Small Arms Thread

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 18 Jan 2018 07:00

ramana wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:

Why not bypass the ofb and get manufacturing done by pvt sector. ARDE can conc on design and dev and surely with the conf that manufacturing quality will be good IA will support and iteratively....

You kidding right? What makes you think suddenly Private Sector will make quality military grade products?

Ramana ji, small arms is definitely within the grasp of private sector. The hardest part is the design. Throw open the AAR/MCIWS and INSAS design to private sector to tinker with and they will come up with decent designs in under an year. Look at just what are the sticking points for INSAS:

- Furniture from bygone era.
- Poor accessories (slings, magazines)
- Improper extraction.
- Muzzle break design can be improved to reduce muzzle rise.

In fact, INSAS can be upgraded just like the AKMs are being done by FAB defence. Even the existing INSAS can be adapted to use STANAG Nato magazines and a bolt catch be installed in modifications. Take a look at this video, a magwell adaptor is welded and riveted on the receiver of 5.56 AKM derivative (there are several designs that do not require welding, but they are model specific) which gives it ability to use STANAG magazines and bolt hold open.

Ideally, we should be adopting an INSAS rescue program like the brits did with SA-80 involving H&K, which made it a reliable firearm. Reuse the barrels, gas tubes, pistons and bolt carrier, replace the bolt, body and magazines. Make specifications open to all eligible suppliers.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 18 Jan 2018 07:40

A peek into how the modern russian balanced recoil system works.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 18 Jan 2018 07:44

+1

Ramana sir thanks for the clarity on the 3 distinct requirements.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 18 Jan 2018 14:29

Sauvrav Jha saying on twitter that both the Tavor 7 and the Ace are in contention for the deal. I think this is a closed case as a govt to govt deal with Belgium or Italy is likely to be more difficult than with Israel. Both the ace and tavor are good pieces and we will never face parts denial under any circumstances.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jan 2018 00:36

Thakur_B, Very good observation. Maybe the INSAS rescue should be prioritized for arming the Central Police forces?

Do we have a cut away drawing of the INSAS and can you mark up the improvements?

Bharadwaj, You could be right. The Europeans will bring in conflict bokwas.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Jan 2018 16:00

Thakur_B wrote: Ramana ji, small arms is definitely within the grasp of private sector. The hardest part is the design. Throw open the AAR/MCIWS and INSAS design to private sector to tinker with and they will come up with decent designs in under an year. Look at just what are the sticking points for INSAS:

- Furniture from bygone era.
- Poor accessories (slings, magazines)
- Improper extraction.
- Muzzle break design can be improved to reduce muzzle rise.

In fact, INSAS can be upgraded just like the AKMs are being done by FAB defence. Even the existing INSAS can be adapted to use STANAG Nato magazines and a bolt catch be installed in modifications. Take a look at this video, a magwell adaptor is welded and riveted on the receiver of 5.56 AKM derivative (there are several designs that do not require welding, but they are model specific) which gives it ability to use STANAG magazines and bolt hold open.

Ideally, we should be adopting an INSAS rescue program like the brits did with SA-80 involving H&K, which made it a reliable firearm. Reuse the barrels, gas tubes, pistons and bolt carrier, replace the bolt, body and magazines. Make specifications open to all eligible suppliers.

Thakur ji. I was the video you posted and then I was looking at the Insas IC. The furniture looks quite modern etc etc. I believe it is chambered for the 7.62 but again looks wise that is an evolution. Have you any idea if the 1C fixed some of the other problems with the weapon.
Also poor accessories - was this manufacturing or design issues.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jan 2018 10:00

https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 6426797057 --> OFB's new Sniper Rifle enters service with Tamil Nadu Police Commandos. First seen during 8th All India Police Commando Competition held at NSG, Manesar.

Details
Range: 800-1000mm
Calibre: 7.62 x 51mm
Weight: 6.7 kg
Cost: 2.5 lakhs
Mag: 5 rds

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 25 Jan 2018 06:39

Here is a reason the optical sight with a drawn out fiber optic cable to the eye makes sense,

http://www.dailypioneer.com/nation/civi ... -pura.html

Paying homage to martyred BSF head constable DG BSF said,“The head constable was behind his LMG and was retaliating to Pakistani fire from a loophole of one foot by one-foot square. Enemies target that. A bullet entered from the loophole and hit him. It was very unfortunate,” he said.

There is a yt video as well of a jawan firing his LMG through such a hole during daylight in the previous page of this thread, things would be worse in the night conditions

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 25 Jan 2018 10:17

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 6426797057 --> OFB's new Sniper Rifle enters service with Tamil Nadu Police Commandos. First seen during 8th All India Police Commando Competition held at NSG, Manesar.

Details
Range: 800-1000mm
Calibre: 7.62 x 51mm
Weight: 6.7 kg
Cost: 2.5 lakhs
Mag: 5 rds

Is that wood architecture?!

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 25 Jan 2018 11:26

Has this not been discussed earlier, in some depth, in this thread ?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4016&start=3012

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 25 Jan 2018 12:25

^^ Thanks. I was told that while the prototypes were wood. the Production model may have have higher degree of blended material. Just wanted to know if anybody knows the build status of the Guns being rolled out

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 25 Jan 2018 20:00

Production model looks like leaf brown polymer.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 25 Jan 2018 23:22

Whats wrong with wood for a Sniper weapon.. Its a beautiful weapon!

nam · Post by **nam** » 25 Jan 2018 23:32

Read somewhere, wood was used based on the feedback from the forces.

Forces wanted the sniper rifle to be heavier to reduce recoil and be more stable.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 26 Jan 2018 11:44

IIRC, OFB manufacturers 7.62x63 rifle for civilian use. So OFB can easily manufacture a military version of the said rifle for long range ie up to 1200m , sniping.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 Jan 2018 13:12

The IAF issued an RFI for 600 7.62 mm rifles in May last year, presumably for the Garuds.

http://indianairforce.nic.in/pdf/MakeIn ... sights.pdf

Anyone know whether this was for an assault rifle (7.62 x 39) or battle rifle (7.62 x 51)?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 26 Jan 2018 19:22

Fn Minimi in service with NSG.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jan 2018 15:11

^^The man in that image looks uncomfortable with the gun and he has his index hooked right over the trigger. Scary as hell. Looks like he's modelling - not an actual trained weapon wielder.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Feb 2018 18:54

https://twitter.com/GrantTurnbull_/stat ... 7587484672

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 02 Feb 2018 06:34

^^ Glad to see A545/aek971 being finally adopted. Balanced recoil is impressive stuff.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 03 Feb 2018 10:52

Which one is the above?

Comes with integral Suppressors as well

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 03 Feb 2018 10:56

Thakur_B wrote:^^ Glad to see A545/aek971 being finally adopted. Balanced recoil is impressive stuff.

Any reason why they werent included in our tender?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 03 Feb 2018 11:41

That looks like the AMB-17 Silenced Assault Rifle, configured in 9x39mm dedicated subsonic rounds

It is a specialised version of the AM-17 (5.45x39mm caliber)

Probably being pitched to replace the AK9, which anway is in very limited usage (the AS Val and the VSS Vintorez being more favored by the Russian special forces).

rkhanna wrote:

Which one is the above?

Comes with integral Suppressors as well

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 03 Feb 2018 12:34

Manish_P wrote:That looks like the AMB-17 Silenced Assault Rifle, configured in 9x39mm dedicated subsonic rounds

It is a specialised version of the AM-17 (5.45x39mm caliber)

Probably being pitched to replace the AK9, which anway is in very limited usage (the AS Val and the VSS Vintorez being more favored by the Russian special forces).

rkhanna wrote:

Which one is the above?

Comes with integral Suppressors as well

Thanks for the correction.

I am thoroughly confused with the New Russian Small arms

Which are the guns shown here? One looks to be a 9mm SMG (left) and the other 545 with a supressor?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 03 Feb 2018 13:18

PP-19-01 Vityaz (9×19mm) on the left, probably AK12 (5.45×39mm) on the right (it might be the AK15 (7.62×39mm) also)

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 03 Feb 2018 21:48

This balanced recoil on small arms, would apply to the chin mounted guns of heptrs too?

srin · Post by **srin** » 04 Feb 2018 10:50

Weaponry of CRPF Cobras ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_HODv4Eq24&t=80s
51mm mortar
9mm Browning
7.62mm SSG Mannlicher sniper rifle
INSAS
FN FAL Auto 7.62mm
AK 47 with UBGL
INSAS LMG
SLR
X95
Glock 17

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 10 Feb 2018 11:51

Advertisement No. ORDFYS/RFI/CPPP/Vendor Registration/18-19/MPM/04 Date: 30/01/2018
Rifle Factory, Ishapore invites application from interested Vendors for
Registration and new Source development for the List of items with annual likely requirement as given on the website http://www.rfi.nic.in

http://rfi.nic.in/doc/OPEN_ADV_FOR%20_V ... 02_Jan.pdf

http://rfi.nic.in/doc/OPEN_ADV_FOR%20_V ... ALIBUR.pdf

http://rfi.nic.in/doc/OPEN_ADV_FOR%20_V ... %20SPR.pdf

sanjayc · Post by **sanjayc** » 10 Feb 2018 23:00

DRDO’s assault rifles to throw shield around Assam rhinos.

An indigenous hybrid rifle, named Ghatak for ‘deadly,’ will protect the rhino in Assam from heavily armed poachers.

The Assam Forest Department is poised to be the first non-police or non-paramilitary force to acquire the Ghatak, a multi-calibre rifle from the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO). It placed orders for the weapon more than a year ago. The rifle is described as a cross between an automatic close-combat weapon such as AK-47 and a more lethal long-range firearm.

Some consignments of the rifle have been delivered to Central Paramilitary Force as well as the Assam Police. The Ghatak is yet to clear the more stringent tests of the Army, such as 18 rounds of non-stop firing, but forest officials are not worried. “Our combat situation is different from that of the Army,” they say.

Dharanidhar Boro, a highly decorated green soldier who retired in 2016 after years of fighting poachers in Kaziranga National Park, is upbeat about Ghatak’s induction. “I am not sure how good it is, but it will certainly be much better than the unwieldy 0.315 rifles with which we guarded the rhino’s best-known home,” he said from western Assam’s Manas National Park, where he is now an officer on special duty.

Poachers a step ahead
On Kaziranga, a World Heritage site established in 1905, some 230 km east of Guwahati, the veteran officer says, “We did our best to save the rhinos during our time, but the poachers are always a step ahead. It is high time our guards are equipped with weapons that deter poachers.” The national park houses more than 55% of the world’s one-horned rhinos and boasts the highest density of Royal Bengal tigers.

Forest department records say 30 rhinos have been killed in the 430 sq. km. Kaziranga and other wildlife reserves such as Orang National Park and Pobitora Wildlife Sanctuary since January 2016. Six poachers were killed during this period. Cartridges recovered from rhino kill sites revealed the poachers were using AK-56 rifles, M16 and M4 carbines.

“The killing of a couple of rhinos last year made us realise that the archaic, single-shot bolt action rifles of our guards are no match for the sophisticated automatic weapons of the poachers. A decision was taken to overhaul the arsenal of our department,” Environment and Forest Minister Pramila Rani Brahma said.

“In March last year, we purchased an assortment of rifles from Ishapore Ordnance Factory in Kolkata. We received a few, but we are really looking forward to the Ghatak rifles,” the State’s Principal Chief Conservator of Forests, Bikash Brahma, said.

The weapons the department bought were 272 Indian Small Arms System or INSAS assault rifle, 954 self-loading rifles or SLRs, 91 Ghatak rifles, 20 pistols (9mm), and 133 pump action guns of 12-bore.

“Our men in the field are excited about Ghatak. But it will take a great deal of adjustment from the old rifles to a hybrid one,” Kaziranga’s Divisional Forest Officer Rohini Ballave Saikia said.

Assam’s choice
Army and paramilitary forces in the militancy-hit Northeast comprising eight States do not use the Ghatak, but the Assam Police does.

On the choice of the weapon, Assam Police chief Mukesh Sahay said, “I cannot be specific about the number, but we received a small consignment a year ago. More are in the pipeline. We procure weapons based on our requirement, which primarily is counter-insurgency. We need long-range and area weapons too.”

Senior police officials, however, said Ghatak tested in a field situation because militancy has ebbed over the last 15 months.

Army officials said the initiative to make the 5.56mm-7.62mm hybrid came from the Ordnance Factory Board. Of the three prototypes made by three ordnance factories, the one developed by Rifle Factory Ishapore cleared all preliminary tests. “It fell short of the Army’s requirement, though,” an officer said, declining to be named.

The Defence Ministry has tendered for multi-calibre rifles, officials said. Among those in contention are Beretta and Colt, the latter making M4 carbines. But the Ishapore factory is keen on upgrading Ghatak.

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy ... 716184.ece

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Feb 2018 04:12

SanjayC, Just today I was reading an article on the death of single shot bolt action rifle due to proliferation of bolt action magazine rifles in US.

Isnt the .315 express rifle for the forest rangers? Maybe some of them should have telescope sights and not all scrapped.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Feb 2018 06:31

Akshay or Deejay The INSAS fires 5.56x45 NATO cartridge. What are INSAS dimensions of barrel length and rifle twist ? And compare to other rifles in the world for same cartridge.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 11 Feb 2018 10:28

Cartridges recovered from rhino kill sites revealed the poachers were using AK-56 rifles, M16 and M4 carbines.

M16 and M4 carbines? Likely dealings with the Naga militants/Naxals, Myanmar groups..

Good that Assam forest Dept. has acquired the INSAS and Ishapore SLRs. Hope they have also got good NVDs

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2018 06:10

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 4421305345 --> VZ.58V assault rifle in service. This variant with metal folding stock designed for paratroopers & vehicle crews. Both VZ.58V and VZ.58P variants are in service, although look similar to AK 47 but it has no interchangeable part not even the magazines.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2018 06:21

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 3524441088 --> Quick opening, discreet, briefcase type, ballistic case carried by #NSG for VIP and persons protection.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 13 Feb 2018 08:43

2nd unarmed man is the one who grabs the protectee and gets him/her out of harms way
This is the inner ring of VIP security

vickyiyer · Post by **vickyiyer** » 13 Feb 2018 19:55

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/governm ... -topscroll

Some good news

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 13 Feb 2018 20:36

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 3524441088 --> Quick opening, discreet, briefcase type, ballistic case carried by #NSG for VIP and persons protection.

Dumb question

:

What is a ballistic case? Is it used as some kind of shield?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Feb 2018 21:14

Yes. Its like a shield.

I don't know why that Shatrukeet posts such photos.

And puts big watermark.

Very moronic.

Why reveal NSG weapons and squad composition?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Feb 2018 21:17

BTW found idiot blocked me.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Feb 2018 21:28

Very positive decision

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... Y7p7I.html