Small Arms Thread

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Mar 2010 13:15

"…expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State."

Wouldn't hollow-point ammo be less effective against "forces of another state" considering the fact that the soldiers would be wearing body armour? This would be less likely while dealing with terrorists. Hollow points would be perfect for COIN ops especially in urban areas where the hollow point ammo would ensure that the bullet does not go through the terrorist and hit a civilian behind him.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 08 Mar 2010 14:19

http://www.thehatchreport.com/video/hol ... ullet.html

Normal bullet vs Hollow bullet video

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 08 Mar 2010 22:03

nachiket wrote:Hollow points would be perfect for COIN ops especially in urban areas where the hollow point ammo would ensure that the bullet does not go through the terrorist and hit a civilian behind him.

With all due respect sir, I don't believe you've fired a firearm before because the above statement is a *very bad assumption* to make. Bullets do funny things especially when hitting targets that are essentially 70% water. There is no guarantee that a hollow point won't go through and hit the person behind.

Quoting Jeff Cooper's fourth law of gun safety:

4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Mar 2010 22:39

ArmenT wrote: With all due respect sir, I don't believe you've fired a firearm before because the above statement is a *very bad assumption* to make. Bullets do funny things especially when hitting targets that are essentially 70% water. There is no guarantee that a hollow point won't go through and hit the person behind.

Quoting Jeff Cooper's fourth law of gun safety:
4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified

And you would be very right. Only gun I've ever held in my hand was an SLR with an empty magazine.
Whatever I had heard about hollow point ammo seemed to suggest that the bullet mushrooms when it enters the target, hence reducing its penetrating power but increasing the damage. There is no guarantee that the bullet won't pass clean through of course but wouldn't the chances of that happening be much less than with an FMJ bullet.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 09 Mar 2010 11:29

nachiket wrote: Whatever I had heard about hollow point ammo seemed to suggest that the bullet mushrooms when it enters the target, hence reducing its penetrating power but increasing the damage. There is no guarantee that the bullet won't pass clean through of course but wouldn't the chances of that happening be much less than with an FMJ bullet.

Yes, you're right in that the mushrooming bullet decreases penetrating power. However, no sniper will ever risk shooting at an angle where there is an innocent close behind the target because there isn't a guarantee that the bullet will not exit out the other side and strike the innocent party as well. My earlier comment had to do with the fact that your previous post used the word "ensure" in it

.

The other thing to note is that ordinary hollow points perform best on lower velocity weapons (i.e.) from pistols and revolvers. In higher powered weapons such as rifles, you need a tougher round because of higher pressures and thus, a full metal jacket bullet, jacketed hollow point or a tapered jacket is used.
http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_m193orm855.html
http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_expanding.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2010 22:24

ArmenT, In the mid 1800s before the revolver became popular, there used to be a large caliber pistol for personal defence in India called the Howdah pistol. It fired a massive round for a hand gun and was used for travel in jungles etc.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 10 Mar 2010 08:04

ramana wrote:ArmenT, In the mid 1800s before the revolver became popular, there used to be a large caliber pistol for personal defence in India called the Howdah pistol. It fired a massive round for a hand gun and was used for travel in jungles etc.

Tiger hunting in India in the days of the British Raj was dangerous for both the tiger and the hunter. It was not unknown for the tiger to try to climb up the elephant to get at the hunters in the howdah, and at such close range, a rifle was not an effective weapon. For such 'last ditch' defense, a large-bore, double barrelled pistol was used, and these came to be known as "Howdah Pistols". The one shown here is a fine example made by Purdey in the first half of the 19th century. Like most howdah pistols, it is a large smoothbore, in this case, 0.662"(16 ga) with 7 1/2" barrels. Since they were meant for 'snatch & shoot' action, it has only a rudimentary bead front sight and no rear sight, but it is relatively light (2 pounds 6 ounces), and the balance is absolutely superb.

Howdah pistol

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 10 Mar 2010 10:00

^^^
That is a beautiful pistol. I would draw special attention to the barrel, which is manufactured by a technique called "Damascus Twist". It has nothing to do with the city of Damascus, but has to with the damascene pattern (i.e) the beautiful figurated pattern you see on it. This technique was used on superior quality weapons and was expensive to manufacture, as you can see when I detail the procedure below.

This should perhaps go into a longer paper later on, but I'll outline the process here. The effect is achieved by first taking thin flat ribbons of steel and iron and alternating them and welding them together to form one long thicker ribbon. Then this thicker ribbon is twisted in one direction to form a rod. Then another one of these ribbons is manufactured the same way, except the twist is done in the other direction to form a second rod.

Now two or three of these rods are taken together and placed so that adjacent rods are twisted in opposite directions (see figure below). Now these two or three rods are combined together to a single rod by rolling and re-welded again. The resulting rod is then heated and flattened out into a flat ribbon again.

Code: Select all

\\\\\\\\\\\\\ <-- Rod 1
///////////// <-- Rod 2

or

\\\\\\\\\\\\\ <-- Rod 1
///////////// <-- Rod 2
\\\\\\\\\\\\\ <-- Rod 3

Two of three of these now flat ribbons may also be further combined together again to form another flat ribbon.

Now this flat ribbon, which has multiple layers of steel and iron twisted together is heated again and wound around a cylindrical mandrel in a spiral form, to form the barrel. You can clearly see how it was spirally wound around the mandrel in the picture above. The figured patterns in between the spiral lines is caused by the operation of combining the opposing twisted rods. How the patterns look has to do with how the twisted rods were rolled together (i.e.) if the hammering and welding was uneven, the pattern at this stage will look uneven as well. The fine lighter lines are iron and the darker lines are steel. The finer the pattern, the more layers and rods were used in making the weapon. Some fine barrels could have as many as 8 rods combined together, each one consisting of 32 alternating layers of iron and steel.

The reason for using a mandrel and coiling the ribbon around it is because barrel boring machines in the 1800s weren't as advanced.

The barrel is now allowed to cool and cold hammered to remove any gaps and increases the density and hardness of the barrel. Then the barrel is removed from the mandrel and taken to a lathe for final boring and grinding operations.

As you can see, the barrel also has a dark brown color. This is achieved by a delicate operation known as "browning". First, they seal the barrel so that only the outside is browned. Then the barrel is degreased by washing with soap or potassium hydroxide solution. Then they place the barrel in an acid solution to promote rusting. When a thin uniform layer of rust is formed on the barrel, they place it in boiling water to wash off the acid and also stop the rusting process. Then they rub the barrel with steel wool for better finish (process is called "carding"). The process of using acid, washing with boiling water and carding may be repeated to darken the color. The # of times this is done depends on the color desired and humidity in the air. Finally, it is placed in a mild potassium hydroxide solution to neutralize any acid that may still be in the pores. At this point, the rusting process is completely stopped. This thin layer of rust then forms a protective and beautiful coating. The barrel is then ground and polished and oiled to form the final product.

As you can see, there's a hell of a lot of skilled people involved to form a barrel like the one you see above. And this is just the barrel manufacturing process! There's a lot more stuff involved, including proving the barrel (the proof marks of the proving house are usually hidden by the stock in fine weapons), the fine lockwork you see on the weapon, the east european walnut wooden stock (the deep brown stock with dark lines is characteristic of french or east european walnut), engraving on the locks etc. This is why making one of these beauties was so expensive.

I guess I should write a longer paper detailing some of these other procedures later.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 10 Mar 2010 21:51

ArmenT, Thanks for sharing that, it was a pleasure reading. Makes manufacturing look like art.

Reminded me of the making of Samurai swords.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 11 Mar 2010 11:16

This will be of general interest as to why the US Army is looking for weapons that are effective beyond 300m.

Increasing small arms lethality in Afghanistan: Taking back the infantry half-kilometer by Major Thomas P. Ehrhart, United States Army, 72 pages.
Operations in Afghanistan frequently require United States ground forces to engage and destroy the enemy at ranges beyond 300 meters. These operations occur in rugged terrain and in situations where traditional supporting fires are limited due to range or risk of collateral damage. With these limitations, the infantry in Afghanistan require a precise, lethal fire capability that exists only in a properly trained and equipped infantryman. While the infantryman is ideally suited for combat in Afghanistan, his current weapons, doctrine, and marksmanship training do not provide a precise, lethal fire capability to 500 meters and are therefore inappropriate.
Comments from returning non-commissioned officers and officers reveal that about fifty percent of engagements occur past 300 meters. The enemy tactics are to engage United States forces from high ground with medium and heavy weapons, often including mortars, knowing that we are restricted by our equipment limitations and the inability of our overburdened soldiers to maneuver at elevations exceeding 6000 feet. Current equipment, training, and doctrine are optimized for engagements under 300 meters and on level terrain
There are several ways to extend the lethality of the infantry. A more effective 5.56-mm bullet can be designed which provides enhanced terminal performance out to 500 meters. A better option to increase incapacitation is to adopt a larger caliber cartridge, which will function using components of the M16/M4. The 2006 study by the Joint Service Wound Ballistics – Integrated Product Team discovered that the ideal caliber seems to be between 6.5 and 7-mm. This was also the general conclusion of all military ballistics studies since the end of World War I.
The reorganization of the infantry squad in 1960 eliminated the M1D sniper rifle and resulted in the loss of the precision mid-range capability of the infantry squad. The modern solution to this problem is the squad designated marksman. The concept of the squad designated marksman is that a soldier receives the training necessary to engage targets beyond the 300-meter range limitation of current marksmanship programs, but below the 600 meter capability of actual snipers. As of June 2009, the equipment and training of the squad designated marksman has yet to be standardized. In field manual 3-22.9 there are only fourteen pages dedicated to training the squad designated marksman.
Any weapon system designed to perform in various environments will invariably make compromises in order to perform all requirements. The modular nature of the M4/M16 series of weapons lends itself to the arms room concept. Under the arms room concept, each soldier would have multiple weapons and optics combinations available. Commanders would have the flexibility to adjust the capabilities of the infantry squad for the anticipated environment while maintaining commonality of the manual of arms.
Finally, the current qualification course does not accurately depict the enemy on the battlefield. It is based on the 1960’s and 70’s concept of active defense strategy. Targets come up and depending on their range, remain up for a period of five to ten seconds. The modern battlefield is never this static. Soldiers fire twenty rounds from a prone or foxhole-supported position, then ten rounds from a prone-unsupported position and finally ten rounds from the kneeling position. Soldiers are conditioned to expect that their targets will not move, will only require one shot to incapacitate, and that a hit anywhere will result in that incapacitation.
The Army now has the opportunity to rectify this degradation of marksmanship capability and take back the infantry half kilometer. The ability to engage targets out to 500 meters requires significant revisions to doctrine, training, and equipment. These revisions require emphasis from the highest levels of military leadership.
Increasing Small Arms Lethality in Afghanistan: Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer

And the counterpoint:

In summary, there is simply no convincing body of evidence that
a platoon equipped with a combination of 5.56mm and 7.62mm
NATO weapons, is in any way disadvantaged compared to an
enemy with AKMs and PKMs. The phenomenon has certainly
not occurred in numerous conflicts anywhere else on the planet,
and even if it were true, new small-arms rounds such as 6.8mm
and 6.5mm would not make any significant difference
True but Irrelevant:Small Arms Performance in Afghanistan

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 11 Mar 2010 13:42

RayC sir, I remember some study done by the US Army that showed that average army soldiers could hit a man-sized target at 300 meters distance only 10% of the time. I'll try and dig up the actual reference later. So changing rifles is not going to help much unless they change their training methods as well.

On the other hand, people that come out of US Army Sniper School can hit targets at 600 meters with > 90% accuracy.

@a_kumar: Thank you very much for your kind comments

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 11 Mar 2010 13:51

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2ZmZVEbErIA&co ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2ZmZVEbErIA&co ... edded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

The interview with Brigadier General (retired) Patrick Choy (who is now working for ST Kinetics or STK) on the Indian carbine market

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 11 Mar 2010 13:56

ArmenT wrote:RayC sir, I remember some study done by the US Army that showed that average army soldiers could hit a man-sized target at 300 meters distance only 10% of the time. I'll try and dig up the actual reference later. So changing rifles is not going to help much unless they change their training methods as well.

On the other hand, people that come out of US Army Sniper School can hit targets at 600 meters with > 90% accuracy.

I wonder if training can help.

I was a Silver Spoon (Best Shot) in IMA firing .3o3 since the was the weapon those days.

I daresay I was equally adept with the 7.62 since I could never realise what is the centre of the rear circular sight that is to be aligned to the foresight, much that I tried.

It drove me to tears and I was totally demoralised and continued to be so.

Yet, for carbine, where we had to fire from the hip, I did very well!

Funny!

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 11 Mar 2010 16:54

^^
I am afraid that I am not able to grasp the point you are trying to convey.
Are you saying that most people would not be able to shoot accurately at ranges greater than 300 mts regardless of the quality of training they are imparted with?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 11 Mar 2010 17:29

Gaur wrote:^^
I am afraid that I am not able to grasp the point you are trying to convey.
Are you saying that most people would not be able to shoot accurately at ranges greater than 300 mts regardless of the quality of training they are imparted with?

Training helps.

However, some are good shooters by instinct and notwithstanding the situation achieve the highest results.

Some are slightly less in prowess and some are acceptable.

That is why there are three grades. Marksman, First Class and Standard Shot.

A Marksman in Rifle may not be a marksman for LMG. I reckon it depends on how comfortable one is with the weapon and it shooting procedures.

Some are excellent with the pistol and CQB weapons but may not be so for rifle and LMG.

Everyone cannot become a sniper!

It is like most can drive cars, but it does not mean that they can become Formula 1 champions.

Take the case of Cheney. He has been hunting Moose or whatever all his life. Yet, instead of a Moose, he shot his friend!

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 11 Mar 2010 20:18

^^
Thanks for the explanation.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 11 Mar 2010 21:13

^^^^
Good point sir. My former boss qualified as Expert with M1911 pistol while he was in the USN and has the ribbon and marksmanship medal to prove it. However, he'll be the first to admit that he doesn't shoot with the same skill with a rifle.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 11 Mar 2010 21:26

I am am sorry chaps if I have failed you with a mathematical answer.

I really don't know why we can't fire a weapon with equal consistency!

Fidel Guevara · Post by **Fidel Guevara** » 19 Mar 2010 11:02

RayC : That Howdah pistol is just about the most beautiful weapon I've seen in a long while, especially after reading the description about well-designed it was. The first time I saw a photo of the F-16; perhaps the only memory that comes close.

ArmenT : Fascinating technology; thanks for sharing! This process as you described sounds like a true craftsman's job vs the current processes, e.g. Leopard 2A6 MBT main gun technology

In this process, there is a slowly melting consumable electrode and a water-cooled mold for solidification, as in vacuum arc remelting, but the melting is conducted under normal atmosphere and is accomplished by a thick, superheated layer of slag on top of the shallow metal pool. This slag is resistance-heated by the high electrical current passing from the electrode to the mold, and it also desulfurizes the molten steel drops as they pass through on their way from the electrode to the liquid pool. Solidification patterns are similar to those in vacuum arc remelting.

I guess you have the opportunity to fire a lot of weapons in AmirKhan, and that's a great benefit for shooting fans.

Here in Canada it's a bit less accessible. I recently visited a gun club and fired off 5 rounds of a 12-gauge Remington pump-action shotgun, 20 rounds of M-4, 5 rounds of Magnum 44, and 30 rounds from a Glock 9mm. The SHQ fired off lots of Glock 9mm, and even tried the Magnum 44 once (only once ever in her life, she has promised). First time for both of us, and it is very exhilarating.

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Mar 2010 17:08

Gurus,
Is there any link where we have details of ALL firearms( with SF, police etc) with Indian forces ( with pics).

This is just to help ID the weapons noticed while on travel.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Mar 2010 18:38

well, there's this website called bharat-rakshak.com, people tell me they have an infantry weapons section in the land-forces part of the website.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 19 Mar 2010 18:51

Rahul M wrote:well, there's this website called bharat-rakshak.com, people tell me they have an infantry weapons section in the land-forces part of the website.

The problem with "that" site, sir, is that it doesn't include ALL weapons used by the IA and paramilitary. Examples- IMI Tavor, Skorpion vz. 61, Vidhwansak (in use by BSF, I think). Also, the pics of some of the weapons are not there, like revolvers used by the Police.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Mar 2010 19:03

true, 'they' don't.

there are few if any where everything is there, discounting the often unreliable wiki.
the NSG's website is another good place where a good collection is given.

Fidel Guevara · Post by **Fidel Guevara** » 19 Mar 2010 20:05

I was struck by the huge cost of the Vidhwansak, at US$20000, while the Barrett M82 is $6000-$9000, even with more expensive Amirkhan labour (and from what I gather, assembly of this type of precision weapon is very labour intensive). Any indication if this is due to any superior material of construction, or just ramping up cost before mass production?

At Rs 10 lakh per rifle, equipping one per infantry squad means easily costs over Rs 6 crores for a single battalion...!!

A 7.62x51mm as currently used by the IA, might make a more user-friendly sniper rifle, but a 50 calibre provides far greater flexibility, and the most cost-effective way to project firepower for an infantry squad. Disable vehicles, aircraft, fuel depots, penetrate civilian walls and most urban cover, etc...for all of which the 7.62 is out of its depth.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Mar 2010 20:18

FG, The Indian model is system of weapons. It comes in three calibers. A recent US TV program showed that they have three different weapons in each of the calibers.

Fidel Guevara · Post by **Fidel Guevara** » 19 Mar 2010 21:18

ramana wrote:FG, The Indian model is system of weapons. It comes in three calibers. A recent US TV program showed that they have three different weapons in each of the calibers.

Ramana, the 20mm is a good option, with frag shells. However, why on earth would you want to have both 12.7mm AND 14.5mm options? That strikes me as being needless duplication, kind of like having both a 5.45mm and a 5.56mm barrel for an AR.

If something with a bit more punch than the 12.7mm is required, a sub-calibre saboted round in the 20mm might do the trick.

And why an unusual calibre like 14.5mm in the first place, when the far more common 12.7mm is available in vast quantities in every theatre of operation? The neat thing about the Barrett is that if you run out of the specialist ammo, you can just pick up any HMG ammo and be almost as effective.

With the 14.5mm barrel, this thing is a monster - taller than the soldier operating it! I suspect when this comes into more general use, the jawans will choose not to carry the 14.5mm into field duty. Prediction : the next generation of this weapon will come in only two calibres.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Mar 2010 21:50

You fight with what you have. The 14.5 mm cartridge is available locally from OFB. Same with the 12.7mm. All in all it provides flexibility and options. The original model came with 20mm shell from Denel.
I think it is a good thing to have options.

Fidel Guevara · Post by **Fidel Guevara** » 19 Mar 2010 21:59

Ramana, agreed on need for options. If I was the soldier, I might not personally like to carry 3 types of barrels, but I would still prefer pigLeTs are hit with a 14.5mm vs a 12.7mm. Extra-dead vs just plain dead!

Future Weapons featured an interesting concept - the Beowulf from Alexander Arms - M4/M16 chassis, with a low-pressure 50 calibre barrel/bolt assembly. This would allow commonality of most parts with the standard rifle, along with real punch up to 200m. No sniper-level accuracy required, so the semi-auto mode allows demolition of walls and cars in seconds.

Beowulf ammo with regular 5.56mm. This is the largest round that the M4/M16 magazine can carry.

Fidel Guevara · Post by **Fidel Guevara** » 21 Mar 2010 05:30

Very impressive video on the Denel NTW anti-material-rifle, which is essentially the same as the Vidhwansak

Check out 2.08 (even the massive bolt assembly recoils internally by as much as 6 inches), 2.34 (20mm shell effects), 2.53 (cutting a RCC railway sleeper in half), 4.05 (12.7mm conversion kit available for low cost training - that sounds like the Vidhwansak), 4.22 (just a really cool and practical idea!).

Still, not accurate enough to use as a sniper rifle at any significant range, plus it is truly a monster ( 6 1/2 feet long with the 14.5mm barrel ).

The designer, alongwith the shorter 20mm barrel :

Fidel Guevara · Post by **Fidel Guevara** » 21 Mar 2010 05:37

^ I would like to see some Bollywood hero charge at the enemy, while carrying and firing this BEAST with one arm!

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 21 Mar 2010 06:57

Adding muscle: Army begins hunt for heavy machine guns

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 21 Mar 2010 07:13

There are only 2 serious contenders - the Russian Kord amd the US / Belgian Browning - or are there others?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Mar 2010 09:04

Gerard wrote:Adding muscle: Army begins hunt for heavy machine guns

Fine.

Who will carry them?

All personnel of an infantry battalion have a fixed task and there is no surplus or spare people.

We are adding a plethora of support weapons and depleting the actual bayonet strength that is required to assault, capture and occupy an objective.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 21 Mar 2010 09:28

^^
They would be mounted on vehicles. At least that is the general role of HMGs.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Mar 2010 09:32

Gaur wrote:^^
They would be mounted on vehicles. At least that is the general role of HMGs.

We have used HMG very effectively in Op Intrusion Dalunang in the Kargil Sector when I was commanding a battalion. We brought down a Pak bunker with this weapon. But then manpower was the issue!

Though this is a SA thread, it does not matter what is the mode.

What matters is the manpower.

Hope the Mods shift these aspects to the appropriate thread.

Thanks.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Mar 2010 09:36

khukri wrote:There are only 2 serious contenders - the Russian Kord amd the US / Belgian Browning - or are there others?

The CIS 50 from ST kinetics comes to mind. There is also the General Dynamics LW50MG which I think is a derivative of the XM312.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 21 Mar 2010 11:05

Fidel Guevara wrote:Ramana, agreed on need for options. If I was the soldier, I might not personally like to carry 3 types of barrels, but I would still prefer pigLeTs are hit with a 14.5mm vs a 12.7mm. Extra-dead vs just plain dead!

Per Geneva conventions, you aren't even supposed to fire these at enemy personnel. Anti-materiel rifles are to be used only on targets such as aircraft, soft-skinned vehicles, radar installations etc. Of course a good lawyer could argue that LeT isn't a signatory of the Geneva convention and is therefore not subject to any of its protections.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Mar 2010 11:08

armen, what's the exact clause ? could you post it ? I'm curious as to how this is disallowed when arty bombardment of infantry positions is allowed.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 21 Mar 2010 11:14

^^^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Petersb ... on_of_1868 <-- See the NOTES section
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk ... 0#Legality

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Mar 2010 17:19

thanks.

are all rounds of anti-material rifles explosive in nature ?