Small Arms Thread

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 01 Sep 2018 09:53

Almost on cue

Kalashnikov unveils latest AK assault rifle

On 21 August, the first day of the Army 2018 defence show being held in Kubinka near Moscow until 26 August, a new Kalashnikov assault rifle chambered for the 7.62×51 mm NATO round was unveiled to the public. This most recent addition to the latest generation of the Kalashnikov family of rifles has been designated as the AK-308.

The AK-308 prototype unveiled at Army 2018 is of the latest AK-12/15 family pattern, with a number of distinct features related to the heavier and more powerful 7.62×51 mm NATO cartridge it is chambered for. Unlike the AK-12 and AK-15 assault rifles, chambered for 5.45×39 mm and 7.62×39 mm rounds, respectively, the front portion of the AK-308’s receiver was modified to accommodate the heavier front barrel trunnion as per Kalashnikov’s RPK, RPK-74, and RPK-16 light machine gun series. Furthermore, the exhibited AK-308 prototype had a distinctive combined compensator and flash-hider attached to its muzzle.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 02 Sep 2018 04:15

Is this a joke?

MoD flip-flops

2007 Indian Army decides to change its three-decade-old INSAS rifles with new hi-tech weapons

2011 First tender is issued for a dual-calibre rifle that allows two types of ammunition —7.62x39mm and 5.56x45mm

2015 Tender issued in 2011 is withdrawn

Second attempt is made to buy modified INSAS 1C rifles, but it is scrapped too after the Army opts for a rifle for heavier 7.62x51mm rounds
JAN. 2017 Third change comes in as Ministry of Defence okays purchase of 72,400 7.62x51mm rifle rifles
AUG 31, 2018 Fourth effective change is made as the Indian Army now wants 7.62x39mm rifles and issues a fresh tender to procure new 6.5 lakh assault weapons

army-wants-6-5-lakh-rifles-with-new-specs
Whoever is making these decisions, I would like to know which stuff they are smoking and from where they are buying it so I can try some of that stuff too.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Sep 2018 05:27

The IAs assault rifle program is their MMRCA. It just keeps going on and on and on and on

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 02 Sep 2018 05:47

Tribune report is misleading. The 6.5 lakh rifle tender is for the 'second line'. Here is the story from ET this morning:

Army starts process to buy 6.5 lakh rifles

The Army has set the ball rolling for acquiring 6.5 lakh new assault rifles, with “reduced technical specifications”, under what will eventually be an over Rs 12,000 crore “Make in India” project in the years ahead.

The Army on Friday floated a RFI (request for information) for 7.62x39mm caliber assault rifles, with an effective kill range of 300 metres to be produced by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) as well as private sector companies, for which responses must be submitted by September 24.

This comes after the defence ministry earlier this year approved the Rs 1,798 crore procurement of 72,400 advanced assault rifles from abroad under the fast-track procedure (FTP) for frontline troops. So, in effect, soldiers deployed on the borders with China and Pakistan will get 7.62x51mm caliber assault rifles with a longer kill range, while other troops will get guns with lower GSQRs (general staff qualitative requirements).

Though eyebrows have been raised at this, Army chief General Bipin Rawat had publicly declared that his entire 12-lakh strong force could not be equipped with top-notch rifles due to budgetary constraints.

The hi-tech 7.62x51mm caliber rifles will be only for infantry battalions deployed on the front, while the bulk of weapons for the force would come through the indigenous route. The Army will initially accept weapon systems with “lower GSQRs” to give a boost to the local industry, but hi-tech weapons must be delivered in the long run, Gen Rawat had said.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 02 Sep 2018 07:20

^^ Yes but doesn't this kind of beats the purpose if the purpose is to standardize the infantry. There are a few basic problems with this plan

There would be another caliber of bullets, on top of already ongoing 5.56 and 7.62AK. A logistical bad dream.
Jawans need to be trained in two separate caliber of rifles(if not all then atleast a good number of them)
There are only two rifles that are manufactured in numbers that use this caliber, and both of them are short of any features except reliability
OFB was just asked to make a 7.62 NATO rifle, so they were out

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 03 Sep 2018 08:13

souravB wrote:^^ Yes but doesn't this kind of beats the purpose if the purpose is to standardize the infantry. There are a few basic problems with this plan
There would be another caliber of bullets, on top of already ongoing 5.56 and 7.62AK. A logistical bad dream.

Jawans need to be trained in two separate caliber of rifles(if not all then atleast a good number of them)

There are only two rifles that are manufactured in numbers that use this caliber, and both of them are short of any features except reliability

OFB was just asked to make a 7.62 NATO rifle, so they were out

I agree that this decisison creates a logistical and training nightmare. But it is a compromise decision that the Army brass worked out with the GoI.

The GoI wanted the army to buy INSAS derivatives from the OFB, the army said no good.
The army wanted all 8 lakh rifles to be the super-spec most sophisticated western ones, GoI said no money.
They worked out a compromise whereby the 75,000 'first line' troops will get the super-duper western rifle, whereas the rest of army will get the reduced spec 'second line' rifle made by OFB (likely in collaboration with the Russian AK).
So, the army will now get a half-horse and half-donkey.
Instead, I wish they had gone for a mule, i.e. the latest version of the AK, to be made in collaboration with Kalashnikov, with half the rifles to be made by the OFB and the other half by a private company in India.

My questions for the Gurus:
1. Is there any major army that uses the 7.52x51mm caliber for its main assault rifle for the general infantry?
2. The Tavor may be a good rifle for the special forces, but is it suitable for the general infantry? For one thing, how does the bullpup design work with a bayonet?

TIA

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 03 Sep 2018 09:05

Kakkaji wrote:
My questions for the Gurus:
1. Is there any major army that uses the 7.52x51mm caliber for its main assault rifle for the general infantry?
2. The Tavor may be a good rifle for the special forces, but is it suitable for the general infantry? For one thing, how does the bullpup design work with a bayonet?

TIA

1. Turkey, Pakistan (G3 is still officially the standard rifle)

2. IDF is using Tavor family as standard issue and most issues seem to be ironed out after a decade of service. Given that almost all special units have adopted Tavor in huge numbers must say something good about it. Bayonet charge must suck on such short length.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 03 Sep 2018 14:43

Kakkaji wrote: Instead, I wish they had gone for a mule, i.e. the latest version of the AK, to be made in collaboration with Kalashnikov, with half the rifles to be made by the OFB and the other half by a private company in India.

<rant>
How for the life of me I cannot understand is IA happy with OFB made AKs (There was a news of Izmash going into JV with OFB to produce AK103 a few months back) but not with OFB made 7.62 NATO rifle. On paper that rifle seems better than AK, milled receiver vs stamped receiver, contemporary design etc.
And if the concern is cost, properly produced Russian MILspec AKs do not come cheap. Cheaper than Tavor ofcourse but I doubt it would be cheaper than India made Galil.
Also there were so many cheaper options out there like Indonesia and South Korea for cheaper ARs, US military surplus M16s, even Turkey makes a relatively good one.
IA brass should be saying to MoD that you may not give me funds, but we'll prioritize the basic infantry things and will hold buying everything else till those requirements are fulfilled.
</rant>

jpremnath · Post by **jpremnath** » 03 Sep 2018 14:51

From the beginning the IA appeared to be in a hurry to dismiss the desi efforts at developing a new rifle even when the outcome of some of those efforts like JVPC, MCIWS looked promising. Any other country would have went ahead and told it's forces to assist in the development of a better version if they are not satisfied with the current version. But not in this country...Where the armed forces with its anathema for anything desi,and where we have govts which doesn't see it's important to convince them that's it's a strategic suicide to depend on external agencies for our weapons and spend money which we don't have .

It's sad..And tragic...Years from now, we can only hope that all these quixotic circus by our armed forces is not listed as the reasons why our asses were whooped in another Brooks Henderson report...

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 03 Sep 2018 22:13

Would they exclude desi designs from the competition?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Sep 2018 23:03

AK-15/AK-12 Rifle

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 04 Sep 2018 00:01

Katare wrote:Would they exclude desi designs from the competition?

Only the SQR people know, but if I take an educated guess then there is no point in including desi designs since IA already rejected most/all of them. MCIWS R2 could have had a chance being a 7.62 Soviet but since IA changed the caliber requirement to 308 NATO, there is no further news of it.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 04 Sep 2018 06:30

Thakur_B wrote:1. Turkey, Pakistan (G3 is still officially the standard rifle)

2. IDF is using Tavor family as standard issue and most issues seem to be ironed out after a decade of service. Given that almost all special units have adopted Tavor in huge numbers must say something good about it. Bayonet charge must suck on such short length.

The Israeli Army may not need to use the bayonet anymore, but the Indian Army will. IMHO, the Tavor will put the IA at a disadvantage in bayonet charges against the Pakis.

My preference (for whatever it is worth:

1. The Galil, to be made in India by Punj-Lloyd for the first line' rifle
2. The AK (whichever version meets the reduded specs), to be made in India under license by the OFB, for the 'second line'.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 04 Sep 2018 06:41

As if on cue:

In Rafale season, Govt rejects Russia’s request for Adanis as AK-rifle deal partner

The development could delay conclusion of the government-to-government deal which was to be concluded before the visit to Russia this October of Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

The inter-government agreement to buy six lakh AK-103, worth nearly Rs 50,000 a piece, was initiated during Sitharaman’s Moscow visit in April. At that time, it was mutually agreed that Indian Ordnance Factories would partner the Russians.

In July, the Russians put in a request that they be allowed to partner Adani (Defence & Aerospace) for the joint production of assault rifles in India.

Kalashnikov Concern, the Russian firm, is offering the AK-103, a modernised version of the AK-47/AKM rifle, numerous quantities of which are in use by the Indian Army, police and paramilitary forces.

Even the Russians do not want to partner with the OFB.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Sep 2018 09:44

Does OFB have the bandwidth to make these AK in India ? It is better to prop up a private partner who can compete with OFB and make small arms in India be it Adani or any body else

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 04 Sep 2018 10:49

Austin wrote:Does OFB have the bandwidth to make these AK in India ? It is better to prop up a private partner who can compete with OFB and make small arms in India be it Adani or any body else

Forget who manufactures!!!
The mind boggling stupidity of 7.62x39 ....
How much better is that from a 5.56?

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 04 Sep 2018 14:44

^^ Not much. Here is a comparison between the two rounds. Please note the stopping power and the trajectory.
short range trajectory

energy

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 04 Sep 2018 15:31

It was a rhetorical Q but thanks.

Lets have 7.62x51 and 5.56. Atleast that way new rifles in higher caliber and insas 1c with milled receiver and other improvements for 5.56...

Bloody circus..

ConstipTion of thought and a diarrhoea of RFP's!!!

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 04 Sep 2018 15:41

IA could have gone in 6.5SPC caliber way too. much greater stopping power than 7.62x39 and better trajectory than 5.56 nato.
Even our own MCIWS used 6.8x43 caliber and if asked ARDE could make an long stroke version in 6.5SPC caliber for testing.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Sep 2018 15:33

The search for an assault rifle

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/up-f ... 2018-09-07

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Sep 2018 17:33

I think 2 rifles per soldier is our requirement, 7.62*39 and 7.62 *51. For High Altitude, Desert areas and open areas where engagements will be fought over longer distances this round will be better, the 7.62*39 for coin, Jungle, Punjab plains, Kasmir LOC south of Zojila where thick green cover will mean typical engagement ranges will be lower.

THe 5.56*45 round does not not cut it for us, they dont really care about thier wounded. The only consideration in High altitude areas is lighter weight of the rifles and ammunition may give the edge since the soldiers have to climb steep mountains in combat.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 08 Sep 2018 18:22

Austin wrote:The search for an assault rifle

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/up-f ... 2018-09-07

The MoD now wants the AK-103 to be produced in one of the three rifle factories at Ishapore, Kanpur or Tiruchirappalli. Production lines at these factories can make 30,000 rifles each year, but are currently idle for the first time in nearly two decades as production of the indigenous INSAS has stopped.

What a mess!

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 09 Sep 2018 08:44

Is it the ak103 or ak103M we want?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 09 Sep 2018 09:33

Based on comparions b/w 5.56X45 and 7.62X39, there is not much difference b/w them, and at higher ranges, 5.56 is slightly better. Why is IA going in for 7.62X39 for its new rifles? Is there any specific advantages of 7.62X39 that is missing in most comparisons online?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 09 Sep 2018 10:06

We have already launched production of Ghatak, so what's the rationale of AK-103?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 09 Sep 2018 10:47

putnanja wrote:Based on comparions b/w 5.56X45 and 7.62X39, there is not much difference b/w them, and at higher ranges, 5.56 is slightly better. Why is IA going in for 7.62X39 for its new rifles? Is there any specific advantages of 7.62X39 that is missing in most comparisons online?

Ak103 is 7.62 x 39

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 Sep 2018 11:38

Why not think out of the box and go for case telescopic ammo in intermediate calibre. Such as 6.8 mm.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 09 Sep 2018 14:28

Pratyush wrote:Why not think out of the box and go for case telescopic ammo in intermediate calibre. Such as 6.8 mm.

Or actually invent multi-caliber bullets!!!!

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 09 Sep 2018 16:09

Pratyush wrote:Why not think out of the box and go for case telescopic ammo in intermediate calibre. Such as 6.8 mm.

If this circus carries on for some more time, the US effort to do the same might see the light of day, and IA might shift the goal post to the new and shiny thing.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 09 Sep 2018 17:15

Every major AK user country is moving out of 7.62x39. Russia has gone 5.45. China has gone for 5.8.
Now the argument that 7.62AK has more stopping power than 5.56NATO has limited truth. The energy of the bullet starts to merge after 70 or so meters.
If we factor in the small size of the NATO round, it gives us more penetrating power at more than 200-300m.
IA maybe is looking for a cost effective option, but saving a few hundred million is going to cost efficiency and accuracy loss for our forces in the long run.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 09 Sep 2018 17:30

ks_sachin wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Why not think out of the box and go for case telescopic ammo in intermediate calibre. Such as 6.8 mm.
Or actually invent multi-caliber bullets!!!!

Or multi-caliber guns

Here is an example of a rather point-less one

Phillips & Rodgers M47 Medusa

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 09 Sep 2018 18:12

Gyan wrote:We have already launched production of Ghatak, so what's the rationale of AK-103?

Going forward para military and state police forces will be equipped with Ghatak. The forces facing Naxals/other militants will be equipped with AK variants.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 09 Sep 2018 20:22

ks_sachin wrote:
putnanja wrote:Based on comparions b/w 5.56X45 and 7.62X39, there is not much difference b/w them, and at higher ranges, 5.56 is slightly better. Why is IA going in for 7.62X39 for its new rifles? Is there any specific advantages of 7.62X39 that is missing in most comparisons online?
Ak103 is 7.62 x 39

I know, that's why I am questioning why IA is going in for AK103? Is there some other advantage to 7.62X39 that we don't know about? Or is it only for CI duties and they will go for 7.62X51 for regular duties??

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 10 Sep 2018 02:58

putnanja wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: Ak103 is 7.62 x 39
I know, that's why I am questioning why IA is going in for AK103? Is there some other advantage to 7.62X39 that we don't know about? Or is it only for CI duties and they will go for 7.62X51 for regular duties??

I think they already use that caliber in valley. All the Aks perhaps are 7.62x39?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Sep 2018 10:39

The 7,62x39 is absolutely not comparable with the 7,62x51 , The latter is full power round its russian counterpart being the 7,62x54R instead.
They are rounds optimized for MG and marksman rifles, not for an assault rifle. There was however a trend of trying to use it also for individual weapons but it work well only in the hand of selected individuals not for the standard soldier.

The only reason why India would have chosen Ak-103 is the wide proliferation of AK in our Armed Forces and Para military , They have ordered lakhs of AK's from multiple CIS countries during height of insurgency in Kashmir and NE and recently order a huge amount from Bulgaria for AK's for paramilitary and airport security. Most of Airport security personal in Mumbai carry these brand new AK

The Ammo of 7,62x39 must be available as widely and in great numbers as the AK itself and many times more , SO moving over to AK-103 would be logical because of expereince with AK and logistics like ammo and special rounds available.

Ak-103 being used widely in many countries would have been cheaper to procure compared to more modern avatar like AK-15 but as they say Better is the enemy of Good

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Sep 2018 10:45

New modernized version of AK-103 assault rifle named AK-103M

https://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons ... -103m.html

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Sep 2018 10:57

7.62 X39 has a big advantage in stopping power and causing fatality in fractions of a second better than the 5.56 X45 at short distances, this its main advantage in short distances terminating a Jihadi before he blows up his sucide vest. They are much better than the 5.56 in causing bone shattering injuries if it hits the limbs. Only thing the 7.62 X39 becomes inaccurate if ranges increase. The 7.62X51 suffers in close combat due to the recoil and Barrel length in close quater engagements, the Indian Army learned painfully from Sri Lankan operations and COIN where the LTTE and Jihadi Ak-56's were far more easy to use. Hence, the decesion to move to 5.56 and AK's. But for normal conventional conflict the AK is not very useful as it is difficult to fire it at targets greater than 100 meters accurately since the round tends to drop.

This multi barrel riffle is impratical. what we need to train our soldiers with 2 rifles. The AKM series 7.62X39 when deployed in COIN, Jungle areas or areas where thereis thick green cover and engagements are likely to be over short distances and 7.62X51 when deployed in areas of Deserts, Salt marches or above the Tree line where engagement is liekly to be at longer distances. The 7.62X51 is also a better ammo for LMG's and Machine guns within the platoon. We also should standardise this for most Sniper rifles and deploy them in numbers along with anti material rifles and Browning equivalent machine guns standardising on our own 12.7, 14.5 and 20.5 caliber ammos.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 17 Sep 2018 23:12

Carbine procurement going for a toss up

After staff evaluation, two companies — Caracal of the UAE and S&T Motiv of South Korea —have been declared non-complaint by a nine-member committee headed by an Army brigadier.

Highly-placed sources told FE that the embassy of Korea in New Delhi has written to the ministry of defence pointing out that S&T Motiv had been declared non-compliant in spite of meeting all the requirements under the request for proposal.

A senior officer told FE, “In case of non-compliance, companies are informed at the pre-trial stage. There were extensive trials in the UAE and South Korea. The two were also called for trials in India for testing with Indian ammunition.”

Absolute shitschturm.
IA is going to operate with all the major calibers available and then some more.
These 93000 carbines will be supplemented by our JVPC, which fires 5.56x30 round.

jpremnath · Post by **jpremnath** » 17 Sep 2018 23:48

I think a more practical solution will be arm our CISF, ITBP and other para military forces with JVPC and possible MCIWS Mk2...Let them use the weapon and find out the chinks if any..And if they prove to be good, then it will be easier to convince the Army to buy them...Or better,.. they themselves might realise what a cock up their multiple calibers has been and turn around themselves

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 18 Sep 2018 00:10

In my view(as just a gun enthusiast civilian) multiple calibers are required for various role but somebody somewhere needs to fix a number. A proper planning with 10-15 years in vision is necessary. One quote I remember which aptly describe the situation

Better is the enemy of Best

multiple solutions to same problem has it's disadvantages.
for an example, as DMR, IA uses .338 as well as .308. Granted .338 is a better caliber but at 800m both the bullet will kill a man if hit, so is it worth carrying that extra round just as a DMR round if everybody else in your squad carries .308.