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Small Arms Thread

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Zynda
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Zynda » 19 Oct 2017 02:06

The media is highlighting "failure" of combat helmets against AK-47 rounds which led to two Garuds fatality. I guess this video is appropriate here. Shows effect of an AK-47 round on PASGT type army helmet.



Our Patka helmets offered limited (frontal) protection against 7.67mm round. I don't know if the latest Advanced Combat Helmet (ACH) of US Army offers protection from rifle (5.56 or 7.67mm) rounds...it seems like most combat helmets are not designed to stop rifle rounds.

BTW, Fort Bragg sells surplus stock to US citizens. Found a listing of US ACH for $130...LOL

https://www.fortbraggsurplus.us/Advance ... helmet.htm

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 19 Oct 2017 02:41

even better its been ordered by NSG

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 21 Oct 2017 12:37

Image
OFB 7.62x51 rifle.
Looks better with telescopic butt stock though.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 21 Oct 2017 13:50

FAB Defence AKM upgrade kit in close up.
Image
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Image
Last edited by Thakur_B on 21 Oct 2017 14:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 21 Oct 2017 14:06

Army GQSR compliant helmet and BPJ by DRDO (The ones that have been ordered were given relaxation by the Army)
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 21 Oct 2017 14:07

Thakur_B wrote:Image
OFB 7.62x51 rifle.
Looks better with telescopic butt stock though.



I have always wondered about the trigger placement for the grande launcher.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 21 Oct 2017 14:11

Some modern sights have begun to trickle down.

Insas excalibur with what appears to be some sort of compact passive night vision sight.

Image
Image

INSAS Excalibur remains the best looking version till date. Just needed full length rail on top.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 21 Oct 2017 16:50

Thakur_B wrote:OFB 7.62x51 rifle.
Looks better with telescopic butt stock though.


The skeleton stock looks flimsy, especially for a full battle rifle round’s recoil. Agree that the telescoping stock looks much better, but I’d happily take a sturdy wood stock from whatever tree grows the fastest in India with acceptable wood characteristics.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 22 Oct 2017 10:09

Old picture: INSAS in service with Swaziland armed forces.

Image

-------------------------------------------
Courtesy Shaitan@DFI

Image
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FIRST PICTURES OF BEL TRINETRA MRWS (MULTI PURPOSE REFLEX WEAPON SIGHT)

Trinetra is Indian designed reflex sight which is a parallax free , compact , light weight and rugged weapons sight for instant target acquisition.
A highly precise reticule , superimposed on the target scene , acts as an aim point for accurate firing. Fired has got the advantage of keeping both eyes open , during firing with Trinetra
To further enhance the capabilities of soldier and wept during CQB or Night, Trinetra is equipped with in built visible (red) and invisible (IR) laser spot designator which makes Trinetra an all in one versatile sight for all possible combat scenarios.

• Fast target acquisition
• Accurate aiming with precise reticule
• Large window for easy ops
• Visible laser spot designator
• Invisible laser spot designator
• LDR for auto intensity control
• Zeroing mechanism
• Brightness adjustment
• Low light / Night modes
• Facilitates both eyes shooting.


IRDE-DRDO developed, BEL produced

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 22 Oct 2017 10:10

Insas with paintjob.
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 23 Oct 2017 07:25

Old FALs being put to good use.
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 31 Oct 2017 04:41

X-posting....

Vips wrote:CRPF approves Trichy Assault Rifle after tests.

The Trichy Assault Rifle (TAF) designed in-house at Ordnance Factory, Tiruchi (OFT), and developed to match specifications of AK47 has passed the quality test for use by paramilitary forces, sources in the OFT said here on Friday.

The approval of the weapon by the CRPF in New Delhi has brought immense relief to OFT employees.
Acceptance of TAF by paramilitary and military forces has been a long-pending demand of the employee unions who were prepared to rectify the shortcomings pointed out by the Army. :?:

The first lot of TAF was handed over to the Chhattisgarh police earlier this year. Thereafter, OFT received orders for AK-47 from police departments from a few States that were fighting insurgency, and production and assembly lines were established for mass production. However, employee unions were keen on having a steady stream of supply of the weapon to CRPF and other elite forces, including CISF and BSF. :?:

It was because the State governments that had procured the weapon for their police forces had problems with making payments, according to C. Srikumar, general secretary, All India Defence Employees Federation (AIDEF).

Approval of the weapon by paramilitary forces will, in all probability, pave the way for its supply to the Army as well, Mr. Srikumar pointed out.

Approval of TAF is a shot in the arm for the employee unions that had been expressing concern over the decline in manpower at the OFT. Manpower had declined to around 2,000 from about 3,500 10 years ago (welcome development) , V.Balachandran, national executive member of the AIDEF, said.

The development comes in the backdrop of AIDEF and two other employee unions: INDWF and BPMS which together represent the cause of four lakh employees in 41 ordnance factories in the country :shock: , opposing import of AK-47 rifle, and assailing the Centre's move for introduction of public-private-partnership model.

The OFT had to upgrade its product offerings a few years ago in the wake of the shift of Army and Central armed paramilitary forces towards 7.62 mm calibre rifles with automatic firing, so as to incapacitate and kill the enemy in counter-insurgency operations with higher probability. The TAF was manufactured in three variants — fixed butt, side foldable butt and under folding.

It can be fired in single shot, automatic and burst fire mode. In automatic mode, it fires 600 rounds per minute, as per the technical specification
.


Odd article claims credit for the trade unions more than the designers or the factory.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby sarabpal.s » 31 Oct 2017 08:34

It was TAF which rejected earlier?due to jamming issue.
Article more about a OFB labour union than actual pruduct and selling point.. lobbying

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby SaiK » 31 Oct 2017 09:15

ORSIS T-5000 snipers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb6glBHBfgs

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 327886.cms

Barrett .50, AWM and CheyTac intervention could be on the table

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 31 Oct 2017 20:47

sarabpal.s wrote:It was TAF which rejected earlier?due to jamming issue.
Article more about a OFB labour union than actual pruduct and selling point.. lobbying


I don't know how the TAF acronym came about. Sounds like a misprint. Anyhow, this is not the same TAR, rather it's a baseline AKM, more or less similar to Arsenal AKM,. The visual cue to differentiate is the glas block, which is perpendicular rather than slanted like regular AKM. The visual cue for ghatak is the trigger group borrowed from insas.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 05 Nov 2017 05:07

Latest from Ajai Shukla.

Infantry to get foreign rifles, others to get 'made in India'

The army’s highest levels have arrived at a vital decision that could open the doors to buying new rifles for the entire army, while remaining within a strained procurement budget. The decision is to equip infantry soldiers with a world-class assault rifle, while non-infantry soldiers would get a cheaper, less effective, indigenous rifle. Earlier, the army had planned to procure some 800,000 state-of-the-art assault rifles from the global market, each costing about Rs 200,000. That would have cost about Rs 16,000 crore — significantly more than what the army can ...


The rest is premium content that I cannot access. The full story hads not shown up on Broadsword yet.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 05 Nov 2017 07:56

Kakkaji wrote:Latest from Ajai Shukla.

Infantry to get foreign rifles, others to get 'made in India'

The army’s highest levels have arrived at a vital decision that could open the doors to buying new rifles for the entire army, while remaining within a strained procurement budget. The decision is to equip infantry soldiers with a world-class assault rifle, while non-infantry soldiers would get a cheaper, less effective, indigenous rifle. Earlier, the army had planned to procure some 800,000 state-of-the-art assault rifles from the global market, each costing about Rs 200,000. That would have cost about Rs 16,000 crore — significantly more than what the army can ...


The rest is premium content that I cannot access. The full story hads not shown up on Broadsword yet.


What will the imported firearm do that the Insas cannot do?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 05 Nov 2017 08:18

Pratyush wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:Latest from Ajai Shukla.

Infantry to get foreign rifles, others to get 'made in India'



The rest is premium content that I cannot access. The full story hads not shown up on Broadsword yet.


What will the imported firearm do that the Insas cannot do?


I would look at this "news" from the viewpoint of a reporter who needs to make money and good money at that.

When he says "The army's highest levels have reached a decision" he is clearly bullshitting. The mention of 800,000 imports is also bullshit IMO (I will come to that later) but it is sure to make a dozen small arms manufacturers drool. What they will do is contac Shukla via FB/Twitter/email and employ him to meet govt officials. They will pay him air fares and hotel expenses to wine and dine Def Min babus and retired army types with contacts.

So I believe that such reports must never be taken seriously. Read and discard. Nowadays most reports are either farts or scents in the wind. They waft towards you and waft away. Not solid reality

The other point is - we have a 1.2 mil man army and 800,000 of them are infantry - going to carry that weapon. That sounds like a load of crock to me. T

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 05 Nov 2017 12:38

shiv wrote:When he says "The army's highest levels have reached a decision" he is clearly bullshitting.

So I believe that such reports must never be taken seriously. Read and discard. Nowadays most reports are either farts or scents in the wind. They waft towards you and waft away. Not solid reality

The other point is - we have a 1.2 mil man army and 800,000 of them are infantry - going to carry that weapon. That sounds like a load of crock to me. T

The report quotes the Army chief verbatim.

Now, army chief General Bipin Rawat has decided to buy only 250,000 assault rifles from the international market, and issue them only to combat infantrymen – the frontline foot soldiers who are directly in contact with the enemy.

“My thinking is: Since a state-of-the-art assault rifle will cost about Rs 200,000 each in the global market, let us issue these only to frontline infantry soldiers who confront the enemy armed only with their rifles,” Rawat told Business Standard. “Let us provide a cheaper indigenous option to other soldiers, for whom the rifle is not a primary weapon,” he added.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 05 Nov 2017 13:00

Fine. Wake me up when it happens and someone tell me the name of the rifle they are importing...

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 05 Nov 2017 14:36

Ace = insas 1c design
Galil = insas 7.62x51 design
Mciws = hk 416
Ghatak = AKM
Tavor = bullpub INSAS never adopted by Army

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 05 Nov 2017 19:12

Stupid question:

Is Ghatak 7.62mm or 5.56mm?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 05 Nov 2017 19:17

Kakkaji wrote:Is Ghatak 7.62mm or 5.56mm?


7.62x39mm

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 05 Nov 2017 19:29

Thanks

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 05 Nov 2017 22:45

Shulka's piece is now on his blog and appears to be quite thorough.... The only relief is that the majority of rifles are likely to be either the 1c or the ghatak. It would have been a colossal waste if the 1c in particular had been abandoned.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 05 Nov 2017 23:43

Kakkaji wrote:Latest from Ajai Shukla.

Infantry to get foreign rifles, others to get 'made in India'

The rest is premium content that I cannot access. The full story hads not shown up on Broadsword yet.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2017/11/ ... thers.html

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Nov 2017 01:01

From the Shukla story:

The chief explains the army has evaluated two different weapons philosophies. The assault rifle it has chosen for the infantry is a weapon optimised for conventional war, with a longer range and a larger bullet that kills or completely incapacitates the enemy soldiers that it strikes. It is also equipped with a night vision sight. The second type of weapon, which will arm non-infantry units, is optimised for counter-insurgency operations, being lighter and with a smaller bullet that a soldier can carry in larger numbers.


Isn't that backwards? I thought the CI operations against terrorists require the heavier calibre bullet to kill or incapacitate. :-?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Khalsa » 06 Nov 2017 04:48

Kakkaji wrote:From the Shukla story:

The chief explains the army has evaluated two different weapons philosophies. The assault rifle it has chosen for the infantry is a weapon optimised for conventional war, with a longer range and a larger bullet that kills or completely incapacitates the enemy soldiers that it strikes. It is also equipped with a night vision sight. The second type of weapon, which will arm non-infantry units, is optimised for counter-insurgency operations, being lighter and with a smaller bullet that a soldier can carry in larger numbers.


Isn't that backwards? I thought the CI operations against terrorists require the heavier calibre bullet to kill or incapacitate. :-?


No, the theory went that 5.56 would not kill but injure and therefore you took out 3 people away from the frontline.
The Injured + The other 2 fully combat capable soldiers would carry him back to the unit firebase from where he would be transported away.

It was a Western theory and both India and United States switched or wanted the 7.62 in Kashmir and Afghanistan respectively but a Jihadi was not interested in evacuating his injured buddy for the following reasons.
1. The injured buddy was actually high on narcotics and had not realised that he was injured and was now actually screaming wild and rushing the ordinary soldier firing at him and therefore appearing of demonic strength.
2. There was no jihadi regimental firebase to evacuate to
3. There was no ambulance at the jihadi regimental firebase
4. There is no evacuation mentality

You need to kill the Jihadi as living in the terrain 24/7 they are actually more nimble and fitter than the average soldier (Kashmir or Afghanistan) and can outrun or outwalk the soldiers who are also carrying a heavier load and treading slowly to be wary of ambushes.

Therefore the 7.62 wins.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Nov 2017 04:53

"Therefore the 7.62 wins."

Yes, but Shukla's story say the plans are the opposite; that the army does not want to provide the imported 7.62mm rifles to the CI units like RR.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 06 Nov 2017 07:29

Kakkaji wrote:Stupid question:

I have an even more stupid question.

The army chief is reported to have said (I did not hear him say it) that IA infantry, numbering 2.5 lakhs are going to get an imported assault rifle, while other small arms carrying soldiers will get an Indian made unit. This statement suggests 2 things:

1. That the army chief is already aware of some imported rifle that is better than any Indian one
2. That the army chief knows that some imported assault rifle is going to be better than any Indian one in 50 deg C dry desert as well as 45 deg moist jungle and -50 deg heights

There are two alternative conclusions that can stem from this
A. Army chief has been bought off by phoren companies
or
B. Journalist is misreporting army chief's words

I am stupid and a blind forces bhakt and opponent of journalistic FOE. I choose option 2. Wise people may know the truth.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Austin » 06 Nov 2017 14:23

If the Chief thinks INSAS is good for 550,000 army soldiers why cant an upscale 7.62 INSAS or some variant of it cant be good for Infantary , Unless INSAS does exceptionally well for 5.52 and does equally bad for 7.62 class weapon for Infantary.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 06 Nov 2017 14:41

^^Q is did the army chief really say what was reported? Exactly the same wordings are used in multiple reports. Obviously the source is just one and we don't know exactly what the army chief said. We are reading what some journo reported using wordings of his choice probably based on the choice of his paymaster. That is all journalists are worth in general.. as far as it gets to earn them the next dolah

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby negi » 06 Nov 2017 15:12

Things are mucky because following is the timeline of events

We were primarily using 7.62*51 mm chambered SLR until the INSAS came in late 90s as our battle rifle (aside from LEE Enfield )
In 2011 after about a decade of INSAS usage and realising AKM was better suited in a CI we floated a tender for a modular rifle platform that could fire both types of cardtidge with a simple barrel change .
We then retracted the tender in 2015 despite running long trials of foreign rifles (probably due to regime change ?)
Then recently in 2016 a new tender was opened for specifically a rifle chambered for 7.62*51 mm :mrgreen:

This surely is a cluster fck :)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tsarkar » 06 Nov 2017 15:30

negi wrote:Things are mucky because following is the timeline of events

We were using only 7.62*51 mm chambered SLR until the INSAS came in late 90s.
In 2011 after about a decade of INSAS usage and realising AKM was better suited in a CI we floated a tender for a module rifle platform that could fire both types of cardtidge with a simple barrel change .
We then retracted the tender in 2015 after trails of foreign rifles (probably due to regime change ?)
Then recently in 2016 a new tender was opened for specifically a rifle chambered for 7.62*51 mm .

This surely is a cluster fck :)


The gap comes from the war IA wants to fight and the war IA has to fight.

The move to 5.56 in the 80's was because both IA & PA were planning to fight set piece battles like NATO & Warsaw Pact. Hence lighter ammo was preferred for better ammunition load. Additional firepower would be available via T-72, BMP-2 & Bofors. This was the war IA wanted to fight.

Instead IA got Sri Lanka with IPKF having insufficient manpower to dominate the jungles and LTTE extremely proficient in jungle warfare, Punjab & J&K, where the rugged AK was much more suitable.

INSAS was supposed to be a world class weapon with AK cost using L1 materials, tooling and without investment in skilling OFB workers. Its like wanting to build an IIT with rural primary school teachers and infrastructure. The graduates of such an institution was INSAS with its numerous quality, design & manufacturing issues.

The multi-caliber rifle too represents a utopian weapon. Problem with multi-caliber weapon - in addition to expense - is that its 5.56 version will be heavier than than a purpose designed 5.56 mm rifle. This is the reason why this RFP was scrapped.

So the final workaround is that for those troops fighting a conventional set piece battle would get a 7.62 x 51 mm or 5.56 x 45 mm rifle while those in COIN would get a 7.62 x 39 mm.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby negi » 06 Nov 2017 16:27

^ That's a defensive argument but I do not wish to argue simply because it won't add any value what is done is done; my idea behind making that post was to draw attention to the situation we are creating when suddenly one day we might find ourselves running low on these necessary items and will then have no time to even conduct a trial and would have no choice but spend 4x the MRP amount on the same item at the last moment like that desperate guy who goes out to buy a that extra bottle of old monk past midnight. We did the same when we adopted INSAS in numbers as we did not build the capacity to produce 5.56 mm ammo in required numbers we even bought these rounds from IMI in bulk ; we seem to have not learnt anything from our past.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vickyiyer » 06 Nov 2017 17:20

shiv wrote:
Pratyush wrote:
What will the imported firearm do that the Insas cannot do?


I would look at this "news" from the viewpoint of a reporter who needs to make money and good money at that.

When he says "The army's highest levels have reached a decision" he is clearly bullshitting. The mention of 800,000 imports is also bullshit IMO (I will come to that later) but it is sure to make a dozen small arms manufacturers drool. What they will do is contac Shukla via FB/Twitter/email and employ him to meet govt officials. They will pay him air fares and hotel expenses to wine and dine Def Min babus and retired army types with contacts.

So I believe that such reports must never be taken seriously. Read and discard. Nowadays most reports are either farts or scents in the wind. They waft towards you and waft away. Not solid reality

The other point is - we have a 1.2 mil man army and 800,000 of them are infantry - going to carry that weapon. That sounds like a load of crock to me. T

Sir I doubt Infantry is 800000, there are roughly 350 infantry battalions in the Indian Army. each of the infantry battalion has approx 700 people. Give or take 100, depending on the equipment. roughly 350*700=2,45,000 to 300,000 Infantry soldiers. All of them do not carry an assault rifle. Officers/JCO etc. so 200,000 seems to the right number to equip the infantry solider.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 06 Nov 2017 18:57

vickyiyer wrote:
shiv wrote:The other point is - we have a 1.2 mil man army and 800,000 of them are infantry - going to carry that weapon. That sounds like a load of crock to me.

Sir I doubt Infantry is 800000.

Yes that is what I said in my post

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 06 Nov 2017 19:00

How does the army chief know that some foreign rifle will meet the requirement? Does he "appear to know" only because some reporter chose to report his words that way? I do not trust the media one bit.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Nov 2017 23:07

shiv wrote:How does the army chief know that some foreign rifle will meet the requirement?


Hakeem Saheb:

The army chief knows, because he believes in the first axiom of Indian procurement (military or otherwise):

"The worst imported maal is better than the best desi maal." :)

Jokes apart, I think the Army must have asked for 100% imported rifles, the GoI must have said "no money" and then, using the great Indian negotiation/ conflict resolution mechanism of "50/50 kar lo yaar" :wink: , they might have arrived at this hybrid solution.

So, assuming that Shukla's report is correctly indicating the nature of the compromise that has been reached, here is what I hope is the solution they come up with:

1. 200,000 super-duper phoren rifles, 7.62x51, for the front-line infantry facing Pakistan and China. Hopefully 10% off-the-shelf and rest screwdrivered-in-India.

2. Remaining 600,000 rifles for other roles in the army - INSAS 1C (5.56mm)

3. 50,000 Ghatak 7.62x39 for the units in CI roles in J&K and elsewhere.

4. JVPC personal carbines for the officers.

2, 3, and 4 can be orderd immediately. 1 has to go through the whole 11 step process, and BRF can spend 500 pages and two years discussing it through the 11 steps and after. :wink:

If this works, I think the GoI may impose similar desi/ import hybrid solutions for the SEF, LUH, and other purchases also. Keep both the forces and 'Make in India' happy.

JMHO and totally out of my musharraf

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Khalsa » 07 Nov 2017 00:21

Kakkaji wrote:"Therefore the 7.62 wins."

Yes, but Shukla's story say the plans are the opposite; that the army does not want to provide the imported 7.62mm rifles to the CI units like RR.


Correct, I believe the RR and CI units will be seen in a different light just like the Paras for the Tavors.
There is merit in using the AKs in CI role at the moment.


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