Small Arms Thread

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 13 Sep 2009 23:59

Brando wrote:
Optical sights for an AK ?? That sounds pretty bizarre. The AK is not meant to be a precision weapon. Adding an optical sight isnt going to make any difference towards accuracy at all.

Not really. Plenty of sights are made for close-combat, and the requirement may be for such sights. For example, consider the red-dot sights made for modern shotguns - shotguns surely have way less range than an AK, but tactical scenarios exist where such sights can be very useful.

Brando wrote:I think Indian soldiers should use more foreign weapons in greater numbers, if just to understand how good their weapons are. Even the US uses German and Belgian rifles in large numbers. Its best to get out the INSAS rut as soon as possible and get foreign companies to manufacture rifles in India for the Indian Army's needs. That would satisfy the Indian Army, which wants decent rifles and those who are averse to Western produced defense equipment.

Evaluation units do it all the time. Domestic license production was seriously considered with the most innovative developments of 1980s - Steyr AUG, HK53, FN FNC and an East German prototype. Various pros and cons were identified with each, and ultimately DRDO suggested they could come up with a design incorporating pros of all those - result the INSAS family. The INSAS is still a pretty good design in theory. If produced with proper materials, some adjustments to ergonomics and solid quality control it will be a very good weapon as well. In fact, I has a "Doh!" moment a few hours after I posted my response to Bheem - a well made INSAS with some cosmetic changes to the furniture will actually be a Sig 556!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bheem » 14 Sep 2009 00:12

ParGha wrote: In fact, I has a "Doh!" moment a few hours after I posted my response to Bheem - a well made INSAS with some cosmetic changes to the furniture will actually be a Sig 556!


Thank God at last, I am able to convert atleast one convert to my point of view. INSAS "is a" SIG just a small redesign away perhaps costing a couple of crores in R&D. The same plant can produce the New SIG-INSAS rifle with no major stoppage or re-jigs.

AM very curious to know what is kalantak, another short barrelled INSAS or modified to SIG level INSAS

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 14 Sep 2009 00:13

RayC wrote:I wonder why the Indian soldiers looks so tacky and yet they deliver and why those who look like Beckham and metrosexual are such failures? All the glitters is not gold!

Sir, in fairness, he did ask why Indian rifles look so tacky. Personally I think the ones issued to the army look okay enough, though quality control should be improved. The OFB/DRDO designs that do look terribly tacky are the designs that try to look metro - but fortunately they don't seem to go into production. OTOH they also come up with designs that are plain awkward - can't have them pass of awkward as desi onlee either!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 14 Sep 2009 00:55

Bheem wrote:Thank God at last, I am able to convert atleast one convert to my point of view. INSAS "is a" SIG just a small redesign away perhaps costing a couple of crores in R&D. The same plant can produce the New SIG-INSAS rifle with no major stoppage or re-jigs.

Preaching to the choir, reverend, preaching to the choir.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 14 Sep 2009 12:32

ParGha wrote:Sir, in fairness, he did ask why Indian rifles look so tacky. Personally I think the ones issued to the army look okay enough, though quality control should be improved. The OFB/DRDO designs that do look terribly tacky are the designs that try to look metro - but fortunately they don't seem to go into production. OTOH they also come up with designs that are plain awkward - can't have them pass of awkward as desi onlee either!


Look, what we look for is something that will save our lives and kill the enemy.

It should be convenient to use in all types of battle conditions.

How does it matter how it looks.

AK 47 before all this terrorism and Iraq was done down in all US sites. How come this 'tacky' weapon became the US soldiers favourite in Iraq over their sleek and 'beautiful' M16?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bheem » 14 Sep 2009 12:43

Edited:

Most of the present assault rifles in the world are derived from two designs being Ak-47 and M-16. Ak-47 “firing mechanism & extraction” is very rugged while the M-16 focuses on accuracy and low recoil on auto. Some European nations decided to adopt Ak-47/74 design & combined with higher quality manufacturing. Prime examples are FNC, Bofors, Valmet, Galil, Beretta to name a few. My take, is that these designs left a lot to be desired as they placed the aiming sights on top of the hinged dust cover of the receiver . It is like building a Porche in which the only way to get in, is through the sun roof. Everytime you open the rifle to clean it, it will loose its zero. If the rifle is banged around even a little it will again lose its zero. Hence even though solidly made, the rifles "seemed" delicate. So, even as these rifles were introduced, the European nations started working on rectifying this short coming by adopting M-16/Sig layout. M-16 was poor/delicate firing & extraction mechanism but a good layout primarily due to its ability to be field stripped by opening the lower receiver. Such that the upper receiver + barrel + sights were always rigidly attached with no movable joints in the middle.Now “almost all the modern designs” have adopted the firing mechanism of AK-47/74 with M-16 style layout which was started by Sig and has been followed by Scar, Hk-416 & 417, new Colt designs, G-36, New Beretta designs and also NEW Chinese rifles etc. This is also due to the fact that optical, night, thermal & holographic sights are becoming a norm/standard on almost all the rifles and they must be attached in a manner to the rifle that will preserve its zero even if rifle is banged about or optics are changed. Also the concept of DMR in each section in also finding favor, which means rifles and associated sights must be accurate & preserve its zero on long patrols. INSAS is also 1980s design with the same fault of aforesaid early European rifles that sights are placed on top of hinged dust cover. Every time the rifle has to be field stripped, the cover has to be practically hammered open and the gun loses its zero. This lay out is also not suitable for mounting optical sights and picatinny rails. INSAS design is like FNC design and easily be evolved to new SCAR or G-36. The cost of R&D would be only Rs. 10 crores or so and it will save One Billon dollar imports.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 14 Sep 2009 13:25

It is not only field stripping that ruins the zeroing, but any rough handling.

That is why, before going in for an attack, one does the zeroing once again!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bheem » 15 Sep 2009 22:56

RayC wrote:It is not only field stripping that ruins the zeroing, but any rough handling.

That is why, before going in for an attack, one does the zeroing once again!



I suppose the idea is that field stripping should nor ruin the zero. Also the other requirement would be that the zero should drift as less as possible on (rough) handling or while changing the sights. Incidentally, Normal zeroing would require firing the weapon, so when does jawans on long patrols zero their weapons? Incidentally in the RFP/tender issued by Indian army for assault rifles posted above, there is no mention of specifications for ruggedness and ability to retain zero, which is supposedly the main reason the INSAS is being replaced.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 16 Sep 2009 18:12

Bheem wrote:
RayC wrote:It is not only field stripping that ruins the zeroing, but any rough handling.

That is why, before going in for an attack, one does the zeroing once again!



I suppose the idea is that field stripping should nor ruin the zero. Also the other requirement would be that the zero should drift as less as possible on (rough) handling or while changing the sights. Incidentally, Normal zeroing would require firing the weapon, so when does jawans on long patrols zero their weapons? Incidentally in the RFP/tender issued by Indian army for assault rifles posted above, there is no mention of specifications for ruggedness and ability to retain zero, which is supposedly the main reason the INSAS is being replaced.


I will like to amplify that by rough handling, I mean real rough handling i.e. the weapon falling down hard etc that affects zeroing.

I started my career with the good old .303 and went through the FN, AK 47 and INSAS. The.303 was the best to stand 'rough handling'.

When embarking on LRPs the weapons are zeroed prior to move. In war, they are zeroed in the Conentration Area and then test fired at the Assembly Area before moving up to the Forming Up Place.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby krishnan » 16 Sep 2009 19:06

Pardon my ignorance , but what do you mean by zeroing?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Lalmohan » 17 Sep 2009 02:32

^^^ making sure that the sights on the gun correctly indicate the range and direction such that the firer hits what he is aiming at and not some other point that the sight is aiming at

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 17 Sep 2009 10:05

Each firer's eye has its unique and singular characteristic when aiming at a target.

Therefore, the weapon sights have to be adjusted as per the requirement of the firer's eye characteristics when aiming at a target.

This article will give some idea about what is zeroing.

Zeroing

However, it is for the M16 rifle.

On the FN Rifle

Zeroing the FN rifle is easy. Elevation is handled by the foresight, which is simply screwed up or down (when zeroing an S.L.R., you must first slacken off the foresight locking screw in front of the sight block). Remember, to RAISE the point of impact on the target, you must LOWER the foresight (and vice-versa). Lateral adjustments are made on the rear sight, by means of the opposing screws on either side of the sight. To move bullet impact on the target to the LEFT, you will need to move the foresight to the LEFT (and vice-versa again). In order to do this, first slacken off the left hand screw by the desired number of clicks, then tighten the right hand screw by the same amount (one click = approximately 1cm. of adjustment at 100 metres).

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby krishnan » 17 Sep 2009 11:22

Interesting, never knewn soldiers had to do such things

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bheem » 17 Sep 2009 13:52

krishnan wrote:Interesting, never knewn soldiers had to do such things


Inital Zeroing is pretty elaborate excercise in which soldier is mated to his first buddy - his rifle

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby AmitR » 20 Sep 2009 11:09

Indian Army Special Forces For New 9mm Pistol

The Indian Army has put out a request for information (RFI) for new semi-automatic 9mm (9x19) pistols for its Special Forces and Parachute units. According to the RFI document, the Army has detailed that it is looking for a weapon that has "the option of fixing on a laser and a high intensity flash light. It should be light weight, easy to carry and operate, robust pistol with which a Para Trooper should be able to carry out static line and free fall parachute jumps with the weapon on person/packed in the rucksack/weapon container."


So this country can make ATVs, IRBM, Nukes but can't seem to be able to make a 9mm pistol.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 20 Sep 2009 11:16

^^ and in that we are in the exalted society of countries that include the US and UK. :wink:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Paul » 20 Sep 2009 11:17

The standard US Army firearm is the Beretta (Italian) for many years. Law enforcement agencies across the US use the Glock (Czech). These weapons are preferred over locally made manufacturers like Smith/Wesson or Colt.

Something for brown sahibs to mull about.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby AmitR » 20 Sep 2009 11:22

Paul wrote:The standard US Army firearm is the Beretta (Italian) for many years. Law enforcement agencies across the US use the Glock (Czech). These weapons are preferred over locally made manufacturers like Smith/Wesson or Colt.

Something for brown sahibs to mull about.


So we are trying to be more angrez than the angrezs themselves.
How about building and ICBM and TN first, just like the angrezs.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 20 Sep 2009 11:51

Small correction: Glock is Austrian, not Czech. By the way, US military procurement rules state that the manufacturer must have their plant in the US, otherwise they wouldn't be eligible for selection. This is the reason why Beretta was picked over Glock for the US military, because Glock wasn't willing to set up a US plant at that time.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 20 Sep 2009 17:36

AmitR wrote:Indian Army Special Forces For New 9mm Pistol
So this country can make ATVs, IRBM, Nukes but can't seem to be able to make a 9mm pistol.

That is right. OFB has been making FN35s since late 1950s. It is a 1930s design, fundamentally very good and relevant for many more decades to come (unless there is a sudden revolution in small arms technology). But it hasn't been upgraded. Bring it up to Mk III and you will have a proven design that plays well with modern accessories. However OFB shows no interest in doing so - Mk III has been around since 1980s. When things come to a head the GoI authorizes a few purchases here and there (some Cz75s, Glock 17s, Glock 19s), some come with the package (Makarovs with Russian planes etc), and some seem to come from mysterious sources (Tokarevs, Walthers and Berretas).

ArmenT wrote:This is the reason why Beretta was picked over Glock for the US military, because Glock wasn't willing to set up a US plant at that time.

Glocks don't have external safeties, which was a mil spec req.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RameshC » 20 Sep 2009 17:38

ArmenT wrote:Small correction: Glock is Austrian, not Czech. By the way, US military procurement rules state that the manufacturer must have their plant in the US, otherwise they wouldn't be eligible for selection. This is the reason why Beretta was picked over Glock for the US military, because Glock wasn't willing to set up a US plant at that time.


yup, the SCAR, the HK 416 were designed in the US. The HK 416 though reliable is only 5.56mm, not good enough. SCAR, Bushmaster ACR, Barrett M468, LWRC M-6, M-4 modified Beowulf .50caliber, M-4 modified Grendel 6.5mm rifle, KRISS are better options and i am sure will be tested by our people soon. i think we are producing AK101/103 in India under licence as well as our own AK-7, haven't heard anything about Kalantak or minsas mk-2 wonder if they have been accepted into service, can anyone please shed some light on it. Most of these imports are for NSG, Garuds, SFF, Marcos, COBRAs, National rifles, SSB, CRPF, Greyhounds, Force-1 and other specialized forces. the INSAS will then probably become the mainstay of the State and central police forces, the infantry will recieve a multicaliber rifle (5.56/6.8/7.26) with UBGL after its been tested around 2011.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nikhil_p » 21 Sep 2009 19:17

AmitR wrote:Indian Army Special Forces For New 9mm Pistol

The Indian Army has put out a request for information (RFI) for new semi-automatic 9mm (9x19) pistols for its Special Forces and Parachute units. According to the RFI document, the Army has detailed that it is looking for a weapon that has "the option of fixing on a laser and a high intensity flash light. It should be light weight, easy to carry and operate, robust pistol with which a Para Trooper should be able to carry out static line and free fall parachute jumps with the weapon on person/packed in the rucksack/weapon container."


So this country can make ATVs, IRBM, Nukes but can't seem to be able to make a 9mm pistol.


We DO make 9mm pistols...
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/7.htm

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Raj Malhotra » 21 Sep 2009 21:30

OFB makes a robust but old design which needs to be updated. We had around 20 years to do so but imports are always better

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nikhil_p » 21 Sep 2009 21:33

Raj Malhotra wrote:OFB makes a robust but old design which needs to be updated. We had around 20 years to do so but imports are always better

I just wanted to say....We can make BUM and also the MIJJILE and also the BANDOOK!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gerard » 23 Sep 2009 02:49


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby CalvinH » 23 Sep 2009 03:22

AmitR wrote:Indian Army Special Forces For New 9mm Pistol

The Indian Army has put out a request for information (RFI) for new semi-automatic 9mm (9x19) pistols for its Special Forces and Parachute units. According to the RFI document, the Army has detailed that it is looking for a weapon that has "the option of fixing on a laser and a high intensity flash light. It should be light weight, easy to carry and operate, robust pistol with which a Para Trooper should be able to carry out static line and free fall parachute jumps with the weapon on person/packed in the rucksack/weapon container."


So this country can make ATVs, IRBM, Nukes but can't seem to be able to make a 9mm pistol.


By the way how many countries/companies are willing to sell ATV, IRBM and Nukes in market.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby sunny y » 23 Sep 2009 20:27

Hi....just watched Kaminey....There was this scene where one of the protagonist introduces INSAS to the customer. This was the first time I ever saw INSAS being discussed in any bollywood movie. I don't about others but I felt proud.
We all have seen M16 being extensively shown in hollywood movies whereas we always had some connection only with AK's or Sterlings. So it was good to hear about INSAS in a movie.

I specially like the line where he says " INSAS, Kargil ki heroine"

I know this post has nothing to do with defence but I thought I should discuss it. Apologies if this is inappropriate.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby dinesha » 24 Sep 2009 20:09

Grenades issue: matter being looked into, says Army
http://www.ptinews.com/news/298583_Gren ... -says-DGQA

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rajeshks » 24 Sep 2009 21:06

wiki List of Pistols.. None from india :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pistols

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 24 Sep 2009 21:32

rajeshks wrote:wiki List of Pistols.. None from india :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pistols

Look under "P"

"Pistol AUTO 9 mm 1A" is from India

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rajeshks » 25 Sep 2009 13:45

Dmurphy wrote:
rajeshks wrote:wiki List of Pistols.. None from india :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pistols

Look under "P"

"Pistol AUTO 9 mm 1A" is from India


Was that added yesterday?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Igorr » 29 Sep 2009 19:28

The Russian ADS dual-medium assault rifle, demonstrated during the last marines exercises. Could be interesting for Indian MARCOS too I think:
ImageImage
The video with ADS AR, GSh-18 pistol with submerged rounds:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 29 Sep 2009 20:24

Dmurphy wrote:
rajeshks wrote:wiki List of Pistols.. None from india :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pistols

Look under "P"

"Pistol AUTO 9 mm 1A" is from India

This pistol looks like a clone of the classic Browning Hi-Power 9mm (at least in the external view)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 02 Oct 2009 16:05

ArmenT wrote:This pistol looks like a clone of the classic Browning Hi-Power 9mm (at least in the external view)

It is the Indian production of Inglis FN35.

On an unrelated note, I found out that OFB did put its AKM copy - A7 - into limited production, but failed to meet the quality standards set by MoD and MHA (who went with Bulgarian production). The deficient prototypes were apparently sold to some state forces.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 02 Oct 2009 19:46

ParGha wrote:
ArmenT wrote:This pistol looks like a clone of the classic Browning Hi-Power 9mm (at least in the external view)

It is the Indian production of Inglis FN35.

Any info that it is the Indian production of that particular variant of the Browning Hi-power? The reason I ask is because the Hi-Power has a number of variants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_Hi-Power
Note that it states that even Inglis (John Inglis and Co) produced two versions of the Browning. Also says that India uses the Mark-I variant as a standard sidearm. The Mark-I was an improvement of the P-35 which is what Inglis was producing as the Inglis FNP-35.

[edit]Never mind. Did a bit of googling myself and it seems that OFB is producing the Inglis variant (allegedly using the same Inglis equipment that they used in WW-II), except for a minor difference in the sights[/edit]

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Raj Malhotra » 02 Oct 2009 21:03

Coming back to Insas, one of the things we miss out that Insas is a “weapon system” in which the round is as important as the rifle. One of the major problems with the Insas carbine due to which it was rejected was ‘supposed’ to be large flash and recoil when it was fired. Now the point is whether this was a problem with rifle or the round. Note – Indian round is different from NATO round. An Insas designer on WAF stated that it was due to the fact that the propellant of Indian round burned outside the 13inch barrel due to its “designed burn profile”. Now if this is the problem then it will not be solved by import of carbines and can only be solved by more advanced/different rounds. There is also a misconception that new rounds cannot be fired from existing rifles. New rounds can be back compatible with old rifles. For instance USA was using NATO round Mk855, introduced new Mk262 and now has developed new Mk318 especially designed to be fired from “short barreled rifles”. More advanced rounds in 5.56mm category with bullet weights of 100 grains are supposedly in development but not much information is available in google domain. I think Drdo also has to concentrate on developing new rounds/bullets. USA is supposedly introducing new bullets optimized for short barreled 5.56mm -14 inch barrel and 7.62mm -16inch barrel rifles. The mark319 bullet is optimized for 16inch barrel 7.62mm rifles which means that such rifles will be shorter than SLR & Insas rifles while having way more punch. Simply speaking Insas carbine can be saved with better/new bullets. It seems that DRDO-OFB is offering MSMC 5.56x30 as carbine and INSAS 5.56mmx45 as standard rifle. I think that MSMC is too weak and carbine should be 5.56mm itself with better bullets optimized for short barreled carbines. While each section should also have atleast 2 short barreled 7.62 rifles to be used as DMR and for long range firing. With the advent of BPJs, sole reliance on 5.56mm can prove counterproductive in conventional warfare. This technology for faster burning propellant can be used to produce shorter barreled sniper and anti-material rifles also. Wonder Indian Army-OFB-DRDO is looking in this direction or we are going to be import obsessesed.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantrysm ... ii8524.pdf

See page 24 & 25

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Surya » 02 Oct 2009 21:09

Thanks Igorr

nice to see the Head of Govt - actually knowing the right end of the weapon from the wrong end

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 06 Oct 2009 11:48

Hey look...all black INSAS! Much better than the orange coloured plastic looks *ducks for cover* :D

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Avinash R » 06 Oct 2009 11:58

^Small mistake, not one of them is carrying a INSAS rifle :)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ssmitra » 06 Oct 2009 12:02

Dmurphy wrote:Hey look...all black INSAS! Much better than the orange coloured plastic looks *ducks for cover* :D

Image


ISn't this the ishapore FAL

yep that is the FN FAL

damn avinash beat me to it


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