Small Arms Thread

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ks_sachin
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Jun 2018 08:19

Thakur_b

Thanks. Do visit DSA small arms who have made th fnfal modern. There is one vid on just the cosmetic changes. I will post links.

This is not a capability beyond us... heck

Sad...

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Jun 2018 08:24

Btw I am not intelligent enough to understand most of the stuff every one here is an expert on but thanks for insight.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Jun 2018 08:24

What are probs with MCIWS

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 09 Jun 2018 06:38

https://youtu.be/U6SRCpDZuNg

Thakue_b have a look

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 10 Jun 2018 09:20

Thakur_b you said ace and the ofb are quite similar. Having said that have you observed the charging handle on the ofb rifle. It so far ahead. We may have the same ossue with front hand guard..

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jun 2018 20:32

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 9108384770 --> Indian Army Madras Regiment sniper being briefed upon the Remington M2010 Enhanced Sniper Rifle while the spotter is equipped with Leupold Mk.4 Compact spotter scope. M2010 fires a .300 Winchester Magnum (7.62×67mm) round and is effective up to 1200 metres.

Image

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jun 2018 21:32

https://twitter.com/Parthu_Potluri/stat ... 5555943424 ---> Check out these panoramic quad-tube night vision goggles (model: BNVD-P) from Bangalore-based Tonbo Imaging, similar in layout & function to the GPNVG-18 worn by Navy SEALS during OBL raid.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jun 2018 21:34

https://twitter.com/Parthu_Potluri/stat ... 3969057793 ---> From the product description of the Staghound targeting system, it appears that Tonbo Imaging is also making meaningful strides in the field of White Phosphor-based lo lux image-intensifying tech:

https://tonboimaging.com/tonbo/products/staghound/

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jun 2018 21:35

Now that is COOL!!!!

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 7381235712 ---> COAS General Bipin Rawat trying out the Tonbo Imaging WolfPack multi aperture and multispectral real time panoramic imaging system which is designed to increase situational awareness.

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 13 Jun 2018 22:58

^^ It will be awesome if IA regularly starts buying from Tonbo.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sid » 14 Jun 2018 09:41

Rakesh wrote:Now that is COOL!!!!

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 7381235712 ---> COAS General Bipin Rawat trying out the Tonbo Imaging WolfPack multi aperture and multispectral real time panoramic imaging system which is designed to increase situational awareness.

Image


It's a Microsoft Hololens.

This is how it actually looks like.
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Neshant » 18 Jun 2018 11:42

What a shame.

Indian army plans to buy rifles from an overseas shopping spree rather than improving on the indegenous INSAS.

------

India Army is said to pare down rifles order to 250,000

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 450104.cms

A scouting team will be leaving later this month to meet with foreign rifle-makers including Colt’s Manufacturing Company LLC, Italy’s Fabbrica d’Armi Pietro Beretta S.p.A, Swiss Sig Sauer Inc., the Czech Republic’s Ceska Zbrojovka and Israel Weapons Industry Ltd. to identify the most suitable weapon, the person said.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Jun 2018 15:45

Neshant wrote:What a shame.

Indian army plans to buy rifles from an overseas shopping spree rather than improving on the indegenous INSAS.

------

India Army is said to pare down rifles order to 250,000

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 450104.cms

A scouting team will be leaving later this month to meet with foreign rifle-makers including Colt’s Manufacturing Company LLC, Italy’s Fabbrica d’Armi Pietro Beretta S.p.A, Swiss Sig Sauer Inc., the Czech Republic’s Ceska Zbrojovka and Israel Weapons Industry Ltd. to identify the most suitable weapon, the person said.


Better they go and get something that works. Improving the INSAS - thats a joke because after more than a decade of user feedback the design is still where it was. The new 7.62 version is no better - no originality. Just go see what people have done with the venerable FN FAL design.
And before you shoot me please spend a month looking at small arms design and then come back and tell us if the Army is justified or not (after comparing to the sorry offering from the OFB). Also look at all of Thakur_B's posts.
Mate infact just look at the Galil Ace 52 and compare that to our 7.62 OFB. The little things matter....

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 18 Jun 2018 18:53

^^^
Totally agree.
A rifle is an infantry's best friend. Designing it should be as much art as much science.
Western countries allow gun ownership and most designers are avid lovers of firearms. They not only know what is the science behind but also the feeling.
A rifle is such a personal thing that you cannot replicate unless you have the same love and adoration dedicated to it as the original designer.
Though it is better to have homemade options but sometimes it is not avoidable. Even the mighty MIC of USA imports H&K rifles for its SF.
We can save money from other indigenous options like NVD and lasers, but we need to indulge in this option.
But what I for the life of me cannot understand is why we need to import the MicroDots with each rifle since we already have an indigenous one. Can get another rifle for the price.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bart S » 18 Jun 2018 19:26

ks_sachin wrote:
Neshant wrote:What a shame.

Indian army plans to buy rifles from an overseas shopping spree rather than improving on the indegenous INSAS.

------

India Army is said to pare down rifles order to 250,000

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 450104.cms

A scouting team will be leaving later this month to meet with foreign rifle-makers including Colt’s Manufacturing Company LLC, Italy’s Fabbrica d’Armi Pietro Beretta S.p.A, Swiss Sig Sauer Inc., the Czech Republic’s Ceska Zbrojovka and Israel Weapons Industry Ltd. to identify the most suitable weapon, the person said.


Better they go and get something that works. Improving the INSAS - thats a joke because after more than a decade of user feedback the design is still where it was. The new 7.62 version is no better - no originality. Just go see what people have done with the venerable FN FAL design.
And before you shoot me please spend a month looking at small arms design and then come back and tell us if the Army is justified or not (after comparing to the sorry offering from the OFB). Also look at all of Thakur_B's posts.
Mate infact just look at the Galil Ace 52 and compare that to our 7.62 OFB. The little things matter....


As long as the OFB has a virtual monopoly on local small arms development, nothing much is going to improve. We need to get private companies involved and kick the lazy unionized parasites to the kerb.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Neshant » 20 Jun 2018 09:05

souravB wrote:^^^
Totally agree.
A rifle is an infantry's best friend. Designing it should be as much art as much science.
Western countries allow gun ownership and most designers are avid lovers of firearms. They not only know what is the science behind but also the feeling.


I wanted to say that western individuals have way more disposable income than the average Indian which allows them to indulge in such hobbies (i.e. designing & manufacturing guns) and get really good at it.

But that does not explain how China (where gun ownership is strictly prohibited) has managed to do a good job of (copying) Russian and now Western guns.

This is going to sound like a radical idea but how about the govt encouraging Tata or some big name company to buy out a medium size gun design/manufacturer in Eastern Europe, Israel or the West? Kind of like Tata buying Jaguar & Land Rover. Maybe have them design guns and run OFB's production of it.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Neshant » 20 Jun 2018 09:41

ks_sachin wrote:Better they go and get something that works. Improving the INSAS - thats a joke because after more than a decade of user feedback the design is still where it was. The new 7.62 version is no better - no originality.


The question is what is the cost of these other rifles.
We can't compare a Ferrari to a Hyundai because the costs are vastly different.

Serious question - is INSAS a bad rifle?
I ask this question not knowing too much about small arms.
Are you being too critical of it.

INSAS 7.62 is featured 2/3rds of the way into the video below (Expo 2018) :


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Neshant » 20 Jun 2018 09:52

More contenders for the Indian Army contract :





The gun sure looks fancy. But does fancy = better.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Jun 2018 11:57

Neshant

You have asked a couple of interesting questions. I will respond later tonight and if possible Thakur_B and other small arms experts can add.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 20 Jun 2018 12:19

Neshant wrote:Serious question - is INSAS a bad rifle?


Serious answer - depends on who you ask

Generally speaking it's best to ask the end users directly

There are good rifles and there are bad rifles. Some bad rifles can still be salvaged and turned into good ones

As hinted by ks_sachin, it requires the manufacturer to be customer-centric and take customer feedback seriously on it's merits

Here is an example of how a bad rifle was turned into a reasonably good one.

The Brits had to admit their goof up (of getting it made by a company with not too much past experience), swallow their pride and give it to their arch rivals/enemies, who got the rectifications done by one of their best developer-manufacturers. It may have helped their pride somewhat that H&K was owned by British Aerospace at the time..


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 20 Jun 2018 14:26

Neshant wrote:
This is going to sound like a radical idea but how about the govt encouraging Tata or some big name company to buy out a medium size gun design/manufacturer in Eastern Europe, Israel or the West? Kind of like Tata buying Jaguar & Land Rover. Maybe have them design guns and run OFB's production of it.

They kind of already are, that's what all the JVs are about. They cannot be gung-ho about it because it's perceived as unfair trade practice which China does so rampantly

But that does not explain how China (where gun ownership is strictly prohibited) has managed to do a good job of (copying) Russian and now Western guns.

Do we have any metric which proves a Chinese person has re-designed the guns? We should remember, Chinese have the moolah and the willingness to hire/buy any small/medium scale gun manufacturer to do that and then rapidly produce them in China.
Also we do not have any metric of how good a job the Chinese did while copying the rifles except for a few state media propaganda videos. They are yet to be battle tested and also in operational roles(firing on unarmed civilians do not count). INSAS for all its faults, is tested in operational roles and then is being ostracized.
Now lets assume the Chinese rifles are good enough, then let me put forth a radical idea (with the fear of me being perceived sarcastic but I am not). Why don't GOI buy rifles from the Chinese then? It's economical, Diplomatic and Strategic.


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