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Small Arms Thread

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Khalsa
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Khalsa » 21 Jun 2017 06:57

Bishwa wrote:Yes, Lt. Gen Y.K.Joshi is former CO or 13 JAK Rif in Kargil. Capt Vikram Batra as well as Naib Subedar Sanjay Kumar are from the same unit.

Thank you
I remember seeing the NDTV documentary and his face just jumped at me from that photo.
His calm smile while holding that rifle is still the same from the documentary.

God Bless him, God bless everyone that expedited his moving to the DG INF.
What better man to be in charge than him.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 21 Jun 2017 07:16

@kakkaji

At 4Kg empty, the rifle is slightly heavier than its firangi counterparts.

@ramanna

2400 rounds would imply 120 magazines, however, it does not seem that any rifle would be able to withstand 2400 rounds of continuous fire. It's more likely an average of one stoppage or less in an average of 2400 rounds (>99.95% reliability) under a certain set of conditions. Reportedly, OFB had achieved that with the 5.56 mm mk 1 c. IIRC Army had specified 99.7% reliability for JVPC/MSMC/Milaap.

@abhik

Yes, the rifle seems to be 4-5" shorter than the "stupid long rife". It seems that they have managed to cut down weight by going for milled receiver over stamped receiver construction.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 21 Jun 2017 07:29

Only Indians ask other Indians "Is your product better than foreign maal?" as reported in the news item - and that is step 1. Step 2 is to wait for a failure and then say "Hah - the Indian was lying - he claimed it was better but it is not"

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 21 Jun 2017 07:32

Thakur_B wrote: it does not seem that any rifle would be able to withstand 2400 rounds of continuous fire.

True. In case anyone does not believe this please watch these
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwSJiAwoMpY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzfm4pYhIyY

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 21 Jun 2017 07:37

Let us not forget that OFB rifles are now being looked at only because that mad "Churkendoose" demand made by the procurement dept of the army of "One rifle. all calibres, all applications" could not be met by any foreign vendor.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 21 Jun 2017 08:42

^^ Hakeem saab, I disagree. It is our right and, need I say, duty to expect the best from our institutions. Small arms are a low hanging fruit, a field where it s difficult to supersede the best out there but easy to match up. If we can match and possibly supersede the best in the world with ATAGS, then rifles are considerably low tech. There are prominent nations with a long history of developing firearms, like UK and France, which have given up the development of new designs and are importing their next generation weapons, whereas there are plenty of countries with very short history of designing firearms, like Poland, Singapore, Israel who come up with innovative designs all the time. The russians have consistently come up with a flurry of small arms designs, many of them very radical, like the An-94, AEK-971 and Ak-107, yet they have continued with simpler designs like Ak-74 family, based on costs vs benefits.

The army trialed the INSAS carbine in 2002, where it failed. OFB came up with modified INSAS carbine, 'Kalantak' around 2007, which too didn't make the cut. Where were the further incremental designs between 2007 and 2017 ? Excalibur came out in 2005, Mk-1C came in 2016. Not clearing user requirements is one thing, but to not try with newer alternatives is even worse.

Lets see some of the weapons that were required for decades, but only recently have we seen any movement.

9 mm pistol: Still manufactured from the John Inglis production line purchased in the 50s from Canada. No new design made since. Replacement required ? Yes.

9 mm SMG: No 9 mm SMG license production taken up after the sterling, nor any local design made uptil 2014 with Mp-5 clone 'Anamika'

7.62x39mm rifle:
A7 in the late 90s - Project abandoned.
TAR (Fn-FAL derived) from RFT (2012-13) - Project Abandoned as it didn't make the cut in OFB internal competition.
AKM derivative from Ordnance Factory Kanpur (2013-14): Project Abandoned as it didn't make the cut in OFB internal competition.
Ghatak from RFI (2013-14): Winner in OFB internal competition. Small orders being delivered.
TAR (AKM derivative): Not sure about orders received, if any.

PDW (5.56x30 mm)
Amogh: Only coast guard brought a few. Problem with 5.56x30mm ammunition production.
MSMC/JVPC/Milaap: Stuck in trials.

Carbine 5.56x45mm
INSAS Carbine: Failed in 2002.
Kalantak: Didn't make the cut. No new design since. Post mumbai attacks, several State Armed Police have purchased truckloads of M4 carbines.

Rifle 5.56x45 mm
INSAS: several million ordered. Nearly all major users hold a grudge and want a replacement. Mediocre

LMG 5.56x45mm
INSAS LMG: Close to 1 lac made. Glaring deficiencies in design.

MMG 5.56x45mm
No design attempted. Orders snapped up by negev.

LMG 7.62x51mm
ARDE is working on one, now.

MMG 7.62x51mm
Upgrade of Fn-MAG in 2016.

HMG
No design attempted.

UBGL 40 mm
ARDE UBGL in production. Picatinny rail mounted Fire control computer developed in conjunction with MCIWS.

Marksman Rifle:
No design attempted.

Sniper Rifle:
OFB designed one in 2016. Still in design phase.

Anti matrial rifle:
Vidhwansak based on Denel NTW-20. No design based on Army RFI attempted.

Multi Mode Grenade:
Status of Shivalik grenade unknown despite news about production back in 2011.

The only glimmer of hope with regards to small arms has come in the last 3-4 years. Otherwise we have lost decades.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 21 Jun 2017 09:00

shiv wrote:Only Indians ask other Indians "Is your product better than foreign maal?" as reported in the news item - and that is step 1. Step 2 is to wait for a failure and then say "Hah - the Indian was lying - he claimed it was better but it is not"


Hakeem Saheb:

There is a reason why I asked. Since a global tender has been issued, this rifle will have to be better by a mile for the army to select it. Being indigenous, it will get the last preference. :(

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 21 Jun 2017 09:03

Thakur_B wrote:^^ Hakeem saab, I disagree. It is our right and, need I say, duty to expect the best from our institutions. Small arms are a low hanging fruit, a field where it s difficult to supersede the best out there but easy to match up. If we can match and possibly supersede the best in the world with ATAGS, then rifles are considerably low tech.

<snip>

The only glimmer of hope with regards to small arms has come in the last 3-4 years. Otherwise we have lost decades.

There is nothing to disagree with your post. You are right and you don't need a certificate from me because your depth of knowledge is greater than mine on this issue.

But there are some general points I keep repeating. As a nation we have tended to prefer imported over Indian and have tended to accept shoddy work from OFB as "normal and to be expected" - and this attitude has come down from the top government decision makers to the user. Competence was neither expected nor demanded from the OFB and the first question that springs to the Indian mind when it comes to Indian products - especially OFB is "Which foreign product is better".

But here's the rub, at least to my mind..

While it is true that there are a lot of foreign products that are good I am yet to see or read about any foreign military that claims that it is 100% happy with their weapon. An even for the most advanced armed forces it seems that the Kalashnikov is the epitome of reliability and ruggedness. And even that weapon is not suitable for all purposes. Adding to this issue is the that armed forces the world over as well as the Indian army have gone through this cycle of adopting 5.56 for wounding power and then having a "Duh!" moment when they want bigger calibers again for stopping power.

In the meantime, as far as my knowledge goes there has been no revolution in firearm technology except in sights/targeting/night vision and changes in materials used for the stock - it has just been a churn of one caliber to another. So despite great "advancements" in firearms - suddenly we find in the 21st century that armed forces are struggling against terrorists using 1940s design Kalashnikovs.

Given pressure and reforms in the OFB and sustained collaboration with army plus good funding I am sure the OFB can come up with designs that are as good as any other there
Last edited by shiv on 21 Jun 2017 09:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 21 Jun 2017 09:13

Kakkaji wrote:
shiv wrote:Only Indians ask other Indians "Is your product better than foreign maal?" as reported in the news item - and that is step 1. Step 2 is to wait for a failure and then say "Hah - the Indian was lying - he claimed it was better but it is not"


Hakeem Saheb:

There is a reason why I asked. Since a global tender has been issued, this rifle will have to be better by a mile for the army to select it. Being indigenous, it will get the last preference. :(

I saw your post after I read the article and made my post - but it was too late to change anything. The fact remains that we always compare with foreign and select the latter because firearms are relatively cheap and it is always possible to find something that is "better" either in brochure, price or performance while testing. But what we should be doing is to ask the OFB to improve its product to meet our requirements rather than making a comparison every time and rejecting the OFB product because it is shoddy and bad and providing employment to some foreign workers and removing all incentive to clean up the OFB mess.

OFB are the "Hindus" of Indian arms industry. Hindu rate of growth and Hindu untouchability. It is OK to curse and rant. Everyone agrees, no one objects. All goodness will be found only outside Hindus/OFB

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Yagnasri » 21 Jun 2017 09:14

For that, we need better management of OFB by MoD. It is not going to happen anytime soon.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Yagnasri » 21 Jun 2017 09:15

For that, we need better management of OFB by MoD. It is not going to happen anytime soon.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 21 Jun 2017 09:18

Yagnasri wrote:For that, we need better management of OFB by MoD.

Yes but this fact needs to be spread and dispersed so that it is widely known in the public domain via social media

It is not going to happen anytime soon.

This is a prediction. For predictions I stick to astrologers

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Yagnasri » 21 Jun 2017 09:22

I have great confidence in our babus of MoD sir. We do not need astrologers for that.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 21 Jun 2017 09:23

Yagnasri wrote:I have great confidence in our babus of MoD sir. We do not need astrologers for that.

I prefer astrologers. That way I can hope that a younger generation of people will have an attitude of "can-do" and make things work in India

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 21 Jun 2017 09:24

Kakkaji. I asked how it compares to Ak47 as that what terrorists are using. Need something to compare.

Besides his comment is ment for me.

I get a lot from him. Don't mind.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 21 Jun 2017 09:47

:D No ramana not really. When I keep shooting blindly from the hip anyone who has ever posted anything will feel targeted. Not targeting any specific person. Just a rant hoping that the rot of OFB can be remedied.

I just wonder - how much is spent of R&D at OFB. They are profit making aren't they? At least they sell a lot of uniforms - a million plus sales of uniforms would be enough to make any garment maker jealous. And then they have bombs, mortar and artillery shells, detonators, flares, parachutes, speciality suits. Everything that could be done by a private MSME. OFB need not do half the stuff they claim credit for.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Prasad » 21 Jun 2017 11:02

They wont hereon. All those including HSLD have been earmarked as non-essential and will be taken away from OFBs.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Yagnasri » 21 Jun 2017 11:20

From what I understand they products are quite costly and the workforce is unionised heavily.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 21 Jun 2017 12:34

In firearms, reliability is most often measured by Mean Rounds Between Stoppages (MRBS). MRBS is the standard benchmark for most military related weapons testing; it is quite plainly, the number of stoppages a weapon has during a pre-determined number of rounds fired. These are usually tested under ideal conditions for a given sample size. Such testing can continue even with random production lots pulled from the line.

Stoppages are malfunctions which require no more than a minute to clear and there is no component replacement.

An MRBS of 2400 is in the broad ballpark in terms of a full calibre rifle. If OFB can achieve that, they will low bid any foreign competitor by a country mile.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby JayS » 21 Jun 2017 13:34

shiv wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:^^ Hakeem saab, I disagree. It is our right and, need I say, duty to expect the best from our institutions. Small arms are a low hanging fruit, a field where it s difficult to supersede the best out there but easy to match up. If we can match and possibly supersede the best in the world with ATAGS, then rifles are considerably low tech.

<snip>

The only glimmer of hope with regards to small arms has come in the last 3-4 years. Otherwise we have lost decades.

There is nothing to disagree with your post. You are right and you don't need a certificate from me because your depth of knowledge is greater than mine on this issue.

But there are some general points I keep repeating. As a nation we have tended to prefer imported over Indian and have tended to accept shoddy work from OFB as "normal and to be expected" - and this attitude has come down from the top government decision makers to the user. Competence was neither expected nor demanded from the OFB and the first question that springs to the Indian mind when it comes to Indian products - especially OFB is "Which foreign product is better".

But here's the rub, at least to my mind..

While it is true that there are a lot of foreign products that are good I am yet to see or read about any foreign military that claims that it is 100% happy with their weapon. An even for the most advanced armed forces it seems that the Kalashnikov is the epitome of reliability and ruggedness. And even that weapon is not suitable for all purposes. Adding to this issue is the that armed forces the world over as well as the Indian army have gone through this cycle of adopting 5.56 for wounding power and then having a "Duh!" moment when they want bigger calibers again for stopping power.

In the meantime, as far as my knowledge goes there has been no revolution in firearm technology except in sights/targeting/night vision and changes in materials used for the stock - it has just been a churn of one caliber to another. So despite great "advancements" in firearms - suddenly we find in the 21st century that armed forces are struggling against terrorists using 1940s design Kalashnikovs.

Given pressure and reforms in the OFB and sustained collaboration with army plus good funding I am sure the OFB can come up with designs that are as good as any other there


+1

There is no reason why OFB or any organisation for that matter can match the best in its field, given it removes the inefficiencies. The problem is we simply neglect anything Desi considering it will be inferior to foren maal only. This neglect and contempt across the board let the inefficiencies in the system to thrive because no one wants to clean it or believes that cleaning will even help. If we start accepting the desi maal de facto, in Defense sector say, everyone (user, government, taxpayer etc) will have an incentive to put pressure on the entity producing it to improve on the product incrementally. Also the lack of quality and efficiency can be taken as opportunities to remove inefficiencies. But the first and foremost, what is needed is a resolve that we will only take desi maal and we will make it the best in the world.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 21 Jun 2017 21:24

I don't know why we complain about rot at OFB?
This rifle was brought to trials in record time and its working quite well. AN di priced very competitively at Rs. 50K/rifle with accessories vs. Rs. 100K without accessories for imported versions.

They already achieved the '2400' MRBS for the smaller 5.56 mm caliber rifle. And the RFI team is confident they can achieve this for this model.

And the accuracy beats the GQSRs.

I only wish they had given out the current MRBS for this model.

Looks like the RFI team is very serious about winning this order.

No rot here.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sid » 21 Jun 2017 21:47

I would have been better if a Product owner/manager was assigned from IA to OFB, to manage and oversee the completion of project. An this product owner should report to steering committee in MOD and lawmakers so that everyone is aware of its progress. As they are the SMEs, they should drive it end-to-end. It's that simple onleee.

Problem is we think of us as a customer, not a product owner. Unless that happens, these trials and mistrials will keep on happening.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 21 Jun 2017 21:50

ramana - in small arms/guns discussion circles OFB is held in great contempt - particularly by Indians. As usual - echoed gleefully by Pakis

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 21 Jun 2017 22:05

That's OK, its in the past. We need to look at it case by case basis.
Like the proverbial curate's egg its good in parts.

When given a chance they have risen to the occasion.
Case in point the Dhanush 155mm gun.

The bulk of the fighting weapons are from OFB.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Prasad » 21 Jun 2017 22:13

And predictably it has been trashed already. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 257363.cms?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 21 Jun 2017 22:35

Looks like an infowar is going on.

Same TOI on June 20 gave glowing report of the very same trials.

To be fair this is a PTI report.

One would think we are reading about two different products.


Prasad,
Please post the text from PTI site for completeness.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 21 Jun 2017 23:12

Re number of magazines for 2400 rounds surely it's 80 right ? Come one - no way we are going for a 20 round mag again. Also in a 20 round mag only 18 rounds are usually put so that the spring is not under too much pressure so on 30 round mag it will be 28 rounds.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 21 Jun 2017 23:26

It's 20 round magazine in the new 7.62 rifle. In fact it is the good old SLR magazine.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 21 Jun 2017 23:35

Are yaar ! I loved the SLR and didn't even mind its jhatkas. INSAS was a dream but still with 20 rounds .. a dream that didn't get fully fulfilled. And now we are dreaming again but with 20 rounds again - sapne mein to 30 rounds dream karne do.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 22 Jun 2017 01:41

Thakur_B wrote:It's 20 round magazine in the new 7.62 rifle. In fact it is the good old SLR magazine.


If its the old SLR magazine, then why those comments about need a new magazine in the PTI report which is also rewritten by Vishnu on NDTV

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 22 Jun 2017 02:09

Prasad wrote:And predictably it has been trashed already. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 257363.cms?


This is on expected lines: once the global tenders have been asked for, there is no way the army will consider the indigenous product now.

If the global tender fails for any reason, including cost, then the army might be forced to reconsider its opinion of the OFB rifle.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 22 Jun 2017 06:05

Prasad wrote:And predictably it has been trashed already. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 257363.cms?

If you choose to read between the lines of this report and compare with the one posted earlier in is clear that the testing of the rifle at Mhow mentioned in the earlier report was conducted on the night of the 20th of June 2017 and the rifle was trashed on the 21st of June.

Unlike foreign media, Indian media are completely reliable and one report is all we need to see to get the whole truth,

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 22 Jun 2017 08:11

ramana wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:It's 20 round magazine in the new 7.62 rifle. In fact it is the good old SLR magazine.


If its the old SLR magazine, then why those comments about need a new magazine in the PTI report which is also rewritten by Vishnu on NDTV


"Complete redesign of the magazine to make reloading easier", that comment in Vishnu's report doesn't make much sense. A bad magazine can cause feed issues or reliability issues, not sure how it affects the reloading. Maybe they want a higher capacity magazine ?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 254970.cms

Meanwhile, the army has listed a few shortcomings:
- Reduce the stoppages: Expected as these were just demonstration prototypes, barely 15 made, not enough to go for a comprehensive evaluation of design. This was more of a proof of concept demonstration.
- Reduce flash and sound signature: Short barrel, 7.62 NATO, the gun needs a bloody good muzzle break. What were the designers thinking.
- Interchangeable barrels ? Wtf. Another multicalibre requirement ? Or an LMG requirement?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 22 Jun 2017 11:21

Barrel bulge?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 22 Jun 2017 11:40

Kakkaji wrote:
Prasad wrote:And predictably it has been trashed already. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 257363.cms?


This is on expected lines: once the global tenders have been asked for, there is no way the army will consider the indigenous product now.

If the global tender fails for any reason, including cost, then the army might be forced to reconsider its opinion of the OFB rifle.


To be fair, this is fairly alarming and the IA is well within its rights to ask for a better rifle. This level of stoppage will cost them their soldiers lives.

Official sources said there were "excessive number of faults" in the guns and "complete redesigning of the magazine" was needed to consider the guns to be used by the Army.

"Excessive flash and sound signature" were observed in the rifles during the trials, they said adding reliability aspect of the weapons needs comprehensive analysis.

The rifles had excessive number of faults and stoppages to the extent of more than twenty times the maximum permissible standards ..


Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst


Quite frankly OFB production quality, training of workforce all need substantial movement before they can start making the kind of stuff BRF expects of them.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby jayasimha » 22 Jun 2017 12:36

^^^
I feel all this is just a drama or foundation laying ceremony
for
Modi visit to Israel.

Israel has lot of companies who would want to offer "joint development" "joint production"
under the great

"Make in India"

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 22 Jun 2017 12:48

Lets not look for CTs ... OFB has long had a history of churning out half-baked prototypes which fail stringent IA trials. DRDO, BEL etc learned their lesson and now offer near ready prototypes for user trials. OFB is still very far from that level.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kashi » 22 Jun 2017 13:05

OFB did do a good job with Dhanush didn't they?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby jayasimha » 22 Jun 2017 15:41

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=165674
WHY ARE THEY DOING NO???????????????
what inefficiency is there when paying foreign countries like United States, France, Israel, Russia, etc.
why they dont do it for Indian companies ???


Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
15-June-2017 20:34 IST
Workshop on “Defence Procurements (Ex-Import): Important issues concerning contractual payments”

The Controller General of Defence Accounts (CGDA) organised a workshop, here today, to discuss various important issues for bringing high degree of efficiency into the process leading to payments of imported stores, for the Defence Services like fighter aircraft, advance weapon systems and platforms, etc. from foreign countries like United States, France, Israel, Russia, etc.

Speaking at the function, CGDA Ms Veena Prasad, highlighted the necessity of developing better understanding amongst all the agencies on complexities of foreign contracts and payments for evolving a seamless system for ensuring prompt payments in terms of contractual provisions and thus ensuring timely delivery of the imported stores by the foreign vendors to our Defence Forces.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby deejay » 22 Jun 2017 15:42

Karan M wrote:Lets not look for CTs ... OFB has long had a history of churning out half-baked prototypes which fail stringent IA trials. DRDO, BEL etc learned their lesson and now offer near ready prototypes for user trials. OFB is still very far from that level.


The time they took to get it to trials - I mean, they made 15 and put it to trial is for user feedback at an early stage. Looks more like a joint effort in getting the rifle right. The rest is just sensational journalism - no?


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