actually wants to read before giving lectures about socialism.

The longer we keep bashing Indira Gandhi and Nehru and socialism deluding ourselves that they were the only factors that kept India down, the longer we are clutching onto our own tunnel vision about past events, blinding ourselves to a rich and complex history. We are showing the same degree of dumb idiocy that the imbeciles who coined the Aryan Invasion Theory displayed - in believing what we like and ignoring, or worse, not even looking for other contributory factors that made India what it is today.

member_22539
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2022
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_22539 » 11 Jul 2012 11:46

Shiv, beautifully put as usual. I also sometimes feel that the narrow focus of our wrath on certain leaders (whom I cannot satisfactorily deride with mere words) and organizations prevent us from seeing the bigger picture. This if unchecked would lead to a blame the outsider complex that is disgustingly prevalent in most Muslim communities/nations. Anyway, do tell me if you are continuing this topic in any other thread, it is indeed fascinating.

A Sharma
BRFite
Posts: 1154
Joined: 20 May 2003 11:31

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby A Sharma » 13 Jul 2012 22:22

SECOND FLIGHT OF THE INDIGENOUS WANKEL ENGINE FOR A UAV: A DRDO/CSIR PARTNERSHIP

The second flight test of the indigenous 55 hp Wankel Rotary Combustion Engine was carried out on 20th June 2012 on the Aeronautical Development Establishment’s (ADE), NISHANT UAV at Kolar airfield. The engine was the second flight worthy prototype delivered to ADE by NAL.

The flight took off at 1430 hrs in the afternoon and climbed to an altitude of 1.9 km. The total mission duration was 1 hour 45 min. The UAV was recovered safely at the intended place at the dried-up Muduvadi lake, after the successful mission. The event was witnessed by key personnel: Dr V K Saraswat, SA to RM, DG DRDO, Shri G Elangovan, CC R&D (Avionics & Aero), Shri PS Krishnan, Director, ADE, Shri Shyam Chetty, Director, NAL, Dr C P Ramanarayanan, Director, VRDE and Dr K Tamilmani, CE CEMILAC, the Regional Director, RCMA, and other senior officers.

The indigenous engine development program was originated from DRDO through Vehicles Research & Development Establishment (VRDE), Ahmednagar, and was jointly designed and developed by CSIR-NAL, VRDE, and ADE. Under this program the 55 hp Wankel engine was developed for ADE’s NISHANT UAV. NAL designed and developed the core engine, VRDE and ADE were in-charge of peripheral systems and flight testing respectively. As per the MOU two flight worthy proto type engines were delivered. First engine was delivered in January 2009 and completed a 40 min maiden successful flight on 31st march 2009. The flown engine underwent 20 hours and 10 hours of pre and post flight tests respectively. The post-flight test was carried out and confirmed that engine’s performance was matching with the pre-flight performance.

The Wankel engine is the first of its kind that was totally designed and developed in the country. Very few countries in the world have the capability to develop and master this technology. The engine was cleared for flight after rigorous ground endurance test runs. A provisional flight clearance for the indigenous prototype engine was given by the certifying agency, RCMA which comes under CEMILAC. The engine performed very well in the flight, meeting all the requirements of the Air Vehicle.

This type of engines are used for powering smaller air vehicles and also in automotive (Mazda, and Racing Cars), out-board motor for boats and other industrial applications in particular for power generation, typically up to 80 kW.

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby vasu raya » 16 Jul 2012 01:14

Tele medicine

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=19345

They got the ERNET, BMD network, defence network, coastal radar network, now tele medicine, we will probably need a Judicial net as well networking courts and police stations

huge opportunities for network backbone business

Vashishtha
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 23:06
Location: look behind you

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vashishtha » 18 Jul 2012 16:07

Any updates on the National civilian airliner project?
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-04-16/india/31348927_1_national-civil-aircraft-national-aerospace-laboratories-mahindra-aerospace
NEW DELHI: India is working on developing its very own 90-seater civilian aircraft with the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) saying "the strategy for its production has already been evolved" with the design "planned to have unique features like enhanced fuel efficiency, use of bio fuel with low carbon footprint, short to long range haul, shorter air strip requirement and ultra modern avionics".

A design bureau has been set up to undertake indigenous design and development of the plane, called the National Civil Aircraft (NCA-90). A total of seven prototypes are proposed to be developed by CSIR along with the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) "to prove the design and demonstrate compliance with respect to airworthiness requirements and certification".

PrithviRajChauhan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 32
Joined: 09 Sep 2009 00:59

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby PrithviRajChauhan » 19 Jul 2012 09:43

A very very informative video on Electronic Warfare. The topic of the video is "History of Silicon Valley" which is quite interesting as it tells how US invested in their institutions , universities which all started due their Military engagement in WW 2. Please see the video and you would know why the US is an innovation hub and would remain so in the foreseeable future.
I seriously hope GOI replicates something on these lines.


http://youtu.be/ZTC_RxWN_xo
[youtube]http://youtu.be/ZTC_RxWN_xo[/youtube]

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vipul » 23 Jul 2012 04:59

Burdened defence shipyards embrace private sector.

Today, a day after handing over a brand new stealth frigate, INS Sahyadri, to the Indian Navy, warship builder Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL) announced the formation of two joint venture companies to help address an order book too large to handle by itself.

In a statement, it says MDL “has signed shareholder agreements for setting up JVs with private shipyards Pipavav Defence & Offshore Engineering Co Ltd, Mumbai, and Larsen & Toubro for construction of surface warships and conventional submarines, respectively”.

The Ventures, it says, “will leverage the strengths of the respective JV partners in the public and private sectors to work out a collaborative strategy for taking the nation towards self-sufficiency in warship construction”. And, that MDL might explore additional ventures “with other leading shipbuilders” for “diversifying its product profile”. The order book would be the envy of any warship builder. Under construction in MDL’s berths are three destroyers of Project 15A — INS Kolkata, INS Kochi and INS Chennai — joining the navy’s fleet early next year. Also on order are four more destroyers of Project 15B, to be followed by four stealth frigates of the so-called Project 17A.

In its highly secured East Yard, MDL is fabricating six Scorpene submarines, all of which are scheduled (after three years of delay) to join the navy between 2015 and 2018. Also looming on the horizon is Project 75I, which involves building six more conventional submarines, in parallel with Project 75.

However, India’s premier defence shipyard has neither the space nor the personnel to handle this workload. So, MDL wants to farm out work to the private sector, capitalising on newly created warship building capacities in shipyards built by Pipavav and L&T.

“We will synergise our capabilities with the infrastructure and expertise in the private sector,” says MDL’s chairman, Rear Admiral (Retired) Rahul Kumar Shrawat. “MDL began identifying a suitable JV partner last year. Some major players were dissatisfied with the process (protests from shipyards last year led the MoD to cancel MDL’s announced JV with Pipavav, and to issue guidelines for forming JVs in February). We restarted the process, following the MoD’s guidelines…and our team has now identified L&T as a partner for submarine building, and Pipavav for surface ships.”

MoD sources said another defence shipyard, Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE), Kolkata, is also exploring JVs with the private sector. GRSE is full to capacity with building four anti-submarine corvettes in Project 28. It will also build three stealth frigates (in cooperation with MDL) in Project 17A. Observers of India’s shipbuilding programmes regard this shift of production to the private sector as inevitable. The Indian Navy, the fastest growing of the three services, has a growing requirement of warships as South Block pays increased attention to India’s maritime interests, a focus intensified by Washington’s “pivot to Asia” and China’s growing assertiveness in the Western Pacific. In line with this trend, several private shipyards — including L&T, Pipavav and ABG — have built capabilities.

Still, L&T, with its proud engineering pedigree and its accomplishment in the Arihant programme, hardly regards itself as a junior partner to MDL. L&T has long coveted the long-delayed Project 75I, which involves building six conventional submarines for the navy in parallel with the Scorpenes. Says M V Kotwal, who oversees L&T’s defence business: “The JV can assist MDL with its current orders, but L&T is not foreclosing its options to pursue submarine orders independently. The MoD knows that India has two independent entities that are capable of building submarines: MDL and L&T.”

L&T also challenges the navy’s insistence on building the first two submarines of Project 75I abroad, with the next four being built in India. “L&T has invested heavily in skills and capital and the government must realise the navy’s requirements can be met in this country. So, the MoD should drastically cut down on importing naval platforms,” the company said.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16815
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby NRao » 23 Jul 2012 07:00

PrithviRajChauhan wrote:A very very informative video on Electronic Warfare.
http://youtu.be/ZTC_RxWN_xo


Thanks.


(BTW, you need to work on embedding youtube stuff.)

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Victor » 23 Jul 2012 09:43


Excellent. Looks like L&T at least is going to batter its way into the game big time and refuse to be pushed around. Our marine future is looking up.

Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Pranav » 24 Jul 2012 07:52

shiv wrote:I know you want to hammer the point about stupid governments but that is an old well hammered one which as you have yourself proved makes you ignore facts just for the pleasure of hammering government policy. We spend so much effort hammering government policies (as you have done yet again in your post) that we are blind to other contributing factors. This is called missing the trees for the forest. A one track rant about governmental policy with no interest or awareness of a wide field of other factors just keeps everyone dumbed down. What the mind does not know the eye does not see.


The important thing is to compare the speed of Indian development to that in other nations such as South Korea. South Korea was more backward than India post-WW2 and also has fewer natural resources.

As we are well aware, India is 100% dependent on imports for even basic electronic components such as calculators and wrist watches.

keshavchandra
BRFite
Posts: 265
Joined: 05 Dec 2008 22:23

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby keshavchandra » 24 Jul 2012 15:18

there is a good news, Discovery channel will show a new series on DRDO research projects. So hope we may get good insight. :)

Neela
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3657
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 15:05
Location: Spectator in the dossier diplomacy tennis match

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Neela » 24 Jul 2012 16:48

Pranav wrote:The important thing is to compare the speed of Indian development to that in other nations such as South Korea. South Korea was more backward than India post-WW2 and also has fewer natural resources.

As we are well aware, India is 100% dependent on imports for even basic electronic components such as calculators and wrist watches.


Pranav,
Can you make a business case/proposal where you can manufacture electronic components, sell it , make a profit and show that it will be a sustainable venture for the next 10 years?
After all, any investor, including GoI , will not want to see its money go wasted?

But allow me to re-phrase what you want to say.
"GoI must encourage and nurture an indigenous electronic industry where there is both technology, know-how,talent and manpower for all kinds of electronic equipment, including high end stuff. This is a strategic industry that GoI must invest whether there is money to be made or not."
Is that correct?

Unfortunately there is no clear answer to this. Did we miss the bus ?Maybe . Maybe not! Can we now manufacure high end, strategic stuff -yes (AESA T/R modules, mmW seeker from RCI Imarat) . Do we need a general purpose microprocessor ( not the PC kind) with an completely Indian arch. for strategic purposes. Maybe! But I do not know how sustainable this is. But maybe, when a proven microsprocessor exists, it will , by itself spawn new industries local and specific to India- maybe!
I agree partly to what you said. But this is a industry with a range of products selling stuff from Rs.10 a piece to Rs. 200,000 . The prospect boggles me.
Last edited by Neela on 24 Jul 2012 17:30, edited 1 time in total.

nash
BRFite
Posts: 889
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby nash » 24 Jul 2012 17:14

keshavchandra wrote:there is a good news, Discovery channel will show a new series on DRDO research projects. So hope we may get good insight. :)


what is the probable timing..

Prasanna
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 28
Joined: 25 May 2008 13:00

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Prasanna » 24 Jul 2012 18:39

Pranav wrote:As we are well aware, India is 100% dependent on imports for even basic electronic components such as calculators and wrist watches.


keep spreading lies, it's just that nobody believes them when a quick google search proves you wrong.

keshavchandra
BRFite
Posts: 265
Joined: 05 Dec 2008 22:23

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby keshavchandra » 24 Jul 2012 23:34

nash wrote:
keshavchandra wrote:there is a good news, Discovery channel will show a new series on DRDO research projects. So hope we may get good insight. :)


what is the probable timing..

They are still advertising as coming soon. So may be in coming week, they'll show the series. :)

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vipul » 28 Jul 2012 02:42

Bharat Forge starts trial production of aerospace components.

Bharat Forge Ltd (BFL), the Pune-based Indian multinational and the flagship company of the Kalyani Group, has begun trial production of titanium and specialty steel forgings for the aerospace industry.

The forgings major said it was in advanced stages of manufacturing aircraft components. ''We are seeing a lot of traction in this segment, and we are trying to build capacity to service aerospace customers,'' Amit Kalyani, executive director of BFL, said.

Kalyani said the company was focusing on adding value to products and leveraging existing capabilities to intensify exports while focusing on the passenger car and light commercial vehicle segment on the domestic front.Besides the existing markets of the US and Europe, he said, Bharat Forge is planning to increase market penetration and enter new geographies.

The non-auto business accounts for around 38 per cent of Bharat Forge's current sales. ''Going forward, we are targeting over 50 per cent to come from the non-auto business,'' Kalyani said.The company is also setting up a new plant in Indore to service auto manufacturers around the region. However, the plan and the product portfolio will be decided over the next 18 months.''We will set up a plant there and make certain products that are not being made here,'' Kalyani pointed out.

Bharat Forge has, meanwhile, made long-term strategic alliances with titanium manufacturers for supply of raw material and technology for forging aircraft components, Subodh Tandale, executive director of the company said on the sidelines of the company's AGM.''Products are being identified and we will begin trial production for some aircraft manufacturers,'' he said, adding that this was being done at the existing facilities in view of the heavy investments and approvals that normally take two to five years.

Bharat Forge is the largest exporter of auto components from India and leading chassis component manufacturer in the world.A technology driven global leader, the company has end-to-end capability and manufacturing footprint across India, Germany, Sweden, the US and China.The company manufactures a wide range of highly engineered critical and safety components for several sectors, including automobile, oil and gas, rail and marine, energy (renewable and non-renewable), construction and mining and general engineering.

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vipul » 28 Jul 2012 02:45

RIL lines up close to $1 billion plan in aerospace sector, Nashik may be HQ for new business.

Reliance Industries Ltd (RIL) is expected to invest close to $1 billion over the next few years and hire around 1,500 people in its new aerospace division.Details of RIL's plans were confirmed to ET by executives close to the matter who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

Early this month, the Mukesh Ambani-led company applied for an industrial licence with the Department of Industrial Policy and Promotion to "design, develop, manufacture, equipment and components, including airframe, engine, radars, avionics and accessories for military and civilian aircraft, helicopters, unmanned airborne vehicles and aerostats".

This decision by RIL comes after the creation of two new entities: Reliance Aerospace Technologies Pvt Ltd and Reliance Security Solutions Ltd.

The creation of these new businesses was set in motion more than a year ago when RIL created an entity called "new business" and hired the then Boeing India chief, Vivek Lall, for launching its aerospace and homeland security divisions.

The application with DIPP further discloses that "the company will also undertake research and produce new aerospace technologies, materials, components and equipment and test and carry out their certification".

RIL will also join hands with global players to bring in sophisticated civil and military aerospace technologies into the country, executives close to the matter said. It will also prioritise research and development and testing and certification of new aerospace technologies, materials, components and equipment.

In its application to DIPP, RIL has indicated Nashik as the headquarters for its aerospace division - the town is expected to be the centre of the proposed manufacturing hub. The company, executives said, will gradually set up more manufacturing units across the country with the aim of making India a global hub in aerospace manufacturing.

RIL also intends to align with smaller players and train them to produce high-quality products for the airline industry.

RIL is looking at creating synergies to begin with, until it develops technologies - and aircraft - on its own. It is in advanced talks with global aircraft majors for JVs and strategic collaborations, executives close to the matter said.

tejas
BRFite
Posts: 768
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 04:47

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby tejas » 28 Jul 2012 07:46

The reason I have a very good feeling about this is that Reliance has every incentive, once it learns the ropes, to ditch its foreign joint venture partner and do everything( and keep all the profits) itself. If this is duplicated across other sectors India will be freed of imports. The money was just not there in the past to make it worthwhile. And even if there was money there were no private companies to do the job. Now both are present. DPSUs, on the other hand, will be happy turning screw drivers forever and why not? Lastly, if you are a foreign arms merchant good luck trying to bribe your product past the Reliance product (ala T-90 vs Arjun). Compared to the Reliance lobbyist network these jokers are rank amateurs.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2012 08:32

Pranav wrote:As we are well aware, India is 100% dependent on imports for even basic electronic components such as calculators and wrist watches.


Maybe. But this argument does not disgust us as much as the fact that 600 million Indians defecate in the open. India has toilets for 400 million people, and that number translates to eight times more toilets in India than South Korea needs. South Korea could stop building toilets after it reached a threshold figure of perhaps 20 million toilets. India has to build 300 million more toilets. India was importing its food, which now has to feed 1100 million. South Korea feeds only 50 million. India's economy has been geared for human development at a basic food, water, education level.

If you are a young and fit 30 year old today - you were born in 1982. Compare statistics like maternal mortality, infant mortality, literacy, and food production tonnage and number of school and college seats available in 1962 and 2012 to get an idea of what India has been doing. Compare with Korea and see how much less they had to do to meet basic needs. I think we have developed a kind of "Islamic egalitarianist, all people and nations are equal" thought process where we compare India with South Korea imagining that they both started equal and S Korea ran ahead.

member_22539
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2022
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_22539 » 28 Jul 2012 09:19

shiv wrote:I think we have developed a kind of "Islamic egalitarianist, all people and nations are equal" thought process where we compare India with South Korea imagining that they both started equal and S Korea ran ahead.



That is indeed the case. None of India's impairments, weaknesses and unique challenges are accepted and only its failures are recognized. I have often heard South Korea was worse than India at the time of its independence. Is that true? Can anyone point to the specifics?

geeth
BRFite
Posts: 1195
Joined: 22 Aug 1999 11:31
Location: India

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby geeth » 28 Jul 2012 09:38

One of the problems that people often discuss much less is the level of productivity. People in other countries, and also Indians working in other countries have genrally higher levels of productivity - This is particularly true in Govt establishments. IMO the reason is the lackadaisical attitude of the working class, conducive labour laws which aids these kind of attitude and militant trade unionism.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2012 12:33

geeth wrote:One of the problems that people often discuss much less is the level of productivity. People in other countries, and also Indians working in other countries have genrally higher levels of productivity - This is particularly true in Govt establishments. IMO the reason is the lackadaisical attitude of the working class, conducive labour laws which aids these kind of attitude and militant trade unionism.


Geeth let me point out an odd paradox. I grew up reading that Indians are lazy and that Indian "work culture" is poor. I suffered from cognitive dissonance because no one near me was lazy and no one skipped work. I discovered that domestic helps, gardeners, watchmen, dhobis, doodhwalas, vegetable vendors and many others never took a single day off. If they took time off at all it was for Hindu festivals Holi, Dussera, Diwali etc I found out later that it was the "work culture" of regular paid labor who had to work 8 hour shifts 6 days a week and got Sunday off that had a "poor work culture". They were accused of having too many grandfathers who kept dying and of disappearing for days without leave at the time of Diwali as they had "gone to native". Socialist PSU/government jobs that gave lifetime job security and unionism protected this work culture, or lack of it.

I don't think Indians in India lack work culture. Watch any Marwari or Shetty who runs a business. He is at his shop by 10 AM and stays there till 9 PM 7 days a week. That is a type of Indian wok culture that is never recognized and never praised. But India is undergoing a massive shift in work culture from the traditional Indian work all days except festivals to a Christist-Industrial age - God rested on Sunday work paradigm. Even the maids who used to work 7 days a week now get one day off. But those who run their own businesses - are fully capable of and willing to work 7 days a week. As do many others including police, doctors and soldiers in India.

member_22539
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2022
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_22539 » 28 Jul 2012 13:02

^+1

geeth
BRFite
Posts: 1195
Joined: 22 Aug 1999 11:31
Location: India

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby geeth » 28 Jul 2012 13:55

Shiv, I don't think I understood fully what you wrote above. If you are saying there are Indians in India who work hard, I don't dispute it. But they are in minority and more often than not, they would be running the show, while the remain passengers.

That is not what I am trying to put across. It is this 80/20 phenomena (or may be 90/10) which is a major problem. The productivity level in India is low, particularly in PSUs and nobody is able to/unwilling to do anything about it. Due to this, where a work force of 10 is required, 20 are recruited.

Other reasons like lack of facilities, funds, beurocratic bottlenecks etc., compound the problem.

tejas
BRFite
Posts: 768
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 04:47

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby tejas » 28 Jul 2012 20:59

Over $500 billion of tax payer money is trapped in non-productive/under-productive PSUs in India. Think what a difference it would make if these were sold and the money spent on rural infrastructure. Additionally the businesses if properly run would be providing the govt more tax revenue. Who can deny the massive problems holding India back? That, however, is no reason to excuse the poverty inducing, growth destroying and market distorting policies that India has been following since being cursed with the Gandee dynasty.

China's per capita income was lower than India's in 1962. Look at today. Should India look like Gujarat or West Bengal? I think my answer is obvious.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54776
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 28 Jul 2012 21:55

Tejas, Right after the FSU triumph in WWII the immediate conclusion was that Command Economy was the way to go to achieve industrial modernization thru public sector enterprises. The UK nationalized most of the heavy industry or subsidized them heavily. In the US that path was the creation of the mega corporation/conglomerates.

India too adopted the command economy via the public sector enterprises. The running of the PSEs has much to be desired as they became backwaters for inconvenient civil servants and politicians.
The model was the officer group was from all India while the labor group was local. In their on way the PSEs also contributed to national integration in the immediate decades after 1947.
The model should have been corrected after 1992 but hasnt as INC still sees some utility in the model.

D Roy
BRFite
Posts: 1176
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:28

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby D Roy » 28 Jul 2012 22:38

The model should have been corrected after 1992 but hasnt as INC still sees some utility in the model.



And I think most will be able to guess why.

tejas
BRFite
Posts: 768
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 04:47

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby tejas » 29 Jul 2012 03:59

Ramana, the model should have been junked in the 70's when South east asia started running away from India growth wise. The previous decade of 2-3% growth didn't seem to chasten anyone. Nowadays it seem incomprehensible that anyone would support this system unless they had a vested interest in milking it to line their pockets. Unfortunately there are plenty of politicians and leftist unions who do just that.Their gain is a loss for millions of poor/jobless people.
Last edited by tejas on 29 Jul 2012 04:02, edited 1 time in total.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: komal and 41 guests