Small Arms Thread

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Manish_P
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 24 Oct 2018 13:06

Very valid. Hence the highlight portion 'No rifle passed all the tests without issues'. There is no ultimate rifle since conditions can never be ideal. Likewise there is no ideal calibre since the threats will be varied. And our military seems to be only one (other than the US) which operates in such diverse conditions against such varied threats.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 24 Oct 2018 16:27

I saw in some RT video of spetsnaz maroon baret tryouts, they need to crawl through mud and dust but needed to keep their rifle as clean as possible at the same time so it can be fired to complete the test.
I agree with Manish ji's point that no one rifle is perfect. Taking care of own rifle is an element that is imbibed in training to mitigate many of the issues.
Taking US Army as an example, they fight on most diverse conditions available and yet they do it with AR-15 platform with the cheapest variety possible.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 25 Oct 2018 06:33

souravB wrote:I saw in some RT video of spetsnaz maroon baret tryouts, they need to crawl through mud and dust but needed to keep their rifle as clean as possible at the same time so it can be fired to complete the test.
I agree with Manish ji's point that no one rifle is perfect. Taking care of own rifle is an element that is imbibed in training to mitigate many of the issues.
Taking US Army as an example, they fight on most diverse conditions available and yet they do it with AR-15 platform with the cheapest variety possible.

US army buys M4 from FN at 600 USD per file...
We should have done a FMS for our carbine requirement!,,,

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby SaiK » 25 Oct 2018 18:48

ITBP Soldiers during a parade armed with Ghatak 7.62mm AR https://t.co/lDo0SyWExX

ks_sachin
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 26 Oct 2018 14:13

SaiK wrote:ITBP Soldiers during a parade armed with Ghatak 7.62mm AR https://t.co/lDo0SyWExX

Why do they have 7.62x39?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ryogi » 01 Nov 2018 13:26

Whoa!

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/11/mega-made-in-india-kalashnikov-assault-rifle-deal-before-year-end.html

Livefist learns an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) for a 49.5-50.5 joint venture between JSC Kalashnikov Concern and India’s Ordnance Factory Board will be signed before the end of this year. Under the terms of the JV, Kalashnikov and India’s OFB will raise a new facility to manufacture the AK-103 in India, first for the Indian Army on priority, then for other possible Indian customers (including the central police forces) and then for export. The JV also leaves scope for joint development and manufacture of new firearms in country.


:D :)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tsarkar » 01 Nov 2018 15:26


SaiK
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby SaiK » 01 Nov 2018 19:27

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsle ... Sep_18.pdf
Multi Calibre Individual Weapon System (MCIWS);

IA should focus here and not firang market

ramana
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 01 Nov 2018 20:16

Before INSAS system the IA had 7.62x51 SLR and LMGs. All using same cartridge.
When 5.56x45 mm was viable, the IA wanted a small arms system that uses the cartridge.
This resulted in INSAS rifle, carbine and LMG.

Carbine failed the IA tests and won't go into it.
Rifle on paper looks good with right barrel length etc.
However design and production glitches caused many frustrations.
- Magazine cracks, hot lubricating oil spray, jamming.
Worst was the impotence against terrorist armed with Ak-47 guns.
Per the theory INSAS should have the stopping power.: barrel length, rifling twist, muzzle velocity etc.

If the bullet did not have stopping power its because of loss of velocity which is cartridge driven as barrel length etc are already set.
Are OFB made cartridges up-to snuff?

All involved parties DRDO, OFB, and IA were not forth coming to fix the problems with MoD a passive overseer.
The press also has DDM who can't ask proper questions to find out answers.

Interestingly not much complaint about the INSAS LMG!

The US Army and Marines have gone for M4 and the heavier 7.62mm cartridge is for specialist role.
in fact the Marines have given up on the pistol armament for the officers.
B_Thakur or Manjgu tell me whats really wrong with the picture.
General rants we can get from the web.
I want real issues.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 02 Nov 2018 02:45

ramana wrote:Worst was the impotence against terrorist armed with Ak-47 guns.
Per the theory INSAS should have the stopping power.: barrel length, rifling twist, muzzle velocity etc.

If the bullet did not have stopping power its because of loss of velocity which is cartridge driven as barrel length etc are already set.
Are OFB made cartridges up-to snuff?

No. There are two main reasons for that
  1. The chamber pressure exerted at 335MPa is less than USArmy M855A1 rounds at 430MPa making it weaker at terminal phase. The speed indicated at OFB official website as 890m/s (which I have my own doubt about but cannot prove without data from independent sources) is with 22" LMG barrel, whereas the rifle with 18" barrel will impart much less velocity and as a result stopping power.
    OFB official page
  2. The OFB round (As per their official website) is optimised and tested with a barrel length of 22". Insas using a 18" barrel induces gunk in the gas tube due to improper burning of propellant which leads to failure. USA faced the same problem as per Wiki and mitigated this with testing and refining with their newer M855A1 rounds.
    The M855 was originally made to burn and accelerate from the 20 in (510 mm) barrel of the M249 SAW; then it was repurposed to the M16A2 for ammunition compatibility. When fired from a short-barreled M4, lower muzzle velocity led to decreased terminal effectiveness, and unburned propellant fired from the end of the barrel created a brighter muzzle flash and caused more combustion debris to be pushed back in the gas tube, dirtying the weapon.

All involved parties DRDO, OFB, and IA were not forth coming to fix the problems with MoD a passive overseer.
The press also has DDM who can't ask proper questions to find out answers.

Interestingly not much complaint about the INSAS LMG!

The US Army and Marines have gone for M4 and the heavier 7.62mm cartridge is for specialist role.
in fact the Marines have given up on the pistol armament for the officers.
B_Thakur or Manjgu tell me whats really wrong with the picture.
General rants we can get from the web.
I want real issues.

Not much complaint about the LMG because the round was developed for 22" barrel of the LMG and doesn't present much problem vis a vis Velocity and Maintenance.
Rest of the design defects for Insas rifle you can get from the web aplenty. I just wanted to point out the shortcomings of the OFB made bullet which actually helped bring out the design deficiencies.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 02 Nov 2018 03:07

Excellent insight.
So the round itself needed longer barrel hence accentuated some of the problems.

I see the barrel is 18.3 inches from the wiki page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INSAS_rifle

vs

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/11.htm

So in other words the INSAS rifle is effectively already a carbine!
As M4 is ~18"
Why doesn't OFB provide a 22 " barrel as an option to match the cartridge ballistics?
May be for BSF and CAPF?
is the barrel field changable by the unit armorer?
I note the Ishapore SLR had ~21.7" barrel.

Gerald Bull once wrote in some book about the importance of barrel length to fully develop the velocity for the shot.

souravB, hats off to you for picking up this nugget.

One more question does OFB round match the NATO round ballistics?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 02 Nov 2018 03:39

ramana wrote:Excellent insight.
So the round itself needed longer barrel hence accentuated some of the problems.

I see the barrel is 18.3 inches from the wiki page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INSAS_rifle

vs

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/11.htm

So in other words the INSAS rifle is effectively already a carbine!
As M4 is ~18"
Why doesn't OFB provide a 22 " barrel as an option to match the cartridge ballistics?
May be for BSF and CAPF?
is the barrel field changable by the unit armorer?
I note the Ishapore SLR had ~21.7" barrel.

Gerald Bull once wrote in some book about the importance of barrel length to fully develop the velocity for the shot.

souravB, hats off to you for picking up this nugget.

One more question does OFB round match the NATO round ballistics?

On paper OFB round match the NATO round ballistics, but as I pointed out in my previous comment that how OFB is matching the ballistics with ~25% less chamber pressure and assuming everything else is similar is I do not get (atleast without more data from independent sources).

Also providing larger barrels in rifle is no solution. It increases weight, unwieldiness and cost. One of the reason for moving from SLR was weight and unwieldiness.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 02 Nov 2018 08:23

Which is tried to be addressed by Bullpup format (the length part)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby chetak » 02 Nov 2018 10:10

So, a promising project is stymied at the very outset by giving it away to some grubby, unionized, entitled and low performing "workforce"


Indian Army To Replace INSAS With 6,50,000 Made-In-India Kalashnikovs: Deal With Russia Before Year End


Nov 01 2018

Indian Army To Replace INSAS With 6,50,000 Made-In-India Kalashnikovs: Deal With Russia Before Year End

India and Russia are expected to soon sign an agreement that will make way for indigenous production of assault rifles under the government’s ‘Make in India’ initiative. Indian Army will then have an advantage of producing Kalashnikov rifles at home, reducing the dependency to procure from abroad. The plan is to manufacture 6,50,000 Kalashnikov 7.62 mm AK-103 assault rifles which will progressively replace the INSAS and AK-47 rifles currently in operation.

LiveFist has reported that an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) will be signed between India’s Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and Russia’s JSC Kalashnikov Concern with the Indian company holding 50.5 per cent of the joint venture.

Since 2014, Kalashnikov has been hunting for a local partner to collaborate for production of the weapons. The proposal to tie up with Adani Group has been rejected by the government following the Rafale controversy. Raw materials for production of the rifles will also be sourced indigenously.

Among the AK-103s, the higher performing types will go to the front-line soldiers. Some of the features of the AK-103s include an attachment to mount under-barrel grenade launcher, being able to fold plastic butt, standard mounting rail to install night vision.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 04 Nov 2018 14:59

Yet again the IA brass/MoD demonstrate that they aren't restrained by any consistent logic.

All this time we've been hearing that the IA needed 5.56x45/7.62x51 for conventional roles while retaining a 7.62x39 tool for CI Ops where stopping power takes precedence over accuracy at range.

And lo behold, they flip the whole thing on its head - the bulk of the army is to convert to 7.62x39 while units in field areas are to receive Caracal carbines and SiG battle rifles.

I don't know which is a worse prospect - that the IA planners are clueless or that the GoI is dictating purchases and the IA is merely along for the ride.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 08 Nov 2018 04:10

VivS, I am glad they are getting rid of the 5.56 cartridge as its not suitable for Indian challenges with the incorrect rifle design.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 08 Nov 2018 05:28

The problem IMO is IA is going at the solution from a wrong direction.
Whenever any major infantry goes toward changing of it's firearms, it first chooses a suitable cartridge according to it's needs and then build a gun around it.
We blindly tried to follow US doctrine in the 80s and failed. We want to follow US now, but going to make do with a mix of US+soviet way due to budgetary constraints which isn't a great idea also.
There are numerous other caliber of cartridges available worldwide which can present a suitable solution to our problem. DRDO even played with its MINSAS and 6.8spc rounds. IA instead of working with, closed the door on the projects.
especially 6.8spc is a very good intermediate round for assault rifle. it is developed by some US SF people who fight in as much varied conditions as our army. Probably it or 6.5 telescoped is going to be the next cartridge for USArmy. We could have been ahead of the curve for once. Even MINSAS round is better alternative than 9mm pwd.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 08 Nov 2018 05:37

I agree the 9mm round is history for military use.
The tussle is between the 7.62x51 and the 7.62x39 and OFB makes both
That should count for something.

The old ballistics book had rule of thumb that the barrel length has to be as long as practical to fully develop the muzzle velocity based on the powder used.
That's why the old Afghan jezails were so long barreled and deadly at a distance.

Thanks for pointing out how the INSAS LMG was good because of its 22" barrel which is close to developing its full muzzle velocity.
Cant mess with physics.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 08 Nov 2018 05:58

ramana wrote:VivS, I am glad they are getting rid of the 5.56 cartridge as its not suitable for Indian challenges with the incorrect rifle design.

Ramana. They are not. The Caracal 816 Carbine is 5.56 and in todays day and age a Carbine is the same as a Assault RIfle. THere is no need for a PDW carbine in todays day and age.

The 7.62X51 as a DMR at a section level I understand
The 5.56X45 as a Carbine/ Assault Rifle to replace INSAS I understand (while not agreeing with).
The rest of the ARMY with 7.62 X39 when this is a requirement only for the RR and other troops in COIN duties I dont get.

There is no method to this madness. MY 13 year old would be able to plan t his better! HE makes better buying decisions on FIFA 2018!!!!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 08 Nov 2018 06:03

ramana wrote:I agree the 9mm round is history for military use.
The tussle is between the 7.62x51 and the 7.62x39 and OFB makes both
That should count for something.


Ramana sir it should count for little. The Army should decide on weapon based on how it wants to fight not on what OFB produces. OFB also produces the 5.56 x 45.
The 7.62X39 is a dhobi ka kutta.

ramana wrote:Thanks for pointing out how the INSAS LMG was good because of its 22" barrel which is close to developing its full muzzle velocity.
Cant mess with physics.


WHo says the LMG was a good weapon? Muzzle velocity is not the only thing. It had similar inherent design flaws as the INSAS and you have seen the video on BR itself about its reliability issues.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 08 Nov 2018 22:17

Basically it has to be either 7.62*39 or 5.56*45 not both.

INSAS design became outdated by 2000s and this was realised by DRDO Itself. But in spite of their begging for permission to start a new design, GSQRs was released only in 2008, which turned into MCI WS.

Indian 5.56 round has a slower burning propellant and therefore a longer barrel is required. it seems that ofb has solved this problem and now it is capable of making better rounds

There was no problem in insas carbine except for the fact that it could not fire Indian round. This problem will not be solved by foreign carbine imports also and has to be solved by better ammo which can be fired from a shorter barrel.

The present trend in western countries is to use 5.56 for Carbine, assault rifle, LMG and DMR

But it is supplemented with 7.62 x51 LMG & DMR also

So something like this can be done, in 11 men section

2 carbine 5.56 with ubgl
2 mag fed 5.56 LMG

2 dmr 7.62*51
1 LMG belt fed 7.62*51

4 assault rifle 5.56 (mgl, rcl, RPG etc)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 09 Nov 2018 04:27

Gyan wrote:Basically it has to be either 7.62*39 or 5.56*45 not both.

INSAS design became outdated by 2000s and this was realised by DRDO Itself. But in spite of their begging for permission to start a new design, GSQRs was released only in 2008, which turned into MCI WS.

Indian 5.56 round has a slower burning propellant and therefore a longer barrel is required. it seems that ofb has solved this problem and now it is capable of making better rounds

There was no problem in insas carbine except for the fact that it could not fire Indian round. This problem will not be solved by foreign carbine imports also and has to be solved by better ammo which can be fired from a shorter barrel.

The present trend in western countries is to use 5.56 for Carbine, assault rifle, LMG and DMR

But it is supplemented with 7.62 x51 LMG & DMR also

So something like this can be done, in 11 men section

2 carbine 5.56 with ubgl
2 mag fed 5.56 LMG

2 dmr 7.62*51
1 LMG belt fed 7.62*51

4 assault rifle 5.56 (mgl, rcl, RPG etc)


Gyan do you have the current inf bn platoon weapons holdings? Good to see that.
If there is a 7.62 lmg do we need 5.56?.
What is the diff between a carbine and an assault rifle in this day and age?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Austin » 09 Nov 2018 14:05

Kalashiknov’s for Army – end of fumble?

By Lt Gen Prakash Katoch


Read more at:
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... pc.twitter

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 13 Nov 2018 14:38

ramana wrote:Excellent insight.

So in other words the INSAS rifle is effectively already a carbine!
As M4 is ~18"
?



M4 has a 14.5" (370mm) barrel length / The M16A3/A4 has a 20" barrel length.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 17 Nov 2018 19:28

Due to better propellants and metallurgy there is hardly any difference between 5.56*45 DMR, LMG, Rifle, Carbine. As seen in HK 416 IAR.

Faster & cooler propellant allows shorter barrel and better metallurgy allows for thinner barrel.

5.56*45 round is more versatile & adopting AK is regressive action compared to MCIWS

In the combination, I have suggested above 7.62*51 is primarily to provide longer reach & better ANTI MATERIAL effect in urban & jungle areas.

5.56*45 LMG is basically a rifle with bipod but essential for flanking movements & mobility. It's difficult to achieve high mobility with one person Manning belt fed 7.62*51. Gpmg.

But GPMG fire power & moral support is very important in majority of conflicts. Basically firefight is between GPMG, DMRs & grenade launchers with rifles as defensive weapons.


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