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Small Arms Thread

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 25 Sep 2017 10:21

^^ Correct me if I am wrong, but Fn-Mag is designated mmg in Indian service.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 26 Sep 2017 11:37

Thakur_B wrote:^^ Correct me if I am wrong, but Fn-Mag is designated mmg in Indian service.

yup...and a mighty din it made during many "bada khanas".....

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 28 Sep 2017 07:34

Listen to the conversation...

An American soldier firing an Indian-made INSAS assault rifle in the 2017 Yudh Abhyas exercise
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZiUIZPB3pf/

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 28 Sep 2017 09:24

Rakesh wrote:Listen to the conversation...

An American soldier firing an Indian-made INSAS assault rifle in the 2017 Yudh Abhyas exercise
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZiUIZPB3pf/


Its smooth.
Good.
I like it.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 28 Sep 2017 09:26

They mentioned something about range and daylight too ??

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 28 Sep 2017 09:32

And come to think, this is the weapon system that has been most reviled and abused for last 2 decades.

Shows the power of import lobby to influence narrative

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 28 Sep 2017 10:21

That video needs to be trending everywhere just to embarrass the import lobby.... I hope the Army does not regret the switch to 7.62 at a later stage.... A battle rifle needs to be easy to shoot and live with.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 28 Sep 2017 15:53

why should they be embarrassed? Their job is to get domestic substitute. Altruism is not work the world works.
also why should be be so pleased that some gora GI talks up the INSAS. Cos it fires well does not mean that it is effective in its complete life cycle although i allude more to our craven need for approval from gora sahib!
Its our weapon and should be proud and support it and refine - every one else be damned......
also why should the army regret the switch to 7.62 - that is if it has come to a considered decision rather than aping what every one else is doing. the switch to 5.56 was shortsighted IMO and betrayed some lack of future thinking. After all we already had significant experience of CI ops by time we starter thinking 5.56 even before IPKF..

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 28 Sep 2017 16:02

No one spoke here about needing "Gora" approval... I was talking in terms of import lobby and their chelas in the media constantly saying negative things about Indian systems in comparison to western ones. When soldiers from their "baap" ka army praise our rifle it is certainly mud on their faces. The 7.62 has certain glaring disadvantages in all out war as opposed to its advantages in CI ops. The new 5.56 development(1c?) by all accounts (including statement in parliament) works well and the sudden change of heart and caliber on the face of it is difficult to understand.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby sum » 28 Sep 2017 16:16

Are we really expecting any soldier on a joint exercise dissing the weapon system of compatriot nation during the PR phase video recording and giving a real thoughts out?

The true evaluation wil be known if we get access to their debriefing videos (like in cope India case)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 28 Sep 2017 16:48

sum wrote:Are we really expecting any soldier on a joint exercise dissing the weapon system of compatriot nation during the PR phase video recording and giving a real thoughts out?

The true evaluation wil be known if we get access to their debriefing videos (like in cope India case)


Sum Ji, even that might be true only if it was the primary reason of the exercise. IMVHO the more appropriate and true evaluation (covering accuracy, leathality, reliability, maintenance, logistics etc) is best received from the regular users viz our own forces and based over the past many years of usage. And a comparative evalutaion might be possible by our special forces who have access to and use comparative foreign equipment

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 28 Sep 2017 16:56

Bharadwaj wrote:No one spoke here about needing "Gora" approval... I was talking in terms of import lobby and their chelas in the media constantly saying negative things about Indian systems in comparison to western ones. When soldiers from their "baap" ka army praise our rifle it is certainly mud on their faces. The 7.62 has certain glaring disadvantages in all out war as opposed to its advantages in CI ops. The new 5.56 development(1c?) by all accounts (including statement in parliament) works well and the sudden change of heart and caliber on the face of it is difficult to understand.

What glaring deficiencies?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby sum » 28 Sep 2017 17:30

Manish_P wrote:
sum wrote:Are we really expecting any soldier on a joint exercise dissing the weapon system of compatriot nation during the PR phase video recording and giving a real thoughts out?

The true evaluation wil be known if we get access to their debriefing videos (like in cope India case)


Sum Ji, even that might be true only if it was the primary reason of the exercise. IMVHO the more appropriate and true evaluation (covering accuracy, leathality, reliability, maintenance, logistics etc) is best received from the regular users viz our own forces and based over the past many years of usage. And a comparative evalutaion might be possible by our special forces who have access to and use comparative foreign equipment

Agree sir

Thats why i dont see why we should be so excited that some Amirkhan soldier fired one round and called it "good"

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 28 Sep 2017 17:32

^^^^^^
Number of rounds carried, weight of the rifle and more recoil for the average infantryman.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 28 Sep 2017 18:54

Bharadwaj wrote:^^^^^^
Number of rounds carried, weight of the rifle and more recoil for the average infantryman.

That was not a deficiency as such. Tech and doctrine and availability dictated that caliber and weight. Today's 7.62 is much lighter than our SLR.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 28 Sep 2017 19:00

An infantry man climbing up a hill is still going to have nearly twice the number of 5.56 rounds for the the same weight.... Recoil is still substantially less with a 5.56 despite today's technology.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 28 Sep 2017 21:09

Bharadwaj wrote:An infantry man climbing up a hill is still going to have nearly twice the number of 5.56 rounds for the the same weight.... Recoil is still substantially less with a 5.56 despite today's technology.


However battle experience shows 5.56mm is not doing the job. It wounds rather than kill.


The original switch/the move was wrong.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 28 Sep 2017 21:25

ramana wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:An infantry man climbing up a hill is still going to have nearly twice the number of 5.56 rounds for the the same weight.... Recoil is still substantially less with a 5.56 despite today's technology.


However battle experience shows 5.56mm is not doing the job. It wounds rather than kill.


The original switch/the move was wrong.


This is certainly true in the Counter ops that our Armed forces are currently engaged in(a lot of ak types already used though)... But even here the terrorist pigs may end up wearing better gear to counter a caliber change. The original multi caliber tender actually makes sense when you think about it. Unfortunately none of the imported maal lived up to expectations and the Army appears to have lost patience with mciws or advanced rifle or whatever it was called.
Last edited by Bharadwaj on 28 Sep 2017 23:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Sep 2017 23:10

But why did Army switch to 5.56. Wasn't it because the SLR long barrel and strong recoil were an issue in IPKF operations. Can that be sorted?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karthik S » 28 Sep 2017 23:28

ramana wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:An infantry man climbing up a hill is still going to have nearly twice the number of 5.56 rounds for the the same weight.... Recoil is still substantially less with a 5.56 despite today's technology.


However battle experience shows 5.56mm is not doing the job. It wounds rather than kill.


The original switch/the move was wrong.


Just to illustrate, watch from 4:00 mark, it shows the difference between 5.56 and 7.62. (M16 vs AK 47)


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby srin » 29 Sep 2017 00:33

I'm confused. What 7.62 are we talking about ? The 7.62x39 (the intermediate round used in AK47) or the 7.62x51 (the SLR full rifle round - used before we switched to 5.56) ?
I thought we wanted to go to 7.62x51 ?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 29 Sep 2017 00:49

sum wrote:Thats why i dont see why we should be so excited that some Amirkhan soldier fired one round and called it "good"

I do not think anyone is saying that and neither do we need their approval on what is good and what is bad.

darshhan saar summed it up best ---> "And come to think, this is the weapon system that has been most reviled and abused for last 2 decades."

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 29 Sep 2017 01:08

Folks:

I am dying to see pictures of our troops in Kashmir operations wearing the new bulletproof helmets.

Earlier reports said that the first lot will be received in August and will be distributed first to the frontline units, but I have not seen any pictures yet. What happened? Our boys have been fighting for long with headgear that does not provide adequate protection. :(

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 29 Sep 2017 14:20

Kakkaji wrote:Folks:

I am dying to see pictures of our troops in Kashmir operations wearing the new bulletproof helmets.

Earlier reports said that the first lot will be received in August and will be distributed first to the frontline units, but I have not seen any pictures yet. What happened? Our boys have been fighting for long with headgear that does not provide adequate protection. :(


New helmets have been seen on Para and some Ghatak units. some pictures around. That being said. If they received new kit in Aug it will be somewhile before it gets operational. Just because kit is issued it does not get deployed straight into combat.

The soldiers down to the platoon level have to get used to moving and shooting with the new kit. Once that is done Commanders will deem kit operational and send soldiers out with it.

Point being (even for something like helmets) - if a soldier is not accustomed to it, has not trained with it - it could lead to less than optimal performances which could get him killed. Soldier's drill in their kit so that it becomes like second skin to them.

Take the example of ballistic shields for example. BS have been with forces (NSG/CRPF/RR/SF) for sometime now. yet to see active deployment. Only Now (after nearly a year and half) do you see NSG doing live training with it at malls etc

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 29 Sep 2017 23:51

Thanks rkhanna

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 30 Sep 2017 06:16

Kakkaji, those helmets would first show up on parade grounds and for photo op exercises, just like the knee pads and elbow pads our jawans wear in yudh abhyas.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 02 Oct 2017 06:48


Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 02 Oct 2017 08:42



A cool video that shows how suppressors work.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakarat » 02 Oct 2017 16:23

Detailed review of JVPC- Joint Venture Protective Carbine by Sandeep Unnithan


The video includes single hand firing of JVPC by Sandeep Unnithan

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 03 Oct 2017 10:41

^^ Looks like a bueat. Again with a Silencer with look way TFTA :)

That being said i wish OFB would have given Sandeep a gun that had been well oiled. The Magazine and Charging Handle looked tougher to slide than needed to be.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bart S » 03 Oct 2017 10:50

rkhanna wrote:^^ Looks like a bueat. Again with a Silencer with look way TFTA :)

That being said i wish OFB would have given Sandeep a gun that had been well oiled. The Magazine and Charging Handle looked tougher to slide than needed to be.


The one that he shot with was an older model. The newer model with the special coating that he showed before the firing demo doesn't require any oil!!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby niran » 03 Oct 2017 10:51

ramana wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:An infantry man climbing up a hill is still going to have nearly twice the number of 5.56 rounds for the the same weight.... Recoil is still substantially less with a 5.56 despite today's technology.


However battle experience shows 5.56mm is not doing the job. It wounds rather than kill.


The original switch/the move was wrong.

yes sir, the original logic was 5.56 will wound, and wounded soldiers will engage more soldiers to tend him = less foe firing :rotfl: :rotfl: surely an imagination by a desk bound babu.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 03 Oct 2017 10:57

Bart S wrote:
rkhanna wrote:^^ Looks like a bueat. Again with a Silencer with look way TFTA :)

That being said i wish OFB would have given Sandeep a gun that had been well oiled. The Magazine and Charging Handle looked tougher to slide than needed to be.


The one that he shot with was an older model. The newer model with the special coating that he showed before the firing demo doesn't require any oil!!


My bad. Watched the video on mute. However i was referring to the new gun onlee. the Magazine and Charging handle didnt seem as smooth as i had hoped.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bart S » 03 Oct 2017 12:13

niran wrote:
ramana wrote:
However battle experience shows 5.56mm is not doing the job. It wounds rather than kill.


The original switch/the move was wrong.

yes sir, the original logic was 5.56 will wound, and wounded soldiers will engage more soldiers to tend him = less foe firing :rotfl: :rotfl: surely an imagination by a desk bound babu.



IIRC this came out of studies by the US military and their experience with actual conflicts. And it still holds true for regular warfare where you are generally fighting a war of attrition against a trained enemy. Where it comes up short is in counter insurgency especially against drug fueled suicide attackers of the Talibunny variety.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 03 Oct 2017 14:14

Where it also came short was against advances and improvements in body armor/protection

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Oct 2017 14:31

It also depends on the the operation theater in commercial warfare, north of Zojila where there is very little vegetation or in the Rajastan desert where engagement ranges will be greater the 7.62 *51 will have an advantage, where the vegetation is higher in Punjab and much of Kashmir LOC bordering Jammu, Poonch and the Valley where due to heavy vegetation infantry engagement is probably 100-200 meters the 5.56 should have less recoil, more ammo and adequate for killing.

Against Drug induced talibani variety with engagement less than 50-100 ms the AK series 7.62 *39 is the best with lesser recoil than the 7.62*51 Nato but more stopping power than the 5.56 is best suited, it is like we need our infantry to have 3 different rifles for COIN, thick vegetation borders and sparsly vegetated areas plus various MMG variations and sub machine guns for drivers, JCO's, artillery crews etc.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby JayS » 03 Oct 2017 14:35

Kakarat wrote:Detailed review of JVPC- Joint Venture Protective Carbine by Sandeep Unnithan


The video includes single hand firing of JVPC by Sandeep Unnithan


Very nice video. The gun looks TFTA and rock solid to my fata Abdul eyes. I feel suddenly a lot has started happening on the small arms front.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karthik S » 03 Oct 2017 14:48

Gurus, most armies don't use drum magazines, but wouldn't that be better as number of reloads will be lower.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rajkumar » 03 Oct 2017 15:17

Karthik S wrote:Gurus, most armies don't use drum magazines, but wouldn't that be better as number of reloads will be lower.


Its to do with logistic tail required to support the infantryman and also the load which a modern soldier is expected to carry. I have experience of both 7.62mm * 51 and 5.56mm and I prefered the 5.56mm any day.

The issue is that modern armies are pulling too many CT duties and 5.56mm is simply not suitable for CT duty....as an infantryman in a normal war I wanted the 5.56mm since it forced the enemy soldiers to rescue a wounded comrade because its not nice to have a friend screaming there head off if they have been wounded on the battlefield trust me nothing is more disconcerting to an infantryman than that.

In CT duty I want a round which totally incapacitates a terrorist when it hits them or for example if a round goes into the engine block of a vehicle I knew that the 7.62mm * 51 would crack that engine block in two and stop that vehicle dead.

Its a matter of balance

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 03 Oct 2017 15:22

Drum or Helical mags (especially the older designs) were generally heavier (causing fatigue in the arms of the shooter), complex (more moving parts), prone to jams/malfunction, expensive and a bit difficult to carry on one's person. Their shape/bulk also lead to more chances of bumping when moving in confined spaces, diving to prone position etc and subsequent risk of malfunction. Another point was one could carry say 2 drum mags. If you experienced one mag failure then you had only one more mag. So a 50/50 chance. Whereas the same soldier typically carried between 5 to 7 regular mags. Failure in 1 or 2 would still give him enough functioning mags to remain in the fight.

Basically the disadvantages outnumbered the advantage (less reloading in a firefight).

Helical mags are good in games though :)


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