India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

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tsarkar
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby tsarkar » 02 Dec 2009 19:40

http://cgda.nic.in/rt/rtcblr/website/Tr ... rables.htm

Note the

(a) “Tempest” model:
(b) “Narad” model:
(c) “Arjun” model:
(d) “Samyukta” model:

as a measure of project management sucess.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby putnanja » 04 Dec 2009 03:30

Foreign firms keen on DRDO dengue spray

CHANDIGARH: The “lure and kill” spray — attracticide — developed by the Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has been attracting buyers from abroad. Developed two years back, DRDO had allowed commercial use of technology to indigenous companies only despite keen interest evinced in it by foreign companies.

“The idea was to generate wealth for our country rather than sell it (attracticide) outside,” DRDO’s research and development chief controller Dr W Selvamurthy told TOI. However, passage of time has failed to deter parties interested in procuring the spray.

United States-based Cromptom Corporation, among the interested companies, has been pursuing the organisation for the transfer of technology with a rare determination.

animesharma
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby animesharma » 04 Dec 2009 08:47

Developed two years back, DRDO had allowed commercial use of technology to indigenous companies only despite keen interest evinced in it by foreign companies.

“The idea was to generate wealth for our country rather than sell it (attracticide) outside,” DRDO’s research and development chief controller Dr W Selvamurthy told TOI.


In that case, wouldn't it be better to try to actually market it to Indian companies. Or at least have a online database, which can be accessed by Indian firms. They need to follow ISRO model, Form a marketing arm.. things will be much easier. And the more you market, the more you sell. The more your reputation goes up with illiterate media.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby arnab » 04 Dec 2009 09:26

animesharma wrote:[
In that case, wouldn't it be better to try to actually market it to Indian companies. Or at least have a online database, which can be accessed by Indian firms. They need to follow ISRO model, Form a marketing arm.. things will be much easier. And the more you market, the more you sell. The more your reputation goes up with illiterate media.


National Research Development Corporation does this marketing for GOI

http://www.nrdcindia.com/index.html

Our Mission is to fulfil our vision by engaging profitably in all activities germane to enabling new technologies to transit smoothly from their source points, through the corporate world into global commerce.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby sanjaykumar » 04 Dec 2009 10:18

The network centric warfare systems of Indian defence will also include cognitive intelligence systems which can analyse the brain using sensors or even ultrasonic waves. This can be used in dealing with cases of espionage and army intelligence gathering. "We have begun research on at our life sciences laboratory. But it is still at an infant stage. A soldier’s mind can be monitored in real time", he said.


:eek:

If it is being leaked out, they must have preliminary results at least. The ultrasound thing seems to be a deliberate red herring.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Ranvijay » 04 Dec 2009 11:27

Image
Last edited by Rahul M on 04 Dec 2009 11:38, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: hey didn't you say BR wasn't good enough for you and you wanted to troll somewhere else ? so why are you back ?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Ranvijay » 04 Dec 2009 13:19

I'll just carry on until you put me out my misery then!
done.
didn't expect better either.

expletive and rest of the pakiness deleted.
Last edited by Rahul M on 04 Dec 2009 13:57, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: edit.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Mahesh_R » 04 Dec 2009 13:57

Ranvijay wrote:deleted paki quote.


It seems you are the most frustrated guy with happenings around you and delays in Indian defence deals due political pressure or some other means...you may not be Paki or Chinki...but you are definitely NOT doing a favour to anyone with these comments...I understand and everyone here knows how the delays in defence deals affect our security...but what you and I can do abt it...If you are want to some thing abt it...then start your act..and stop these loose comments...

We are here to increase our knowledge on various defence related topics..if you are really NOT interested you are most welcome to leave but please stop this negative thought process...

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby animesharma » 04 Dec 2009 22:53

arnab wrote:
National Research Development Corporation does this marketing for GOI

http://www.nrdcindia.com/index.html

Our Mission is to fulfil our vision by engaging profitably in all activities germane to enabling new technologies to transit smoothly from their source points, through the corporate world into global commerce.


Thanks arnab, i didn't knew that.



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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby sunny y » 07 Dec 2009 22:43

Hi....Does anybody know anything latest about LRDE's SAR programme ??
Will Rustom be equipped with indigenous SAR or Israeli one ??

Thanks

ramana
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 08 Dec 2009 02:04

Meanwhile IDR has this article by Gp Capt. Bewoor

Defence PSUs: The Great Betrayal

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby srai » 08 Dec 2009 05:44

ramana wrote:Meanwhile IDR has this article by Gp Capt. Bewoor

Defence PSUs: The Great Betrayal


While there is validity to his arguments, it is also very biased towards all things negative. He is pretty much very angry ... and it could be he lost some friends in the Saras crash.

IMO, the solution is for DRDO to focus mostly on critical technologies that can not be obtained elsewhere. For technologies that can be obtained, it should go for a JV with an experienced international partner, such as with the Brahmos and the Barak-8 projects. The government (including MoD/IA/IAF/IN) needs to provide more incentives for more private companies (w/ FDI partnerships w/ experienced foreign defense companies for offsets/TOT) to break into the defense industry.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby raghava » 08 Dec 2009 05:59

ramana wrote:Meanwhile IDR has this article by Gp Capt. Bewoor

Defence PSUs: The Great Betrayal


While the article can be dismissed as a POV of one individual, on a personal basis, it is saddening for me to hear that at least part of the Armed Forces are unhappy about the INSAS and Arjun. Over the last so many years, I had steadfastly believed that these were world class and immensely proud of them.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 08 Dec 2009 06:54

Shri Lakshmi to make mine protection trucks
http://www.mydigitalfc.com/companies/sh ... trucks-341

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 08 Dec 2009 07:25

Aaah! Thank you to whoever located this thread. I was looking for it yesterday to put down some thoughts.

For my father's generation - (pre-independnce education) the most likely place to find an industry job was in one of the few public sector/government institutions like HAL/ITI/BHEL/ or labs like NCL etc.

But for most people whose education was in the 1960s and 70s (my generation), staying back in India to work in these government organizations was not an option. The first option was to go abroad. The people who eventually did gravitate to these institutions were those who could not/would not go abroad for whatever reason. I am not describing this reason as incompetence although I and my peers who had done everything right (and had the right birth and karma) used to consider such people as "leftovers". You were a failure in the eyes of society if you became and engineer or a doctor and failed to go abroad. The first choice was to go abroad and those who won recognition as the "cream" went abroad. And those who went abroad considered themselves as the best of the best and the rest as failures.

At least some of these "failures", now in their 50s and 60s are now heading various government DRDO labs.And from 1979 to 2009 I have not seen a single generation of Indians who finds it attractive or desirable to get into one of these institutions as a first choice. The first option is always to go abroad. The second option is to work for a "multinational" (a euphemism for a foreign company) who pays you in Rupees but thinks in Dollars.

Doing a BSc in any science is mocked at and laughed at although slavery as an Engineer or doctor (in the NHS in Britain) is OK because at least the pay is better. This was true even in the 1960s and remains true today. It is another matter that the engineer or a doctor may be a well paid coolie in some other country, but that life is more attractive that the penury, ignominy and rigid hierarchy of a government lab/factory.

This is not just about salaries. It is about an entire system run by people with tunnel vision or no vision in which students entering college know that hey have to become engineers and the have to go abroad or get a foreign employer. If they don't do that they will be left to scrape the bottom.It was that way 40 years ago and as far as I can tell, nothing has changed. No student who is topper in India has any reason to think "Ah - I will join a DRDO lab!". You even have kids saying "I want to work for Microsoft!" Even if he turns out to be a fool abroad - his pay and circumstances and freedom are better than the stories one heard about careers in government run institutions. Why else do you think Santanam and R.Chidambaram love each other so much? Speaks volumes about the environment in which they have come up.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 08 Dec 2009 17:27

Reply cross posted from LCA therad
sunny y wrote:Shame on these people. Who needs enemies when we have these people.


By sheer coincidence we have read (on the forum) in the last 2 weeks of how BOTH the US and USSR insist on making things in house and WILL NOT import major defence materiel. We come from a culture in which we accept that we must be useless and zero and that what comes from outside is necessarily better and that we cannot manage with anything that we produce. Add to that the fact that all college toppers (top 20 or more percent) go abroad knowing that their hard work and potential can only be recognised abroad and this has been going on for 45 years at least since the 60s.

We have a national problem of contempt of ourselves and our own and an unwilingness to acknowledge that anything is possible from within India. All of us, from time to time, have acknowledged that and felt that way.

When an Indian or PIO does something praiseworthy abroad we have unstinting praise for that person because he or she is "untouchable" and some other people are doing the praising also.

But in India nobody is sacrosanct no matter what he has done. If he has made one error in his life he is tarred and feathered. See th way Kalam was referred to by various people in the recent nuke brouhaha and I am not referring to BRF members although we are equally guilty of such attitudes. We cannot give unstinting praise for an Indian or an Indian entity except in the rarest instances. We like to think of this as "honesty". But the government culture that soaks the DRDO etc are made up of the same Indians (like us) who are always pulling someone down and sometimes in the most nasty terms.

We have a self-fulfilling attitude of assigning incompetence to anyone so that when a man rises to the top, any sign of incompetence is accepted almost with relief as if to say "That is to be expected". It is only real success that causes us heartburn and we do not believe it.

I know Air Marshal Rajkumar personally and it is heart rending to see the dedication he and others have put into the LCA - getting it to almost induction status with an accident free record so far. But god forbid - should something happen - we will all join the media chorus to say "Oh LCA? Latest Confusion in Aeronautics, delayed by 25 years and will be delayed fro 25 more"

We have a national attitude problem. A national disease. Not just BRF, but the media, DRDO itself and the armed forces too. If it is Indian it is bullshit. The DRDO appointee is considered bullshit by his superior and the newbie soon finds that his superior is best considered bullshit. Praise and competence are not anywhere near acceptable. We are only open to incompetece and accept it as the norm when we see it. But some guy works for DRDO and then goes abroad an gets a prize after that - then everyone will be all praise. Since he is abroad - our attitude changes.

Perhaps way waay off topic but check his out. We have a culture in which being wrong is punished.

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_s ... ivity.html

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby SaiK » 08 Dec 2009 18:51

if we have a problem, we have no other option other than something that is allowed in any democracy. court marshal the officers and put the men behind bars.

corruption is all that we have to handle. this is plaguing India soooooo much it may be too late to realize later than now.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby somnath » 08 Dec 2009 19:39

Interesting observations, but IMHO somewhat misses the core point..

shiv wrote:But for most people whose education was in the 1960s and 70s (my generation), staying back in India to work in these government organizations was not an option. The first option was to go abroad. The people who eventually did gravitate to these institutions were those who could not/would not go abroad for whatever reason. I am not describing this reason as incompetence although I and my peers who had done everything right (and had the right birth and karma) used to consider such people as "leftovers". You were a failure in the eyes of society if you became and engineer or a doctor and failed to go abroad. The first choice was to go abroad and those who won recognition as the "cream" went abroad. And those who went abroad considered themselves as the best of the best and the rest as failures.


Well, this is true to some extent, but not entirely..Enough IIT/IIM grads of the '60/70s generation stayed back to run Indian industry and "sciencedom". Some names that BRF-ites would recognise -

Avinash Chander of ASL is an IIT grad (a true blue BTech one, not a "matka" variety)
Dr Radhakrishnan of ISRO is an IIM grad (a true blue PGP one, not a "part time/exec" programme variety)

there are tons of such examples in the public and pvt sector - B Muthuraman of Tisco, S Hajara of SCI, many more..

Of course opportunities were lesser then than today in India and hence of lot of the "best and brightest" migrated...Not true anymore...Indian boys (and girls) are staying back for greater opportunities in India, and many are coming back..Because opprotunities to do quality work are greater here..

Those who derisively talk of us being "cyber coolies" forget that GE's Jack Welch Centre here churns out more patents than any other dev centre of GE..Or that the the biggest banks in the world use either Flexcube or Finacle as their core banking systems (from Infy and erstwhile I-flex respectively)..

shiv wrote:No student who is topper in India has any reason to think "Ah - I will join a DRDO lab!". You even have kids saying "I want to work for Microsoft!" Even if he turns out to be a fool abroad - his pay and circumstances and freedom are better than the stories one heard about careers in government run institutions. Why else do you think Santanam and R.Chidambaram love each other so much? Speaks volumes about the environment in which they have come up.
Aaah! Thank you to whoever located this thread. I was looking for it yesterday to put down some thoughts.


Well, the problem with aversion to the pure scinces and pure scientific profession is a worldwide phenomenon..The brightest American students today join the Wall Street as mortgage traders or Google to crunch codes, not NASA...People ranging from Barack Obama to Jeff Immelt rue the declingin interest in math among amercian kids (and they raise the bogey of India!)...

Back to the main problem of the services antipathy towards DRDO (and it is just that, there is no general feeling of "if it is Indian, it must be bad" anymore..Else ICICI Bank wont be using Finacle, Hero Honda and Bajaj wont be the largest 2 wheeler makers, Tata Nano wont the biggest "game changer" in the global auto space etc etc)...The reason for that is a unique monopoly+monopsony situation existing for long in the Indian military industrial complex..One buyer and one (domestic) seller..and the whole thing wrapped in a governmental framework...Accountability, rewards and recognition - all of this have been a problem, besides the lack of a "scientific temper" among the defence policy making elite, both civilian and military..

I think that the scenario will change now that the DPP 2006 allows for such a large pvt sector participartion in defence..It wont happen in a few years..For a proper eco-system to come together, it takes 10-15 years (software is a prime example)..But as more companies - L&T, MAhindras, Tatas - deliver finished products, they would be confident of taking on bigger and bigger projects..So if M&M gets success out of its armoured cars/trucks prject, its next project may well be an ICV, and thereafter, who knows, the next MBT...But it takes time...And with it will also change the mindset in the military about Indian products...

There are lots of structural defects in the Indian education system, but at its core it is still capable of producing some of the finest raw material man power in the world, and that material does not look towards the USofA as nirvana anymore...

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Yogi_G » 08 Dec 2009 19:53

SaiK wrote:if we have a problem, we have no other option other than something that is allowed in any democracy. court marshal the officers and put the men behind bars.

corruption is all that we have to handle. this is plaguing India soooooo much it may be too late to realize later than now.


I agree with you on the corruption part but I beg to differ in that there are also some other important factors like attitude for example which need to be pecked first.

My wife's close friend was a topper from her University who joined DRDO all starry eyed. She quit in 2 years flat, the reason being that her "supervisor" who was very "senior" in the org would dismiss her idea outright and any attempt on her part to innovate would be outright labelled as insubordination. I know her as one of the types who dint want to go to "Phoren" and want to make $$. After she quit DRDO, she went on to Unkil's land, did her Master's and PHD and is not into some firm's R&D department. Surely it was not corruption that was the issue here, it was all about her attitude.

The Babu-dom will hit us as much as corruption does. The tendency to put down meritorious colleagues (crab attitude), tendency to break rules when no one is present to supervise, incessant disposition to take sides and labeling others, unbridled fascination towards all things "Phoren" and overwhelming hypocrisy to wash it all down. I took a voluntary decision to come back to Desh in order for my Child to have Indian citizenship at birth and for my Wife to have her parents by her side whenever she wants. I have decided to stay here for good. But everytime I visit a govt office my resolve seems shaky seeing the attitude on display.

The intense competition prevalent in our country due to over population has resulted in an innate dislike and envy amongst Indians. In my opinion it will take another 50 to 100 years for us to reach the standards of the Westerners in terms of attitude. Improvement in living standards will bring about a much more pleasant attitude. As much as I look upon the Americans for their glaring shortcomings (dont ask me what, it would be a flame bait :| ) I admire their attitude, manners and behaviors towards others, even strangers.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby somnath » 08 Dec 2009 20:28

^^there is a general problem with govt organisations, but this repeated assertion that Indians are enamoured of everything "foreign" or that we are somehow "structurally" deficient simply do not conform to modern India..

About the "foreign" question, it is difficult to pin down exact empirical instances, but some close proxies:

At a macro level, India's non-oil imports as a % of GDP is in the 15% range, despite massive trade liberalisation over the last 10 years - that doesnt look like a country with a huge appetite for foreign stuff...

Anecdotally, in product category after product category, Indian brands/products dominate despite presence of formidable foreign competition (telecoms, autos, FMCG - you name it and there are enough instances)..
Indian brands dominate the consumer space, and even the so-called foreign companies are using their Indian experience to scale up elsewhere in the world..So Indra Nooyi is taking the LEhar Kurkure experience to Latin America, Carlos Ghosn gets Bajaj to develop his small car, Harish Manwani uses the Indian experience to revive Unilever' brands in the rest of Asia...

There are enough examples like these that actually show that Indian goods and services match up to the very best, and more importantly, Indians as talents, not just individually, but as companies and teams, are influencing globally..

So the whine of an "overpopulated country of envious individuals" seems quite out of palce...

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Yogi_G » 08 Dec 2009 20:47

somnath wrote:There are enough examples like these that actually show that Indian goods and services match up to the very best, and more importantly, Indians as talents, not just individually, but as companies and teams, are influencing globally..

So the whine of an "overpopulated country of envious individuals" seems quite out of palce...


Somnath, I completely agree that Indian good and services, provided they come out of organized sector can be amongst the best in quality. In my previous post I have not said that we are incapable, only that our attitude leaves a lot to be desired.

I am going to overlook your use of the word "whine". Please desist from using such words, it tends to take a sane discussion off course if taken personally by other person and will end up as a flame bait. I am going to, respectfully, give you an example of why I think extreme competition and over population is an issue.

Every morning I drive 26 KMs to my work place. It is a 4 lane road used heavily by traffic. If any one wishes to cross between sides of the road (bylanes) or wishes to take a U-turn a whole lane is blocked. People DO NOT yield to others when they wish to cross across the road from side roads. People use their horn incessantly when someone takes a U turn. In parts of the road a whole lane is cut off by cows sitting on them. People take sharp turns and "cut" the other vehicles. The fear is that there are so many other vehicles on the road and yielding will COST them precious time, given the fact that improperly designed roads and hawkers make things worse. The urge to race ahead of others in bottleneck situations is on display here, of course leading to many accidents. I have seen that in the West, people yield and actively encourage others to have the right of way first. What explains this? This attitude is on display in all walks of life, people rushing and "reserving" seats by placing kerchiefs on seats when a bus comes into the terminus. Forcing their way to a seat in tightly packed bus. Jumping lines in long queues, finding shortcuts in procedures etc etc, on short the desire to surge ahead amidst tight competition by hook or crook.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby D Roy » 08 Dec 2009 20:48

Alright since the talk has become all too predictable,
let me throw in some good news here.


Yesterday I got a call from BSNL. ( yes yesterday, crisp current yesterday). They asked me if I wanted a broad band connection to go with the existing land line. I said yes and then the chap said " when can I send someone with a form"?
I said- "why not today in the evening?"
at 5.30 the chap was at home.
he took out a form, which was pretty straightforward by sarkari standards. got my sign, filled out the rest himself and left.

I will get the connection by thursday. and from what I have heard from my neighbours the service is pretty good and complaint redressal is swift.

Things are changing. they will change in the R&D space also. just real competition is required.

I don't believe all that fifty-shisty year timeframe. I'll say more like 15-20. and by the way my horizon does not relate to Indians "becoming" more like some notional Americans in their manners. I am talking about serious R&D capability and results.

I give a frig about who finds americans more amiable in the circles they have interacted or in the neighbourhood store where they bought stuff.

From what I know and have seen, white guys from american universities also get attracted to the moolah and often talk about not wanting to join a " weapons lab" or some other "government hell hole".

But , yes I do see some Indians queuing up to do classified research for massa. Their moral compunctions about war sure takes a back seat to the salivating prospect of working at the so called "cutting edge" in gora land. the problem is the 200 year gora raj, which has ****** the upper caste/ class ( by the way caste and class are not synonymous here, I mean and/or) hindu mentality. still we have come some way in the last 60 and with each successive year the deferential mindset is leaching out. the process is accelerating and this depression in the west will do the Indian mentality a world of good.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Yogi_G » 08 Dec 2009 20:54

Can we take the discussion here?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby D Roy » 08 Dec 2009 21:01

I am x-posting over 'there'.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby somnath » 08 Dec 2009 21:08

Yogi, the use of the word "whine" was not in disrespectful terms, only as a general adjective..so sorry if it came across as such to you..

I have been a Delhiite for a third of my life, so I know what traffic mess can be..But then, we are Indians..We will probabl never be as self discliplined as the Japs, or as much attention to detail as the Chinese, or as a lot of things as a lot of other people...Warts and all, we are doing pretty well..

the topic here, about Indian defence science, there the problem is about govt institutions and structural issues there..It started with Nehru's creation of seperate science behemoths like CSIR at the expense of fudning universities...It only ended up creating greater bureaucracies that stifled creativity and drove top notch talent ouit of Indian univs to foreign ones...And then, the whole DRDO model, a unique case of a single developer-cum-manufacturer-cum-policymaker....It simply produced a giant bureaucracy that couldnt deliver on most things either on time or as promised in specs terms..leading to an ingrained scepticism in the services...And a general lack of savvy as a result of the monopoly situation as well - to moan about influence of foreign arms agents in the govt is well, deserving of sympathy, but little more..By now they should have learnt to play the "game"..Hell,for 5 years DRDO had its man as the supreme commander!! Again, a govt setup means that they are simply incapable of developing that street smartness required...

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby D Roy » 08 Dec 2009 21:18

and unlike the soviets these guys did not create competing design bureaus and manufacturing agencies.

there has to be competition. India's problem is that it followed a stunted soviet model in a democracy. that is why we see these lop sided structures.

If India adopted the path of liberal/semi-liberal democracy it should have also allowed free reign to capitalist enterprise.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 08 Dec 2009 21:37

somnath wrote:Those who derisively talk of us being "cyber coolies" forget that GE's Jack Welch Centre here churns out more patents than any other dev centre of GE..Or that the the biggest banks in the world use either Flexcube or Finacle as their core banking systems (from Infy and erstwhile I-flex respectively)..


er would those be patents for miniature nuclear reactors, or aircraft engines or turbine blades. GE and Jack Welch are both not familiar names to me. Are they DRDO labs or something set up by the Tatas or Birlas? Don't see them listed on NSE so maybe they are unlisted public sector undertakings like HAL?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Yogi_G » 08 Dec 2009 21:39

Somnath, I have replied to your point on discipline in the Indian psyche thread. No offence taken on the "whine" word. :)

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby SaiK » 08 Dec 2009 21:41

I agree to all other factors.. but as a system we need to mature and it is as important as we need to change our cultural behavior.

on the culture, we have to also include, that we all speak with half truth.. and there is always hidden agenda with everyone. this can be rectified by a systemic correction, and people blindly respecting it by fear and accountability.

there are ways to solve.. but we have no unity in coming to a decision other than to voice independent views.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby somnath » 09 Dec 2009 06:55

shiv wrote:
somnath wrote:Those who derisively talk of us being "cyber coolies" forget that GE's Jack Welch Centre here churns out more patents than any other dev centre of GE..Or that the the biggest banks in the world use either Flexcube or Finacle as their core banking systems (from Infy and erstwhile I-flex respectively)..


er would those be patents for miniature nuclear reactors, or aircraft engines or turbine blades. GE and Jack Welch are both not familiar names to me. Are they DRDO labs or something set up by the Tatas or Birlas? Don't see them listed on NSE so maybe they are unlisted public sector undertakings like HAL?


Well, yes, GE Jack Welch centre in India does churn out patents in things like turbine blades and aircraft engines, along with other cutting edge stuff on materials, plastics etc..Doesnt matter if the company is GE, it is IP being created by a group of Indians (hardly any expat out there) in India...So the current generation of Indians are not just working as cyber coolies...Flexcube and Finacle of course, are "NSE listed" company products (well Iflex is no longer listed, but it was when Flexcube became the world beater it is, Infy of course remains the darling!)...

the limited point is that within India, or without, there is no perception of India being a place of shoddy quality anymore..On Defence science, there is a problem as I have also said..And the problem is getting resolved with a pvt sector MIC slowly coming on stream - it will take time, but there is no other way! Lack of funding of universities, and a monopolistic military R&D setup have meant innovation has been stifled. Pvt sector competition will reverse the monopoly situation, and the broader unshackling of Indian unis will reverse the other fundamental problem...

PS: OT here, but on the point of cyber coolies, while a lot of work done out of India is maintenance and testing related (the cyber coolie stuff), a very large part of thwe work is now the high end stuff, and we are outcompeting the likes of CSC, IBM Global Services, Cap Gemini for that kind of work..(Small example - Bharti pioneered the concept of network outsourcing, an Indian innovation in the telecoms space since copied worldwide. Its contract however went to IBM if I am not mistaken..Since then, Indian majors like Wipro and Infy have taken a bulk of such telecoms management contracts given out by other players....A friend in Infy was telling me the other day that their real high end stuff, where they are developing pro bono applications and processes where none exist currently in complex domains lke banking/retail/telecoms, now comprise of 20% of their revenues - thats more than 1 billion dollars...So the best of India are engaged in doing stuff that is the very best in the world, not any "coolie" level things..

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby abhishek_sharma » 09 Dec 2009 09:52

somnath wrote:Those who derisively talk of us being "cyber coolies" forget that GE's Jack Welch Centre here churns out more patents than any other dev centre of GE..Or that the the biggest banks in the world use either Flexcube or Finacle as their core banking systems (from Infy and erstwhile I-flex respectively)..



100% True. People who work for Microsoft Research, Bangalore aren't cyber coolies.

somnath wrote:
Back to the main problem of the services antipathy towards DRDO (and it is just that, there is no general feeling of "if it is Indian, it must be bad" anymore..Else ICICI Bank wont be using Finacle, Hero Honda and Bajaj wont be the largest 2 wheeler makers, Tata Nano wont the biggest "game changer" in the global auto space etc etc)...The reason for that is a unique monopoly+monopsony situation existing for long in the Indian military industrial complex..One buyer and one (domestic) seller..and the whole thing wrapped in a governmental framework...Accountability, rewards and recognition - all of this have been a problem, besides the lack of a "scientific temper" among the defence policy making elite, both civilian and military..

I think that the scenario will change now that the DPP 2006 allows for such a large pvt sector participartion in defence..It wont happen in a few years..For a proper eco-system to come together, it takes 10-15 years (software is a prime example)..But as more companies - L&T, MAhindras, Tatas - deliver finished products, they would be confident of taking on bigger and bigger projects..So if M&M gets success out of its armoured cars/trucks prject, its next project may well be an ICV, and thereafter, who knows, the next MBT...But it takes time...And with it will also change the mindset in the military about Indian products...

There are lots of structural defects in the Indian education system, but at its core it is still capable of producing some of the finest raw material man power in the world, and that material does not look towards the USofA as nirvana anymore...


I agree absolutely. Reva is another example:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/28/business/global/28reva.html

There are many people (see an example below) who do first-rate work in India.

http://www.facweb.iitkgp.ernet.in/~ppchak/

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby abhishek_sharma » 09 Dec 2009 10:08

In India, a Developing Case of Innovation Envy

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/business/global/09innovate.html

Innovation is hard to measure, but academics who study it say India has the potential to create trend-setting products but is not yet doing so. Indians are granted about half as many American patents for inventions as people and firms in Israel and China. The country’s corporate and government spending on research and development significantly lags behind that of other nations. And venture capitalists finance far fewer companies here than they do elsewhere.

“The same idea, if it’s born in Silicon Valley it goes the distance,” said Nadathur S. Raghavan, a investor in start-ups and a founder of Infosys, one of India’s most successful technology companies. “If it’s born in India it does not go the distance.”


Sujai Karampuri is an Indian entrepreneur who has struggled against many of these constraints.

His Bangalore-based company, Sloka Telecom, has developed award-winning radio systems that are more flexible, smaller and less expensive than equipment used by phone companies today. Mobile phone companies and larger telecommunications equipment suppliers are buying and testing his products, but he has not been able to interest Indian venture capitalists. For the last five years he has run his firm on $1 million he raised from acquaintances.

“I can only afford to trial with one customer at a time and that takes three months to materialize,” said Mr. Karampuri, who has considered moving the company to the United States to be closer to venture capitalists who specialize in telecommunications. “You are always worried about paying next month’s salary to people. Should you keep the money for this trial or next month’s salary?”

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby somnath » 09 Dec 2009 10:38

^^^ Good examples all around Abhishek, especially the one on Teva..

What is inexplicable in DPP 2006 is the cap on foreign equity at 26% for a pvt sector company in the military space..The reason, ostensible at least, why the L&T-BAE JV has been rejected..So we are ok to buy arty guns from BAE in Sweden, but not from a subsidiary in India where they have (say) 49 or 51% stake? Quite daft, doesnt even have the theoretical objections that can be made for caps in the Insurance sector for example..We should in fact be allowing 100% equity stakes - it is much better if the F16 that we buy (??!) rolls out of a Lockmart plant in Bangalore or Nashik than from Texas..

I would go as far as to even suggest that equity stakes in 100% subs be made part of the offset rules..Once India gets inegrated in the global supply chain for a Boeing and Lockmart, it gets mightily tougher for the US to summarily impose sanctions..It also means that lots of Indians are exposed to these tech, and some of them can be poached by other, Indian pvt sector players for complimentary or even competing technologies...BAsically it builds up the ecosystem quickly..

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby aditp » 09 Dec 2009 13:07

BAe has a JV with M&M not L&T.

L&T's JV with EADS for missile systems was rejected by FIPB. There never was a JV proposal with BAe.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby somnath » 09 Dec 2009 13:30

^^^ Sorry, mixed up the JV partners - thanks...

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby tsarkar » 10 Dec 2009 14:44

Good point Somnath,

The reason for Indian aircraft (Tejas, LCH, Saras) actual weight exceeding design specifications is caused by weight creep in individual systems and components that are designed and manufactured from ground up and are often not “optimized” in terms of both design or manufacture. If global manufacturers source their components from India, then we have a choice of available sub-systems to use from instead of designing & manufacturing them from ground up.

Establishing policies to promote Aviation/Defense outsourcing to India would benefit local industry/R&D greatly.
GoI pursued a proactive policy with global car manufacturers as a result of which quite a lot of their global component sourcing is done from India.

A major problem in domestic manufacture is not lack of scientists but lack of technicians. Local shipyards suffer from lack of qualified welders and machinists who migrate to Korea/Dubai/Europe the moment they acquire relevant skills.
Having a large manufacturing base will ensure available resource base.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Rahul M » 10 Dec 2009 15:05

tsarkar sahab, could you answer this question please ?

viewtopic.php?p=784400#p784400

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby tsarkar » 10 Dec 2009 18:41



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