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Small Arms Thread

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Nick_S » 08 Dec 2016 19:48

Army hunts for new sniper rifle to replace Russian Dragunov
By Manu Pubby,

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 863126.cms

Proposals have been invited from global manufacturers to present modern sniper rifles that can take down targets at a range of 1200 metres with highly accurate 8.6 mm bullets – a new standard which has much more stopping power than the 7.62 mm rounds being used at present.

In a request for information, the Army has spelt out its need for over 5,000 new sniper rifles — to be assigned to infantry units that are primarily stationed along the border — and the specifications mean that these would have 50% more range than the currently used Russian Dragunov rifles.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 08 Dec 2016 20:13

Sako should have this pretty much in the bag.

Their 338 lapua TRG has been in testing since ages with IA.

MARCOS also got themselves the 7.62 Sako recently.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bart S » 09 Dec 2016 02:33

The 338 lapua is an awesome round and Sako makes good rifles, but how is that a replacement for a Dragunov? The latter is more of a DMR whereas the former is a high-power long range precision sniping system (with all the mobility limitation that it entails). They are two separate things and it would be good to have more of both.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 09 Dec 2016 02:55

vaibhav.n wrote:Sako should have this pretty much in the bag.

Their 338 lapua TRG has been in testing since ages with IA.

MARCOS also got themselves the 7.62 Sako recently.

AWSM? Not very likely? Sure it retails for a higher price but on a bulk order of this size AW should have a greater incentive to cut costs.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Dec 2016 12:16

Why not more Vidvanshak, surely order more and you can make lighter rifles. Well Indian private Industry not allowed to make Firearms but allow us to buy firearms from foreign private players- wah.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bheeshma » 09 Dec 2016 12:50

Vidhwanshak is already in service but it is really big and heavy at 1.7 m and 25 kg. Its an AMR with range of 1.8 km and needs 2 persons to man it.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 09 Dec 2016 21:46

Viv S wrote:AWSM? Not very likely? Sure it retails for a higher price but on a bulk order of this size AW should have a greater incentive to cut costs.


Accuracy International sure has some pricey kit. Sako is not far behind. Their M10 rifle plus setup retails at around 12k $. Both have guarantees for a 1 MoA rifle out of the box. Both are better suited for SF duties.

Honestly there would be the usual gang from the SOCOM PSR contract including Barrett which imo would be a more affordable choice. The IA officers would have seen Model 98B's with NSG service probably gotten some trigger time too.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 11 Dec 2016 02:37

vaibhav.n wrote:
Viv S wrote:AWSM? Not very likely? Sure it retails for a higher price but on a bulk order of this size AW should have a greater incentive to cut costs.


Accuracy International sure has some pricey kit. Sako is not far behind. Their M10 rifle plus setup retails at around 12k $. Both have guarantees for a 1 MoA rifle out of the box. Both are better suited for SF duties.

Honestly there would be the usual gang from the SOCOM PSR contract including Barrett which imo would be a more affordable choice. The IA officers would have seen Model 98B's with NSG service probably gotten some trigger time too.

Actually Sako guarantees every rifle they make shoots 1 MOA or less at 100 yards, even their standard hunting rifles available for < $750. Same with their brand mates , Tikka. Quite a few other manufacturers (Savage, Weatherby, Remington etc.) shoot like this for some of their hunting rifles as well, many retailing for under $1000. When it comes to sniper rifles, Accuracy International and Sako's sniper rifle models are guaranteed to be more like 0.5 MOA out of the box. Improvements in metallurgy and machining techniques have made it possible to get sub-MOA accuracy at relatively cheaper prices.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gagan » 11 Dec 2016 03:11

Had DRDO been a private company, they would have quickly capitalized on the Vidhwansak, Excalibur, hell even the INSAS to come up with uber refined, cool looking with use of chi chi mettalurgy equipment.

But one can imagine what probably goes on. Every request for a screw, nut or bold must be forwarded to 3 ministries by standard government main in triplicate onlee :sigh:

Why not use titanium or some such metal hain?
They don't even use that for the LCA !

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rohitvats » 12 Dec 2016 12:58

^^^The above argument is wearing thin. It seems to be trotted out selectively. Basis what orders/demand were various iterations or types of rifles developed by DRDO?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 19 Dec 2016 13:40

Indian Special Forces gear up, Army to move a proposal seeking better weapons

Next time when Indian Special Forces would enter Pakistan or any other country for a surgical strike, Government is working towards making sure that they have the required weapons and equipment to carry out their mission more effectively and smoothly. In this direction, the Army is moving a classified proposal worth around Rs 300 crore to buy new assault rifles, sniper rifles, general purpose machine guns and light weight rocket launchers and night vision devices at a key Defence Ministry meeting planned next week, senior Army sources told Mail Today here.

WHAT IS THE PROPOSAL
As part of the effort to equip and arm the nine Para (Special Forces) battalions, the government is also likely to adopt the Foreign Military Sales route to import more M4A1 automatic rifles from the US. The proposal for equipping the Special Forces and doing away with the shortages faced by the units, the proposal has been prepared by the Additional Director General (Special Forces) in the Military Operations directorate which deals with the units closely at the times of operations. "The old units like the 1, 2, 3, 4, 9, 10 and 21 Para (SF) have adequate rifles and equipment for performing their tasks but the new units such as the 11 and 12 Para (SF) are facing shortages of assault rifles and other equipment. The older units had to dig deep into their reserve equipment to help the new ones," the sources informed.

As per the sources, the Army has plans of buying around 10,000 free-fall parachutes, 1100 personal automatic rifles, 30 sniper rifles, and automatic General Purpose Machine Guns, 24 lightweight rocket launchers, 20 shotguns and 500 pistols each.

"The GPMGs are a must and its requirement was deeply felt in both the surgical strikes in Myanmar and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir for effect. Special Forces are using the Russian Pika Machine Guns which have mostly been captured from terrorists who got them from Afghanistan as the leftovers of the Russian forces there in the 1980s," the sources informed. The Special Forces are also keen on getting new assault rifles as the Israeli Tavors are good but the firepower of the 5.56mm bullets is not that effective and in Indian conditions with the hardcore terrorists operating here, bullets which can cause fatal hits are required. In the presentations to the Government, the Special Forces have even cited examples where the terrorist could manage to escape after being hit by the 5.56mm bullets of security forces.

The rocket launchers sought by the Special Forces are light weight and will be easier to carry inside enemy territory, in case of future strikes against terrorist launchpads. The troops are at present using the Carl Gustaf rocket launchers which were procured long time back by the Army. Automatic grenade launchers are also required by the Special Forces for taking down a group of terrorists or their hideouts during operations by the forces. The Special Forces presently have an outdated version of this equipment which is quite heavy. The Defence Ministry has asked the Army to process the procurement of the equipment for the forces under the fast-track procedure which is provided for in the defence procurement procedure. Under this procedure, the services can bypass several procedures and have to work with the integrated financial advisors for processing their procurement cases after approval from the Defence Ministry at the apex level.

After the September 28 surgical strikes, the defence Ministry has given a go ahead to the three services with a purse of Rs 2,000 crore to buy the equipment and weapon systems which are short in their inventory. The SF operatives belonging to the 4 and 9 Para (SF) deployed in the valley carried out surgical strikes across the Line of Control (LoC).

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 19 Dec 2016 14:11

^^ Dont get the article above. 556 (tavor) is inadequate but we are looking for M-4 via FMS?

Also now we will have only 3 vanilla para battalions left?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 19 Dec 2016 14:28

vaibhav.n wrote:As part of the effort to equip and arm the nine Para (Special Forces) battalions, the government is also likely to adopt the Foreign Military Sales route to import more M4A1 automatic rifles from the US.

and
The Special Forces are also keen on getting new assault rifles as the Israeli Tavors are good but the firepower of the 5.56mm bullets is not that effective and in Indian conditions with the hardcore terrorists operating here, bullets which can cause fatal hits are required.


The M4A1 uses the 5.56 mm cartridges. So would that mean two different types of assualt rifles are being looked at ?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Singha » 19 Dec 2016 14:49

why do super duper IDF troops wear helmets that offer no better protection than the much derided desi patka ? in both the models the ear area is exposed. is going like this khan-certified now and hence kosher?

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 19 Dec 2016 15:48

Singha wrote:why do super duper IDF troops wear helmets that offer no better protection than the much derided desi patka ? in both the models the ear area is exposed. is going like this khan-certified now and hence kosher?

LOL good catch

Here's my take
1. The US has certain legal requirements that are to me met in terms of body protection which they will base partly on experience and partly on what the lawyers representing injured/dead say.
2. Whatever the US does is advertised as "the best in the world" and everyone who reads English or is exposed to American media believe that
3. The Indian Army and IDF have their own experiences that dictate their gear, but no one wants to listen unless it is Khan certified - like gazetted officer's signature being needed

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 19 Dec 2016 17:24

shiv wrote:Here's my take
1. The US has certain legal requirements that are to me met in terms of body protection which they will base partly on experience and partly on what the lawyers representing injured/dead say.
2. Whatever the US does is advertised as "the best in the world" and everyone who reads English or is exposed to American media believe that
3. The Indian Army and IDF have their own experiences that dictate their gear, but no one wants to listen unless it is Khan certified - like gazetted officer's signature being needed

Until WW I, the US & Brits shared the classic 'kettle' type helmet primarily against arty shrapnel (Brodie hats in British parlance). The US Army adopted the M1 'steel pot' helmet (the kind from Vietnam) back during WWII and offering good ear protection. The Brits adopted a similar 'turtle' helmet, also adopted by Commonwealth militaries like India (& Pakistan). As did the Israelis.

In the 1980s, the US moved to PASGT (superficially similar the German WWII Stahlhelm) while the Brits moved to the Mk 6 and the Israelis to a local type similar to the Brit Mk 6. All offer good ear protection.

The helmet type worn by the soldier on the right is a type developed for special forces that value mobility over protection with voice comm as a standard part of their gear. The first time this sort of 'earless' helmet was seen was equipping the US Delta Force in Panama '89 & Mogadishu '93 (black helmets in "Black Hawk Down") - modified Pro-tec helmets popular with skateboarders.

Image

Today, of course, they're widely adopted by SF & CT teams around the world, including the NSG.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 20 Dec 2016 07:37

Image

So the latest American view is that the blast pressure wave on the ears is not as important as it used to be when someone pointed out on BRF that Indian patkas are useless compared to the American helmets that covered the ears and protected them against blast. I recall the other type of US helmet that had a bulge over the ears for earphones inside the helmet which used to sit cockeyed on Indian heads causing anxiety about non TFTAness of Indian soldiers. That is all "old hat" now I guess, pun unintended

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 21 Dec 2016 01:33

Just in time for me to chime in about blast pressure.

The US started deploying three blast gages on troops in Afghanistan and Iraq after noting the head concussion damage to soldiers. The measure was 5 psi overpressure could tear eardrums. So this is between 1 to 5 psi range.

The blast gages are made by a firm Blackbox Biometrics, in upstate New York. The CEO is a professor at Rochester Institute(?).

The blast gages showed that a majority of head concussion damage is occurring while firing rocket propelled arms, Recoilless rifles, artillery which all have shock and blast waves forward and aft of the weapon. RCL was particularly egregious as it is held close to the head while being discharged. IEDs against armored personnel carriers were occasional but cause massive concussion in one blow.
The second fact noted was that its cumulative. IOW the repeated firings of RCL and in confined spaces can cause the concussion damage which is neurological. The number was between 30 to 300. I guess it depended on open air or confined area. And the lower number could be from being near artillery.
Shiv thought this would interest you.

BTW, US Army has discontinued the use of gages as they wanted to monitor the IED concussion and this version of gage is not that sensitive. So they are waiting for a newer version.

ArmenT, Could be useful to dig more into the back blast from different versions of RCL and artillery firings for Indian forces.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby wig » 21 Dec 2016 10:23

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 39686.html

Night sight for handheld arms
In a move that will enhance the war-fighting ability of the Army, almost all handheld weapons will have night-sights, enabling troops to spot a terrorist or enemy during night.
The Army plans Rs21,492 crore project to provide such state-of-the-art night-sighting abilities on Light Machine Guns (36,100); rocket launchers (15,000); Medium Machine Guns (5,000) and another 1,50,000 handheld weapons of various types. In the first tranche, the Army has floated the Request for Information (RFI) and has asked night sights on Light Machine Guns (LMGs). This will soon be followed by the remaining tenders. The Army estimates that a sum of Rs21,492 crore will be spent over the next 4-5 years to have night-sights on such weapons.
Once done, this will give an edge to troops located in terrorism-hit areas. At present, the night-vision device is hand held and not attached to the weapon.
The Army is looking at providing the desired performance across all spectrum of employment in the Indian terrain and climatic conditions. The Army wants these sights mounted on the ‘Picatinny rail’, also known as MIL-STD-1913 rail.
In the past, Army has asked for night sights on the AK-47 assault rifles.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 21 Dec 2016 20:57

shiv wrote:So the latest American view is that the blast pressure wave on the ears is not as important as it used to be

What American view?

when someone pointed out on BRF that Indian patkas are useless compared to the American helmets that covered the ears and protected them against blast.

The patkas aren't useless, but they're still archaic. They're heavy, provide no protection to the dome of the head and very limited shock protection against concussions (from falls and such). The lack of nape coverage is the least of it.

I recall the other type of US helmet that had a bulge over the ears for earphones inside the helmet which used to sit cockeyed on Indian heads causing anxiety about non TFTAness of Indian soldiers. That is all "old hat" now I guess, pun unintended

What bulge? :-?

There's the regular PASGT type helmet

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Which have been adopted by the Paras & Marcos.

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The NSG is equipped with the MKU Mukut with a longer nape.

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Then there's the type in question, which is intended exclusively for SF operators. Modular design, goes with comm systems.

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There are some pics in Indian service particularly the NSG.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Nick_S » 03 Jan 2017 17:13

ET Defence ‏@ETDefence 14m14 minutes ago
Have approved fast track procurement of assault rifles for the special forces

ET Defence ‏@ETDefence 14m14 minutes ago
On new assault rifle for Army, Parrikar says 4 months given to OFB to prove new design. If it doesn't work, will be done under fast track.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jan 2017 22:37


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Indranil » 04 Jan 2017 01:01

Nick_S wrote:ET Defence ‏@ETDefence 14m14 minutes ago
On new assault rifle for Army, Parrikar says 4 months given to OFB to prove new design. If it doesn't work, will be done under fast track.

Like this enormously. Whether one admits it or not, the DPSUs still have majority of the design know how in India. But without a consequence, they don't act. So this ultimatum was required.

For people here who know the latest DPP, does the "penalty" clause apply to DPSUs as well?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jan 2017 21:42

Short-circuiting Carbines procurement for Army, but why not Assault Rifles?
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news/short-circuiting-carbines-procurement-for-army-but-why-not-assault-rifles/

By Lt Gen Prakash Katoch - a retired Lt Gen Special Forces, Indian Army

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 18 Jan 2017 21:53

if this was posted earlier, my apologies.

Ghatak Assault Rifle in-Person Review
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/ghatak-assault-rifle-in-person-review.77639/

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 18 Jan 2017 22:13

RFI hands over indigenous Ghaatak rifle to Kerala Police
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata/rfi-hands-over-indigenous-ghaatak-rifle-to-kerala-police/articleshow/56605569.cms

Rifle Factory Ishapore (RFI) handed over the first Ghaatak rifle to the director general of Kerala Police on Monday at the factory premises in North 24-Parganas. The 7.62 x 39 mm assault rifle has been developed by the factory indigenously for use by the defence, central paramilitary and state police forces. The rifle can fire in single and automatic modes and its magazine has a capacity of 30 rounds. Its rate of fire is 600 rounds per minute and effective range is 300 metres.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakarat » 19 Jan 2017 01:33

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618
Work on OFB's new 7.62 x 51 mm assault rifle is more advanced than people think. It may be headed into testing later this month

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Khalsa » 20 Jan 2017 05:33

Sjha is also reporting that around 200+ Excaliburs have been ordered by the West Bengal Police.
Great news for the Manufacturer.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 21 Jan 2017 10:00

News from the US
After 10-year effort, Army selects new pistol maker
After a long and much-criticized search, the U.S. Army has chosen Sig Sauer to produce its next generation of handgun, eventually replacing the current standard issue sidearm, the Beretta M9 pistol.

“Following a thorough operational test, fielding of the modular handgun is expected to begin in 2017,” the Army said in a statement announcing the decision Thursday.
...
...
Sig Sauer’s P320 pistol is believed to be the model on which the new handgun will be based. The Army is seeking certain modifications that are not being made public.

Sig Sauer was founded in Germany but has a subsidiary located in Exeter, New Hampshire.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Jan 2017 11:41

What ammunition with the new Sig Sauer use the 9mm or legendary .45 caliber round used in Colt 1911 and Tommygun?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 21 Jan 2017 11:51

Capable of both.. in the full size and compact versions

Well 9x19, .357SIG, .40SW, .45ACP

The concealed carry and sub-compact versions primarily allow the 9mm only

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Jan 2017 11:55

Ok so the US Army has gone for Multi caliber pistol, something tells me now the IA will follow suit.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 21 Jan 2017 12:06

no the US Army has Chosen the 9mm version.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 21 Jan 2017 12:08

"Two sources confirmed to Military.com that Sig submitted to the Army .40-caliber and 9mm pistols for consideration. One source said the Army ultimately selected the 9mm version.
"

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017 ... istol.html

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 21 Jan 2017 14:32

The Sig P320 is a modular design, which was one of the US Army's requirements. Funny thing is though the army's process for evaluating pistols took 10 years, the Sig P320 design is only about 2-3 years old. One of my fav. video creators puts his 2 cents in and explains some of the implications of the modular system, regarding full size vs. compact vs. subcompact frames and adjustable grips and ambidextrous safety etc.:


By the way, I guess they'll stay with 9 mm. mainly to stay compatible with NATO.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 24 Jan 2017 14:13

From Today's encounter.

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 07 Feb 2017 07:28

Apparently, OFB had slyly floated an EOI for collaboration on 7.62x51 assault rifle, the last date for which was 31st January.

Qualitative Requirement of 7.62x51mm Assault Rifle
OFB seeks a 7.62x51mm Assault Rifle with adequate lethality to achieve the objective of
‘Shoot to Kill’ with the following board Characteristics:
a) Effective Range: Minimum 500 meters.
b) Lethality: Adequate lethality at ranges up to minimum 500 meters in terms of wound
profile, energy transfer and penetration.
c) Recoil: The recoil should be duly optimized to provide maximum comfort to the firer
and shoot consistently with accuracy.
d) Accuracy: The Rifle should be capable of achieving accuracy better than 3 MoA up to a
range of minimum 500 meters.
e) Reliability: The Rifle shall be reliable in its operation as per international standards
for reliability.
f) Modular design.
g) Capable of fitting and firing of Indian in-service UBGL manufactured by Ordnance
Factory Trichy.
h) Compatibility with all modern sights and accessories and provision for mounting the
same.
i) In terms of design, metallurgy and performance parameters, the Rifle and Sight shall
be ‘State of the Art’ in order to remain relevant for next 25 to 30 years.
j) The Rifle shall be capable of providing the desired performance across all spectrums of
employment in the Indian terrain and climatic conditions.
k) The Rifle shall comply with the laid down MIL standards and other International
Standards in vogue.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 07 Feb 2017 07:29

rkhanna wrote:From Today's encounter.

Image

What ij it?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 07 Feb 2017 09:55

shiv wrote:
rkhanna wrote:From Today's encounter.

Image

What ij it?


Old AKM with aftermarket upgrades. Some indian forms like MKU make aftermarket upgrades for AKM as well as INSAS, though I am yet to come across any image of aftermarket upgraded INSAS in service, though plenty of AKM images have been seen.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 07 Feb 2017 11:24

^^^^^
That's an AK modified with a what appears to be an M-16 style telescoping stock (it doesn't look like a folding AK stock to me at least) and what looks like a pair of picattiny rails attached to the top and bottom. The forward hand grip is attached to the lower rail and there appears to be a couple of optics attached to the top rail, one of which appears to be a red-dot scope and the other looks like a reflex sight.

One more thing is the rivet pattern on the AK makes it appear to be of Chinese manufacture (i.e.) type 56 or a Dera clone of it.


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