Small Arms Thread

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 Jun 2017 16:34

Did they give it any name? I could not find any name for it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Jun 2017 16:54

Deejay welcome back!

IMHO, giving 15 units of rifles with such glaring reliability issues to IA was just not done..they should gave anticipated this in inhouse trials itself.

Kashi, yet Dhanush is still in trial and we are yet to see reliable ammo, guns from OFB. Too early to say OFB has turned a corner.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jun 2017 22:33

So the new rifle was firing the 7.62mmx51 round, which is normally fired from the SLR, in an INSAS type configuration. Due to its energy it will be accurate.
But due to its short barrel it will have excess muzzle flash and recoil due to its 4kg weight.

Nice design conundrum.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jun 2017 22:45

Thakur_B, Are you referring to this 9mm pistol?

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/7.htm

Take a look at these US gun enthusiasts remarks on the 9MM 1A made by OFB.

They are quite favorable once the initial glitches are sorted out.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jun 2017 01:59

For comparison can we list the modern 7.62mm x 51 rifles and list their weight and typical features?

I don't even know what available.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jun 2017 06:59

The news report about the rejected rifle says that the noise is loud and there is too much of a muzzle flash. This is a function of the amount of propellant in the bullet. If you have a shorter barrel and use a cartridge that is used in a longer barrel - the extra propellant produces a big muzzle flash.

But what puzzles me is that I read on Teetar that this "rejected" weapon is a re-barrelled INSAS - but the weapon in this image does not look like a rebarelled INSAS to me

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 Jun 2017 08:23

ramana wrote:Thakur_B, Are you referring to this 9mm pistol?

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/7.htm

Take a look at these US gun enthusiasts remarks on the 9MM 1A made by OFB.

They are quite favorable once the initial glitches are sorted out.

It is the pedigree of the design Ramana. Browning Hi-power was and is one of the most iconic handgun ever made, staying relevant even after decades. Nearly every modern 9 mm gun can trace its lineage to John Browning and Luger designs. No wonder John browning is considered a messiah in the world of small arms. The question is, where are our modern wonder nines like Cz-75 and Glocks?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 Jun 2017 08:24

Video of the new gun being test fired.
https://twitter.com/ChethanKumarTOI/sta ... 9163206656

Considering that the rifle is being shot from the hip, the recoil doesn't seem out of the world to me.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 Jun 2017 08:33

https://twitter.com/ChethanKumarTOI/sta ... 6566334465

The army wants multi caliber capability in the gun.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 23 Jun 2017 09:06

Assault Rifle: Army lists improvements needed before Mhow test - TOI

The Indian Army on Wednesday has said that the indigenously developed 7.62mm X 51mm assault rifle developed by the Rifle Factory Ishapore (RFI) still requires comprehensive design analysis before being considered for the trials at Infantry School, Mhow.

The Project Management Team (PMT) had completed demonstrative firing of the rifle last week. Among the things that the Army has pointed out to is "excessive recoil, barrel bulge, and stoppage-free firing."

....

The Army has further said: "Excessive flash and sound signature have been observed in the prototype as compared to desired levels...the aspect of interchangeable barrels has not been thought, conceived and thus not incorporated."

Besides, the Army has also said that the weapon needs ergonomics correction, which assume considerable importance.

Is only a demonstrative firing and not trials and the Army has not rejected but asked for improvements. Our DDMs have called it a failure even before proper trials

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jun 2017 09:20

Barrel bulge is serious.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 Jun 2017 18:27

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 127514.ece

Apparently the army is yet to freeze the GQSR for 7.62 nato rifles, yet they rejected OFB prototype.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jun 2017 18:38

"Kalashnikov" is a detailed video with the new AK-12, AK-15 and RPK-16

The video shows the features of this weapon. So, for example, the AK-12 has a quick muzzle brake-compensator, plastic forearm and grip on the vapor tube with Picatinny rail, rear sight with adjustable range of up to 800 meters and a five-way telescopic butt. A modified store 30 caliber 5.45 mm provided with identification windows. Shop, by the way, can be used as a support in the management of fire.

It is reported that this machine has already passed all the stages of development of the military operation , and it is planned to adopt the Russian army as a major long-barreled firearms.

AK-15 is an analog automatic AK-12 by 7.62 mm ammunition. Interestingly and 5.45 mm machine gun RPK-16, which is specially designed to store drum capacity 96 cartridges.

I have a machine gun receiver cover with Picatinny rail, telescopic butt and ergonomic pistol grip with pencil case for accessories. A main trunk can be easily changed. Weight RPK-16 is only 4.5 kilograms, which is twice less than the foreign analogues.

Also on the video is represented by a set of modernization of the Kalashnikov assault rifle.

https://rg.ru/2017/06/20/kalashnikov-po ... pk-16.html

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Jun 2017 19:45

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jun 2017 21:51

Lt. Gen Katoch in an article linked in Twitter syas this R-2 is an up caliered Excalibur.
He gives saga of INSAS development and the numbers required.
Very big milestone contract.
Did you see the upward jerk as Gen Joshi is firing?

Yet he had praised its accuracy per the PMT leader.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Jun 2017 00:14

No comments yet on the general's Rambo shooting stance?

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 25 Jun 2017 02:28

So, going over this thread for the last 2 years, this is the sequence of events as they happened in selecting a new rifle for the IA:

1. The IA was looking to replace the INSAS with a new assault rifle. From the news reports, it was not too happy with the INSAS experience and with the performance of the OFB. Was most likely looking to import given a choice.
2. The OFB offered the new, upgraded version of INSAS, in the form of Excalibur. The OFB said the Excalibur had addressed all the deficiencies of INSAS, and offered all features of modern rifles along with improved relieability.
3. The army sujected the Excalibur to extensive testing. The rifle performed very well in trials. The few issues that were found were adressed quickly by the DRDO/ OFB. The army could not finsd a reason to reject. The Excalibur was on the verge of being selected as the new assault rifle of the IA.
4. Suddenly, in an army commander's conference, the army changed goalposts, and decided it will discard the 5.56mm rifles, and go for a 7.62 caliber rifle as its standard infantry weapon. The Excalibur thus was knocked out of consideration.
5. Parrikar did not allow the army to go for quick imports. He gave the OFB another chance, by ordering the DRDO/ OFB to come up with a new 7.62mm assault rifle in 4 months to meet the needs of the army.
6. The DRDO/ OFB came up with a new 7.62mm assault rifle which, some reports say, is just an up-calibered version of the Excalibur.
7. The army, up to the levels of the top brass, tried the new OFB 7.62mm assault rifle. The first report said the rifle performed very well in trials and that the army was pleased, and had asked for only minor modifications that will take only 15 days to make.
8. Then, another report came out that the army had trashed the rifle, and said it has major deficiencies.
9. In the meantime, the army started the tendering process from foreign manufacturers, some of whom have already signed collaboration agreements with the Indian private sector.

From the above, it seems to me that the army has made up its mind to import, perhaps under MII with a private Indian manufacturer. Looks like it will not select the OFB rifle, unless forced to by the GoI.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jun 2017 00:20

X-Posting

Philip wrote:OFB have just failed the IA's rifle test too! the failures of the OFB should've seen heads roll a long time ago. Our problem is that there is simply no accountability for incompetence. The PM we're told though is selecting competent, honest officers for key posts, to get results. The DPSUs need a breath of fresh air and HR to get them to deliver and on time.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jun 2017 00:22

abhik wrote:No comments yet on the general's Rambo shooting stance?

The 7.62x51 is almost like a 0.303 cartridge. People have dislocate shoulders from the recoil. The fact that the General is able to fire the 7.62 x 51 powered R2 shows its capability.

This rifle is called R2.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 30 Jun 2017 08:56

http://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 273147.cms

OFB rifle not yet rejected.

Article in hindi, here's the gist of it:

There have been reports in the media that the OFB rifle has been rejected, however army sources have informed that the trials of the gun have not been conducted yet. The rifle has a long way to cover before trials, design analysis is required. This was just a demo firing following which some improvements have been suggested.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 30 Jun 2017 14:49

^^ Sometimes local and vernacular news media cover more accurately than fake media.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 02 Jul 2017 04:37

Troops with new helmets in the picture?

In the picture in this story, a couple of the troops returning from the encounter in J&K today seem to be wearing the new helmets. So the helmets have started reaching the line units. Love it!

Aren't they going to cover the new helmets with camoflauge cloth matching the uniform? Is that done by the manufacturer, or at the unit level?

More than the big ticket items, I am interested in quick procurement of new helmets, BPJs, carbines, and rifles for the infantry in the field. Enough delay already.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 02 Jul 2017 08:48

IWI has intorduced Tavor 7 in 7.62 NATO which has some differences from Tavor 21 and X95, most notably shift from long stroke to short stroke piston system and relocation of charging handle

Specifications:
• Caliber: 7.62 NATO/.308 Win
• Barrel: CHF/CL 1:12 twist with a 16″ barrel; 1:10 with 18″ barrel
• OAL: 26.75″ with 16″ barrel (without flash suppressor)
• Weight: 8.6 Lbs.
• Optional calibers & Conversion Kits: TBD
• Colors: Black, FDE and OD Green

Features (muzzle to butt):
• Muzzle threads: 5/8 x 24
• 4 position variable gas regulator (including off)
• Upper forend: 2 MLOK slots at 3 o’clock and 9 o’clock
• Lower forend: Removable SAR styled forend cover that exposes one integral pic rail at 6 o’clock when removed.
• Charging handle lockable in open position, similar to an MP5.
• Full length one piece Picatinny (Mil-Spec) top rail with integral folding BUIS; Tritium front post.
• Cutlass style grip modifiable to pistol grip with traditional trigger guard; same as X95.
• Short stroke gas piston (unlike our long stroke SAR and X95).
• Uses LR/SR25 magazines and comes with one 20-round Magpul PMAG with window (in states without capacity restrictions; 10 round for restricted states).
• Bolt release is Tavor SAR style along centerline or release from MP5 style charging handle
• Fire control group is not interchangeable with SAR or X95.

Ambidextrous Features:
• Ambidextrous bolt; no opposite hand bolt needed for conversion to opposite hand operation. No need to return the gun to IWI US for opposite hand conversion and head space checking.
• Ambidextrous (all the time) magazine release position like our X95, similar to an AR-15.
• Ambidextrous charging handle with push through receiver functionality. No need for tools or any disassembly.
• Ambidextrous (all the time) safety selector with a 450 rotation (unlike 900 on our SAR and X95).
• Ambidextrous (all the time) bolt release behind magazine; similar to the Tavor SAR.
• Ejection port covers are user configurable in the field with a simple slide of the case deflector.

Launch Date: First shipments projected to start in January, 2018.

Price: TBD

http://jerkingthetrigger.com/2017/06/29 ... cs-images/

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Jul 2017 17:53

Our Rifle Works Flawlessly, Thanks: Government Manufacturer Takes On Indian Army

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 04 Jul 2017 18:37

Austin wrote:Our Rifle Works Flawlessly, Thanks: Government Manufacturer Takes On Indian Army

Haven't read the article as the site wont allow me since I use ad-blocker. But is rNDTV trying to show a scuffle between IA and OFB here, where probably there is none..??

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jul 2017 04:13

Key takeaway is 10 more rifles being made by RIF.
New tender is being readied for this 7.62mm rifle.
21 mfg from.all over world are intending to bid.
1,85,000 rifles likely order.
Approximate price is 1 lakh per rifle with sights.
Quite reasonable if you ask me for a new military grade rifle.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 Jul 2017 06:20

Austin wrote:Our Rifle Works Flawlessly, Thanks: Government Manufacturer Takes On Indian Army

Rs 1 lakh each!! I'm not surprised the IA told the OFB leeches to shove off.

The French just signed a €168M/$177M contract for 93,000 HK 416 rifles. That works out to Rs 1.23 lakh each. The HK 417 probably goes for a bit more but for an order size twice as large (185,000 units) you could still bring that down to maybe Rs 1.1-1.2 lakh each off-the-shelf.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 05 Jul 2017 12:25

Heckler & Koch, the German manufacturer, will deliver 100,000 rifles as well as accessories, ammunition and provide weapons training to all parts of the French military, including the Army, Navy and Air Force. The value of the 10-year contract is estimated to be around €300 million ($336 million).

Actual cost per rifle is around 2 lakh 17 thousand with ammunition and some accessories.

Can't read NDTV article because of ad blocker and there is limited information about French deal. So can't compare

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 Jul 2017 12:48

jamwal wrote:Actual cost per rifle is around 2 lakh 17 thousand with ammunition and some accessories.

I don't think accessories (aside from magazines perhaps) or ammunition is included in the price quoted by OFB.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Jul 2017 14:18

Why is the Indian Army still using outdated assault rifles designed in the 1980s?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 05 Jul 2017 14:33

Incidentally INSAS costs around Rs. 30,000 and the marginal cost is Rs. 15,000.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 05 Jul 2017 14:36

Austin wrote:Why is the Indian Army still using outdated assault rifles designed in the 1980s?

Why is USA is using oudated Browning HMG of WW II fame, MP5 which are 50 year old designs, M14 of WW II as DMR, FN GMAG which is 50 years old design? Why Why Why????

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 05 Jul 2017 14:57

Viv S wrote:
jamwal wrote:Actual cost per rifle is around 2 lakh 17 thousand with ammunition and some accessories.
I don't think accessories (aside from magazines perhaps) or ammunition is included in the price quoted by OFB.

What accessories are French getting ? OFB gun has scope

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jul 2017 18:40

VivS OFB is a GOI entity. Why call them leaches? They function with all the constraints.

nam · Post by **nam** » 05 Jul 2017 19:14

Gyan wrote:Incidentally INSAS costs around Rs. 30,000 and the marginal cost is Rs. 15,000.

Which incidentally goes back to the payer.. GoI !

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 05 Jul 2017 19:37

nam wrote:Which incidentally goes back to the payer.. GoI !

No, it doesn't. It goes to steel & composite parts suppliers, electricity to run machines, as well as employees.

Secondly, while unit cost of labour is less in India, the over-employment results in greater number of man hours and that inflates cost of an Indian Rifle vis-a-vis US Rifle

There is a projected cost and there is actual cost. During planning phase, lets say for MMG, it is calculated that 10 Belgian workers work for 10 days.

Substituting 10 Belgian workers with 10 Indian workers shows lower cost in planning phase.

However, in reality 40 Indian workers work on overtime. This results in increased cost and delayed delivery. The chaps would be buying grocery, dropping kids to school, taking tea & smoke breaks. In my time, OFB used to have quota for employee children too. After all, all of them vote. So much for meritocracy...

There is an Ordnance Factory in Pappu's constituency in Amethi. Guess what is its output

Ordnance Factory Project Korwa
P.O. HAL KORWA
District - Amethi
PIN - 227412
Uttar Pradesh, India.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=68250

A decision has been taken in the year 2007 for setting up an Ordnance Factory at Korwa at an estimated investment of ` 408.01 crore by October 2010.

The constructions of most of the Shops, Buildings and Services have already been completed. An amount of `48 crores has been expended towards Civil Works till date. 25 nos. of Plant & Machineries have been tendered for procurement with an estimated value of `65 crores. Close Quarter Battle (CQB) Carbines are to be produced at OFPKR at a production rate of 45,000 per annum. Besides, 20,000 nos. of 5.56 mm INSAS Rifle and 5,000 nos. each of 0.32” pistols & Revolver and 0.30”-06 Sporting Rifles are also to be produced annually.

There is also a Hindustan Aeronautics Limited factory at Korwa, Amethi to manufacture avionics. Here is what it manufactures -

http://www.hal-india.com/Avionics%20Div ... rwa/M__123

HUDWAC & COMED are long out of service

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 05 Jul 2017 22:04

Austin wrote:Why is the Indian Army still using outdated assault rifles designed in the 1980s?

A troll.in piece by saikat dutta. As full of bile as it is of nonsense. I wish brfites avoid these breaking india fellows.

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Jul 2017 07:50

Gyan wrote:
Austin wrote:Why is the Indian Army still using outdated assault rifles designed in the 1980s?
Why is USA is using oudated Browning HMG of WW II fame, MP5 which are 50 year old designs, M14 of WW II as DMR, FN GMAG which is 50 years old design? Why Why Why????

AK-47 too.

Article is a hit job.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2017 07:54

they should change rifles every 2 yrs like people buy smartphones.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 06 Jul 2017 11:16

Singha wrote:they should change rifles every 2 yrs like people buy smartphones.

Such ideas come from MoD babus and no one else. It is basic babu programme of keeping the gravy train running. The more I see these things the more I am convinced that MoD IAS gangs are a major security threat to the nation. Unless serious reforms are done on how the national security and defense-related matters are administered ASAP we will be facing major problems.