India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

member_28555 · Post by **member_28555** » 30 Jun 2014 00:23

NRao wrote:What is "missile autonomy"?

indicating indigenously developed and no imports.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 30 Jun 2014 03:21

What is LAM ? From the tweet above.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 30 Jun 2014 03:50

I think LAM stands for "Loitering Attack Missile."

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Jun 2014 04:34

ragha.batluri wrote:
NRao wrote:What is "missile autonomy"?
indicating indigenously developed and no imports.

Sensors and all?

Impressive!!

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 30 Jun 2014 04:57

NRao wrote: Sensors and all?

Impressive!!

Don't we do most of it besides sensors already ? It would be huge leap, from the perspective of our war making potential. But otherwise just the logical next step given how our arms manufacturing abilities have been progressing ?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Jun 2014 05:30

KrishnaK wrote:
NRao wrote: Sensors and all?

Impressive!!
Don't we do most of it besides sensors already ? It would be huge leap, from the perspective of our war making potential. But otherwise just the logical next step given how our arms manufacturing abilities have been progressing ?

I am sure they have a good grasp on the topics. However, as an example, Nag, going from 4-5 Kms to 10 I do not think is a trivial topic.

Seems to me they have consolidated their capabilities and are now taking the next step in the progression. And, the next step does carry a high risk - as always (good for them).

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 30 Jun 2014 05:53

Vipul wrote:India set to open a new window to universe in two years.

India is set to open a new window to the universe in two years.The country has developed the world’s second largest gamma ray telescope that will help scientists gain new knowledge on the origin of the universe and origin of cosmic rays that bombard the space.

State-owned Electronics Corporation of India Ltd in Hyderabad has designed the giant 45 m high and 180 tonne telescope.The Rs. 45-crore mammoth structure will begin its journey on Saturday to the high altitude Hanle region in Ladakh, where it will be finally be installed to study the universe.

“The telescope will be operational in Ladakh by early 2016. After we reassemble the structure there, we will have to have some scientific trials and calibrations,” P Sudhakar, Chairman and Managing Director of ECIL, said.

This will be the fourth gamma ray telescope in the world. The largest such telescope built by a consortium of European countries with a diameter of 28 m is currently in operation in Namibia.“ This is the second largest with a diameter of 21 m. But because it is being located in the high altitude Ladakh region, it will have the same capabilities of the one in Namibia,” T Koul, Head (Astro Sciences division), BARC, said.The other two gama ray telescope are located in Spain and the US.

Significantly, unlike the other three, the Indian telescope is totally built indigenously, with designs supplied by BARC. Basically, the telescope is fitted with over 1,300 specialised diamond-turned mirrors that can capture gamma rays that hit the earth’s atmosphere from space more than 100 million light years away.

The rays are then captured by a 1088-pixel camera fitted at the tip of the structure.“ We can study super nova rays, pulsar energy flashes and other unidentified sources of such energy in the space,” Koul said.How is the telescope useful to man? “Primarily, it can be used to satisfy the eternal curiosity of man to have better knowledge of the university. We can also study the black hole phenomena in the universe, among other things,” he said.

But more important, as such projects have earlier demonstrated, it will give India some new spin-off technologies that have wide application.

For example, the diamond-turned mirrors, developed for the first time in India, can be used in strategic applications such as defence and space sectors. Also, the high resolution camera can throw up new technologies for high-precision cameras that can find application in healthcare and other sectors.

The structure will be dismantled and transported a distance of 2,500 km to Ladakh in the next three weeks, while some critical components will be airlifted.

Excellent development. A lot of this technology can go into ground based electro-optical deep space surveillance network. This will allow us to better conceal our activities and blind their satellites.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 30 Jun 2014 07:44

dhiraj wrote:Now below is one example where things could be taken forward with possibility of quick indigenous product.
http://idrw.org/?p=39691#more-39691
After M-777 debacle , All Eyes on Kalyani’s ultra-light howitzers Coming Next Year

Mandus Group of Rock Island, IL, the company Kalyani has tied up with, has a very interesting gun--the Hawkeye 105 based on the soft recoil system which pushes the barrel out just before it fires, absorbing and reducing the recoil and leading to a much lighter and smaller weapon. This is what Kalyani's Garuda is based on and they have started work on a 155 mm version which can be mounted on a regular army truck. Heck a helicopter could carry two of them. Fantastic if this works out. We are totally nuts not to be using the Garudas right now to replace the relatively big and cumbersome 105s with our mountain divs.

Hawkeye 105

Soft recoil explained

Ramu · Post by **Ramu** » 01 Jul 2014 14:37

A must read

India Can Make Major Defence Equipment

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jul 2014 01:30

A good read but the authors bias or lack of information comes through strongly when he says DRDO is acting only as a source of canalizing (channelizing?) previous gen tech in the form of TOT. The DRDO in recent years has only engaged in high end TOT for the following:
1. Seekers - Nag array, Astra
2. Radars - Greenpine, MFR
3. EW - for MiG-29 jamming component
4. Submarines - Arihant
5. Tanks -Arjun - FCS/Electro Optics, rest bought out
6. Missiles - LRSAM and Brahmos

Now in almost all the cases above, we got state of the art tech (Greenpine/MFSTAR/LRSAM/Brahmos), or strategically denied technology (Arihant).

He seems to be unaware as well of the umpteen successes in radars and other EW programs. He mentions Samyukta and Bison as success stories, but they are almost a decade old by now.

Unfortunately, this sort of misinfo is what detracts from otherwise a good article with the solid point that lack of coordination, lack of user involvement & overall lack of centralized management is to blame for many project failures.

The article is actually from 2009, but even then there were several other successful programs.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 05 Jul 2014 11:39

This is the assistance provided by the 1st World after 1962. Please compare this with the present day procurement saga to gauge how far we have progressed (Source: Nehru and the Indo-China Conflict of 1962)

Through Imports:

Air Force:
> 230 Vampire Aircraft produced under license from UK
> 104 Toofani Aircraft from France
> 182 Hunters from UK
> 80 Canberras from UK
> 110 Mysteres from France
> 55 Fairchild Packets from USA
> 16 AN-12s from Soviet Union
> 26 Mi-4 helicopters from Soviet Union

Navy:
> 3 R Class Destroyers
> 3 Hunt Class Destroyers
> 2 Crusiers
> 3 Leapoard Class Frigates
> 3 Blackwood frigates
> 2 Whitby class anti-submarine frigates
> 1 Aircraft Carrier

Army:
> 180 Sherman Tanks
> 300+ Centurion Tanks
> 160 AMX 12 Tanks

Through License:
> Gnat Interceptor Aircraft - UK
> HS-748 Transport Aircraft - UK
> Allouette Helicopters - France
> Mig - Soviet Union
> L70 AA Gun - Sweden
> Vijayanta Tank - UK
> Shaktiman Truck - Germany
> Nissan One ton / Jonga Jeep - Japan
> Brandt Mortar - France
> 106mm Recoilless gun - USA
> Sterling Carbine - UK
> Wireless Set - Various

Even after 50-60 years, nothing has changed.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Jul 2014 12:48

dinesh_kumar wrote:This is the assistance provided by the 1st World after 1962. Please compare this with the present day procurement saga to gauge how far we have progressed (Source: Nehru and the Indo-China Conflict of 1962)

I was reading the article posted by you on the Indian Army: News and Discussion thread.

The sense of deja vu one gets on a few issues after so many years is confounding. A particularly relevat quote from the article for this thread:

Conservative members of the Congress Party, notably Finance Minister Morarji Desai, have been strengthened, and expect that Nehru’s dogmatic reliance on socialism and the “public sector” of industry will be reduced; if India is to arm in a hurry, they argue, it will need the drive and energy of the “private sector.”

Just what will it take for us to change. The same arguments on similar threads will be made by my grandchildren?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Jul 2014 13:19

ven after 50-60 years, nothing has changed.

Very, very interesting compilation. Thx.

Any such info on aircraft engines?

vic · Post by **vic** » 05 Jul 2014 13:57

Till our R&D budget remains a measly Rs 10,000 crore, DRDO will only be able to do minimal Jugaad R&D. We need reasonable budget for building adequate labs, pursuing multiple lines of attack on a problem and funding acquisition of important technology like IR sensor array etc. I am hoping for increase of R&D budget to atleast Rs 25,000 crore on 10th July. As I pointed out that we have given measly Rs 50 crore for development of Nirbhay while spending USD 10,000 Billion ie Rs 60,000 crore on Brahmos, Harpoons, Klubs etc

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 05 Jul 2014 17:03

^ Aero engines of Western origin in HAL are

> Adour - Jaguar
> Garret - Do 228

Soviet Origin are:
> RB11 - Mig 21
> R-29B - Mig 27 (has higher thrust than GE F404 on Tejas)
> Al-31 - Su 30

Above are manufactured by HAL. Helicopter engine for Cheetah / Chetak / Dhruv also included.

> GE LM 2500 assembled but ToT may not be anything great.

Remaining engines like Dart (HS 748) and Avon (Canberra) are "maintenance and overhaul".

Chaiwalla info tht Adour almost fully localised, but Hawk uses different version, and Darin III will have (Honeywell ?). So Adour line for Jaguar slowly being closed down, and license built Hawk line taking the space and infrastructure.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jul 2014 18:11

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/ban ... 174565.ece

A chip that helps assess build-up of intra-cranial fluid in accident and trauma cases. — File Photo

One will speed up treatment of urinary tract infection caused by brackish water sources

At least three small smart chips that have emerged out of a national programme are ready to enter patient trials as potential cost- and life-savers, scientists involved in the programme said on Thursday.

According to V.K. Aatre, who chairs the National Programme on Micro and Smart Systems (NPMASS), the medical and other chips have been developed by involving universities, IITs and domestic industry for aeronautical, automotive uses. Dr. Aatre is a former Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) chief and ex-scientific adviser to the Defence Minister.

"Three of the medical chips have been cleared for multi-centric trials. We have [approached] ethics committees of hospitals and hope to start trials by the end of the year," Dr. Aatre said while announcing a conference on smart structures starting on July 8.

The six-year, Rs. 270-crore NPMASS includes the DRDO, Department of Science & Technology, Department of Space. It is due to close by the end of this year. Some of the partners in the programme are the Society for Biomedical Technology under defence lab DEBEL, Society for Integrated Circuit Technology and Applied Research (SITAR), both in Bangalore; TCS, Tech Mahindra, Pricol, IITs, Indian Institute of Science, 65 micro electronic mechanical systems (MEMS) design centres started in colleges and a few hospitals.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 05 Jul 2014 18:25

Another HAL achievement

EXCLUSIVE: Cornered Completely, HAL To Re-design Lumbering Intermediate Trainer

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/07/ ... to-re.html

OK, IAF's Fault for pushing for optimization . It should have just taken what was given to it by HAL

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Jul 2014 18:39

^^^ The article does not mention wing drop approaching stall. So that is ironed out, then. Just cut the flab.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jul 2014 20:30

Dhiraj, this just shows hysterical Indian media is, and you are falling for it hook line and sinker. This very news was posted in another thread and is the usual weight optimization exercise carried out by many programs. Shiv Aroor just shows he is the Indian medias version of rakhi sawant by not focusing on the more important part whether the IJTs spin issues were resolved or not.

I did some digging there and there is some news to be cautiously positive about. Time will tell though whether that optimism is justified.

Will post it when I can get to my notes.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 05 Jul 2014 20:42

This what I has posted on the Military Aviation thread 4 days ago.

indranilroy wrote:HAL has invited "partnership / technical assistance / consultancy from a well experienced airframe design house" "for weight reduction / optimization" (Click)

The Current status of the development
The aircraft is in an advanced stage of development and is expected to enter service within the coming year. The company has a firm order of 85 aircraft from the Indian defence services. Further orders for this aircraft are expected once it is operationalised.

The Scope of the RFI
The HJT-36 aircraft presently weighs around 4150 Kg in its Normal Training Configuration, i.e., with two pilots and full internal fuel without any external stores. HAL is envisaging achieving maximum possible weight reduction / optimisation for the aircraft.
P.S. This means Sitara is overweight by around 550 kgs over its designed weight. Part of this is expected: AL-55I engine and paraphernalia would have increased weight by 50-100 kgs. The increased thrust from the AL-55I engine will also compensate for some weight gain. But, it will be nice to see the plane shave off around 300 kgs.

The news from Shiv Aroor is just sensationalization. The airframe is overweight and they want to look at every thing to obtain weight reduction. Nothing more, nothing less.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 05 Jul 2014 21:08

indranilroy wrote:The news from Shiv Aroor is just sensationalization. The airframe is overweight and they want to look at every thing to obtain weight reduction. Nothing more, nothing less.

Karan M wrote:Dhiraj, this just shows hysterical Indian media is, and you are falling for it hook line and sinker.

Thanks a lot for putting things into perspective. It really helps for me and others too .
But then I have a query, why should HAL needs external consultant for airframe optimization after so many decades of aircraft manufacturing experience. Inhouse expertise ?
Further if it needs help could ADA have helped on this through some internal mechanism rather than going for all this formal process.
Believe me the above queries are for understanding and not some negative opinion.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jul 2014 21:15

The way he screams exclusive ..aroor is such a twit. Note the strakes thing. Might interest Indranil as he was looking for this data as I recall.

BTW IDP notes ...begin quote:

The IAF recently released a Request for Information for an Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) that would be used primarily for Stage-2 training of its pilots with a secondary counter insurgency role.

The selected vendor will be required to discharge 30% offset obligations as per the provisions of DPP-2013.

First thing first! The release of the RFI doesn't mean the HJT-36 Sitara project is dead. Neither does it mean that the Sitara won't be the IJT that the IAF ultimately ends up procuring!

The RFI is likely aimed at ensuring that the IAF has a fallback if the Sitara fails to obtain IOC by June 2014 and FOC in reasonable time thereafter.

Even if HAL surprises the IAF and the country by obtaining IOC in June, and FOC in December, its HJT-36 Sitara may not measure up to the QRs stipulated in the IAF RFI, specially those pertaining to Stall and Spin characteristics.

An HAL rep told IDP Sentinel at DefExpo 2014 on February 7, 2014 that HJT-36 is likely to commence stall tests within a month. HAL has identified the point on the wing where the boundary layer flow is turning turbulent and breaking up leading to a pre-stall wing drop; HAL plans to use boundary layer energizing strakes to remedy the problem.

What is clear to me as a pilot is that there is little chance of HAL remedying the issue by IOC. In a recent statement in parliament, Minister of State for Defense Shri Jitendra Singh hinted that stall and spin characteristic refinement could wait till FOC. That would be a big mistake, because there is really no guarantee that the problem would be remedied - ever! Besides, there is too much optimism in the belief that it could happen by December 2014. If it was that simple, it would have been remedied already. After all, it's nearly three years since PT1 crashed in April 2011 following loss of control.

HJT-36 appears in compliance of all QR's stated in the RFI. Indeed, the QRs are likely to be an exact copy of the QRs given to HAL for developing the HJT-36.

I will go to the extent of saying, the IAF'S Spin QRs are contestable as being overstated.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jul 2014 21:18

dhiraj wrote:
indranilroy wrote:The news from Shiv Aroor is just sensationalization. The airframe is overweight and they want to look at every thing to obtain weight reduction. Nothing more, nothing less.

Karan M wrote:Dhiraj, this just shows hysterical Indian media is, and you are falling for it hook line and sinker.
Thanks a lot for putting things into perspective. It really helps for me and others too .
But then I have a query, why should HAL needs external consultant for airframe optimization after so many decades of aircraft manufacturing experience. Inhouse expertise ?
Further if it needs help could ADA have helped on this through some internal mechanism rather than going for all this formal process.
Believe me the above queries are for understanding and not some negative opinion.

To be honest this screams project mgmt fail to me. They are looking for a quick fix from a foreign supplier to get it done quick, whereas if they had begun this earlier they could have I think done much of it within India or inhouse. This is IMHO a difference between HAL and ADA former is always ready to use imports to speed up things which has pros and cons.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Jul 2014 21:23

^^^Which brings me to the question - what happens to the planned induction time frame of the aircraft into IAF service? And not to forget that additional issue of spin which has been discussed recently. From signing of contract to actual work and roll out prototype which addresses all the issues - weight and spin - is going to take at least 2-3 years minimum. So, how is the aircraft going to 'enter service' in the coming year?

IAF had sounded the warning bells some time back - the Kiran Mk2 used for Stage 2 training will be on their way out in another 12-24 months. I wouldn't be surprised if the recent RFI by IAF for IJT was a sort of pressure tactic on HAL to move on and get the job done in respectable time frame. And not continue with its head in the sand approach.

To me, it looks like more orders for Pilatus if not outright purchase of 'imported maal'.

No wonder IAF does not want anything to do with HAL and its offer for HTT-40...you cannot inspire confidence in end-user by running a program this late which should have been in IAF service by now. Let them deliver what they promised first than asking for more order.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 05 Jul 2014 22:09

And then one reads articles like below
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 492297.cms

IAF is aghast that HAL has proposed "surrendering 30% of its 50% work-share" in jointly developing the FGFA called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA with Russia, while remains hell-bent on developing a basic trainer aircraft (BTA) that the force does not need.

there is no end to surprises since at times it is confusing if HAL should work towards IAF requirements on a proactive bases or the other way around . BTW the above quote is again according to sources so not sure about the authenticity.

Do we have an IAF interface with HAL which is exclusive for every HAL aircraft project right from the start of the program . Just like F 35
http://www.jsf.mil/leadership/
At least there will be no surprises and confusion leading to some unwanted reaction at either end.

Come one this is an IJT not a 5th gen fighter.15 years IAF has waited
http://aviationweek.com/defense/india-i ... t-trainers

The IAF has been reluctant to exercise the option of buying an IJT since the state-run HAL has been developing a trainer for the force for the last 15 years.

Karan M wrote:I will go to the extent of saying, the IAF'S Spin QRs are contestable as being overstated.

Sorry did not get this part. Does it imply that the requirement is beyond the reach of all the available IJT currently available in the market. ?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Jul 2014 22:52

What is clear to me as a pilot is that there is little chance of HAL remedying the issue by IOC. In a recent statement in parliament, Minister of State for Defense Shri Jitendra Singh hinted that stall and spin characteristic refinement could wait till FOC. That would be a big mistake, because there is really no guarantee that the problem would be remedied - ever! Besides, there is too much optimism in the belief that it could happen by December 2014. If it was that simple, it would have been remedied already. After all, it's nearly three years since PT1 crashed in April 2011 following loss of control.

Karan M and other aviators: I am just thinking aloud here to clear my confusion, so if you disagree, or could clear my muddle, pls let me know.

As an ex- military pilot and some experience in civilian aircraft operations / aircraft sales IMO, stall or basic stalling speed would be part of the published flight envelope and maneuver envelop for any aircraft. IOC certifying would start with the paperwork (I think).

All this will have to be submitted for certifying and then flight tested for establishing the facts by the certifying agency.

The DGCA has an elaborate CAR (CAR 21) for this and it is a long CAR.http://www.dgca.nic.in/cars/CAR%2021.pdf.

CEMILAC, a DRDO set up will check as below for certifying ab initio designs as in the IJT:
>Performance Evaluation (I think stall will come here)
>System Integration including HW/SW integration
>Design Evaluation (I think the flaw in the wing design if any will come here)
>Tech Spec, ATPs Safety Assessment (This may also cause a problem)
>Conformance to Airworthiness Requirements
>Software V & V Certification

CEMILAC carries out the design evaluation and airworthiness certification in accordance with the provisions of Ministry of Defence document “Design, Development and Production of Military Aircraft and Airborne Systems – 2002” (DDPMAS - 2002). This Document is periodically revised

reference link:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/49648218/Cent ... on-CEMILAC

So if the wing drop on approaching stall is a problem, the IJT IOC is a problem (IMO). The IAF QRs may cause a problem in FOC.

But then here is the other side:

Shiv Aroor does not mention the wing drop which to me (as said above)is a major step forward in obtaining IOC. Though, the ex MOS Jitender Singh statement in Parliament means that IOC would not suffer due to stall and spin problems anyways. And if the CEMILAC can approve IOC and accept corrections in aircraft in FOC, I don't think the HAL is in too bad a spot.

If Jitender Singh is right then what is delaying the HAL in going for IOC? Just like the wing drop, can't the weight issues be certified at FOC? If the IOC is achieved, the IAF may breath easy.

And if these two major issues can be shifted to FOC what will CEMILAC certify in IOC? This piques me because otherwise HAL would have definitely announced some achievement for the new PM to hear. HAL may have made a major error and rectification ain't easy. What is wrong with the IJT project?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jul 2014 23:06

Rohit,

The IJT is a perfect case of HAL over promising and under delivering. I mean 15 years for a JT. Some of the issues can be blamed on inexperience, engine troubles from the partner etc but their approach has been very lackadaisical. The IAF IMO gave them a low risk program only to have these guys mess it up.

Dhiraj, the author who is an ex IAF pilot and no fan of HAL feels the spin requirements are perhaps too stringent. I haven't compared these reqs or done any analysis so I wouldn't know.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jul 2014 23:10

Deejay, I am not a pilot - the author of that piece was. If you are one glad to have you with us.
Re wing drop my understanding is they addressed the issue only recently and it will take time to confirm. The author is not keen on HALs claims to get it done by IOC or happy with JSs statement it can get done by FOC - because what if the design is fundamentally messed up? The problems with the IJT are legion but the two biggest per my understanding were the engine and the aerodynamics. Not clear if both have been resolved adequately.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 05 Jul 2014 23:58

And to think of it, HAL actually went to town how quickly they developed the flying prototype

Sharam naam ka kuch hai hi nehi

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 06 Jul 2014 00:16

If HAL is truly asking for consultants to consider redesign of the entire structure of the IJT, we are talking surrender, finito. It's a totally effed up project in that case and will go nowhere as IJT which is needed immediately. Since it would warrant a noose instead of mere jail time and hard labor to waste all the money and effort spent on this turkey, we should consider turning it into a light attack aircraft.

Going by my aeromodeler eye (which at this point I trust a damn sight more than what passes for HAL's design eye), the current fuselage looks too "fat" and can be slimmed down if the wings are moved up a little and it looks like the wing spar won't interfere with the cockpit or engine placement. Ideally use a more powerful engine and stretch the fuselage for additional payload capability. Even more ideal would be to completely redesign the inlets. This is what the IJT should have been like from day one. We need to change the "lightest", "cheapest", "most tightassed", "smallest" mentality pronto.

Don't know what's wrong with HAL but it needs urgent attention. The design and development core it completely rotten. This is no time to make it an ego thing. We need some designers who can freaking deliver the goods, not putter around for decades to produce duds. I'll bet the IAF has known this all along and is clenching its teeth in fury. No wonder they blew up on HAL at Aero India.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Jul 2014 01:47

They are asking for weight reduction and optimization not complete redesign of the plan. An analyst writes: this is good news, they intend to mass manufacture it soon getting out of the trials phase. Perhaps they may meet the dec deadline for foc or the IAF rfi moved their schedule up.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Jul 2014 04:02

My goodness, you guys are like a pack of wolves! It is a simple weight reduction program!!! All modern planes like the IJT are designed as LRUs. They can look at the entire spectrum to maximize the weight reduction. What is the big deal here?!! they don't have design experience when it comes to optimizations. LCA and IJT are truly lessons for the HAL/ADA. Please give the engineers and scientists due time.

Deejay, if you want to learn, please do. But, you can't feign ignorance and accuse others at the same time! Those guys are wonderful engineers and scientists. I have interacted directly or have talked to people who have directly interacted with them. They are taking up challenges much more difficult than what is advertised. They have to produce results while they are learning. I wouldn't like to put myself in their shoes.

All those of you who think HAL shouldn't have gone partying for having plan to prototype in 3 years, are plain wrong. They deserve credit for that. They have messed up later. Karan is right that they made managerial blunders, but we can all say that in hindsight. If they repeat it, please blame them for that.

Karan, that picture is dated. All recent pictures of IJT show the strakes are removed, and it makes sense.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Jul 2014 04:21

The real question is how does it affect FOC? I am pretty sure that they will get FoC with the current configuration. Call this the Mark I version and start production. It is anyways way better than the Kirans that it is replacing.

If they are going to make changes to the structures, they need to be flight-tested along with the replaced LRUs. Call this the MArk II version and continue its testing in parallel with production of the Mark I variants. Retrofit the Mark I variants later.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jul 2014 10:51

Shaving of 300-400 Kg of IJT wont be trivial task and chasing weight reduction would be a constant en devour wont happen in single event.

They need to get the spin test done and put the IJT into production with the current weight , Spin test is critical cant afford to do it after FOC.

Weight reduction should be targetted in Mk2,Mk3 model with gradual attempt to reduce weight with other improvements.

One shot approach of getting weight reduced to what IAF wants and get the spin test done and then put into production would mean IJT would never see the light of the day ..need to be practical here.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 06 Jul 2014 11:06

Deejay, if you want to learn, please do. But, you can't feign ignorance and accuse others at the same time! Those guys are wonderful engineers and scientists. I have interacted directly or have talked to people who have directly interacted with them. They are taking up challenges much more difficult than what is advertised. They have to produce results while they are learning. I wouldn't like to put myself in their shoes.

Sir I don't know where you misunderstood. Those engineers and scientists are my heroes too. I am a hard core HAL / Indian manufacturing supporter. In an earlier argument (different thread) I have voiced those thoughts. I have literally grown up with the LCA. Today, I am knocking on my 04th decade. The LCA is yet to become part of IAF and I will scream if you promise not to mind - 'Please make it happen'. My feelings for IJT is similar.

My post was only to high light some conflict in the reports being heard or being quoted or discussed. I am no one or no authority to blame IAF / HAL. I repeat and please do not be offended -

What is wrong with the IJT project?

(I am not making it bold this time and please understand the genuine doubt on the reason for delaying IOC given what the MOS had stated in the Parliament. The MOS never mentioned weight reduction as an issue for delay or I have missed something. I have cited, what I think are the authorities on Certification. Please refer DGCA form CA 30 in the given CAR. I am sure IJT can fill out all parameters in flying though it may be contested, not sure on engine. CEMILAC process or what I read does not clarify the issues in IOC or FOC, it talks only of ab initio design).

I quoted my experience because in the short civilian experience as NSOP aircraft operators, our maintenance engineers at Air Works India and our team had to knock on DGCA doors for certification of a certain change we made on the aircraft and hence some knowledge on what happens at certification, at least at DGCA.

I hope I could clear my POV. I am indeed surprised and taken aback by what you had to say.

P.S. If you will go slightly above I said this (hope you agree to my statement):

deejay wrote:^^^ The article does not mention wing drop approaching stall. So that is ironed out, then. Just cut the flab.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Jul 2014 11:27

Fair enough. Just don't worry about the article. It has never been reported that IOC is facing problems because of weight. (I have a problem with ADA/HAL/NAL about weight estimation. There is yet to be a product which less than 10% over the designed weight). But just the extra weight will make the IJT sluggish, not really a problem for an intermediate trainer. So I don't think FOC will be held back for weight reduction.

Actually, I don't blame Aroor. It is his job. Indian news channels are nothing better than a soap opera now (in fact I would better watch K-series in its nth year than news channels these days). Every reporter speaks in the same tones, uses the same modulation of voices, and the same sensationalist keywords. Aroor is just part of the clan. It is okay. But a reader should be careful not to increase his/her blood pressure because of this kind of packaging of news.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 06 Jul 2014 12:09

@indranilroy: Sir, appreciate the quick response and your point is understood with some disagreement mentioned below.

@Karan M: Your take on focusing on better management at HAL is right. However, Shiv Aroor and his ilk (IMO) represent forces or lobbies at best and these forces may be the reason for mismanagement every time. Just the timing of the article (pre budget) and the absolute lack of mention on wing drop approaching stall existing or having been ironed out has raised my eyebrows. I am sure Mr. Aroor was aware of this and he chose to not mention it at all. That is what I was getting at. (IMO) Look at what they don't write and not just what they write.

vic · Post by **vic** » 06 Jul 2014 18:49

Another possibility:-

We have full right to beat our chests and I also believe that HAL management is incompetent and corrupt but there is another possibility also to be considered. HAL may be trying to refine IJT for the Batch after first 83 aircraft. With its efforts towards 25kn engine, and weight reduced IJT, we are practically into the category of follow on to Hawk ie AJT.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Jul 2014 22:15

Karan M wrote:Rohit,

The IJT is a perfect case of HAL over promising and under delivering. I mean 15 years for a JT. Some of the issues can be blamed on inexperience, engine troubles from the partner etc but their approach has been very lackadaisical. The IAF IMO gave them a low risk program only to have these guys mess it up.

Dhiraj, the author who is an ex IAF pilot and no fan of HAL feels the spin requirements are perhaps too stringent. I haven't compared these reqs or done any analysis so I wouldn't know.

Karan - I was (and still am) desperately hoping that IJT to enter service with IAF on time. And not let go of this tremendous opportunity. Apart from what it does to aviation space in the country, there is a very strong latent angle here - Indian pilots will be exposed to Indian made product during the early stages of their career. A well made IJT will add that much more respect and love for Indian product. And increase user confidence.

Let me share an anecdote - As a school kid, when I did not much understand these things, I interacted with crew of Arjun tank. These were the first 15 inducted into IA's 43 Armored Regiment. The unit was operating Vijayanta tanks otherwise. I has been inside T-72 and T-55 and Vijayanta. When I went inside Arjun, I was over-awed - the tank had so much space, it had all these fancy gadgets; especially, the gunners main sight and commander's sight. And drivers cabin was roomy and you had this small gear stick unlike the huge iron-rod contraption on T-72!

The Gulf War-1 had taken place a year or so back and I had seen a documentary on the same. That documentary had 'greenish' visuals taken through thermal sights of M1 tanks where one could make out enemy tanks and troops and vehicles. And lo and behold, Arjun also had the same 'greenish' vision!!! And the control joysticks were like fancy consoles of video games. I still remember the JCO Sahab proudly telling me that with the 'greenish' light, we don't have to use the IR lamp (which one saw on T-72 and Vijayanta) and which the enemy can detect as well.

Funny part was me getting bewildered by seeing two Arjun tanks parked side-by-side and with silhouette at different heights. This was the time where there was lot of bad press about Arjun tanks and I wondered to myself - These DRDO people cannot even make two tanks alike!!! This is how news items in work on people. And in my ignorance asked the JCO Sahab - 'They have manufactured the two tanks differently'...JCO sahab smiled and pressed a few buttons and my tank 'went down' to same level as the other 'badly manufactured one'...that was Hydro-pneumatic suspension unit for me.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 06 Jul 2014 23:11

rohitvats wrote: - Indian pilots will be exposed to Indian made product during the early stages of their career. A well made IJT will add that much more respect and love for Indian product. And increase user confidence...

Very valid and important point, specially at this stage of Indian MIC development. Thing is, today's rookie pilots already are training on a "well made Indian IJT', the Kiran so they should be aware that Indian products and designers can be and are good. Another excellent product is the Hansa basic trainer out of ADA but for some reason, we don't hear much about it and neither has it been marketed like it should be, either in India or abroad. It should be clear to all but the terminally blind that the problem is not with Indian engineers or management.