Small Arms Thread

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krishnan
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby krishnan » 15 Nov 2009 18:31

rahulm wrote:This particular officer minimised the accuracy issue in auto (3-round burst) mode by prohibiting the use of rifle slings for his paltan.

Apparently, this practice produced stronger wrists and fingers resulting in better control and thus accuracy in burst mode.


And the reason is this

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009 ... sign-ever/

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Avinash R » 15 Nov 2009 18:53

^Nice BS, picture of nepalese maoists carrying insas assault rifle is named "INSAS-carbine-tm.jpg" :rotfl: This is the expertise of the person running the "firearmblog".
He has linked TOI resident idiot Shishir Arya's article to spread lies but wont mention that INSAS has the backing at the highest levels in the indian army. check the previous article where previous army chief has personally backed INSAS.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby koti » 15 Nov 2009 23:36

krishnan wrote:And the reason is this

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009 ... sign-ever/

That site is nothing but a commercial adspace for firearms. The articles are all assumptions or link to reports from papers like Times. Follow the site if you like hunting. You don't have to read any marketing articles from it.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby koti » 24 Nov 2009 23:58

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MUp93HooCo
I've just watched this video. The recoil at full auto is remarkably controllable. And we are not even using the bipod here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCBoTGKXVQs
In the`above video, the Insas fires single round and 2 round bursts like a fully auto rifle. Can anyone explain this?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 25 Nov 2009 00:45

koti wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MUp93HooCo
I've just watched this video. The recoil at full auto is remarkably controllable. And we are not even using the bipod here.


Yes, the lack of recoil is kinda surprising. Must do wonders for the accuracy in full auto.

koti wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCBoTGKXVQs
In the`above video, the Insas fires single round and 2 round bursts like a fully auto rifle. Can anyone explain this?


What do you mean? It seems to be firing exactly as it should. AFAIK, in burst mode the 2 or 3 rounds are supposed to fire quickly minimizing recoil.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Virupaksha » 25 Nov 2009 01:11

koti wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCBoTGKXVQs
In the`above video, the Insas fires single round and 2 round bursts like a fully auto rifle. Can anyone explain this?

Koti,

Insas doesnt have a full auto mode. It has only single round, 3 round burst mode to conserve ammo. The unofficial policy of Indian army is something like one bullet to take down one enemy.

Thus the IA specifically in Insas asked NOT to have a full auto mode.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Avinash R » 25 Nov 2009 11:05

koti wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MUp93HooCo
I've just watched this video. The recoil at full auto is remarkably controllable. And we are not even using the bipod here.


Good video, he empties the full mag in 5 secs :D and thanks for posting this.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 25 Nov 2009 11:16

koti is right, that looks like full auto. probably the LMG version as the vid says later.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 25 Nov 2009 11:35

Rahul M wrote:koti is right, that looks like full auto. probably the LMG version as the vid says later.

It is the LMG version. Note the folded bipod under the barrel at the front of the weapon. The rifle doesn't have the bipod integrated into it, but the LMG version does.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby koti » 25 Nov 2009 12:24

ArmenT wrote:
Rahul M wrote:koti is right, that looks like full auto. probably the LMG version as the vid says later.

It is the LMG version. Note the folded bipod under the barrel at the front of the weapon. The rifle doesn't have the bipod integrated into it, but the LMG version does.

No. Look at the second video. what i was referring to is the Insas AR not LMG....
koti wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MUp93HooCo
I've just watched this video. The recoil at full auto is remarkably controllable. And we are not even using the bipod here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCBoTGKXVQs
In the`above video, the Insas fires single round and 2 round bursts like a fully auto rifle. Can anyone explain this?


The person firing the Insas AR(towards the middle of the video) fires single shot and 2 round burst without apparent change in the selector liver.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 25 Nov 2009 21:26

This is an INSAS, not an AK. It doesn't have a selector lever, it has a selector switch and it is located right above the grip and can be activated by the thumb. M16 and FN-FAL also have a selector switch like this.

The problem with the AK lever is that (a) it is hard to manipulate and (b) it is inconveniently located. For right handers, you have to take the rifle off your shoulder and place it on the ground to manipulate the lever. With INSAS, M16 and FN-FAL, a right hander can simply take their thumb off the grip, move it up and rotate the switch, all while keeping the weapon pointed at the target.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby koti » 25 Nov 2009 21:59

My bad.......It is selector switch indeed.....
Can anyone address the full-auto behavior if Insas AR in the second video?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 26 Nov 2009 12:26

koti wrote:My bad.......It is selector switch indeed.....
Can anyone address the full-auto behavior if Insas AR in the second video?

The second video doesn't show any firing in full auto mode. All they're firing is single shot and 3 round burst, which is what the capabilities of the INSAS AR are. You can see in the video before they start firing in the prone position, the chap in charge even yells to fire in single shot mode.

If you're referring to the first part of the video where the guys fire a mixture of single round and three round bursts, this is possible in two different ways.

The first way is to rotate the selector switch with the thumb to flip between single shot mode and 3 round burst mode. Like I mentioned above, the INSAS ergonomics (also true for M16, FN-FAL, some HKs etc.) allows the user to rotate the switch while keeping the rifle pointed at the target and a finger ready to fire on the trigger, which is not possible in an AK47.

The second way: It is possible to fire single round or two rounds even when you're in 3 round burst mode, if you pull your finger off the trigger quick enough. That's probably the technique they're using in the video.

Just to clarify matters, when you're in three round burst mode, if you hold down the trigger long enough, it will fire three rounds and then stop. You'll need to release and pull the trigger again if you want it to fire some more. This is not the same as full-auto mode, which is where it will keep firing as long as the trigger is depressed. The INSAS AR doesn't have full auto mode, but the INSAS LMG does. This is because the Indian Army specified that this is what they wanted in the different models.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby koti » 26 Nov 2009 18:34

Oh...Thanks for the info.
I was thinking a single trigger pull fires 3 rounds when in burst mode.
I had the privilege to cock the Insas once, but didn't observe the selector switch.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Marut » 27 Nov 2009 00:08

koti wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCBoTGKXVQs
In the`above video, the Insas fires single round and 2 round bursts like a fully auto rifle. Can anyone explain this?


In the above video around the 1:45 mark where these chaps are firing the INSAS, the soldiers nearby use their hand to deflect the spent casings from flying away. Normally they would use a spent casing collector as seen in many pics on this forum. So question to more gyaani folks, how much force/energy does the spent casing have? Isn't it hot due to the propellant burn? How hard does it sting when it hits your hand or are these jawans just being macho? :lol:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 27 Nov 2009 12:30

Marut wrote:In the above video around the 1:45 mark where these chaps are firing the INSAS, the soldiers nearby use their hand to deflect the spent casings from flying away. Normally they would use a spent casing collector as seen in many pics on this forum. So question to more gyaani folks, how much force/energy does the spent casing have? Isn't it hot due to the propellant burn? How hard does it sting when it hits your hand or are these jawans just being macho? :lol:

Saarji, I think they're doing it to be macho really. The velocity of the ejected cases isn't that high, but they can get bloody hot. I have no idea why they're using their bare hands, when a simple sheet of cardboard would insulate and protect their hands so much better. Either that, or they should have put the two shooters a little further apart so the spent casings wouldn't hit the other guy

Speaking of which, last time I was at the range, there was a curvy TFTA girl in the next booth and she took off her long sleeve shirt before firing, only wearing a low-cut tank top. Suddenly I heard a squeal and saw her hopping around. A few minutes later, I saw it happen again. She was firing her boyfriend's HK USP and a spent casing bounced off the side of the booth and went down her low-cut tank top and got stuck in her bra :D

I took an ejected case from a 45 to my forearm once too. It didn't hit too hard and it is a good thing my shirt sleeve was in the way, otherwise it could have left a nice burn mark.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 27 Nov 2009 13:04

Spent casings are important for accountability.

They have to be returned to the Ordnance.

It is to ensure that none take live bullets home for use for 'other purpose'.

Age old practice!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby D Roy » 27 Nov 2009 18:08

Alright,

this is off topic,
nevertheless here's a piglet stopper that was forgotten. Must say, pretty cool looking rifle for a 7.62x51 mm.

Madsen light automatic rifle LAR M/62

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 01 Dec 2009 19:12

Marut wrote:
koti wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCBoTGKXVQs
In the`above video, the Insas fires single round and 2 round bursts like a fully auto rifle. Can anyone explain this?


In the above video around the 1:45 mark where these chaps are firing the INSAS, the soldiers nearby use their hand to deflect the spent casings from flying away. Normally they would use a spent casing collector as seen in many pics on this forum. So question to more gyaani folks, how much force/energy does the spent casing have? Isn't it hot due to the propellant burn? How hard does it sting when it hits your hand or are these jawans just being macho? :lol:


To stop the spent cases from getting lost, there is another soldier next to the firer who uses his jungle cap/ cloth bags attached to stop the spent cases.

The Sardarji is merely showing off and acting macho!

The firing point officer is at fault for such lax behaviour and it jeopardises safety wherein if the hand cannot stop the spent case, it would go and hit the firer on the right of the firer and he could get distracted and fire in a manner endangering others!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tsarkar » 01 Dec 2009 20:17

“Other Purposes” are as crazy as it goes.

Naval ships use scare charges as an anti-diver / anti-saboteur measure. They work similar to anti-submarine depth charges, except that their explosive power is equivalent to hand grenades. The shock wave is good enough to kill or knock out divers in vicinity. Security detail onboard ships in harbor regularly deploy scare charges.

These scare charges make to the top of the pilfer list since sailors use them in their villages to stun and kill fishes in ponds/lakes/rivers if hosting a lavish dinner for their family and friends.

Watch keeping officers make it a point to keep tally of scare charges issued and used. It’s very common to hear excuses. The officer hears five explosions and the sailor claims to have used six scare charges. The best excuse I heard was that the sailor dropped two charges together.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby mmasand » 10 Dec 2009 19:40

saw some new fancy M 4 Colt rifles and an inspector with a M&P 9mm pistol in a holster on his right hip (something new) near gateway.Didnt have a camera or would have happily clicked away....:-)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gerard » 13 Dec 2009 22:11

Credible?

Times Sq. gunman held weapon like rapper
A Times Square bloodbath was narrowly avoided because the machine-pistol-toting thug who fired at a cop flipped the gun on its side like a character out of a rap video, causing the weapon to jam after two shots, law-enforcement sources said yesterday.

When scam artist Raymond "Ready" Martinez held the MAC-10-style gun parallel to the ground, it caused the ejecting shells to "stovepipe," or get caught vertically in the chamber, the sources said. The gun is designed to be fired only in a vertical position.

If he had fired the weapon -- which had another 27 rounds in the clip -- properly, Martinez, 25, could have killed the hero cop pursuing him and countless others walking through the swarming tourist mecca Thursday morning.

Instead, Sgt. Christopher Newsom was able to return fire -- killing Martinez with four shots before anyone was hurt.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Amit A » 14 Dec 2009 00:46

Do any of the guru's know if there are there any plans for the introduction of 6.5/6.8 mm rifles or as a follow on to the INSAS program.
Recent tv prog. have shown impressive stopping power. I think it is coming into vogue as a compromise between 5.56 and 7.62 mm rounds.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 14 Dec 2009 04:53


Completely credible saarji. First, a gun can jam for various reasons:

Most of the time, failure to fire is due to a dud cartridge (i.e.) the round doesn't fire with enough force to go through the ejection cycle, or only the primer goes off and nothing happens. One more common cause is because people may reload cartridges or use old cartridges that have been deformed and such. In this case, because of the deformation, the ejection claw may not be able to pull the spent cartridge clear. Another reason is because of old/worn out gun parts that make the ejection mechanism not work right.

Fourth reason is called "limp wristing". Basically, you don't hold a gun rigidly enough so that when you fire, the gun muzzle jerks severely and thus the slide doesn't move fully back to eject the spent cartridge completely. Usually happens to lady shooters who're handling a weapon a bit too powerful for then, but also happens to unsuspecting guys who try to shoot something too big. It also happens more often to people who try to shoot sideways-gangsta-grip style (a.k.a rapper style) because they can't adequately support the weapon's recoil when they're holding it sideways and with one hand alone. The result is stove piping, since the just-fired cartridge isn't fully ejected.

The problem with gangsta grips is that, besides limp wristing the weapon, you can't aim as well as if you hold the weapon normally and you have a better chance of receiving a hot cartridge to the face (at least for right handers). Not only that, if a gun jams due to one of the other reasons (not just limp wristing), it'll take you longer to clear the weapon as well.

Sideways gangsta grips only work in rap videos and John Woo movies. You never see an olympic marksman shooting gangsta style for good reasons.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby kaangeya » 15 Dec 2009 03:28

A few minutes later, I saw it happen again. She was firing her boyfriend's HK USP and a spent casing bounced off the side of the booth...
Bad range manners. It's max two to a booth right, unless this was a menage a trois :mrgreen: The excessive detail because you must have been gawking like crazy :P :mrgreen:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 15 Dec 2009 08:34

kaangeya wrote:Bad range manners. It's max two to a booth right, unless this was a menage a trois :mrgreen: The excessive detail because you must have been gawking like crazy :P :mrgreen:

Nah, it's one to a booth -- you want a divider in between so you don't get showered by hot brass from your neighbour. First time she squealed I didn't see what happened because I was shooting, but I saw her back out of her booth and hop around a bit. Second time it happened, I got a pretty good view of what happened as I was standing next to the back wall while my friend was shooting :D.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 18 Dec 2009 13:13

U.S. army's improved magazine.

the Improved Magazine effectively reduces the risk of magazine-related stoppages by more than 50 percent compared to the older magazine variants.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rahulm » 19 Dec 2009 20:27

Today returned from a long trip of the Northern Sector and am back in circulation.

Had the great fortune to be embedded in and part of a weekly training live firing drill of the RR. Host specifically instructed the JCO to ensure I was put through the paces. End result was a trip to a valley with a firing range facility. All were in battle gear except I. We are talking live RR sectors here.

Was introduced to a AK47 and LMG. Fired off 3 x 10 rounds AK47 and 2 x 10 LMG at target. LMG was fired in single shot and burst mode. Had never held or fired either gun before in my life with my only experience limited to firing pellets from air rifles in my teens.

AK47 was fired in a sitting position and LMG in a lying down position. The LMG gripping technique while lying down needs getting used to. The elbows start hurting very quickly.

Firing was in done groups of 4 jawans and I would replace one of the jawans when it was my turn.There was always another jawan next to you with cap suitably placed against the weapon to collect empty shells. RayC has already alluded to this process. The technical term for this is "ginti ka khoka"

The AK47 recoil was far less than I imagined and depends a lot on maintaining the correct grip. The LMG bounced around a bit. This particular unit does not operate the INSAS currently although many have operated the weapon before.

My best score was 9/10 within the target. First attempt was 0/10. I was astonished to see first hand that most of the jawans were very good shooters. I also learnt what the smell of cordite is like having read this phrase many times in Commando comics and war novels. Its not a pleasant smell.

Have photos but would be error of judgment on my part to publish.

What would the IA do without kerosine?

Met with and broke bread with many Kargil heroes, both jawans and officers. Lots of other goodies that will have to wait for a bit until I recover.

Kersi, received your message and apologies for not responding earlier. Please get in touch.

Maz, will respond to your email.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 19 Dec 2009 21:12

rahulm wrote:Today returned from a long trip of the Northern Sector and am back in circulation.

Had the great fortune to be embedded in and part of a weekly training live firing drill of the RR. Host specifically instructed the JCO to ensure I was put through the paces. End result was a trip to a valley with a firing range facility. All were in battle gear except I. We are talking live RR sectors here.

Was introduced to a AK47 and LMG. Fired off 3 x 10 rounds AK47 and 2 x 10 LMG at target. LMG was fired in single shot and burst mode. Had never held or fired either gun before in my life with my only experience limited to firing pellets from air rifles in my teens.

AK47 was fired in a sitting position and LMG in a lying down position. The LMG gripping technique while lying down needs getting used to. The elbows start hurting very quickly.

Firing was in done groups of 4 jawans and I would replace one of the jawans when it was my turn.There was always another jawan next to you with cap suitably placed against the weapon to collect empty shells. RayC has already alluded to this process. The technical term for this is "ginti ka khoka"

The AK47 recoil was far less than I imagined and depends a lot on maintaining the correct grip. The LMG bounced around a bit. This particular unit does not operate the INSAS currently although many have operated the weapon before.

My best score was 9/10 within the target. First attempt was 0/10. I was astonished to see first hand that most of the jawans were very good shooters. I also learnt what the smell of cordite is like having read this phrase many times in Commando comics and war novels. Its not a pleasant smell.

Have photos but would be error of judgment on my part to publish.

What would the IA do without kerosine?

Met with and broke bread with many Kargil heroes, both jawans and officers. Lots of other goodies that will have to wait for a bit until I recover.

Kersi, received your message and apologies for not responding earlier. Please get in touch.

Maz, will respond to your email.


Where all did you go?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rahulm » 20 Dec 2009 09:42

RayC, I also visited Dulhasti, Bhagliar, Jai ghati & Gupt ganga. Should give you a general idea.

For details maybe you can email me at rxaxhxuxlxmx2x0x@xgxmxaxixlx.cxoxom (remove all instances of 'x') or provide your email address.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 20 Dec 2009 11:35

New names.

Sure interested.

You have my e mail id.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rahulm » 21 Dec 2009 22:17

RayC, not received any email from you. Probably, gone astray. I don't have your email address from previously.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby koti » 22 Dec 2009 22:15

The Insas being supplied to Nepal are using all black furniture. This is because there are no Thar type situations in Nepal. But, there are no such situations anywhere else in India too.
But why are we still using the wooden furniture?(Or is it Synthetic grips with )
Can anyone compare characteristics of Wooden vs Synthetic grips like
1) Cost
2) Durability
3) Weight
4) Comfort in hand etc.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 22 Dec 2009 22:22

wood was never used in INSAS, it's all synthetic.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby sunny y » 22 Dec 2009 23:19

Hi Guys....It's almost december end. Does anybody know what's going on with MSMC trials. It was scheduled in December ??

Thanks

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 23 Dec 2009 11:51

koti wrote:But why are we still using the wooden furniture?(Or is it Synthetic grips with )
Can anyone compare characteristics of Wooden vs Synthetic grips like
1) Cost
2) Durability
3) Weight
4) Comfort in hand etc.

As posted by others above, INSAS doesn't use wooden furniture. In fact, most modern assault rifles don't use wood either. Big problem with wood is that it tends to warp in different temperatures/humidity levels and cracks easier. It is possible to make a wooden stock that is more resistant to humidity and temperature, but this involves making it with laminated layers of more expensive woods (e.g. walnut) + proper finishing and sealing. Manufacturing a stock like this takes more time and increases the cost without bestowing any advantages over synthetic stocks, except for looking much more classy.

So when it comes to cost, machining time, weight and durability, synthetic wins hands down.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 23 Dec 2009 12:06

rahulm wrote:RayC, not received any email from you. Probably, gone astray. I don't have your email address from previously.


rayc17m/yahoo.co/uk

The smell of cordite excites. I miss it.
But true, one has to get used to it!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Prem Kumar » 23 Dec 2009 22:50

The only time I fired a gun was in NCC in undergrad days. But the smell of cordite in the firing range - I still remember it. It gave you a nice kick.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gaur » 01 Jan 2010 11:05

From Broadsword.
Private companies to arm police with modern weapon
I think it would help a lot in the long run. With the quality control problems of OFB, after private companies gain enough expertise, perhaps they can also manufacture arms for IA. One can also hope that with manufacturing expertise, in the future, they could also develop new rifles.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 01 Jan 2010 17:35

Gaur wrote:From Broadsword.
Private companies to arm police with modern weapon
I think it would help a lot in the long run. With the quality control problems of OFB, after private companies gain enough expertise, perhaps they can also manufacture arms for IA. One can also hope that with manufacturing expertise, in the future, they could also develop new rifles.


Since MHA is allowing public comments on this draft, here is my email sent to the email address in the pdf:

A very happy new year to you. I wish you a very happy and prosperous 2010.

I am very grateful for the fact that you are allowing comments on this draft policy. And, I want to take this opportunity to bring out one part of arms and ammunition manufacturing that has been left out of this draft.

I think allowing the private companies to participate in arms manufacturing is an excellent and a long awaited move. But, I think what the draft is lacking is any mention of manufacture of quality body armor. Among other things quality body armor consists of at the minimum, level 3 bullet proof vest, helmets, googles and gloves. In today's world, quality body armor and arms go hand in hand. Without quality body armor sir, our defence forces would be helpless against even a single bullet of any calibre or shrapnel from any explosion.


I would like you to see this real video, of a U.S. soldier being hit by a rifle round in Iraq at the 2.05 mark of this video. The soldier, falls down due to the impact but soon gets up and
points out the snipers position to his fellow soldiers who follow them and later apprehend them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqV_rmiSCZc

Sir, this is the kind of protection that our defence forces will get when they are provided with quality body armor.
Also, this video is not an isolated case of quality body armor saving a soldier's life. There are plethora of reports out there in the western academic circles and media as to how body armor saves lives. I have not seen any armed western soldier, police officer or a security personnel without body armor. However, it is a common site in India to see our brave Indian soldiers, security personnel standing in public places, without any protective gear at all bravely doing their duty. Without body armor, every bullet that hits our soldiers and policemen, is either fatal or takes them out of action immediately.


When a soldier is wearing a bullet proof vest he feels relatively safe and it gives him the confidence to fire back at the enemy without worrying too much about every
flying bullet. Therefore sir, I am asking you to please consider pursuing the development of body armor along with fire arms and bringing this to the notice of our law makers.

Once again, a very happy and prosperous new year to you


I think only the sniper was caught the spotter was able to flee.


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