Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

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Virendra
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Virendra » 12 Feb 2012 11:43

On the way of life part, a friend recently shared some insightful content on travel and its connection with the mind.

Please pardon if OT. I'll try to highlight the relevant parts:
Brain chemistry reveals an essential unity of mind and body. Neurons not only contact other neurons, they also connect with skeletal muscles, at a specialized structure called the neuromuscular junction. There the brain uses acetylcholine – its primary chemical neurotransmitter for memory and attention – to communicate with muscles. Another of the brain's key chemical messengers, dopamine, helps regulate fine motor movement.
The role of these neurotransmitters in regulating movement underscores the intimate relation between body and mind, muscle and memory. In fact, many bodyworkers find that deep massage can trigger the release and awareness of powerful, long-held emotional memories.

Travel is another good way to stimulate your brain. It worked for our ancestors, the early Homo sapiens. Their nomadic lifestyle provided a tremendous stimulation for their brains that led to the development of superior tools and survival skills. In comparison, the now-extinct Neanderthal was a species that for thousands of years apparently did not venture too far from their homes. (Maybe they were simply content with their lives – in contrast to the seldom-satisfied sapien.)

Try to include one or more of your senses in an everyday task:4
Get dressed with your eyes closed
Wash your hair with your eyes closed
Share a meal and use only visual cues to communicate. No talking.

Combine two senses:
Listen to music and smell flowers
Listen to the rain and tap your fingers
Watch clouds and play with modeling clay at the same time

Break routines:
Go to work on a new route
Eat with your opposite hand
Shop at new grocery store

These are some tips to avoid many brain damages later in life-

Research on the physical results of thinking has shown that just using the brain actually increases the number of dendritic branches that interconnect brain cells. The more we think, the better our brains function – regardless of age.

Walking Benefits Brains
Walking is especially good for your brain, because it increases blood circulation and the oxygen and glucose that reach your brain. Walking is not strenuous, so your leg muscles don't take up extra oxygen and glucose like they do during other forms of exercise. As you walk, you effectively oxygenate your brain. Maybe this is why walking can "clear your head" and help you to think better.


In the morning, while you're still in bed, slowly begin to move your toes – any way that feels good. Wriggle, scrunch, and stretch. Move all your toes up and down several times, or work just your big toes. Wiggling your toes activates nerves that stimulate your brain and internal organs.

Do this exercise first thing each morning or after sitting for an extended period of time. It will help you to wake-up and become alert more quickly. Your whole body may feel pleasantly energized. Most important, your first steps – and those throughout the day – will be safer ones. (Falls are the second leading cause of spinal cord and brain injury among people over 65 years old
The human foot is one of the body's most complex engineering marvels. The eight arches in your feet do a remarkable job of evenly distributing the weight of your body, while 200 ligaments coordinate 40 different muscles that control the 56 bones in your feet – one fourth of all the bones in your body!


So who walked more, Agrarians or the invading Nomads (& their immediate ancestors)?

Regards,
Virendra

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby gunjur » 16 Feb 2012 12:03

Hi I am new here. I have few Q or request opinions regarding tippu. I did a search as to whether there is already a thread on them. Since I didn’t find one, I have posted one. If the admins think otherwise, as per their discretion let them move to appropriate threads.
Disclaimer: I just want to know about the legacy (both good & bad) since I come from the same region (former mysore kingdom) as hyder/tippu.
I think he is criticised from both ends of spectrum:
- islamists: though many non-believers were converted by tippu, he was also tolerant to hindus. Like he employed hindus in high positions, and he gave grants to lot of temples in Karnataka. At one stage he even gave protection to Sharada temple at shankara mutt, sringeri.
-Hindus: he converted lot of hindus. If any silver lining is to be sought, he was ruthless to missionary/catholic as well (not sure how this statement would be interpreted here :wink: )

Though one thing to be said about tippu is, economically many things were initiated to increase revenue of kingdom. Many things like introducing sericulture (Karnataka is leading raw silk producing state), increasing trade. He tried to build a dam on kaveri (at the same spot KRS stands) to improve agriculture. Since he was in state of war (war was always round the corner), he needed money badly to fortify towns, modernise army etc.
He knew he was against foes, who were better in quantity and quality (both in techonolgy and military stratergy). Hence he also sought to induce modern techonolgy, he is supposed to sent many missions to west asia, french to bring home techinicians who could help him in his war machinery. Various modifications/innovations were introduced in his navy ships to be more resilient. He started more than 10 factories to manufacture guns, mortar and musket. The quality of products was of same quality as of Europeans. And also w.r.t innovations in rocketry are documented.
Tippu/hyder ali was the only (or very very few people) who were able to get treaties with british as equal standings more than one occasion (1st and 2nd anglo-mysore wars).
Basically, he was a product of time he was in. He was as good or bad as situations allowed.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Virupaksha » 16 Feb 2012 12:19

Gunjur,

Tipu was a very smallish king who had an extreme Ghazi phase and so p*ssed every one off, his own people, his neighbors, much much bigger marathas, english , nizam - infact every one.

At one stage giving protection is different from at all times. One swallow doesnt make a summer.

Really have you tried reading the fights which marathas had with the british. Until 1810, guess who ruled the bigger areas- the marathas or the british?? See the map of India at 1947 with its princely states.

and yes just because ONE of his enemies happened to be british, doesnt make him a freedom fighter. Tipu Sultan is a modern revisionist history.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3788&start=400
start around there. There is few pages discussion. Dont want to rehash it against TV serial knowledge.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby gunjur » 16 Feb 2012 12:45

Virupaksha sir,
As i had quoted in my post earlier, both the good/bad aspects of him are there. Also as i posted here
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1244017#p1244017 everybody please excuse me if i have hit a raw nerve. :)

Now coming back, he was responsible for conversions no one denies that. And more than the size of the kingdom, how effectively he fought against british is also important. As stated in my earlier post, he/hyder had treaties with british as nearly equal standings on two times. that too the second time (after 2nd anglo-mysore war) , treaty was forced on east india company from london.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Anglo-Mysore_War#Treaty_of_Mangalore
The treaty is an important document in the history of India, because it was the last occasion when an Indian power dictated terms to the British, who were ordered from London to negotiate a peace.


That also should count and also his efforts to improve economy and infuse techonlogy to the army to fight the techonologically superior british army. As i stated, he had his share of good/bad things. As he needs to be condemned for his bad things, we should look into the right things he did as stated in the 1st line of this para.

With Regards
Gunjur

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Virupaksha » 16 Feb 2012 13:00

Gunjur,

Can you please read through ALL the links which come from the following search string "brihaspati tipu sultan site:forums.bharat-rakshak.com" in google (without quotes).
Also read about the maratha wars (1857 was also led by them) and the power struggles.

nothing like a raw nerve. rehashing is a boring work if nothing new is brought to the table.

PS: no sir, no ji for me please.

Edit1: Really are we going to now judge whether a king is good or bad by whether his sword is blunt or sharp? Is that what a king is about? - not about how he treated his people -not the foundations of the kingdom he dug

Edit2: A frigging status quo ante (pre-war status restored) treaty after it was Tipu/Hyder who initiated the attack, when the british were fighting another major war and thus had the element of surprise is being treated as the best treaty ever - when just 2 years earlier marathas roundly defeated the british. Guess when hyder ali launched the war? when the british were fighting the marathas in the first maratha war. Guess when the war ended. When the british army was relieved from the maratha war. The main british army was fighting the marathas. They were defeated there, they came back and rounded off tipu who had to sue for peace.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Sri » 16 Feb 2012 16:11

Gunjur,

Please find below what I posted a year ago on the last battle of Sultan.

viewtopic.php?p=1022122#p1022122
viewtopic.php?p=1025604#p1025604
viewtopic.php?p=1028375#p1028375
viewtopic.php?p=1028988#p1028988
viewtopic.php?p=1030258#p1030258

This is a battles thread, so keep your queries within the forum guidelines. Thanks

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby gunjur » 16 Feb 2012 17:24

All I said was that Tippu had both done both nasty, bad things and also certain things which were required. I never denied that there were no shortcomings in the person. He was a product of time he was in. Also brihaspathi said something similar.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=850251#p850251

I was asked to refer to certain previous posts or told that:
a) His was a smaller kingdom and Marathas were much bigger empire who fought/resisted british: I never said anything about Marathas. Yes, they certainly held sway over a much larger areas. Hence they could avail more resources to fight against british for a longer period as well. Unfortunately no Indian power was able to hold off british. :(

b) It is not just what military actions he undertook, but what he did to his subjects is also very important: Yes, he did convert people no denying it. But he also took various steps from an economic point of view which directly /indirectly helped the masses.

c) Even if he fought against british or anyone, it was for his own personal reasons and not for the love of the nation: Even if it were to be for his personal reasons, as said earlier he was a product of his time. That period (1750 – 1820) each indian player acted for their own personal reasons. I do not deny that both hyder and tippu were opportunistic to encash any perceived weakness of their rivals. It could also be said that 1st anglo-maratha war started due to internal rivalry among Marathas. Though they held sway over british initially, Unfortunately the Indian power had to lose finally and sign treaty of salbai in 1782 :( . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Salbai.
During the same time, hyder/tippu started 2nd anglo-mysore war against madras presidency. This saw a see-saw battle between Mysore and madras (later once the 1st anglo-maratha had ended, even Bombay presidency troops came and opened western front) which finally ended in treaty of mangalore. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Mangalore though status quo was maintained on ground, it certainly was a boost to tippu.

d) That my assumptions/points were based on a TV serial: Sorry, I really don’t remember what was shown in the serial (as I barely watched few episodes), but based my points what i could re-collect from books published from kannadauniversity, Hampi. Kannada university had published 8/9 voulmes (not sure about the number) on history of Karnataka from prior to kadambas -1947 (maybe post independence as well). I had read those books in a city central library near my home few years back.


I still don’t understand why my intentions are disputed. <EDITED> I have my strong views on missionary/jihadi activites in Bharata (else why would I join BR :wink: ). But all I said was inspite of all his wrong doings there are few things which was good/needed. Similar to following people/scenarios:

1) No self respecting sanatana dharmi should forgive congress when they told that Shri Rama was imagination of a person some xyz centuries back. But still praises were/are made to the same government that they withstood yankee pressure and award a plane suitable to Indian needs (this was the same contest which brought me to BR :) ).
2) Though NDA government made bharata a nuclear power, these same guys released and escorted terrorists who came back to haunt our country. :(
3) The same guy who escorted those terrorists (Mr. Jaswant singh) recently wrote a book on Jinnah (I haven’t read the book) which may have showed jinnah in another manner which maybe different from desi official version: that Jinnah was responsible for india’s partition which caused lot of suffering on the masses. That there were other players who acted for the reasons best known to them. And what happened , happened for various reasons.

Similarly why is that if I say some undertakings which happened under tippu was also the way to fight british for any Indian power, I am being questioned.
All I said was that, for all his shortcomings, he did understand that to fight british he needs to
- bring new weapons to army and modernise the army.
- For the above point, he knew he needed money, and hence he took various measures to improve the economy.

So for saying this, if I am being considered as persona non-grata. I mean I really don’t understand. Sorry for the long post, I wrote what came to my mind. Also sorry if i have crossed over the limit.

With Regards
Gunjur
Last edited by gunjur on 16 Feb 2012 18:25, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Virupaksha » 16 Feb 2012 17:46

Gunjur,

In this I have not talked about your political inclinations.

Actually I dont see much point in your posts. You seem to be asking us to praise Tipu for building new shiny toys at the same time saying that he murdered many. Frankly I am confused about what you are trying to say.

viewtopic.php?p=850636#p850636
Can you please read the exchange on this thread in page 12.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby gunjur » 16 Feb 2012 18:23

Virupaksha wrote:Gunjur,

In this I have not talked about your political inclinations.


I am sorry for making the statement that "I am no paki..." bold. it was impulsive, something which came to my mind right at that moment. I will edit it.
Also w.r.t to the 3 event like MMRCA decision etc, i just made it to highlight that indivduals take few right actions and wrong actions.

And w.r.t to tippu, It is upto each person to have their own opinion on tippu. From my p.o.v i condemn tippu for certain actions from his side and think he took some right decisions to fight british off. Unfortunately here we have different opinions :( . It's best to agree to disagree here.

With Regards
Gunjur.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Rahul M » 16 Feb 2012 18:40

Gunjur, kindly stick to the thread topic. do not bring OT issues into this thread. politics etc shouldn't be brought into the mil section at all.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby gunjur » 16 Feb 2012 22:28

On a side note, as per post
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=850991#p850991
It was said
Wodeyar dynasty restoration was very crucial to modern India.


I know Odeyars were progressive rulers who started schools and colleges even in interiors. Started/Allowed some sort of democratic institutions to come up. Municipal bodies were setup. At some later stage women were also allowed to vote. Maharaja gave his land for setting up HAL. Basically did lot of stuff for masses. Set up the first private radio station "Akashavani'' in india (which was name given to A.I.R post independence). But could some light be shed as to how Odeyars were crucial for modern india??

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Samay » 17 Feb 2012 12:54

Gunjur,
If Tipu fought the British and if that is praise worthy , then everyone else including the Sikhs,Rajputs, last Mughals,Marathas etc, fought them at some point and that also becomes praise worthy. But all of them were losers, why ? Because all of them were feudal in nature and remained so till the very end of their little kingdoms(in 1857 and 1947), there was absolutely no sense of a nation state,then .If anyone says that it was there then it is Bs. Had it been there, everyone else would have joined it , but since there had been differences then as they are now, those kings,maharajas,sultans,nawabs were walking on different paths having different fates. Their fates incidentally were not of their own as they thought it, but it was going to be of this whole region.
So we will always hear the same story in different ways having different povs but conclusions remain the same, that we always miss the big picture, it was then as it is now.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Sri » 17 Feb 2012 13:29

Gunjur,

Tipu's fight against British was praiseworthy. For a long time British wanted to settle with him. But they were concentrated on what they called the 'Maratha Confederation'. I have had a chance to go through the original British papers of that time. It is clear that they didn't consider Tipu a BIG threat. It is also true the Haider Ali and Tipu had reached upto Kanchivaram chasing the British. But they didn't attack Madras which was the main British fort in the region. British considered themselves lucky as their papers show they were in hopeless situation. They were also under pressure from the French in Pondicherry.

Later they had clearly made up their mind to deal with the Maratha issue. Requisiting both the Bombay Army and Carnatic Army for the cause. But then Nepoleon was on rampage in Europe. He also made noises about how he wants to dominate India. Add to this French landing in west coast in support of Tipu. The french presence in Pondicherry and Inclusion of French officers in Nizam's court added to their insecurities. They felt that had a flank to protect against the Marathas. They intercepted messages between french in Sriranagapatanam and Pondicherry. This added to their insecurities. Hence Dealing with Tipu came before the Marathas.

Please understand. In the final war, it was not Tipu who took the battle to the British. It was the British who took the war to Tipu. If you read the war diaries, Tipu was woefully under-prepared. British virtually walked to his court without much attrition. They came from 2 sides. Tipu tried to fight Carnatic Army near bangalore and Bombay Army at Coorg. At best they were half hearted efforts. British breached the fort at Srirangapatnam in 6 minutes....

I may be in minority here but I believe Tipu himslef saw a role of the British in India. He was concerned only with ensuring that his kingdom is spared and remains intact. Otherwise why his father will not completely rout the British if they had an opportunity. Tipu made alliances with French and even gave them permission to build a Church. One reason could be trade which was beneficiary to Indian ruling classes.

In the end Tipu fought bravely once cornered and nothing can take away his personal courage. He decided to fight even though he had an option to run. He was great leader of men and of what I can imagine a good pragmatic man who's calculation went astray in the end.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Virendra » 17 Feb 2012 17:27

Is there a way to read those British papers/records now?
Could you direct us to the books/manuscripts that you referred?

Regards,
Virendra

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby gunjur » 17 Feb 2012 18:00

Samay wrote:Gunjur,
If Tipu fought the British and if that is praise worthy , then everyone else including the Sikhs,Rajputs, last Mughals,Marathas etc, fought them at some point and that also becomes praise worthy. But all of them were losers, why ?


Yes, each one of them Mysore, Marathas, Rajputs etc fought against british but unfortunately not as a collective unit but individually. Sadly every one of them lost. :( Though none of them lacked valor on battlefield, but Indians lacked modern warfare technology(both weaponry& on field tactics)to fight off the british. This both Hyder ali/tippu recognized and sought to infuse modern technology as best and as fast as they could. For example Mysore rockets. This certainly was a modern weapon during those times. I feel this yearning for newer, better technologies and implementing them can be appreciated (though I cannot force it on anyone). Maybe time was short or for whatever reasons they could not catch up with the british.

Samay wrote: Because all of them were feudal in nature and remained so till the very end of their little kingdoms.... there was absolutely no sense of a nation state,then .

Completely agree.

Sri wrote: It is also true the Haider Ali and Tipu had reached upto Kanchivaram chasing the British. But they didn't attack Madras which was the main British fort in the region. British considered themselves lucky as their papers show they were in hopeless situation. They were also under pressure from the French in Pondicherry.

Maybe at that point of time none of the Indian powers thought british would defeat everyone of them and loot the country of it’s riches :( . Maybe everyone here thought they were a “temporary force” who were here for commercial purposes. Hence why not use this “temporary force” to defeat/weaken our local rivals. We lacked national sense. In a sense we ourselves allowed them to manipulate us and directly/indirectly become our rulers. :(

Sri wrote:They intercepted messages between french in Sriranagapatanam and Pondicherry. This added to their insecurities.


This is one more aspect where we lagged, maybe the british had a better spy network than anyone else. they were always on the hunt to find moles in every court. This spy network certainly paid them dividends.

Added later: On a side note, british built upon and improved rocket science. But is there any reference of it being used later again in india.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Sri » 17 Feb 2012 19:53

Virendra wrote:Is there a way to read those British papers/records now?
Could you direct us to the books/manuscripts that you referred?

Regards,
Virendra


to start with viewtopic.php?p=1025569#p1025569

Also refer 'Duplex and Clive The begning of an Empire' BY Henry Dodwell will give great back ground. I will post more names later.

I dunno any web resource for Original papers but try google scholar, you may find relevant sources.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby gunjur » 18 Feb 2012 23:29

Apologies if already posted.

Capture of kittur: The first Queen to fight against British. I thought she was defeated during the second invasion, never knew she was able to repulse british army twice.

Source: Kitturu Rani Chennamma (From page 101)
Certain excerpts.
The British army had surrounded Kittoor. On September 23, 1824, the queen chennamma donned military attire and attached British army under John Thackeray. There was a fierce battle. Thackeray lost his life. Finding their leader dead, the british army fled.

British invaded kitturu again in December 1824, as they had call reinforcement from madras, and Bombay now commanded by Dicks. The british army was well equipped. But the morale of kitturu was high and took the wind of the british army, defeated it and forced it to flee.

The defeat pricked british greatly, invaded kitturu a third time in December itself. British made use of policy of dividing people. The commandant of fort joined hands with british. He had cow-dung mixed with ammunitions and also let many secrets of the fort to british. Due to this chennamma was defeated this time and taken prisoner.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby gunjur » 18 Feb 2012 23:43

Apologies if already posted.
Capture of Kodagu (from page 117)

Certain excerpts
During the 15 year that followed 3rd Maratha war, except for 1st Burma war in 1824, madras army was generally left to cool it’s heels apart from quelling local disturbances. Then there occurred a fiery bit of action, when in 1834 the hardy fighters of hilly country of kodagu chose to challenge the british. This war marked the last occasion when military muscle of madras army was needed in south in any substantive manner.

Early april 1834, 6000 madras troops with british 55th regiment organised in 4 columns moved in on offensive. In a fierce encounter, kodavas under commander Madanta Appachu fought back and repulsed an attack by sepoys and went on to foil a flanking move by british 55th. Madras column had to retreat and camp several miles behind.

Meanwhile advance of western column, comprising 20th and 32nd MI began marching from heggala ghat from cannanonre took virarajendrapet losing an officer, 12 men killed and 36 wounded. Here they were joined by a part of eastern column, advanced to periypatna. A detachment was sent to take possession of palace at Nalknad. While rest of column advanced on capital Madikeri and encamped seven miles south. The fight was more or less over with that.The fort at madikeri was occupied on 6th, and the Raja gave himself up on 10th.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Murugan » 13 Jun 2012 16:21

Use of Elephants in Battle of Khajwah

http://horsesandswords.blogspot.in/2006 ... hajwa.html

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Virendra » 14 Jun 2012 11:18

I've been looking all around for PrithviRajVijaya of Jayanak. Is there any translation, hardcopy, scan etc available ?
I've got Hammir Mahakavya and Raso but PrithviRajVijaya was on top of my list and is yet out of reach.
Can someone help me with it?

Regards,
Virendra

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby BPSingh » 15 Jun 2012 10:50

Can someone please provide a link to Airavat's blog?

Many Thanks

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Sanku » 15 Jun 2012 10:52

BPSingh wrote:Can someone please provide a link to Airavat's blog?

Many Thanks


http://horsesandswords.blogspot.in/

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby member_19686 » 18 Jun 2012 06:48

Virendra wrote:I've been looking all around for PrithviRajVijaya of Jayanak. Is there any translation, hardcopy, scan etc available ?
I've got Hammir Mahakavya and Raso but PrithviRajVijaya was on top of my list and is yet out of reach.
Can someone help me with it?

Regards,
Virendra

Here:

Prithvirajavijaya (Poem in Sanskrit on Prithviraja III by Jayanaka in 12th century CE and commentary of Jonaraja). Edited by G. H. Ojha and Chandradhar Sharma Guleri. First published 1941. Publisher: Rajasthani Granthaghar, Jodhpur 1997.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaurishank ... chand_Ojha

Think this was an English translation because it says so on the Digital Library of India site but the link doesn't work.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Virendra » 18 Jun 2012 12:01

Thanks Surasena.
But I've been through this already. I checked DLI, archive.org and other sites. Googled it to buy as well. So far nothing has come up.
DLI has an entry for this book but doesn't have the scan available currently.
I think I'll have to call the Granthaghar itself and find out if any copies are available for sale.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Jun 2012 19:52

Gunjur wrote:Apologies if already posted.
Capture of Kodagu (from page 117)



Gunjur how reliable is a book which states the following

Nevertheless, southern India wintessed armed revolt against the British even in the 20th Century, with the Moplah Outbreak of Malabar in 1921


A communal riot with British blessings gets listed as a freedom fight- Wah

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Advait » 18 Jun 2012 20:55

Aditya, it cannot even be called a communal riot.

It was a pogrom by Muslims against Hindus.

Congress's dhimmi nature was obvious even then with a Congress report claiming only three people killed and underplaying the whole thing.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby skganji » 19 Jun 2012 03:06

Advait wrote:Aditya, it cannot even be called a communal riot.

It was a pogrom by Muslims against Hindus.

Congress's dhimmi nature was obvious even then with a Congress report claiming only three people killed and underplaying the whole thing.


For votes, they will go to any extent . The way the run the country is by keeping an eye on these vote bank politics and looting money so that it can be used during election time by giving freebies and getting the votes. Vote bank politics involves distorting the truth which puts the perpetuators ( unfortunately those who use Jihad) at disadvantage.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 19 Jun 2012 10:55

No details, but it is known that the ancient Indians repulsed the Arabs when the latter were at the height of their power. The western Caluyukas, Karkotas, Pratiharas and one Bapa Rawal all inflicted huge defeats on the Arabs in the 7th and 8th centuries. This fact doesn't mesh with the theory of the helpless or inept Indians always being defeated by the more vigorous, organised, better equipped and ruthless invaders from the West and North West.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Virendra » 19 Jun 2012 12:10

True. Arabs got a sound beating and never came back.
But once the upstoppable Mongols started harassing Turks, many of them extracated, pushed towards India for fresh ground and that was it. Those events finally lead to the setup of 3 mid size Turko-afghan Sultanates in north India.

Regards,
Virendra

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Yogi_G » 19 Jun 2012 13:07

The Arabs were defeated in sea too after the battle of Rajasthan on land dint succeed for them.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Virendra » 19 Jun 2012 15:41

Whom they did clash with on Sea?

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Yagnasri » 19 Jun 2012 17:26

I also tried and could not get this infomation. But there are some posts in this thread if I remember coorectly on arab invasion attempts on land and sea.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby ParGha » 19 Jun 2012 18:02

Varoon Shekhar wrote:No details, but it is known that the ancient Indians repulsed the Arabs when the latter were at the height of their power. The western Chaluykas, Karkotas, Pratiharas and one Bapa Rawal all inflicted huge defeats on the Arabs in the 7th and 8th centuries. This fact doesn't mesh with the theory of the helpless or inept Indians always being defeated by the more vigorous, organised, better equipped and ruthless invaders from the West and North West.


1. They would be early-medieval Indians, not ancient Indians.

2. The Arabs did settle down in Sind, and it exposes a critical weakness of the medieval Indian confederacies. They could mount a successful defense (like the Battles of Rajastan (Avanti) and Gujarat (Navsari)), but they could not mount a sustained counter-offensive campaign to root out the enemy.

3. Contrast this with the ancient Indians like the Mauryas and the Guptas: not only were the Greeks/Macedonians stopped at the Indus by the NW principalities, but Chandragupta actually destroyed the Alexandrian settlements and took back India to its scientific frontiers (which had been lost to Cyrus the Great); similarly the Guptas could not only stop the Sakas, but also chase them back to N Afghanistan and destroy the whole tribe.

4. Never heard of this "theory" until I stumbled upon BRF. By most objective accounts, Indians are no better or no worse than any other large nations of comparable size and complexity. Indians are still struggling to come to terms with the defeats and scars left by the Islamist Turks/Afghans and the Imperial British. However our traumatized memories do injustice to the Indians that ensured Alexander's conquest of the world ended at India's doorsteps (did a bit of downhill-skiing/downriver-sailing after that), the Mongols beat a retreat from India (lost their heads at Siri Fort), and the Imperial Nippon came to a halt at Impala (nipped them in the bud).

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby ParGha » 19 Jun 2012 18:13

Virendra wrote:But once the upstoppable Mongols started harassing Turks, many of them extracated, pushed towards India for fresh ground and that was it. Those events finally lead to the setup of 3 mid size Turko-Afghan Sultanates in north India.


1. The Islamist Turkic invasions of India began long before the Mongols unified under Changez Khan and started moving West. Ghaznavids were the first to make large raids into India; and while the Ghorids were ethnic Afghans, many of their Mamlukes (slave-soldiers) were Turkic. Qutubuddin Aibek, the first Sultan of Delhi, was a Mamluke who settled down after Ghori's slaying by a Ghakkar counter-raider (back when the Ghakkars were still Hindu and allied with the Rajputs).

2. The Mongols were not unstoppable. The Syrians and the Japanese make sure the world knows of their victories at Ain-Jalut and the Kamikazi Rescue of Japan. The Delhi Sultanate spent almost as much time fighting off Mongol incursions as holding down their seat against the Hindu resistance (Jats/Rajputs/etc) and against each other. Aladin Khilji's two Indian Muslim generals, Ghazi Malik and Malik Kafur, defeated the Mongols numerous times in the Punjab. Delhi's Siri Fort, like many other sultanate constructions between Peshawar and Delhi, was build on the skulls of thousands of Mongol POWs executed by Aladin Khilji, and stands as a grim reminder of the fact.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby gunjur » 19 Jun 2012 18:37

Aditya_V wrote:
Gunjur wrote:Apologies if already posted.
Capture of Kodagu (from page 117)


Gunjur how reliable is a book which states the following

Nevertheless, southern India wintessed armed revolt against the British even in the 20th Century, with the Moplah Outbreak of Malabar in 1921

A communal riot with British blessings gets listed as a freedom fight- Wah


No idea what is written wrt to moplah outbreak, but wrt to capture of kodagu whatever little i know, this account does not deviate much. Unlike other Kingdom/Principalities, the rulers in kodagu were not allowed to retain the kingdom but was annexed into EIC as it allowed british to monitor northern kerala, mysore and coastal karnataka and also for climate.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 19 Jun 2012 21:36

Sind was lost sometime in the 8th century. But even here, it took the Arabs 14 attempts to conquer it, after suffering numerous severe setbacks, again when they were at the height of their power. It is said that in the critical battle that enabled the Arabs to finally capture Sind, the Hindus actually had the upper hand until their leader, King Dahir, suffered a mortal wound. This pattern would occur a few more times in the following centuries.

It is still highly creditable that the early medieval Indians were able to defeat the Arabs in at least 3 major battles, when the Arabs were at their strongest. When you consider how relatively quickly the Arabs rode roughshod over West Asia, North Africa and Spain, the successful resistance of the Indians speaks to their superior skills, fighting spirit and organisation.

Yes, the ancient Indians-Mauryas and Guptas etc, were even more successful. Incidentally, why do some historians state that Alexander's invasion of West Punjab ended the Persian rule of that province? Persian(Achaemenid) rule of Punjab ended long before the Macedonian invasion, probably sometime in the mid to early 5th century BCE( i.e circa 450-410 BCE, under Xerxes) not in 326 BCE. Porus was very much an independent king, far as we can see, not one paying some kind of tribute to the Achaemenid emperor( Darius?) in 326.

The issue of the Indians being vulnerable and inept comes from the idea that the Indians relied too much on elephants and large, unwieldy armies. The invaders had swift horses, stronger armour, mounted archers and a ruthless outlook. The successes of the Indians against Greeks, Scythians, Huns, Arabs and even Turks on some occasions, means the theory has to be seriously modified!

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Singha » 19 Jun 2012 21:48

Alaksindr's retreat across the makran desert was a disaster....his guides mislead him and vanished into the winds after a while, so he had to hug the coast and seek supplies from his ships periodically iirc, not take the optimal route from water source to source. many perished. the hardship no doubt told on his health.

and this was after a hard fought campaign to even sail and march down the indus.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Yogi_G » 19 Jun 2012 22:31

I would rate Maratha victories in battles during their initial days as the best display of Indian martial prowess. Here was a small group of men (mostly light infantry) who defeated the best generals of the world in their day from the Abyssinians to the Uzbeks. And they were such keen observers that in their first conventional open battlefield encounter, they won! Some of my thoughts here,

Incorrect understanding of Indian martial prowess

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 19 Jun 2012 23:41

Yogi_G, nice website! The notion of Moslems ruling India for a 'thousand years' needs major qualifications. There were parts of India that were never really ruled for even 10 years, like Assam or the southern half of Tamil Nadu. Apart from the Sikh rule of Punjab on the eve of British conquest, large parts of the North were practically independent, including the Jat states, Jammu, Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Bundelkhand and Marwar and Mewar.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Virendra » 20 Jun 2012 13:14

1. The Islamist Turkic invasions of India began long before the Mongols unified under Changez Khan and started moving West.

I agree. However those were regular summer incursions for plunder and loot and they would retreat before monsoons. This wasn't an established rulership like the Sultanates did. My point was about the establishment of Sultanates.
Those Sultanates were setup by people who themselves and their pre-decessors came to India after central Asia became a boxing ring of Turks and Mongols.

2. The Mongols were not unstoppable. The Syrians and the Japanese make sure the world knows of their victories at Ain-Jalut and the Kamikazi Rescue of Japan.

Yes. I didn't mean they were unstoppable for everyone. I meant it in the Turko-afghan context.

The Delhi Sultanate spent almost as much time fighting off Mongol incursions as holding down their seat against the Hindu resistance (Jats/Rajputs/etc) and against each other. Alaudin Khilji's two Indian Muslim generals, Ghazi Malik and Malik Kafur, defeated the Mongols numerous times in the Punjab. Delhi's Siri Fort, like many other sultanate constructions between Peshawar and Delhi, was build on the skulls of thousands of Mongol POWs executed by Aladin Khilji, and stands as a grim reminder of the fact.

The scenario above is when the Sultanates had got ground in India. Then they were obviously able to repulse Mongols atleast from overunning them in India.
I was talking about when Mongols laid continous raids and many of the turko-afghan tribes had to migrate to India.
Basically what I'm saying is that Mongols aggression was one of the reasons many turko-afghan tribes pushed towards India to get out of a constant war zone where an upper hand for them wasn't even remotely visible.

Regards,
Virendra


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