India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby srai » 07 Nov 2013 04:15

Karan M wrote:Pragati is upgraded version of Prahaar and a further version will be the one for IA as well, judging by this report. They have been refining the AAD design to make it a state of the art SSM

...

The 12x12 TEL displayed in Seoul has a six-cannister system that can fire all its missiles in a 3-5 second salvo. The four-man crew can prepare for launch in five minutes and reloading takes about 15 minutes, Parlikar added.

...


The magic number seems to be around 15 minutes for reloading and 5 minutes for launch preparation for most ground missile systems. If I remember correctly, the Akash SAM system is something similar and also the Pinaka MBRL system.

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2379
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby VinodTK » 21 Nov 2013 06:17

India’s first Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle being tested
Hyderabad – A series of tests are underway for India’s first Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle (HSTDV) and this will get a boost with the wind tunnel facility coming up here.

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is confident that HSTDV, which has already achieved 6.5 Mach, will achieve its aim of scramjet flight for 20 seconds.

Mach is commonly used to represent the speed of an object when it is travelling close to or above the speed of sound.

V.G. Sekaran, director general (missiles and strategic systems), DRDO, told reporters here Wednesday they have already achieved some milestones in terms of engine development.

“HSTDV would give us a lead in hypersonic vehicle design, scramjet, material technology and how to manage environment which is peculiar to hypersonic flying engines,” he said.

He said work on the wind tunnel required for tests had started and it would be ready in one-and-half years. He was confident this would reduce the development cycle in hypersonic programme.

Issues related to a long term hypersonic programme in the country will be discussed at a two-day international symposium beginning here Thursday.

The sixth symposium on “Applied aerodynamics and design of aerospace vehicles” will discuss the roadmap for some of the futuristic hypersonic programmes.

Prahlada, vice chancellor, Defence Institute of Advanced Technology, said India was looking at extreme technologies in aerodynamics aimed at making aircraft efficient, green and quiet with smooth flying.

He said India required Aerostat and aerodynamics in a big way. Two types of Aerostat were developed and deployed which can go up to one km. Aerostat which can go up to four km and carry two tonnes of load were under development, he added.

“Our aim is it develop an Aerostat which can go to 10 km and lift 10-20 tonnes in bad terrain,” he said.

A series of Aerostats will be developed that can be used both for civilian and military purposes.

Prahlada said work was also on to develop micro air vehicles, emulating how some birds like hummingbird and bumblebee fly.

“These birds have very special aerodynamic control. We have not been able to simulate similar aerodynamics for unmanned micro air vehicle. We are looking at using smart material which works like these birds,” he said.

He pointed out these birds can stay where they are and keep lifting without moving forward. Normally when an aircraft lifts, it has to move. Both forward motion and lift are linked but in case of birds, it is delinked, he added.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby vic » 22 Nov 2013 12:23

Cross post to demonstrate, how we continue massive imports while denying seed capital for setting up indigenous production line for things like thermal imaging sensors, Image Intensification tubes, fuzes, various types of ammo etc. For instance, as per my estimate we will require USD 10,000 Million worth of thermal imaging sensors in different applications in next ten years but we are unable to spare USD 500 million as seed money to set up a production line for thermal imaging sensors.

vic wrote:http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-11-11/india/43929355_1_defence-minister-ak-antony-defence-secretary-defence-ministry

Among the projects cleared were the Rs 3,794 crore one to acquire "night sights for carbines" from Indian companies, the Rs 682 crore procurement of Russian extended range Grad BM-21 rockets and the Rs 137 crore purchase of technical support vehicles for Russian T-90S main-battle tanks.


It seems a very massive Rs 3500+ crore deal for Night sights to improve the night fighting capacity of our infantry. I hope we are able to absorb and develop NV technology unless this order is again given to some DPSU (like BEL) who will just label foreign products. It seems like an order for around 200,000 units of Night Vision goggles, which means practically full scale coverage.

In April 2013 there was another deal as below:-

The DAC, which was headed by defence minister AK Antony approved the procurement of 2,000 pieces of night vision devices for T-72 tanks for Rs. 1,000 crore; 1,200 pieces for T-90 tanks for Rs. 960 crore and 1.780 pieces for infantry combat vehicles for Rs.860 crore


In Nov 2012 there was an order as below:-

The Army has placed orders worth Rs. 700 crore for a novel versatile device developed by the Instruments Research and Development Establishment (IRDE), Dehra Dun. The Integrated Multi-Function Sight (IMFS) can be used for surveillance and speedy engagement of targets, among other functions.


But we refuse to set up indigenous capacity, refer below

http://frontierindia.net/indian-army-br ... z2lA4Tlt9u

Tracing the development of night vision devices by DRDO from its earliest days, Dr. V K Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to defence minister, Secretary Deptt.of Defence R&D and DG DRDO highlighted the achievements of DRDO in the field of electro-optics. He also mentioned about the development of ‘Thermal Imaging based commander’s sight for T-72 and T-90 tanks as well as BMPs, thus removing the night blindness of these Armoured Fighting Vehicles. Mentioning about the progress made by IRDE in this critical area, he gave the example of recently developed Integrated Multi Functional Sight that weighs within 3.5 kg, as compared to the 1st generation devices of similar nature, that used to weigh around 55 kg.

Emphasizing the need to strengthen manufacturing infrastructure in the country, he stated that the country had to gear up to produce the advanced Thermal Detectors indigenously, “Our biggest weakness is the availability of infrared imaging detector fabrication facilities. In 80s we were chasing a sum of 60 crores(to establish this facility), in 90s we were chasing a sum of 100 crores and in 2000s we were chasing the sum of 1000 crores. There is a need to take a decision in regard to set up this facility with foreign collaboration, in order to fill this vital technology gap”.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19658
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 22 Nov 2013 13:33

Good find!!

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54682
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 26 Nov 2013 00:27

ARDE Page
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/ARDE/Engli ... oducts.jsp


Look at products developed by the nodal lab on conventional armaments (by their own description).


BTW drop down menu at right hand corner takes you to other labs.

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2379
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby VinodTK » 28 Nov 2013 08:24

From MoneyControl.com: Godrej aims for big share of India's defence-production pie
Even as the debate over handling of defence contracts by PSUs rage on private sector companies are stepping on the gas. The Godrej Group which has been investing in the aerospace business since the last twenty years has just finished its first production order of airframes for BrahMos missiles and is aiming for more such contracts reports CNBC-TV18’s Aastha Maheshwari. The Rs 5000 crore Godrej Group is aiming for a bigger share of India's multi-billion dollar defence-production pie. Also read: Inflation may hurt food biz, focus on cost cutting: Godrej The group's military equipment business has just delivered their first production order of 40 missile airframes to BrahMos Aerospace, which is on track to supplying cruise missiles to the Indian Air Force by 2015.
Now the company has got orders for 100 more sets which are likely to take 3 years for completion. Thanks to the BrahMos contract, Godrej & Boyce 's manufacturing order book is expected to grow from USD6 billion to USD10 billion over the next few years. Jamshyd Godrej, CMD, Godrej & Boyce: “We delivered 40 complete missile sections. We have an order for another 100 missile sections which should take about three years to complete and at the same time we are working on other systems in parallel.” Even though at present the defence sector contributes less than 10 percent of Godrej & Boyce's overall revenues, the company continues to see immense potential in the sector. “It is not a large percentage by sales, it is a small percentage, but it is very important for us strategically and we believe that in years to come this could become a fairly large business. At the moment it is a business which we have been incubating for many decades,” added Jamshyd Godrej. Godrej & Boyce is also looking beyond India with plans of exporting its aerospace equipments in future.
:
:
:

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Victor » 29 Nov 2013 06:18

Buying at home
A spacey ramble that ignores govt dithering and the fact that indigenous equivalents are not expected for desperately needed items like MMRCA, Apache, C-17, C-130, light howitzer etc anytime soon. Light appears towards the end though:
nothing will change without a serious push towards the private sector. Over the past year, the defence ministry released a sanitised version of its long-term integrated perspective plan in order to give private companies a sense of the military's requirement. But too few actionable items were on the list. To get the private sector moving, the ministry must realise that funding support for risky and expensive research and assured orders for the weaponry so produced will be essential.

member_23455
BRFite
Posts: 598
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_23455 » 30 Nov 2013 11:28

So, what happened post ADEX-2013 after all the fanfare? Expressions of interest? Are we participating in any RFI/RFPs of third countries? Marketing JV Tie-ups?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19658
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 30 Nov 2013 14:14

ADEX was for presenting indian capabilities to SoKo - bunch of indian pvt firms and PSUs were there, not just drdo. JVs are likely

A Sharma
BRFite
Posts: 1152
Joined: 20 May 2003 11:31

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby A Sharma » 11 Dec 2013 07:41

Dec Newsletter

ADRDE conducts successful Paradrop Trial of Heavy Drop System

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19658
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 12 Dec 2013 04:17

Sharmaji, you deserve an award for diligently tracking and updating the thread with these regular links.

A Sharma wrote:Dec Newsletter

ADRDE conducts successful Paradrop Trial of Heavy Drop System


ARDE..
SA reviewed the
present and futuristic projects for fuzes for different
ammunition.
He also witnessed firing demo of Joint
Venture Protective Carbine at Pashan Range.

DEAL
Dr Reddy being briefed about software defined radio at DEAL

CVRDE
Maj Gen Shankar, Maj Gen Srivastava, ADG and Brig Chowddhry,
being briefed about the improvements done in 130 mm catapult
system mounted on Arjun Chassis.

Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Sagar G » 14 Dec 2013 18:00

ALERT for people living in la la land about pvt. sector R&D this can be a shocking news discretion is advised.

Industry not contributing financially to science, CNR Rao says

NEW DELHI: Bharat Ratna awardee and eminent scientist C N R Rao on Saturday said the financial contribution of industry towards the development of science in the country has not been on the levels of what has taken place in the Western countries.

"The industry has to support (science), which has not happened till now. Most of the science money has come from the government. In the US or Cambridge, about 40-45 per cent of the money comes from the industry.

"Here 90% is supported by the government. So I think the entire society has to take interest in science," Rao said in a discussion at the NDTV Solutions summit.


The noted scientist added that the position of science as a discipline in India is at the bottom of the value system in the society.

"Science is very down in the value system in India. How much does the Indian society respect science? Science comes at the bottom of the list... If science has to succeed they have to have a better support," he said.

To compete with the rest of the world, India has to create institutions where young people can work enthusiastically, he felt.

Nobel laureate and biologist Venkataraman Ramakrishnan said India must invest in molecular biology to take giant strides in progress and must focus on its own intellectual property.

Noted agriculture scientist MS Swaminathan expressed concern over the stagnation in agricultural research.

"Our country still has large untapped production reservoir and there is an urgent need to tap its potential to bring a second green revolution," Swaminathan, also know as the father of the green revolution in India, added.

Tata Consultancy Services CEO Natarajan Chandrasekaran emphasized that a majority of India's problems can be solved with technology.

"IT has a huge role to play, particularly in dealing with corruption. It will bring in transparency, everything will be real-time," he added.

On the need to develop teaching in the country, Rao said he has approached the Planning Commission to develop a programme of making teaching a national mission in the country for the next five years.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Victor » 14 Dec 2013 22:15

Sagar G wrote:
ALERT..."The industry has to support (science), which has not happened till now. Most of the science money has come from the government. In the US or Cambridge, about 40-45 per cent of the money comes from the industry.

The eminent Bharat Ratna scientist forgot to mention that in "the US or Cambridge" :roll:, industry is free to compete for the manufacture and sale of war material, the leading generator of scientific advancement in any country--aircraft, helicopters, ships, tanks, artillery, missiles-- and it is therefore in its interest to invest in general science R&D. In la la land, these areas are reserved for politically driven public sector "companies" (more like schemes) long after the social systems that created them collapsed. By the Grace of Almighty God, private industry has been allowed to compete in automobiles after many decades in la la land and it has naturally and duly invested in R&D in this area, not just in India but worldwide. Private industry doesn't invest in R&D for the betterment of mankind "just because".

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19658
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 14 Dec 2013 23:13

Even in some other sectors, indian pvt sector has not exactly consistently invested in R&D to the levels, companies elsewhere do. They are improving, but a lot of the firms are still running at volumes/low-middle tech products and don't wish to invest in anything high end. IT industry is a perfect example, running on the basis of services contracts off the basis of managing foreign IP owned products.
And if the GOI invests, the average bureaucrat does not want to be seen as favoring one firm or the other. Its safer to invest in a DPSU which is owned by the Indian state. And even there, the margins are being put back into dividends which go back to the Fin Min to make up for the MNREGA etc. No win situation.

govardhanks
BRFite
Posts: 220
Joined: 08 Jun 2009 23:12
Location: Earth

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby govardhanks » 15 Dec 2013 08:14

Purely my opinion

a huge market and huge profit, makes companies go crazy, so that they will start investing in R&D.
Investments in R&D always does not bear fruits. It is like you spend 100 crore rupees for making a cheap car (because of market and demand) and you could get only 10 lakhs more than what you spent.

When we dig for reasons many of these issue stand on only two points TIME and MONEY. The excellent timing of our present govt has brought us here. Best model to study and learn and devise new plans in this whole scenario is "TATA NANO CAR" :roll: . There are few marginal success stories seen in case of Indian Pharma companies although they always produce generics. There investment is based on divide and rule policy :idea: ,
(when we cannot make new product we make existing product the best in the world).

Its my inner feeling that LCA which we are think is going to be cheap, will eventually surpass the cost of SAAB Gripen in future. then we should not be worried, learn the lesson and start a new plan. Timing in investment is very important , but WE NEVER LEARN FAST . Do we?

Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Sagar G » 15 Dec 2013 13:48

Ignorant people generally come up with our automobile industry example as being a "proof" of our huge advancement in pvt. sector R&D. For such la la land vassies they should go and check the inner content of an automobile like engine, gearbox, transmission shaft which are critical tech for any automobile and see for themselves how many Indian automobile companies are there at the top rubbing shoulder with foreign OEM's. Again would like to ALERT that it will be a shock for la la land people.

A few pages back people can take a look at an article about Hero (formerly Hero Honda) company and it's status regarding technological achievements. People having a bit of common sense will be able to decipher the prevalent condition in India regarding "pvt. R&D".


govardhanks
BRFite
Posts: 220
Joined: 08 Jun 2009 23:12
Location: Earth

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby govardhanks » 16 Dec 2013 16:31

Sagar G wrote:Ignorant people generally come up with our automobile industry example as being a "proof" of our huge advancement in pvt. sector R&D. For such la la land vassies they should go and check the inner content of an automobile like engine, gearbox, transmission shaft which are critical tech for any automobile and see for themselves how many Indian automobile companies are there at the top rubbing shoulder with foreign OEM's. Again would like to ALERT that it will be a shock for la la land people.

A few pages back people can take a look at an article about Hero (formerly Hero Honda) company and it's status regarding technological achievements. People having a bit of common sense will be able to decipher the prevalent condition in India regarding "pvt. R&D".


The car example what I gave implies to timing. Imagine the same car introduced at least five years before. I was in some International conference in Ahmedabad, where one old guy was so proud about this car that he was challenging a US scientist openly that whether they can produce them? :P

Let that be there-

1. Can you give some better example or model for successful R and D by private or government sector?.

2. Inner content of automobiles.. :rotfl: Our metallurgy knowledge is so limited that, we don't even know how to extract Titanium and Zirconium in large scale despite of having large natural deposits.

3. Engine? :rotfl: Tell one Indian indigenous engine with a 1500 to 1800 hp. (**** no personal attacks I am keeping quiet!) .

4. List those Indian companies rubbing shoulders with foreign OEMs?

5. No shock here ... Many people in are paid actors, don't believe everything blindly politicians, media, even our own Research people..

6. Do you know what others call Brahmos as? a copy cat version of Yakhont missile. Now you tell what should I believe?

My technology knowledge might be limited but I am worried where are we heading into? La la land?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19658
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 16 Dec 2013 17:54

This thread was meant for cataloging actual achievements in indian industry, not the usual x vs y contests, so please take those discussions elsewhere to another thread.

Responding to the parts of your post which are germane.

1. Can you give some better example or model for successful R and D by private or government sector?.


There are many models and products developed in Defence R&D by the govt sector. Look through this thread itself and there will be examples.

2. Inner content of automobiles.. Our metallurgy knowledge is so limited that, we don't even know how to extract Titanium and Zirconium in large scale despite of having large natural deposits.


Considerable work has gone on in extracting titanium and making it into a process. Hitherto however, the availability of metals and alloys from the commercial market or partners like Russia has meant that it was not a focus area.

Lets be clear here, India never aspired for great power status which focuses on militarisation and hence industrialization, so both a lower priority. Hence, many of these aspects were overlooked and not invested in. Even the OFB was only expanded post 1971, that is 24 years after independence. Defence, strategic issues, development of the private sector, license raj - all these issues went hand in hand when successive Govts placed socialist planning-welfare state politics as their central policy.

Which does not mean that now, steps are not being taken to address limitations as the strategic aspects become apparent - eg SAIL/DMRL steel replacing Russian steel for warship building and so forth.

6. Do you know what others call Brahmos as? a copy cat version of Yakhont missile. Now you tell what should I believe?


I see this a lot. X says this, y magazine says this.. ergo, concerns, worries.

Tell me something, you have access to the net, ergo the ability to search.

Those should tell you that Brahmos is a Yakhont derivative with Indian systems within as far as the missile is concerned. And when it comes to the system, Indian designed and developed FCS, C3I, storage and TEL (on local trucks if you want to nitpick the Tatra variants).

Today, the Brahmos is far more developed than the baseline Yakhont as well, since it comes in various flavors:
1. Ship, air and shore launched AShM; sub variant tested; multiple Blocks
2. Ship and land launched Ground strike; air variant in tests; multiple Blocks
3. Hypersonic version in development

Thing is as a product - Brahmos has seen far more development than Yakhont, which latter system simply does not exist in so many flavors and nor does it have any significant Indian content.

So don't bother about what others say.

Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Sagar G » 16 Dec 2013 18:57

govardhanks I don't know what you are smoking but you need to re read my posts again and if you still don't understand my posts then ask me to clarify, nevertheless I would answer some of your questions


govardhanks wrote:1. Can you give some better example or model for successful R and D by private or government sector?.


Akash, INSAS, Arjun, Agni series, various kind of radars, ammunition's, military bridges, various EW systems and many more inducted systems. LCA and Nag will soon join the list once production versions reaches the hand of the customer. These systems have pvt. contribution to them as well.

Regarding pvt. R&D I have already given my opinion about it before and other than Nano nothing comes to my mind right now.

govardhanks wrote:2. Inner content of automobiles.. :rotfl: Our metallurgy knowledge is so limited that, we don't even know how to extract Titanium and Zirconium in large scale despite of having large natural deposits.


Don't know about Zirconium but you need to catch up regarding Titanium.

TECHNOLOGY FOR COMMERCIAL PRODUCTION OF TITANIUM SPONGE

Antony to inaugurate titanium sponge plant based on DRDO technology in Kerala

Both are pretty old links.

govardhanks wrote:3. Engine? :rotfl: Tell one Indian indigenous engine with a 1500 to 1800 hp. (**** no personal attacks I am keeping quiet!) .


Without huge orders nobody is going to make one whether it is India or some other country. DRDO has already initiated project to make a 1500 HP engine for the future battle tank which builds on a similar previous efforts.

govardhanks wrote:6. Do you know what others call Brahmos as? a copy cat version of Yakhont missile. Now you tell what should I believe?


Why don't you visit their site see the contributions from both sides and then make an opinion about it ???

govardhanks
BRFite
Posts: 220
Joined: 08 Jun 2009 23:12
Location: Earth

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby govardhanks » 16 Dec 2013 19:20

Since it is been said this part of forum is only for cataloging achievements by Indian companies. I do not want to disturb it.
I do have some fine criticism for those examples, this might not be the proper place.

I was aware of titanium sponge method, but do you know that despite of it Indian govt. allowed full FDI and a Russian firm is presently producing it, (principal reason being yield was low).
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2008/02/titanium-new-strategic-gold.html

I am also aware of DRDO engine project , I read it here only they went till 1300hp and don't know what happened after that. Brahmos site so far does not have a word that it is a derivative, but there are links somewhere telling other stories.

jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5143
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby jamwal » 17 Dec 2013 00:05

DRDO parachute to drop heavy combat vehicles from IL-76

Enhancing the Army Special Forces' capabilities to airdrop combat vehicles and heavy equipment, DRDO has developed a a heavy system which can drop loads up to 16 tonnes from the IL-76 transport aircraft using parachutes.

"A 16-ton capacity heavy drop system (HDS) consisting of a platform and a highly advanced system of parachutes to drop loads consisting of military stores such as vehicles (including BMP class), supplies and ammunition from IL-76 heavy lift aircraft has been designed and developed and demonstrated," DRDO spokesperson Ravi Gupta said in a release.



Three prototypes of the system developed by an Agra-based DRDO lab have been realised and two successful drops meeting the performance parameters have been demonstrated, they said.

On the development, DRDO chief Avinash Chander said, "The system offered 'drop and drive' capability and once inducted, the system, a force multiplier, will considerably enhance the capabilities of armed forces."

P-7 heavy drop system (P-7 HDS), paradropped as composite unit termed as 'Load', has been developed for paradropping military stores/equipment such as military vehicles and ammunition trolleys from IL-76 aircraft and comprises two main sub-systems namely Platform sub-system and Parachute Sub-system.

The platform has a set of removable wheels which provides transportability for load to be taken to the airfield by means of towing it behind a suitable vehicle once the load is prepared at the distantly located unit.

These parachutes reduce the descent rate to desired speed at touchdown.

On impact with ground, parachutes are released by automatic disengage unit (ADU) to avoid dragging and toppling of load due to high speed winds.

The design features built in the system ensure aircraft safety during the separation of such a large body in a foolproof manner as well as smooth deployment of parachutes and landing of load at pre-designated target point.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19658
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 17 Dec 2013 00:48

govardhanks wrote:Since it is been said this part of forum is only for cataloging achievements by Indian companies. I do not want to disturb it.
I do have some fine criticism for those examples, this might not be the proper place.


If your criticism has validity to it, then it would be one thing. Given the fact that you are completely unaware about Brahmos, the one program that has tons of information on it, ts pretty doubtful that your criticism about any examples will be "fine" let alone accurate.

I was aware of titanium sponge method, but do you know that despite of it Indian govt. allowed full FDI and a Russian firm is presently producing it, (principal reason being yield was low).
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2008/02/titanium-new-strategic-gold.html


Are you aware of the history of the program? That it was started as a TD, worked, and is presently being scaled up. You post a link from 5 years back and think that folks here are unaware of it. Wonderful.

And that 3 years later, it was started to produce sponge @ 500T/yr capacity.
http://news.oneindia.in/2011/02/26/anto ... d0121.html

I am also aware of DRDO engine project , I read it here only they went till 1300hp and don't know what happened after that.


So if you don't know, whats with all the categorical belief that there is no successful program and what the current priorities are.

Brahmos site so far does not have a word that it is a derivative, but there are links somewhere telling other stories.


This is what is so bizarre. You are clearly completely ill informed about the program, have been given enough information to go find data on your own, but instead of doing so, you will persist with this bizarre "there are links elsewhere telling other stories".

As if its some conspiracy theory, that only you know about, and by not bringing it here, you are somehow sparing us some dark secret. :roll:

Do you think it is BrahMos site's job to spoonfeed you this information or the duty of the other people here? Throughout the program, they have been open about collaboration with NPO Mash, what do you think NPO Mash leveraged for its 49% contribution?

And do some of your own research.

Go look up actual program history details of how it was launched. Spend some time figuring out what the Indian side makes, compare it to Yakhont.

See the number of variants the Brahmos has today, marked by tests for each system. Even NPO Mash notes the unique capability of Brahmos is that it is an "universal" missile, meaning different configs/platforms/missions.

When you do all this, then you get the basis to understand the program.

Let alone make "fine criticisms". Right now, you are wading around the dark, thinking you have profound insight which others don't seem to get.

When the reality is that its known by most serious folks apart from the occasional journalist, who despite all the spoonfeeding thinks he has discovered something profound by figuring out the Yakhont exists and gasp! the Brahmos is similar. Never mind the missile exists in more configurations and has been tested extensively.

Besides which a missile "system" includes more than the missile itself and which is where the Brahmos significantly differs from the Yakhont which relies purely on Russian HW/FCS/TELs.

Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Sagar G » 17 Dec 2013 01:10

govardhanks wrote:I was aware of titanium sponge method, but do you know that despite of it Indian govt. allowed full FDI and a Russian firm is presently producing it, (principal reason being yield was low).
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2008/02/titanium-new-strategic-gold.html


If you were "aware" about the Titanium issue then why waste people's time asking questions about things you are already aware of ??? You also need to take a look at what you have posted to find the answer for why it is being done and as Karan garu has already pointed out indigenous production capacities are being scaled up.

govardhanks wrote:I am also aware of DRDO engine project , I read it here only they went till 1300hp and don't know what happened after that. Brahmos site so far does not have a word that it is a derivative, but there are links somewhere telling other stories.


So what if it is a derivative ??? What's wrong about that ??? In the process our industry has learned something and now even the seeker and ramjet engine are being researched so as to be made in India. What's your problem with it ??? Keep your pet peeves out of here if you don't have anything useful to say.

Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2053
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Kakarat » 22 Dec 2013 16:51

From militaryphotos.net

Tata Advanced Systems Limited producing Sikorsky S-92 cabins

Image
Image
Image
Image

More in this Link

Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2053
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Kakarat » 22 Dec 2013 16:58

From militaryphotos.net

Mahindra Aerospace's manufacturing plant

Image
Image
Image
Image

More in this Link

Brando
BRFite
Posts: 675
Joined: 26 Feb 2008 06:18

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Brando » 22 Dec 2013 17:29

^ Compared to the HAL assembly workshop for the LCA, the private sector seems to have invested more in capital infrastructure.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19658
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 22 Dec 2013 22:21

They have more available funds.

HAL and every D/PSU is being bled dry by the Fin Min in order to support the obscene amounts required for all the NREGA boondoggles. Most of their profits are repatriated as dividends to GOI.

nash
BRFite
Posts: 884
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby nash » 22 Dec 2013 23:09

Karan M wrote:They have more available funds.

HAL and every D/PSU is being bled dry by the Fin Min in order to support the obscene amounts required for all the NREGA boondoggles. Most of their profits are repatriated as dividends to GOI.


May be this is the reason many people in this forum so much enthusiastic about private companies participation in Defense projects.

they might no have the relevant technical knowledge base of DRDO or HAL or other DPSUs but they are much better in resource management and meeting the deadline.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3033
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby abhik » 22 Dec 2013 23:46

Exactly how does one compare the private sector's so called screw driver assembly to DRDO's or DPSU's R&D products?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19658
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 26 Dec 2013 11:16



Avinash Chander interview, very recent

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19658
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 27 Dec 2013 00:37

http://bel-india.com/node/569

Money that should have gone into products, capex again being repatriated to GOI for sustaining some vote bank yojana.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby SaiK » 27 Dec 2013 03:18

disinvestment or having private participation has to increase to more than 50%. that is the day, we will advance at a faster rate. still, it is mandatory for gov establishment to hold the drivers, regulations and security aspects.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19658
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 27 Dec 2013 03:36

you cant have that by handing over majority control. i'd support FDI limits being taken to 40% and not more and strict observance of who controls what. otherwise some indian pvt firms are unscrupulous enough to move from agricultural produce to weapons manufacture overnight, and get a license and offer their partner full control of subsidiary through shady 3'rd party companies as investors, but which are actually owned by the partner. by doing nothing, but providing the pvt partner veneer, the indian firm makes cool profits. this is the sort of stuff we are beginning to face and which must be stopped for the benefit of the real indigenous efforts led by real pvt champions/industry.

RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5180
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby RoyG » 27 Dec 2013 04:41

Honestly, I can't believe that limits like 40-50% are being proposed. What the hell are people on BRF so afraid of?

PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby PratikDas » 27 Dec 2013 05:46

^^^ The majority ownership belonging to or later being sold to someone with deep pockets who could afford to shut down production at a time of critical need, for example.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Victor » 27 Dec 2013 06:44

Karan M wrote:...some indian pvt firms are unscrupulous enough...

Well so are Indian defense PSUs like BEML of Tatra fame. But this is more a reflection of the rot that has been allowed to set in over the past couple of decades. Nobody should seriously expect the Indian govt to lounge around watching the proceedings without any oversight if there ever were a major disinvestment. A whip needs to be cracked and hopefully it will if we get a semi-clean nationalistic govt in the center that is genuinely panicked about the status quo and doesn't give more urgency to clean lungis than to guns, ships and aircraft.

There needs to be outrage at a GTRE that has sucked up resources for over half a century and has yet to provide us with a single Indian engine, forget something as cutting edge as the Kaveri. No need to mention the other DPSU's "achievements". Nope, barring a miracle, our best hope right now is a very large dose of private ownership making sure that the baby is not thrown out with the bathwater. This will remain the situation until the critical defense PSUs become as (or ideally more) attractive to work in as an L&T or Tata.

partha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4005
Joined: 02 Jul 2010 15:25

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby partha » 27 Dec 2013 08:31

Long back I had watched a program on ibnlive about India's crown jewels. One of the episodes was on Shri Kota Harinarayana of LCA fame. He mentioned a fascinating story of how a small scale industry guy in Mumbai was able to manufacture a part of LCA's air conditioning system which involved bending a high temperature, high strength material. Manufactured part was of "impeccable" quality. No Govt company was able to manufacture this part of the air conditioning system and Harinarayana got the reference of this Mumbai guy from his friends in ISRO.

Watch from 3:15



I wonder how many such unknown small scale industries are out there with capabilities but no opportunities. High time we open up the defence sector. It has worked in US. It has worked for non defence sectors in India. There is no reason to believe it will not work for defence sector.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby SaiK » 27 Dec 2013 08:59

RoyG wrote:Honestly, I can't believe that limits like 40-50% are being proposed. What the hell are people on BRF so afraid of?

MUTUs and MPTPs. :mrgreen:

nash
BRFite
Posts: 884
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby nash » 27 Dec 2013 09:50

Many people had similar kind of apprehension when there was proposal of FDI in insurance sector, though Insurance is totally different from defense sector but we can have analogy that if we follow the similar way of forming an regulatory or monitory body like IRDA to stop any anomalies for FDI in defense and divestment of DPSUs. Also, subsequently upgrade the rules and regulations as per needs, it can be a humble beginning.

Apart from this, GoI should also need to restructure some DPSUs, like HAL. HAL need to disintegrate into atleast 3 parts, i.e. One for Fixed wing , another for rotary wing and one for engines of any kind. And then go for the divestment and FDI.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: D.Mahesh and 78 guests