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Small Arms Thread

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Aditya G
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya G » 07 Nov 2017 01:22

Why cant we simply standardize onto 762x39 cartridge as standard for conventional wars as well? Whats with the love for 762x51?

A reason for USArmy to seek 762x51 were long engagement ranges observed in A'stan - which may not happen elsewhere in the world incl Kashmir imho

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 07 Nov 2017 01:49

vaibhav.n wrote:
srin wrote:One data point if anyone has: how many SLR rounds did a soldier carry before Insas ? And how many INSAS rounds does he carry now ?


It has remained the same since the 70's, each rifleman in an infantry section carries 80 rounds in 4 mags, 2 fragmentation grenades and 1 LMG magazine.

Any idea why this wasn't changed? The Army knew very well that the change in caliber would mean advantages as well as disadvantages. With this decision they nullified one of the principal advantages of the lower caliber (being able to carry more ammo because of lower weight). The decision to stick with 20 round magazines would be a fallout of not increasing the ammo carried I guess.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 07 Nov 2017 08:09

Holy Guacamole -- the "indigenous rifle" is "cheap" @Rs 50,000 (~$770)? And you want to pay Rs 200,000 (~$3,000) a piece for an imported rifle? What world do these guys live in?

Even the FN charges the US government ~$500 per M4, with all of Pentagon's waste and much higher labor costs in the US. IIRC I read somewhere here that India bought M46 130mm artillery in 1990s for $2,500 a piece. The first AKMs were sold to India $75 a piece in mid 1980s (high-quality Soviet-builds, not the current Bulgarian plastics); CZ-75s (one of the best pistols ever made) were sold to individual Indian Armoured Corps officers and Indian Customs officers for <$20 a piece.

For pete's sake -- it is a bloody assault rifle, not rocket engines for intergalactic space flight. Any decent bicycle manufacturer probably has all the machinery and skilled workforce to make a reasonably functional rifle.

Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 07 Nov 2017 11:19

Aditya G wrote:Why cant we simply standardize onto 762x39 cartridge as standard for conventional wars as well? Whats with the love for 762x51?

A reason for USArmy to seek 762x51 were long engagement ranges observed in A'stan - which may not happen elsewhere in the world incl Kashmir imho


Poor range, poor ballistics at ranges. There's a reason Russians too abandoned it for general duty.

Aditya_V
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Nov 2017 11:32

Thakur_B wrote:
Aditya G wrote:Why cant we simply standardize onto 762x39 cartridge as standard for conventional wars as well? Whats with the love for 762x51?

A reason for USArmy to seek 762x51 were long engagement ranges observed in A'stan - which may not happen elsewhere in the world incl Kashmir imho


Poor range, poor ballistics at ranges. There's a reason Russians too abandoned it for general duty.


In the Thar Desert, Rann of Kutch and LOC north of Zoji La and much of the Tibet border where vegetation is sparse our engagement ranges will be long, in a conventional war the 7.62*39 will be a handicap. It is only in Coin operations in residential neighbourhoods or Jungles areas of Kashmir/ NE the 7.62*39 is the best.

Given our varied border terrain, it seems feasible that we need 2 rifles per soldier based on posting, 7.62*39 in jungle, thickly populated areas, 7.62*51 in High altitude and Desert areas.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 07 Nov 2017 15:43

The whole attempt seems to be to find some rationale to justify imports.

The cost of INSAS 30,000 rupees. Overhead is 50% + profit, hence actual cost around 12,000. Marginal cost may be only 5,000
Last edited by Gyan on 07 Nov 2017 17:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2017 17:47

Thakur_B wrote:
Poor range, poor ballistics at ranges. There's a reason Russians too abandoned it for general duty.

What does the US use?
What do Russian use?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby abhik » 07 Nov 2017 17:48

US Army has dropped it's plan to upgun it's infantry to 7.62*51(at least for the moment). I don't think anyone else is trying to move to 7.62*51.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 07 Nov 2017 17:57

Russians never abandoned 7.62x39. They supplement by adequate number of DMR Dragnov. Which is the policy being adopted by USA through refurbished M14, SR25, SCAR-H, G28, even scoped M16s. We just need to put back around 50,000 SLRs into action or INSAS 7.62x51 equipped with scopes by giving them to TWO soldiers per Section of TEN. Even INSAS LMG equipped with scopes can be used as DMRs.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 08 Nov 2017 04:16

Gyan wrote:Russians never abandoned 7.62x39. They supplement by adequate number of DMR Dragnov. Which is the policy being adopted by USA through refurbished M14, SR25, SCAR-H, G28, even scoped M16s. We just need to put back around 50,000 SLRs into action or INSAS 7.62x51 equipped with scopes by giving them to TWO soldiers per Section of TEN. Even INSAS LMG equipped with scopes can be used as DMRs.

The Russians switched to the 5.45x39mm round used in the AK-74 in the mid to late 70's.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 08 Nov 2017 08:12

https://youtu.be/uzahVVV01Z4

Link discribing the new prospective German assault rifle designed by Rhinemettal and styr. It is a modular multi caliber weapon. It will be perfect fit for the futuristic multi caliber rifles sought by the army sometime ago.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 08 Nov 2017 08:28

Pratyush wrote:https://youtu.be/uzahVVV01Z4

Link discribing the new prospective German assault rifle designed by Rhinemettal and styr. It is a modular multi caliber weapon. It will be perfect fit for the futuristic multi caliber rifles sought by the army sometime ago.

Will it work at 55 deg C in Thar? Or at -50 in Siachen?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 08 Nov 2017 09:13

Saar please don't ask any questions that cannot be answered by an imported products. But will have to be answered by a domestic design before it is accepted.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 08 Nov 2017 17:26

Image

Insas Excalibur Mk1 in service with Manipur Police with a 30 round magazine and OFB sight. You can tell it is Excalibur by looking at the Gas block (the gas regulator moved backwards on the upper handguard). Interestingly the furniture on this later version of excalibur is different from the standard excalibur furniture and more in line with INSAS 1B1 furniture.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 08 Nov 2017 17:30

Image

Mk1c from Ajai Shukla's blog.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 08 Nov 2017 18:22

Breakdown of Patka Helmet.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Patka helmet dissected for better understanding ..

Source : http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/world-steel-helmets/indian-patka-helmet-safety-head-gear-659856/

shiv
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 08 Nov 2017 20:36

Great info Thakur_B

ramana
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 08 Nov 2017 22:56

Thakur_B, The beige is the shield and the black is the impact cushion?
All encased in the camouflage wrapper.

Is the beige metal or Kevlar?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Shameek » 09 Nov 2017 00:00

Reading through the post, the beige is the 'phantom steel' band encased in polyethylene foam. The poster says this is an older design and the newer ones have Kevlar. There is also an optional insert at the top for added protection.

Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 09 Nov 2017 09:51

Gyan wrote:Russians never abandoned 7.62x39. They supplement by adequate number of DMR Dragnov. Which is the policy being adopted by USA through refurbished M14, SR25, SCAR-H, G28, even scoped M16s. We just need to put back around 50,000 SLRs into action or INSAS 7.62x51 equipped with scopes by giving them to TWO soldiers per Section of TEN. Even INSAS LMG equipped with scopes can be used as DMRs.


Do you even read what you type? No wonder you unleash a barrage of low quality posts on this forum. Russian and most of Warsaw Pact countries shifted to 5.45x39 in seventies with Ak-74 being the standard issue.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby deejay » 09 Nov 2017 09:58

Thakur_B thank you for the pics and the link. There are interesting comments on the thread and they caught my attention.

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/world-steel-helmets/indian-patka-helmet-safety-head-gear-659856/

cammobunker wrote: Oh, very nice catch indeed! Those are REALLY hard to come by, being current issue (although I understand they are actually coming out in Kevlar now). It's a good bet the Indian Army will use them till the 2030's or so...being the IA and all, they throw nothing away. Last I looked some units were still using FALS and Patt. 37 webbing. That looks mint condition, too. Nice one!


Mark K wrote:Thank you for the reply and yes you are correct they are indeed now being manufactured out of Kevlar and yes these are currently being used by the Indian Army and para organizations alike and are very probaby re-used over and over again and re-paired as needed and re-issued ...

Regards Mark

Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 14 Nov 2017 10:03

shiv wrote:
Pratyush wrote:https://youtu.be/uzahVVV01Z4

Link discribing the new prospective German assault rifle designed by Rhinemettal and styr. It is a modular multi caliber weapon. It will be perfect fit for the futuristic multi caliber rifles sought by the army sometime ago.

Will it work at 55 deg C in Thar? Or at -50 in Siachen?


Most likely, it will. Rs 555 is conventional layout version of Steyr f88, a rifle much ahead of its time. F88 has been used for decades by Australia, Austria and Malaysia and has essentially set the benchmarks for what a modern rifle is supposed to be. Even our Paras used F88 for a while. Companies like Steyr, HK, Kalashnikov, Sig and Fn, to put it mildly, do not make crap. Hell, even companies like IWi, Beretta and Bren lack finesse when compared to them. I am particularly a fan of Russia's no nonsense approach. They are the leaders in pushing the boundaries of small arms design, testing them by induction in limited numbers and then adopting whatever works the best in terms of price and performance, ensuring that experimental designs are perfected in field.

The German rifle competition is a fairly interesting one. On one hand in Steyr with Rs 556 and on another there is HK with Hk433. Now the Hk 433 is a further evolution of the G36, where they have discarded polymer for metal, thus addressing accuracy issues raised on intensive use of G36. If the Indian army goes for global procurement for both 7.62 nato and 5.56 nato weapon, HK433 family shall be the one to look out for.
Last edited by Thakur_B on 14 Nov 2017 17:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karthik S » 14 Nov 2017 10:43

Image

Gurus, why do Ak-47s have that broken part at the tip of the barrel? All other guns have complete cylindrical/circular end, but AK's looks broken.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Nov 2017 11:06

Not broken but to let gases out from recoil, otherwise it has uncontrollable recoil in auto mode. Most7.62*51 rifles don't have full auto mode and recoil from 5.56 is controllable. If the end is not chipped the rifle tend to lift upwards and sideways in auto mode

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karthik S » 14 Nov 2017 11:11

Thanks Aditya.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 14 Nov 2017 17:43

Karthik S wrote:Image

Gurus, why do Ak-47s have that broken part at the tip of the barrel? All other guns have complete cylindrical/circular end, but AK's looks broken.


Directing gases in a specific direction to balance the muzzle rise. This is a very basic mechanism and some very exotic ones are available in the market.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 15 Nov 2017 02:08

Aditya_V wrote:Not broken but to let gases out from recoil, otherwise it has uncontrollable recoil in auto mode. Most7.62*51 rifles don't have full auto mode and recoil from 5.56 is controllable. If the end is not chipped the rifle tend to lift upwards and sideways in auto mode



The US WWII Browning Automatic Rifle (their squad LMG) used to be fired sideways due to the barrel propensity to lift!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 15 Nov 2017 11:11

Thakur_B wrote:
Gyan wrote:Russians never abandoned 7.62x39. They supplement by adequate number of DMR Dragnov. Which is the policy being adopted by USA through refurbished M14, SR25, SCAR-H, G28, even scoped M16s. We just need to put back around 50,000 SLRs into action or INSAS 7.62x51 equipped with scopes by giving them to TWO soldiers per Section of TEN. Even INSAS LMG equipped with scopes can be used as DMRs.


Do you even read what you type? No wonder you unleash a barrage of low quality posts on this forum. Russian and most of Warsaw Pact countries shifted to 5.45x39 in seventies with Ak-74 being the standard issue.


You are the expert of everything under the Sun & in love with yourself & your posts. I hardly make more than one post a day & you find it a barrage. Perhaps it effects your agenda?[Deleted] The transition to 5.45×39 failed or was discontinued as it did not bring about adequate benefits compared to mass produced & in use 7.62x39. In some Arms it was reversed. 5.45x39 Saw lot of action in Afghanistan but way less than 7.62x39. And 5.45x39 was introduced in bulk even in Afghanistan only in early 1980s when its production ramped up not in 70s.
Last edited by ramana on 16 Nov 2017 00:49, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited. No name calling. ramana


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