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Small Arms Thread

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
vaibhav.n
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 07 Jul 2017 12:46

Image

Image

The total contract with Heckler & Koch is worth EUR 168 million (USD 177 million). The weapons will be delivered over some 10 years as set out in the 2014-19 multiyear budget law by the Direction Générale de l’Armement (DGA).

The breakdown of deliveries is as follows:

38,505 units will be the HK416F Standard version and 54,575 units will be of the HK416F Short version. 5,000 units are supposed to be delivered in 2017. Other accessories and various components, as well as training and support services will run for some 15 years as well.


1 Lakh/rifle+sights will only be possible with an OFB product. Reflex sights don't come cheap.

The new tavor 7.62 will be interesting as IWI has a local manufacturing unit and they would definitively bid aggressively to land the contract.

ramana
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 09 Jul 2017 11:11

Something called Baikal IZH-79 is devastating UK armed gangs.

Its modified pistol.

Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 09 Jul 2017 12:04

ramana wrote:Something called Baikal IZH-79 is devastating UK armed gangs.

Its modified pistol.


It's as if the baikal was designed from the onset to be converted into a real weapon :rotfl:

VinodTK
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby VinodTK » 10 Jul 2017 01:45

Government speeds up procurement process of 1.85L rifles for Army
Weeks after the Army rejected an indigenously-built assault rifle, the government has decided to speed up the procurement procedure for over 1.85 lakh high calibre guns to replace ageing INSAS rifles. The Army has been pressing for fast tracking the supply of the 7.62×51 mm guns and particularly sought immediate procurement of at least 65,000 rifles to enhance its fire power in border areas and in counter-terror operations.

Already nearly 20 gun manufacturers including a number of foreign entities have responded to the request for information (RFI) for the assault guns and steps are being taken to move the procurement process speedily, official sources said.

Last month, the Army had rejected the 7.62×51 mm guns built by the state-run Rifle Factory, Ichapore, citing poor quality and ineffective fire power.

The Army is badly in need of the assault rifles and the contract for the guns is likely to be finalised in the next few months.

Official sources said there were “excessive number of faults” in the guns manufactured by the rifle factory and “complete redesigning of the magazine” was needed to consider the guns to be used by the Army.

The Army last year had rejected another indigenously-built assault rifle called the 5.56 mm Excalibur guns as it did not meet the required standards.

In its RFI, the Army had specified effective range of the 7.62×51 mm guns at 500 metres, adding they should be as light as possible in weight.

It had also mentioned that the guns should be capable of “fitting and firing” under barrel grenade launcher manufactured by Ordnance Factory, Tric
hy.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vonkabra » 14 Jul 2017 14:33

Thakur_B wrote:Rifle 5.56x45 mm
INSAS: several million ordered. Nearly all major users hold a grudge and want a replacement. Mediocre


Pardon me, but I don't buy into this narrative of INSAS being an utter failure. Other than some foreign media sites (and Indian news sites which have taken taken their cue from the foreign sites), can anyone please point at any authoritative report from the Indian army on INSAS being such a failure? If it was really such a horrible weapon (from media sites you'd think the magazines crack the minute they are inserted into the rifle and that the barrel explodes the minute it is fired) please explain how we won Kargil? Did our soldiers storm the hills using only their bayonets?

I am not going to go into why it failed for the Nepalese army (the one instance being the only documented case of it's failure) - which till date we don't know whether it was a problem with the guns, their maintenance or (most likely) their usage. The Indian army has been using the rifle for much longer and for far more intensive operations without any such mass failure happening.

Possibly the rifle is not the best in the business, but it seems to do its job. In the video posted some posts back, the army chief states that the INSAS is a fine weapon but the army has changed its doctrine and wants a 7.62 rifle now, hence a replacement is required. I will take his word over a bunch of dubious sources complaining about the rifle any day.

shiv
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2017 14:51

vonkabra wrote: I will take his word over a bunch of dubious sources complaining about the rifle any day.

What? Are you mad? How will the army chief know more than Bharat-Rakshak forum members about army and weapons? We are the experts no?

Bart S
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bart S » 14 Jul 2017 16:09

vonkabra wrote:
I am not going to go into why it failed for the Nepalese army (the one instance being the only documented case of it's failure) - which till date we don't know whether it was a problem with the guns, their maintenance or (most likely) their usage. The Indian army has been using the rifle for much longer and for far more intensive operations without any such mass failure happening.


Even this was greatly exaggerated because vested interests in Nepal had an axe to grind and it fitted right into the tide of anti-India propaganda and the whole grievance industry that seems to be big amongst the Nepali elites and media.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 14 Jul 2017 17:24

vonkabra wrote:Possibly the rifle is not the best in the business, but it seems to do its job.

Therein lies the problem. India's needs are extensive and resources are finite, which is why there is nothing fundamentally wrong with settling for an acceptable solution that's available at a budget.

What is not acceptable is paying top-end prices for a 'functional' rifle. Which is doubly true when its been built to "high exacting standards" by OFB's "skilled & motivated" workforce that's been running DRDO's name into the mud for decades.

(Keep in mind, OFB is not a PSU. It operates on a no-profit-no-loss basis, so the profit margin on the 1 lakh rifle isn't recycled back to the MoD, it goes towards overtime & perks for OFB's officers & staff.)

OFB's been taking the Indian taxpayer for a ride for a long time now, and if the alternative i.e. a pvt sector entity manufacturing a foreign/ARDE design, breaks OFB's pernicious monopoly over the market, its worth it in my book.

Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Jul 2017 09:07

vonkabra wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Rifle 5.56x45 mm
INSAS: several million ordered. Nearly all major users hold a grudge and want a replacement. Mediocre


Pardon me, but I don't buy into this narrative of INSAS being an utter failure. Other than some foreign media sites (and Indian news sites which have taken taken their cue from the foreign sites), can anyone please point at any authoritative report from the Indian army on INSAS being such a failure? If it was really such a horrible weapon (from media sites you'd think the magazines crack the minute they are inserted into the rifle and that the barrel explodes the minute it is fired) please explain how we won Kargil? Did our soldiers storm the hills using only their bayonets?

I am not going to go into why it failed for the Nepalese army (the one instance being the only documented case of it's failure) - which till date we don't know whether it was a problem with the guns, their maintenance or (most likely) their usage. The Indian army has been using the rifle for much longer and for far more intensive operations without any such mass failure happening.

Possibly the rifle is not the best in the business, but it seems to do its job. In the video posted some posts back, the army chief states that the INSAS is a fine weapon but the army has changed its doctrine and wants a 7.62 rifle now, hence a replacement is required. I will take his word over a bunch of dubious sources complaining about the rifle any day.


Please don't get me wrong. Insas reliability issues have indeed been overblown by the media, but that does not negate some basic issues with the rifle. Our operating conditions do impose severe constraints on designers. It is a lesser known fact that there have been 4-5 design iterations of the baseline insas. I am yet to hear a complaint about insas reliability other than arctic conditions.

Right after kargil war, circa early 2000s, the issue of insas barrel in Arctic conditions was overcome by importing barrel blanks for the rifle from Finland. However insas does have an issue with frost freezing up the operating mechanism leading to the rifle not cycling properly at times. This is an issue that affects a lot of firearms. The AKM doesn't face this issue because the powerful round and ample of gas are able to cycle the rifle without fail. The ak74 and the Swedish AK5(derivative of fn fnc) Incorporated operation in arctic conditions from the beginning. There was a time when it was near impossible to see our troops in siachen armed with AKMs, it was only Insas. Over the last 3-4 years AKMs have started to show up in greater numbers in pictures.

From my interaction with soldiers, most have been lukewarm with regards to insas.And it is not as if the forces are unforgiving about domestic small arms. Arde's UBGL, despite being larger and heavier than most modern UBGLs has seen wide acceptance.

The user feels the rifle doesn't cut it anymore and has felt the same for a very long time. If only the user made realistic sqrs and gave domestic designs a level playing field.

Gyan
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 15 Jul 2017 11:24

Army has normally been dissatisfied with all indigenous products. Arjun, Nag, JVPC/Milan, Vidhwansak, Pinaka-1, indigenous BPJs, come to mind. When there are trials, then even the foreign products all fail. The only convenient way is single vendor import without trials.

Gyan
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 15 Jul 2017 11:28

Though it seems for last 5 years INSAS 5.56 LMG is being produced at the rate of around 8,000 per annum. It's production was originally halted in 2002. I think we need an indigenous rifle in 7.62x51 caliber based on MCIWS rather than INSAS. I wonder whether indigenous AKM variant Ghatak or sniper rifles are being produced? Till 2015, OFB was unable to produce any Ghatak or sniper rifles.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 16 Jul 2017 07:40


Rakesh
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 16 Jul 2017 07:41

.50 is for Pansies! Give me something bigger. The Indian use of NTW-20 and it's OFB made derivatives.
http://tejasmrca.weebly.com/small-arms/ ... ing-bigger

Gyan
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 17 Jul 2017 17:35

It's a good news if Indian AMR is being acquired. Per my knowledge no procurement was done apart from 100 Vidhwansak for BSF.

ramana
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 17 Jul 2017 21:42

Rakesh wrote:.50 is for Pansies! Give me something bigger. The Indian use of NTW-20 and it's OFB made derivatives.
http://tejasmrca.weebly.com/small-arms/ ... ing-bigger



Lots of interesting details in the above article.
The biggest is that the NTW-20 is now being directly made by OFB called AMR in two calibers: 20mm and 14.5mm.
And Army has them at 4/battalion while BSF has the 14.5mm only.

Gyan
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 18 Jul 2017 23:38

ramana wrote:
Rakesh wrote:.50 is for Pansies! Give me something bigger. The Indian use of NTW-20 and it's OFB made derivatives.
http://tejasmrca.weebly.com/small-arms/ ... ing-bigger



Lots of interesting details in the above article.
The biggest is that the NTW-20 is now being directly made by OFB called AMR in two calibers: 20mm and 14.5mm.
And Army has them at 4/battalion while BSF has the 14.5mm only.


Yes Ramana! Very good news, if true but no OFB report has mention of AMR being manufactered. 4 Battalion and BSF purchase would mean around 4000 AMRs inducted. Very unlikely.

ramana
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2017 01:17

Thakur_B, Can the NTW be re-chambered for the 23 mmx115 GSch cartridge?

Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 19 Jul 2017 08:34

ramana wrote:Thakur_B, Can the NTW be re-chambered for the 23 mmx115 GSch cartridge?


The iranis tried something like that. Their rifle weighed 60 plus kilos :rotfl:

Edit: It's no longer a rifle, it's a canon if it fires canon rounds :wink:

Pratyush
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 19 Jul 2017 13:20

Have we seen any reports of the indian army expressing interest in 6.5 mm rounds. As intermediate between 7.62 and 5.56mm.

Mihir
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Mihir » 19 Jul 2017 19:55

Pratyush wrote:Have we seen any reports of the indian army expressing interest in 6.5 mm rounds. As intermediate between 7.62 and 5.56mm.

No, that will happen after they induct 100,000 7.62x51mm rifles.

ramana
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2017 20:38

Thakur_B wrote:
ramana wrote:Thakur_B, Can the NTW be re-chambered for the 23 mmx115 GSch cartridge?


The iranis tried something like that. Their rifle weighed 60 plus kilos :rotfl:

Edit: It's no longer a rifle, it's a canon if it fires canon rounds :wink:



So muzzle energy of the 23x115 mm is much higher than the 20x82 mm Mauser round?

I tried looking for it couldn't fins such fine details.

For the 20mmx82mm Mauser round I got Muzzle Energy is 28,500 Joules.
for the 20X110 M.E is 40,000 Joules
And there is one version of the NTW-20 with this round.

So I thought maybe OFB can adapt the 23x115 round as it is available with them for the GSch guns.

Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 19 Jul 2017 21:04

ramana wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:
The iranis tried something like that. Their rifle weighed 60 plus kilos :rotfl:

Edit: It's no longer a rifle, it's a canon if it fires canon rounds :wink:



So muzzle energy of the 23x115 mm is much higher than the 20x82 mm Mauser round?

I tried looking for it couldn't fins such fine details.

For the 20mmx82mm Mauser round I got Muzzle Energy is 28,500 Joules.
for the 20X110 M.E is 40,000 Joules
And there is one version of the NTW-20 with this round.

So I thought maybe OFB can adapt the 23x115 round as it is available with them for the GSch guns.


I suppose it's doable. Syrian beardies did it, but they fire it more like an artillery piece than a rifle.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rishi_Tri » 19 Jul 2017 22:25

What are the advantages of 7.62 mm rifle versus 5.56 mm? What has changed Army's outlook towards 5.56 mm ? -way operations are being conducted, weapons possessed by adversaries..!!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby A Deshmukh » 19 Jul 2017 22:50

Rishi_Tri wrote:What are the advantages of 7.62 mm rifle versus 5.56 mm? What has changed Army's outlook towards 5.56 mm ? -way operations are being conducted, weapons possessed by adversaries..!!

7.62 = shoot-to-kill v/s 5.56 shoot-to-injure

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby brvarsh » 20 Jul 2017 04:06

On a small arms thread but completely different issue unrelated to armed forces. I never understood other than Nationalization of industries why India could not allow private companies or person owned factories to legally produce small caliber guns - mostly hand guns. Like gunsmithing in places like Munger is historic and it continues today only under ground. Owning gun is a very Indian culture, and without private industry crime is not that much reduced either, so why not to allow smaller players in non military grade guns and control it instead?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 20 Jul 2017 07:11

I think 20 mm and 23 mm caliber guns are no longer "small arms". Medium weapons I guess.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 20 Jul 2017 19:45

Indian "is" using 23mm Guns in form of Zu-23 twins on border. Anti Aircraft rounds are too powerful to be fired from shoulder supported guns. Therefore AMR have slightly under powered 20mm rounds. The point of 20mm rounds in off course to have adequate space for explosives and fuze,

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 20 Jul 2017 20:11

Most AMRs produced currently are in the 12.7 mm / 0.50 BMG

Very very few are designed in the 20mm.

Hardly any purpose-built AMRs are designed with the 23mm caliber ammo. The weight, recoil constraints are not effective for regular single soldier use.

The ZSU-23 mm primarily made as an anti-aircraft round, can of course be used for anti-material usage by a proper army with good training, well defined doctrine and smooth logistical support. But such an army will probably have other more suitable options anyway.

jayasimha
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby jayasimha » 21 Jul 2017 15:02

Indian Army seeks a CQB Carbine with 5.56mm Calibre with to achieve
following broad characteristics:-

https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata ... 090617.pdf


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