BEML for the capital it got from GOI and with so many years in the field of earth moving etc, is still not able design & build a good heavy duty engine for Arjun is a sad thing. They had collabration with US, Czech, Polish, GDR, and Russian companies. All the time they were getting CKDs or TOT supplied manufacture, nothing in house, they were in rolling stock for IR and yet we had to go GE Alstom to get the new SS coah for high speed trains 160 kmpHJCage wrote:BEML is doing a lot of SKD bashing with foreign collab. My question is- why should BEML vehicles w/these foreign partners be given any preference unless BEML can show that their contribution is significant, and they fill a niche which the local pvt/other public industry doesnt fill?
BEMLs work with DRDO etc is laudable, but then even so, PSUs (or pvt firms) shouldnt just tie up with foreign firms for the margins and do SKD/CKD bashing- same holds for Tata as well, with their recent announcements. I wish there was an transparent way to audit each of these firms and claims, as there is for the public sector which is at least beholden to GOI and audit reports are public.
India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector
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vina
- BRF Oldie
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How is /was BEML different from HAL and all the other babu driven defense PSUs? .. It is same same. All they can do is bolt togther CKD/SKD stuff and continue making the same stuff for 50 years like the Shaktiman was or the Ambassador was in the name of indigenization.John Snow wrote:BEML for the capital it got from GOI and with so many years in the field of earth moving etc, is still not able design & build a good heavy duty engine for Arjun is a sad thing. They had collabration with US, Czech, Polish, GDR, and Russian companies. All the time they were getting CKDs or TOT supplied manufacture, nothing in house, they were in rolling stock for IR and yet we had to go GE Alstom to get the new SS coah for high speed trains 160 kmpH
There is a difference in that HALs indigenization drive has paid dividends, and according to both the IAF & audit data (to corroborate the former), they do manufacture most of the aircraft airframe with attendant parts, as well as engines inhouse. Most of these are at the 80-90% level.
The ones that they dont are usually items which were not part of the licensing agreement or not cost effective to manage inhouse. Now, as part of a reasonably ambitious indigenization drive even these are being addressed. That apart, HAL has been spending on R&D- its still not enough to make it system competent but it has paid dividends in terms of aircraft design & upgrade. Over the next decade, we'll see the effect of the R&D investment cleared over the previous one. Now, when HAL quotes for the LOH requirement, they are offering their own design albeit using bought out parts like engines etc, but still it is substantially Indian in terms of effort and design.
BEML, while it has played a good role in adapting TATRA units for missile vehicles, radars etc, still hasnt reached that stage.
What I am objecting to, is them taking a Polish product or whatever, just putting it up on a TATRA and then claiming the indigenization mantle, which is what I suspect this command post thingy is. Unless it is a joint DRDO BEML-BEL kind of thing in which case I am mistaken.
If its not, this import, and claim its Indian thingy, shouldnt be allowed. Now, if they had their own internal R&D unit, which designs and develops the whole thing, with some Polish systems which will ultimately be manufactured in India or there is an iron clad clause they will be available throughout - thats ok.
The ones that they dont are usually items which were not part of the licensing agreement or not cost effective to manage inhouse. Now, as part of a reasonably ambitious indigenization drive even these are being addressed. That apart, HAL has been spending on R&D- its still not enough to make it system competent but it has paid dividends in terms of aircraft design & upgrade. Over the next decade, we'll see the effect of the R&D investment cleared over the previous one. Now, when HAL quotes for the LOH requirement, they are offering their own design albeit using bought out parts like engines etc, but still it is substantially Indian in terms of effort and design.
BEML, while it has played a good role in adapting TATRA units for missile vehicles, radars etc, still hasnt reached that stage.
What I am objecting to, is them taking a Polish product or whatever, just putting it up on a TATRA and then claiming the indigenization mantle, which is what I suspect this command post thingy is. Unless it is a joint DRDO BEML-BEL kind of thing in which case I am mistaken.
If its not, this import, and claim its Indian thingy, shouldnt be allowed. Now, if they had their own internal R&D unit, which designs and develops the whole thing, with some Polish systems which will ultimately be manufactured in India or there is an iron clad clause they will be available throughout - thats ok.
Not sure how the defense sector will shape up but in the power plant construction and heavy engineering sector, the GoI mandates that during the bidding process, the PSUs automatically get a ~10% benefit in their bids. Meaning that if the PSU's bid is 10% (or less) higher than the next lowest bid, the PSU will get the job. That is the main reason why BHEL and BEML have survived this long. Now, the only way they can survive is to import Chinese and Korean equipment and rebadge them as their own due to the non investment in R&D all these years.
Some interesting data is in the following that may help your current discussion on DPSU.
Action Taken by the Government on the recommendations contained in the Ninth Report of the Committee (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on ‘Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs)
Coming to BEL,
In-depth Study and Critical Review of Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL)
Action Taken by the Government on the recommendations contained in the Ninth Report of the Committee (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on ‘Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs)
Coming to BEL,
In-depth Study and Critical Review of Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL)
IIRC BHEL has not been able to scale up to meet demand, but otherwise its doing pretty well, even accounting for Govt handouts. And that leaves a substantial room for private players. Our power sector is crippled because of red tapism iirc and not because of the PSU issue per se.Vick wrote:Not sure how the defense sector will shape up but in the power plant construction and heavy engineering sector, the GoI mandates that during the bidding process, the PSUs automatically get a ~10% benefit in their bids. Meaning that if the PSU's bid is 10% (or less) higher than the next lowest bid, the PSU will get the job. That is the main reason why BHEL and BEML have survived this long. Now, the only way they can survive is to import Chinese and Korean equipment and rebadge them as their own due to the non investment in R&D all these years.
In terms of capabilities, Vina et al had pointed out that BHEL did some fairly good work- I have been to their production facilities and they are tech competent, but havent really tracked their profile over the years.
BEML- does some good work for DRDO et al and supports ventures, but what bugs me is that occasionally they do use the PSU angle to score orders and dont appear to spend significantly on R&D.
In terms of defence PSUs, Keltec just came into the black, ECIL did so sometime back and BEL has been profitable. Latter two spend substantially on R&D and it has paid off in core programs. So they can compete with the pvt sector if they are given the same decision making freedom as the pvt sector enjoys in terms of day to day stuff, and esp payscales. OTOH, I think the GOI should maintain a majority stake in all three firms because of the strategic nature of their work. Same goes for BHEL ...BEML...dont really know, as their niche area in vehicles already has AL, Tata and even others, who could come up with similar stuff, and hence GOI should be an equal partner, or even think of long term divestment unless BEML starts spending far more on R&D and becomes as critical as the other PSUs are.
BEML also makes specialized rolling stock like tank/truck flatbeds for IR (also suburban train wagons) and is building a factory to supply something to ISRO..I dunno what parts but the woodsheds look pretty large. they also make some specialized vehicles for IA bridges and such imo...not counting Tatra assembly.
nothing very strategic. if needed GOI can retain the strategic part and divest to M&M, AL or Tata or even let the strategic part go to these three reliable partners...its not as if Ratan Tata will flee the nation with blueprints of MSLV.
nothing very strategic. if needed GOI can retain the strategic part and divest to M&M, AL or Tata or even let the strategic part go to these three reliable partners...its not as if Ratan Tata will flee the nation with blueprints of MSLV.
Old but interesting
Interview with SM Vaidya Divisional Head, PCS Division Godrej
Ch: What were the challenges in the manufacturing of the Vikas Engine?
SMV: In the Vikas engine we had two major challenges: First, machining of an aluminum injector where the oxidizer and fuel had to impinge at thousands of points with immaculate precision. The second challenge was fabrication of the thrust chamber. As regards the aluminium injector, we overcame the challenge by developing a special purpose machine with 2 heads simultaneously drilling with great precision. And for the thrust chamber, we had to do undertake many tasks that we had never attempted before. For instance, we had to develop the expander ourselves without any external assistance whatsoever. We had to also develop machining programmes for five access milling. This was done by our Tooling Division engineers – Bharat Samant and Parag Shah with the help of Dr. Salinkar of IIT, Mumbai. Finally, we had to develop an entirely different welding protocol to weld a a cobalt based alloy. We did it successfully.
Ch: What is the one single achievement, professional or personal that makes you very proud?
I am very attached to the Cryogenic engine. When we were developing it, I had gone on my first trip abroad to Russia. The Russians challenged us and told us that despite exposing us to all the facilities they had, we will never be able to develop it here. In open meetings they have said that the engine was developed in Russia in 1965 and it will take at least till 2065 for it to be developed in India. Today, I am very happy that our flight engine is getting integrated and if everything goes well at ISRO, this December we should have the GSLV which will carry engines produced
by Godrej.
Interview with SM Vaidya Divisional Head, PCS Division Godrej
Ch: What were the challenges in the manufacturing of the Vikas Engine?
SMV: In the Vikas engine we had two major challenges: First, machining of an aluminum injector where the oxidizer and fuel had to impinge at thousands of points with immaculate precision. The second challenge was fabrication of the thrust chamber. As regards the aluminium injector, we overcame the challenge by developing a special purpose machine with 2 heads simultaneously drilling with great precision. And for the thrust chamber, we had to do undertake many tasks that we had never attempted before. For instance, we had to develop the expander ourselves without any external assistance whatsoever. We had to also develop machining programmes for five access milling. This was done by our Tooling Division engineers – Bharat Samant and Parag Shah with the help of Dr. Salinkar of IIT, Mumbai. Finally, we had to develop an entirely different welding protocol to weld a a cobalt based alloy. We did it successfully.
Ch: What is the one single achievement, professional or personal that makes you very proud?
I am very attached to the Cryogenic engine. When we were developing it, I had gone on my first trip abroad to Russia. The Russians challenged us and told us that despite exposing us to all the facilities they had, we will never be able to develop it here. In open meetings they have said that the engine was developed in Russia in 1965 and it will take at least till 2065 for it to be developed in India. Today, I am very happy that our flight engine is getting integrated and if everything goes well at ISRO, this December we should have the GSLV which will carry engines produced
by Godrej.
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gopal.suri
- BRFite
- Posts: 191
- Joined: 26 May 2007 17:22
I had been to this PCS division once with FI publisher.
All I saw was This (only the silver part) type of huge containers being made with the help of water cutters at high pressure. . Then there was a chart + diagram of a brahmos engine. He had also told us about the challanges of the cryogenic engine and maraging steel etc.
All I saw was This (only the silver part) type of huge containers being made with the help of water cutters at high pressure. . Then there was a chart + diagram of a brahmos engine. He had also told us about the challanges of the cryogenic engine and maraging steel etc.
Israel eyes Tata rocket launchers
[quote]
India’s defence technology expertise is finally making a mark in the global platform. Israeli Military Industries (IMI), a Tel Aviv-based manufacturer of weapon systems, is planning to use India’s rocket launcher technology to upgrade and replace its existing American systems.
The Tatas, who had teamed up with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), to make Pinaka rocket launchers could also become part of the joint production team for the Israeli weapons contract. Pinaka is mainly used to destroy enemy troop concentration areas and communication centres in air terminal complexes. Pinaka was the first defence contract given to private companies in India. The strategic electronics division of Tata Power is manufacturing Pinaka launchers along with Larsen & Toubro.
Recently, two Tata group companies--Tata Power and Tata Advanced Systems--had signed agreements with Rafael and Israel Aviation Industries to manufacture a wide range of defence products.
The Israeli contract could soon make its way into India as the DRDO and IMI have completed several rounds of discussions. Senior executives from companies like the Tatas were also part of the exercise. “We have made a demonstration to IMI,â€
[quote]
India’s defence technology expertise is finally making a mark in the global platform. Israeli Military Industries (IMI), a Tel Aviv-based manufacturer of weapon systems, is planning to use India’s rocket launcher technology to upgrade and replace its existing American systems.
The Tatas, who had teamed up with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), to make Pinaka rocket launchers could also become part of the joint production team for the Israeli weapons contract. Pinaka is mainly used to destroy enemy troop concentration areas and communication centres in air terminal complexes. Pinaka was the first defence contract given to private companies in India. The strategic electronics division of Tata Power is manufacturing Pinaka launchers along with Larsen & Toubro.
Recently, two Tata group companies--Tata Power and Tata Advanced Systems--had signed agreements with Rafael and Israel Aviation Industries to manufacture a wide range of defence products.
The Israeli contract could soon make its way into India as the DRDO and IMI have completed several rounds of discussions. Senior executives from companies like the Tatas were also part of the exercise. “We have made a demonstration to IMI,â€
Tatas, Rafael in manufacture and maintenance deal for 5th generation air defence systems .
Israeli armaments major Rafael, is set to sign an agreement with Tata Power for parts manufacture and maintenance of air defence systems (ADS), which the company expects to supply to the Indian Air Force as part of a Rs4,500 crore deal aimed at phasing out decades-old, Russian supplied surface to air missile (SAM) systems.
Rafael, which has been asked to supply quick reaction surface-to-air and air-to-air Python-5 and Derby ADS to the Indian Armed Forces, will sign the production transfer programme agreement with Tata Power this fiscal.
The Israeli missiles, which are capable of targeting low-flying enemy aircraft, will replace the IAF's ageing Russian SAM-6 and 7 missile systems. The Israeli systems will be used in tandem with the indigenously developed Akash SAM system, which have recently been cleared for induction by the Indian Air Force.
''Under the proposed agreement, Tata Power will manufacture some parts of the air defence systems and do the maintenance work post delivery,'' Rafael's director for air-to-air and air defence systems, Oron Oriol said.
Each unit of the air defence systems consists of a command and control vehicle fitted with radar, along with four batteries equipped with four missiles and support units to supply and service the vehicle.
''This is a unique and advanced air defence system and India can make good use of it,'' Oriol said. ''We expect to sign the deal very soon, hopefully before March 31.''
The deal was cleared by the Cabinet committee on security last month and is expected to cost Rs 4,500 crore.
The fifth generation surface-to-air and air-to-air Python-5 missile can be launched for very short as well as beyond-visual range interceptions. It has greater kill probability and excellent resistance to countermeasures irrespective of evasive target manoeuvres or deployment of countermeasures.
The Python-5's unique full sphere performance is achieved by a combination of lock-on-after-launch and excellent acquisition and tracking capabilities.
Its dual waveband focal plane array seeker and sophisticated algorithms enable acquisition of even small, low signature targets in look-down, adverse background and cloudy environments.
Derby is an active radar surface-to-air and air-to-air missile. It's operational flexibility and multi-shot capability enables use during the day or night and in all-weather conditions.
Together, the Python-5 and Derby offer superior fighting capabilities that ensure outstanding air superiority in 21st century warfare.
Israeli armaments major Rafael, is set to sign an agreement with Tata Power for parts manufacture and maintenance of air defence systems (ADS), which the company expects to supply to the Indian Air Force as part of a Rs4,500 crore deal aimed at phasing out decades-old, Russian supplied surface to air missile (SAM) systems.
Rafael, which has been asked to supply quick reaction surface-to-air and air-to-air Python-5 and Derby ADS to the Indian Armed Forces, will sign the production transfer programme agreement with Tata Power this fiscal.
The Israeli missiles, which are capable of targeting low-flying enemy aircraft, will replace the IAF's ageing Russian SAM-6 and 7 missile systems. The Israeli systems will be used in tandem with the indigenously developed Akash SAM system, which have recently been cleared for induction by the Indian Air Force.
''Under the proposed agreement, Tata Power will manufacture some parts of the air defence systems and do the maintenance work post delivery,'' Rafael's director for air-to-air and air defence systems, Oron Oriol said.
Each unit of the air defence systems consists of a command and control vehicle fitted with radar, along with four batteries equipped with four missiles and support units to supply and service the vehicle.
''This is a unique and advanced air defence system and India can make good use of it,'' Oriol said. ''We expect to sign the deal very soon, hopefully before March 31.''
The deal was cleared by the Cabinet committee on security last month and is expected to cost Rs 4,500 crore.
The fifth generation surface-to-air and air-to-air Python-5 missile can be launched for very short as well as beyond-visual range interceptions. It has greater kill probability and excellent resistance to countermeasures irrespective of evasive target manoeuvres or deployment of countermeasures.
The Python-5's unique full sphere performance is achieved by a combination of lock-on-after-launch and excellent acquisition and tracking capabilities.
Its dual waveband focal plane array seeker and sophisticated algorithms enable acquisition of even small, low signature targets in look-down, adverse background and cloudy environments.
Derby is an active radar surface-to-air and air-to-air missile. It's operational flexibility and multi-shot capability enables use during the day or night and in all-weather conditions.
Together, the Python-5 and Derby offer superior fighting capabilities that ensure outstanding air superiority in 21st century warfare.
Yes
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/ ... Spyder.htm
With Astra when ready, an Aslesha derivative can be combined to create a Derby type Spyder eqvt.
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/ ... Spyder.htm
With Astra when ready, an Aslesha derivative can be combined to create a Derby type Spyder eqvt.
White Lies by the GOI
No shortage of scientists at any level. Yeah sure.
Attrition is the same as IT at 18% whatever- yeah, that makes things alright. [/url]
No shortage of scientists at any level. Yeah sure.
Attrition is the same as IT at 18% whatever- yeah, that makes things alright. [/url]
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negi
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 13112
- Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
- Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .
There is an important factor to be considered i.e. of the 18% figure being quoted for IT Industry majority of these actually are just changing employers within country (i.e. IT Industry as a whole looses nothing for its a closed system) .However the 18% attrition figure for DRDO and Co is a real cause of concern for the one's leaving a PSU (HAL,GTRE,DRDO etc ) wont go and join another PSU but most probably fly to massa land or a MNC in India.JCage wrote: No shortage of scientists at any level. Yeah sure.
Attrition is the same as IT at 18% whatever- yeah, that makes things alright.
There is another big problem that DRDO is facing, especially the electronics labs in B'lore and H'bad. Considering the work that these labs are doing, tech cos really look for people with that expertise, esp signal processing, communications and knowledge of algorithms.
What thats translated to is having a large number of interested engineering and science grads who join DRDO, get free training and expertise and leave for better paying jobs after 2-3 years, just after they have started contributing to projects meaningfully. its a big problem, especially since its become an institutionalized problem.
Plus, with the tech companies in DRDO's backyard (quite literally, if you've seen the area in Bangalore, where tech companies are right behind LRDE), its an ideal opportunity for young engineers.
What thats translated to is having a large number of interested engineering and science grads who join DRDO, get free training and expertise and leave for better paying jobs after 2-3 years, just after they have started contributing to projects meaningfully. its a big problem, especially since its become an institutionalized problem.
Plus, with the tech companies in DRDO's backyard (quite literally, if you've seen the area in Bangalore, where tech companies are right behind LRDE), its an ideal opportunity for young engineers.
I know someone who lives in a colony right behind this uber-park..and he
told me too that this 200 acres was drdo land earlier but marshy and with couple of large lakes.
now the son-in-law of a former K'tata CM who is 'closely tied' to a realty co wanted to develop this land. drdo was promised same land in outskirts and development started. the lowlying area was filled in leaving the lake infront of GTRE at a level 15 ft higherthan the ground floor of first building. the other lake was in back.
in 1st phase, iflex, moto, TI, samsung, lenovo moved in.
later cognizant, mphasis and sasken in three huge new buildings.
in middle of this another developers got one plot of land from a holdout
by promising him a dream house and built one. housing hp, target, juniper. the old guy was given a plot of land adjoining and not a scrap more. his sad looking house mostly rented out stands today in the rear.
developer A (the original) and B dont get along at all, anyone wanting to
go from HP-A to HP-B needs to come the long way.
there is even a small layout (krishnappa layout) behind the lake having
many beautiful high end homes.
iirc this same developer A now has the huge Manyata tech park on ORR
housing Philips and IBM among others. the land for this was denotified
from Arkavathy layout iirc - around 300 acres.
ADA , DARE and LRDE have the best leafy campuses. provided they go
vertical can easily house 10000 people each...land is not an issue for
them.
told me too that this 200 acres was drdo land earlier but marshy and with couple of large lakes.
now the son-in-law of a former K'tata CM who is 'closely tied' to a realty co wanted to develop this land. drdo was promised same land in outskirts and development started. the lowlying area was filled in leaving the lake infront of GTRE at a level 15 ft higherthan the ground floor of first building. the other lake was in back.
in 1st phase, iflex, moto, TI, samsung, lenovo moved in.
later cognizant, mphasis and sasken in three huge new buildings.
in middle of this another developers got one plot of land from a holdout
by promising him a dream house and built one. housing hp, target, juniper. the old guy was given a plot of land adjoining and not a scrap more. his sad looking house mostly rented out stands today in the rear.
developer A (the original) and B dont get along at all, anyone wanting to
go from HP-A to HP-B needs to come the long way.
there is even a small layout (krishnappa layout) behind the lake having
many beautiful high end homes.
iirc this same developer A now has the huge Manyata tech park on ORR
housing Philips and IBM among others. the land for this was denotified
from Arkavathy layout iirc - around 300 acres.
ADA , DARE and LRDE have the best leafy campuses. provided they go
vertical can easily house 10000 people each...land is not an issue for
them.
[url=http://www.drdo.org/dpi/combat.htm]INDIGENOUSLY DEVELOPED COMBAT ENGINEERING EQUIPMENT ENTERS SERVICE WITH INDIAN ARMYâ€
Life support system for Tejas pilots
Bangalore: A DRDO lab is developing an Integrated Life Support System (ILSS) that would allow pilots flying India's light combat aircraft, Tejas, breathe easily during long haul flights at high altitudes.
The city-based Defence Bioengineering and Electromedical Laboratory (DEBEL) says ILSS can generate oxygen to replenish its stock and ensure that the pilot is not deprived of the most essential component for a man's survival.
Speaking at a national science day function here, DEBEL Director, Dr V C Padaki, said the scientists has devised an On Board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS) which uses compressed air from the engine that has oxygen and nitrogen.
According to DEBEL, the system perfectly suited the needs of the pilots. While only 40 per cent of oxygen from the mix could be obtained when the aircraft flew at lower altitudes, up to 90 per cent of the same can be got at higher altitudes. The system also has an oxygen sensor and a back-up oxygen system to ensure a constant supply of oxygen for the pilot.
On the project costs, Padaki said "More important is the fact that it adds to our indigenous knowledge base, but we have started this project with an initial amount of Rs five crore in which at least five such systems would be developed." Presently the prototype version functions at the DEBEL laboratory, but plans involve putting the systems on trial once it is ready, expectedly in the next three years.
Probably Ramkrishna Hegde's SIL. He is a Sindhi. The Sindhi community by virtue of this factors(amongst others ) has managed to develop a good position in Bangalore.Singha wrote:
now the son-in-law of a former K'tata CM who is 'closely tied' to a realty co wanted to develop this land. drdo was promised same land in outskirts and development started. the lowlying area was filled in leaving the lake infront of GTRE at a level 15 ft higherthan the ground floor of first building. the other lake was in back.
Please do not misinterpret this post.
This is an OBOGs which is in development and will be deployed on the LCA. All of other IAF aircraft -bar MKI I think, carry oxygen bottles instead which is the regular method and developed and currently used on the LCA.NRao wrote:In 2008?A DRDO lab is developing an Integrated Life Support System (ILSS) that would allow pilots flying India's light combat aircraft, Tejas, breathe easily during long haul flights at high altitudes.
A 'lil surprised.
Nope... i'm very sure that its SM Krishna.Paul wrote:Probably Ramkrishna Hegde's SIL. He is a Sindhi. The Sindhi community by virtue of this factors(amongst others ) has managed to develop a good position in Bangalore.Singha wrote:
now the son-in-law of a former K'tata CM who is 'closely tied' to a realty co wanted to develop this land. drdo was promised same land in outskirts and development started. the lowlying area was filled in leaving the lake infront of GTRE at a level 15 ft higherthan the ground floor of first building. the other lake was in back.
Please do not misinterpret this post.