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Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

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Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Feb 2018 16:58

Wow, I just posted in the IA thread saying I want to find our old nishans !

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby ramana » 03 Feb 2018 01:32

Akshay Kapoor I asked Ravi Rikhye to write about Shivaji's success factors.

In a nutshell he says the Muslims were a mobile cavalry force while Rajputs were a fortress based defence force.

Shivaji was the only one to realize the utility of mobile cavalry units even with the Maratha horse.
And thus he made a difference.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby NRao » 03 Feb 2018 03:58

Shivaji introduced (?) (is that the right word?) guerrilla warfare.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby nachiket » 03 Feb 2018 04:54

It wasn't just mobile cavalry and guerilla tactics, Shivaji was simply prepared to do anything that was needed to overcome the huge disparity in men and material that he faced. Fast light cavalry attacks, using terrain to one's advantage (and developing an excellent knowledge of local terrain in the first place), deception, night attacks, harassment raids, covert attacks, strategic retreat when the circumstances are too much against you. The deccan sultanate and the Mughals weren't used to this kind of warfare. Even after Shivaji, the Maratha armies continued using these tactics, especially against the long drawn out war with Aurangzeb, till they eventually had the wherewithal to amass large armies of their own. It was a strategy based on out-thinking your opponent, luring him into traps and anticipating traps set by him and also knowing when to avoid battle. The Afzal Khan story is legend, but one thing to remember isis that Afzal Khan came to meet Shivaji face-to-face after first trying and failing to induce Shivaji into attacking him in the plains where his much larger army would have prevailed. Having avoided that trap, Shivaji then set his own trap by first feigning a desire for peace, positioning and partly hiding his small army carefully and finally facing Afzal Khan himself. The popular story says the Khan struck first and Shivaji reacted and killed him but I'm pretty sure Shivaji knew when he walked into the tent that only one of them was getting out alive. And so did his army because his Lieutenants Kanhoji Jedhe and Netaji palkar knew exactly what to do and when to attack beforehand. They did that to perfection and Afzal Khan's formidable but bewildered army was routed by a force many times smaller.

Shivaji's personally led attack on Shaiste Khan's palace in Pune can be termed as a commando raid/assassination attempt of a target who should have been safe considering the large numbers of Mughal troops encamped in and around the city. Shaiste Khan escaped after losing three fingers and his son. Shivaji and the Maratha's escaped despite all the Mughal troops around.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby ParGha » 03 Feb 2018 04:56

Maratha forces were not particularly mobile cavalry centric in Shivaji's time -- his could barely assemble enough cavalry to get a low ranking mansabdari from the Mughals. Later he also paid his army a regular salary, and didn't want an expensive large cavalry on the books -- so he kept the size to a bare minimum that the revenue could support.

By Tara Bai's time the entire revenue system Shivaji painstakingly built had collapsed from Sambaji's inept leadership, and she had to innovate by offering the various Maratha sardars direct ability to collect 'chauth' in enemy territory. That laid the foundation and motivation for large irregular cavalry raiding forces; it also fatally weakened the ability of the Marathas to ever field a unified and stable empire.

Guerrilla warfare was nothing new or revolutionary in India -- any village kid who played kabbadi would know the basic principles of raiding, surviving and getting back to safe-zones. Even against the Central Asian hordes, the Ghakkars had famously killed Mohammed of Ghori and the Haryana Sarvkhap had harassed Taimur endlessly on his way back from Delhi raid.

Shivaji's contribution was far greater -- he created an early modern national army that served to protect the people, unlike most medieval armies that existed solely for extortion and looting. He introduced regular taxation (instead of jagirs and mansabdaris), balanced budgets and pensions for veterans and war-widows. Those things are far, far harder to achieve (especially when he was still in a survival mode) than getting together a bunch of armed men and going raiding.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby ParGha » 03 Feb 2018 05:31

Nachiket, it is untrue that the Deccani Sultans and the Mughals were unaware of guerrilla warfare. Hundreds of Maratha sardars served in Deccani armies as irregular cavalry (including Shivaji's family). Even more Uighurs and Turkmen served in Mughal armies, men who had grown up riding almost before they could walk... and who knew maneuver warfare as well as anyone in the world; there were also Afghans and Rajput veterans of the anti-Afghan wars who knew mountain warfare quiet well in even more punishing terrain than the Deccan.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Yagnasri » 03 Feb 2018 10:33

Shivaji understood Muslims better than anyone in Bharat before him. Maybe better than anyone after him. He acted accordingly. That is the major reason why we remember him.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby ashish raval » 03 Feb 2018 12:57

Murugan wrote:How Gujarat Sultanate came to an end.
Asylum seeker sultan Muzaffar III protected by Jadejas of Nawanagar. Jadejas' fought mughals.

A gripping account of bravery, perfidy and striking back.

The Battle of Bhuchar Mori (The Panipat of Gujarat)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bhuchar_Mori

There were plenty of battles in Zhalawad between Rajput's (zhala, jadeja, chauhans) and Gujarat sultanate of Mahmud begdo and others. My family's (Raval) history (some written by contemporaries and some from legends in villages) who were chief Pandits of Rajput's of Zhalawad has many stories of martyrdom even by my ancestors who fought and died battling Mahmud to protect cows from Muslim armies. They imparted vedic, military craft, statecraft and sword training to Rajput kings sons. Even today I find their generation as fearless as they would have been back then. We have twin objects in Puja - Vedas and Swords and Dhaal.

Single underlying reasons that Muslims were able to establish rule is because no unity among hindu kings who were busy in di%# measurements than getting together as one unit and fight. Muslims on the other hand fought under sword of Islam and name of Allah.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 03 Feb 2018 15:45

NRao wrote:Shivaji introduced (?) (is that the right word?) guerrilla warfare.


yes. Watch Maj Arya's show Patriot on the CIJWS. The Dy Commandant draws lineage from Shivaji and talks at length about this and guerrila warfare.

watch here - 1.40 min onwards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yenkmKQqh54&t=1544s

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 03 Feb 2018 15:52

Yagnasri wrote:Shivaji understood Muslims better than anyone in Bharat before him. Maybe better than anyone after him. He acted accordingly. That is the major reason why we remember him.


and also that action not only saved the civilzation from annihalation but the numerous tactical victories were bound into a strategic victory and and the fonduations of a India wide empire. His military lessons were lost by some of his scuccesors who again left the mobile, highly trained, highly motivated, ably lead , mobile (light infantry, infact the Maratha Regt in Indian army is called Maratha Light Infantry) tactics for long baggage trains, long lines of communication, pomp and show in battlefield and set piece actions. From a purely tactical point of view one should read Gen Raghavan's Infantry in India where he talks about some of these issues.

Slightly OT to tactics- more about how to consolidate the gains of battle and the place of the battle in the longer term civilisational plan - The british took power using one part of Shivaji's army against another. And carried their divide and rule by using Madrasis against Marathas, Marathas against Rajputs and Rajputs against Sikhs. Because they built modern armies with good pay, izzat, equipment and professional officers. Shivaji did that too but his successors forgot these lessons.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 03 Feb 2018 16:01

ashish raval wrote:
Murugan wrote:How Gujarat Sultanate came to an end.
Asylum seeker sultan Muzaffar III protected by Jadejas of Nawanagar. Jadejas' fought mughals.

A gripping account of bravery, perfidy and striking back.

The Battle of Bhuchar Mori (The Panipat of Gujarat)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bhuchar_Mori

There were plenty of battles in Zhalawad between Rajput's (zhala, jadeja, chauhans) and Gujarat sultanate of Mahmud begdo and others. My family's (Raval) history (some written by contemporaries and some from legends in villages) who were chief Pandits of Rajput's of Zhalawad has many stories of martyrdom even by my ancestors who fought and died battling Mahmud to protect cows from Muslim armies. They imparted vedic, military craft, statecraft and sword training to Rajput kings sons. Even today I find their generation as fearless as they would have been back then. We have twin objects in Puja - Vedas and Swords and Dhaal.

Single underlying reasons that Muslims were able to establish rule is because no unity among hindu kings who were busy in di%# measurements than getting together as one unit and fight. Muslims on the other hand fought under sword of Islam and name of Allah.


You come from an illustrious ancestory. My pranaam to your lineage.

And yes individual actions count for little - they need to be moulded into a coherent mutually supporting force with a shared vision and identity. One reason the Rajputs couldnt fight mobile was that they fought alone (other Rajputs didn't support) so the fort had to be protected.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 03 Feb 2018 16:07

ParGha wrote:
Shivaji's contribution was far greater -- he created an early modern national army that served to protect the people, unlike most medieval armies that existed solely for extortion and looting. He introduced regular taxation (instead of jagirs and mansabdaris), balanced budgets and pensions for veterans and war-widows. Those things are far, far harder to achieve (especially when he was still in a survival mode) than getting together a bunch of armed men and going raiding.


Excellent post. Shivaji was a brilliant general, leader, figther, an adminstrator par excellence and great visionary and statemsman. And he started from scratch. He had enormous physical and moral courage and extremely intelligent karama yogi. What a man.

And Nachiket Sahab very good points too.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby ashish raval » 03 Feb 2018 18:17

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
ashish raval wrote:There were plenty of battles in Zhalawad between Rajput's (zhala, jadeja, chauhans) and Gujarat sultanate of Mahmud begdo and others. My family's (Raval) history (some written by contemporaries and some from legends in villages) who were chief Pandits of Rajput's of Zhalawad has many stories of martyrdom even by my ancestors who fought and died battling Mahmud to protect cows from Muslim armies. They imparted vedic, military craft, statecraft and sword training to Rajput kings sons. Even today I find their generation as fearless as they would have been back then. We have twin objects in Puja - Vedas and Swords and Dhaal.

Single underlying reasons that Muslims were able to establish rule is because no unity among hindu kings who were busy in di%# measurements than getting together as one unit and fight. Muslims on the other hand fought under sword of Islam and name of Allah.


You come from an illustrious ancestory. My pranaam to your lineage.

And yes individual actions count for little - they need to be moulded into a coherent mutually supporting force with a shared vision and identity. One reason the Rajputs couldnt fight mobile was that they fought alone (other Rajputs didn't support) so the fort had to be protected.


Fully agree. History is riddled with this and only if they formed united coherent units they could have not only have successfully fought back but also conquered the land of Vikram Aditya back and cleaned the gandharva land of Malsi.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Feb 2018 20:27

I think another lesson from Shivaji is Dynastic rulers are a bane. Genes and lineage are overrated. Similarly extreme faith in 1 ruler is wrong. We need systems in place. Being weak militarily and economically is an invitation to attack. And our neighbours will attack if they see weakness. Our neighbours to the North East never practiced economics, they believed in loot and plunder. Even Nadir Shah removed taxes for 5 years after the loot in Delhi.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby ashthor » 03 Feb 2018 21:49

Looking Through Broken Glass: Rajput Victories In Indian History

https://swarajyamag.com/culture/looking ... an-history

1. Nagabhata 1 Pushes the Arabs Across the Indus (c 740 AD)
2. Prithviraj Chauhan Crushes Mu’izz-ud-Din Ghori – First Battle of Tarain (1191 AD)
3. The Katoch Rajputs of Kangra Annihilate Muhammad bin Tughlaq’s China Army (1333 AD)
4. Rana Hammir leads the Rajput Renaissance Against Muhammad bin Tughlaq (1336-1340 AD)
5. Battles of Khatoli and Dholpur – Rana Sanga Defeats Ibrahim Khan Lodhi (1518-19 AD)
6. Mewar’s Victories over Malwa and Gujarat Sultanates (Fifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries)
7. Durgadas Rathore and The Thirty Years War Between Marwar and the Mughal Empire (1678-1707 AD)
8. Siege of Auwa During the Great Rebellion of 1857

More on the above mentioned in the link.

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby ashthor » 13 Feb 2018 21:47

Interesting read...never knew about this.

The Indian Village in Tibet

At his monthly press conference, Senior Colonel Wu Qian, the spokesperson for China's ministry of
national defence, answered a question about China maintaining a high military presence close to the Doklam area.

'Dong Lang area is Chinese territory, and, therefore, we will decide the deployment of our troops on our own,' Wu said.

Beijing is always quick to claim territory which is not its own; in the present case, it belongs to Bhutan.

It is probably not in Indian genes to claim other nations' territory; but worse, in some cases, India has been unable
to claim its own territory.

Here is the story of a small parcel of India in Tibet: A village called Minsar.

For centuries, the inhabitants of Minsar, although surrounded by Tibetan territories, paid their taxes to the
kingdom of Ladakh
.


More in the link.

http://www.rediff.com/news/special/the- ... 180213.htm

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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Postby ashthor » 17 Feb 2018 20:50

So much is written about the Hindu kings of west and south India.

Time to know about a king from East India - Kapilendra Deva Routaray

From Devkot in the North to Tiruchhipalli in the South, the Oriya Empire extended- the single largest Hindu Empire the Continent had seen since the rule of the Pratiharas, over even hundred years ago, and until the coming of Akbar, the single largest Indian Empire since the Tughlaqs.


Image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapilendradeva

https://historyunderyourfeet.wordpress. ... conquerer/

http://purnyabhumiodisha.blogspot.in/20 ... agara.html

http://www.historyofodisha.in/kapilendr ... -1467-a-d/

https://rightlog.in/2017/07/blue-mounta ... es-orissa/


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