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Small Arms Thread

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vaibhav.n
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 06 Apr 2017 17:10

US Army Considers Adopting an Interim Battle Rifle in 7.62 NATO

According to multiple sources, what started out as a directed requirement for a 7.62 NATO Designated Marksmanship Rifle for issue to Infantry Rifle Squads has grown in scope to increase the Basis of Issue to all personnel in Brigade Combat Teams and perhaps beyond. The genesis of this requirement is overmatch. The troops feel like they’re in a street fight with a guy with longer arms. The 7.62x54R cartridge gives the enemy those longer arms.

Consequently, the Army wants to enable the rifleman to accurately engage targets at a further range than the current 5.56mm. Although at this point, I’ll keep that exact exact distance close to the vest. The goal here is to foster a dialogue about the 7.62 requirement in general, and not offer operational specifics.

It’s important to establish right up front that 7.62mm is not the Army’s end goal. The “Interim” component of this capability’s name relies on a plan to eventually adopt one of the 6.5mm family of intermediate calibers. Currently, elements of the Army are evaluating .260, .264 USA and .277 USA. The .260 is commercially available while .264 USA and .277 USA are developments of the Army Marksmanship Unit. Unfortunately, the US Army doesn’t plan to conduct an intermediate caliber study until the early 2020s. That’s why they want to adopt 7.62mm now. The idea is to adopt the Battle Rifle to deal with a newly identified threat with what’s available now, and transition the fleet to an intermediate caliber cartridge, once its selected. Additionally, the transition to this proposed intermediate caliber cartridge is possible from a 7.62 platform. Such a transition is all-but-impossible with the current 5.56 receiver sets.

Obviously, a transition to the heavier 7.62 cartridge means a reduction in the basic load of the Soldier, to just under half of the current 210 rounds. That is a serious consideration; perhaps the most important for Army leaders to contemplate. Obviously, transition to the intermediate caliber cartridge will mean more bullets per Soldier, but there must be continued development of polymer cases or telescoping rounds to take fully realize this increase in lethality.

Other factors to consider are the additional weight and recoil of a 7.62mm Battle Rifle. Let’s face it, the military transitioned from the M14 to the M16 for multiple reasons, and one of those was weight savings. Soldiers are also going to require additional training to take full advantage of the new capability. Increased engagement distances also mean Soldiers will require access to longer marksmanship ranges.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 07 Apr 2017 00:21

vaibhav.n wrote:US Army Considers Adopting an Interim Battle Rifle in 7.62 NATO

According to multiple sources, what started out as a directed requirement for a 7.62 NATO Designated Marksmanship Rifle for issue to Infantry Rifle Squads has grown in scope to increase the Basis of Issue to all personnel in Brigade Combat Teams and perhaps beyond. The genesis of this requirement is overmatch. The troops feel like they’re in a street fight with a guy with longer arms. The 7.62x54R cartridge gives the enemy those longer arms.

Consequently, the Army wants to enable the rifleman to accurately engage targets at a further range than the current 5.56mm. Although at this point, I’ll keep that exact exact distance close to the vest. The goal here is to foster a dialogue about the 7.62 requirement in general, and not offer operational specifics.

It’s important to establish right up front that 7.62mm is not the Army’s end goal. The “Interim” component of this capability’s name relies on a plan to eventually adopt one of the 6.5mm family of intermediate calibers. Currently, elements of the Army are evaluating .260, .264 USA and .277 USA. The .260 is commercially available while .264 USA and .277 USA are developments of the Army Marksmanship Unit. Unfortunately, the US Army doesn’t plan to conduct an intermediate caliber study until the early 2020s. That’s why they want to adopt 7.62mm now. The idea is to adopt the Battle Rifle to deal with a newly identified threat with what’s available now, and transition the fleet to an intermediate caliber cartridge, once its selected. Additionally, the transition to this proposed intermediate caliber cartridge is possible from a 7.62 platform. Such a transition is all-but-impossible with the current 5.56 receiver sets. :?:

Obviously, a transition to the heavier 7.62 cartridge means a reduction in the basic load of the Soldier, to just under half of the current 210 rounds. That is a serious consideration; perhaps the most important for Army leaders to contemplate. Obviously, transition to the intermediate caliber cartridge will mean more bullets per Soldier, but there must be continued development of polymer cases or telescoping rounds to take fully realize this increase in lethality.

Other factors to consider are the additional weight and recoil of a 7.62mm Battle Rifle. Let’s face it, the military transitioned from the M14 to the M16 for multiple reasons, and one of those was weight savings. Soldiers are also going to require additional training to take full advantage of the new capability. Increased engagement distances also mean Soldiers will require access to longer marksmanship ranges.



Looks like they never learn. Iff the opponenet retains the higher caliber then they have to go back again in 2030.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 07 Apr 2017 11:32

" the Soldier, to just under half of the current 210 rounds. "

So an american grunt load out is 6 mags on person and 1 in the rifle. Does anybody know an IA jawan loadout?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 07 Apr 2017 15:40

The standard load for a rifleman is 4 INSAS mags (including rifle) + 1 LMG mag + 2 Frag grenades.

The actual loadout will vary as if he is a part of the rear section in a platoon he may carry additional 84mm RL or 51mm mortar rounds.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 07 Apr 2017 16:49

We should bring back Isapore Fal 7.62x51 with new plastic furniture to replace wood & side mounted sights like Galil

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 09 Apr 2017 20:40

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... s?from=mdr
OFB develops new rifle for army in quick time
NAGPUR: Responding to army's call to get a new high calibre assault rifle, the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has developed a weapon on a fast track basis. In normal course, it takes around a year at least to come up with a new weapon. But the assault rifle was ready in six months. The rifle of 7.62x52 calibre operates on the rotating bolt model, same as the legendary AK-47. However, the OFB gun has a higher calibre compared to AK-47 which is a 7.62x39 rifle.

The guns will be manufactured at Rifle Factory Ishapore (RFI) in West Bengal, said director general of OFB S C Bajpai. He was in city to address the valedictory function of Indian Ordnance Factory Service (IOFS) officers at the National Academy of Defence Production (NADP).

Bajpai said an internal trial of the weapon would be held next month. Thereafter, in May, the rifle would be offered to the project evaluation committee that has members of army too. The user trials by the army are expected this year itself.

Bajpai said in the initial stage it was found the gun had a higher recoil which hampered the comfort of the user. A buffer has been developed through DRDO to bring down the recoil, he said.


INSAS, which was used in the Kargil war, is being replaced and the army wants rifles of 7.62 calibre which have a higher lethality. The 5.56 mm bullet used in INSAS generally does not kill the enemy, instead leaves them injured. The theory is wounding the enemy is more effective in a war as it takes several other soldiers to evacuate the injured, thus reducing the enemy strength. However, in counter insurgency and anti-terror operations, the army prefers a bullet that kills, said an ordnance factory source.


This is the second assault rifle developed by the ordnance factory. The 7.62x39 calibre Ghatak is used by the paramilitary forces. Ordnance Factory Trichi has also independently developed an assault rifle of the same calibre. Trichi rifle works on tilting bolt model which is different from AK-47.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 09 Apr 2017 21:05

^^ Reporters, can't even get the calibre right. 7.62x52 :D :D

I hope the rifle is something manageable in size, weight and recoil. The SIG SG 751 is a good template to go by. The version in the video below is 14" version, but the rifle is available in 13" to 20" barrels.

The operating system and the ergonomics aren't too different from the INSAS. Stamped steel receiver, easier to produce in large numbers. Not too many rails to make the rifle too heavy. The removing top cover template of the AK vintage should be abandoned in favour of receiver/upper template, that makes rifles easier to upgrade/modify.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 09 Apr 2017 21:47

^^Plashtic magazine

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 09 Apr 2017 22:22

They should adopt the layout of HK-417 or SIG for 7.62x51 rifle.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 10 Apr 2017 09:34

Advanced 7.62x51 rounds are also being introduced in the western world. With faster propellants, these rounds permit rifles with shorter barrels between 13-16 inches. Thus new rifles can be shorter lighter & more compact

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 10 Apr 2017 09:59

Gyan wrote:Advanced 7.62x51 rounds are also being introduced in the western world. With faster propellants, these rounds permit rifles with shorter barrels between 13-16 inches. Thus new rifles can be shorter lighter & more compact

Every one of these things has a drawback and a compromise must be reached. More propellant with shorter barrel usually mean big muzzle flash that blinds the shooter at night and is also more easily visible to an enemy. Also a loud bang.

Shorter barrel often also means loss of accuracy.

There is no ideal.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 10 Apr 2017 15:59

No Shiv, "faster" propellant means that it burns within a "shorter" barrel itself. Otherwise there was no purpose of new advanced propellant/rounds at all. The New rifles are a foot shorter and almost the same weight and size as 5.56x45 rifles.

The other direction is taken by Kal tech Bull pub developed in USA which uses the sames mechanism like FNFAL with forward eject.

The third thing is that technology has not really moved and even our present FN FAL = Isapore remains current. With some spit, polish and side mounted optics it is good to go again in new Avtaar. USA is bringing back their 70 year old M14s from stock to use as DMR. Why do we need to go for import needlessely??

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 15 Apr 2017 12:56

Gyan wrote:We should bring back Isapore Fal 7.62x51 with new plastic furniture to replace wood & side mounted sights like Galil



Making a case for turning the FNFAL into a low cost DMR.

"You can’t teach an old dog new tricks, or can you? This is the question that several users of the trusted H&K G3 rifle are attempting to answer, while looking for a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR)! The extremely popular .308 (7.62X51 NATO) weapon was procured by more than 60 nations worldwide and produced under license by many of them. As a result, and despite the fact that its designing origins can be traced back as far as WWII, several millions of them are still in use.

Many armed forces that had made the transition (or are currently making it) to the .223 (5,56X45 NATO) caliber are looking to upgrade the old reliable workhorse with new tactical forearms and stocks, pistol grips and bipods and heavier, more accurate barrels. By doing so, they are getting a very reliable and more importantly, cheap Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR)."

G3 DMR
Image


https://sofrep.com/78949/you-cant-teach-an-old-dog-new-tricks/

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 15 Apr 2017 17:50

@ Rkhanna

Here is a custom FN FAL variant with Hi power scope, bipod, pistol grip, adjustable cheek rest on foldable stock

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Apr 2017 18:34

A path down modernised FAL, unless one continues with tilting bolt, would inevitably turn into Fn Scar like weapon.

Fn Fal, though a great rifle, did not father many new designs. Only the Brazilians went down the Fal derivative path with tilting bolt and made a very heavy Imbel IA2.

The Fn Fal had several shortcomings of its own.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 15 Apr 2017 18:55

FN GMAG still manufactured by lot of nations including India, USA has tilting bolt. What's wrong with tilting bolt?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Apr 2017 22:21

Gyan wrote:FN GMAG still manufactured by lot of nations including India, USA has tilting bolt. What's wrong with tilting bolt?


Requires a heavier and beefier receiver.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 03 May 2017 11:13

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indian-armed-forces-made-in-india-weapons-surgical-strikes/1/943275.html

Punj Lloyd (one of the few private firms with small arms mnufcaturing license) has tied up with IWI to manufacture galils and tavors in India.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 03 May 2017 12:09

Does this mean that the Tavors will be massed produced for Regular line units as well? The Tavor needs better care and training. A Bullpup when the rest of the world (France, et,al) seem to be moving away from them?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 03 May 2017 22:56

Thakur_B, So what was deficient with the Excalibur rifle?
Why did all these new rifles not see production orders?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gagan » 04 May 2017 05:07

The armed forces are in two minds about the rifle calibers it seems. Maybe the Excalibur is a victim of this.
They did ask OFB to make a 7.62mm version also.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 04 May 2017 05:11

Gagan wrote:The armed forces are in two minds about the rifle calibers it seems. Maybe the Excalibur is a victim of this.
They did ask OFB to make a 7.62mm version also.


Simple.

Do you want to kill the enemy dead or wound them to comeback and kill you?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gagan » 04 May 2017 05:29

I would also really really like to know, what reason is provided to styme domestic production.

INSAS, I totally understand, long barrel, 5.56mm, semi auto with burst fire only, quality issues means that it is sometimes frustrating in CQB when countering terrorists. The soldier in the field, in the middle of a battle, should not be let down by his primary weapon.

I think IA wants a weapon, that is fully automatic, shorter barrel length, better use in cold weather, lightweight modern weapon.
Maybe they want to switch over to not just 7.62, but also use new propellant in bullets, incorporate rails, be sturdy and free of production issues. So this search for a foreign origin weapon from a reputed manufacturer

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 04 May 2017 10:22

ramana wrote:Thakur_B, So what was deficient with the Excalibur rifle?
Why did all these new rifles not see production orders?


The answer's best known to the Indian Army. The army did buy some excalibur, but it has not seen mass induction. You can see the Jawan on the right toting excalibur (interestingly the excalibur he is holding sports the older INSAS folding stock).
Image
Also seen with Assam RIfles.
Image

The excalibur, in my opinion, did not offer much of an improvement over baseline INSAS. The mk1c on the other hand is a deep redesign of the rifle. The number of rivets has gone down by a ton, the finish and polymer is much better.
Image
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 05 May 2017 21:14

Image

After several years of being rumoured to come up in 7.62x51 variant, IWI has finally started to advertise tavor in the said caliber.

Punj Lloyd plant is said to be of 50000 rifle annual production capacity.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 05 May 2017 21:20

IAF has issued RFI for 600 7.62 (?) assault rifles, 1800 smg and 2000 9 mm pistols from Indian and foreign firms for Garud.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 05 May 2017 22:52

Punji cannot manufacture Tavor or any other rifle. They have couple of CNC machines to machine just the bolt from imported Raw Material and a press for stamping the plastic receiver from imported engineering plastic. Total value addition less than 10%.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 05 May 2017 23:47

Gyan wrote:Punji cannot manufacture Tavor or any other rifle. They have couple of CNC machines to machine just the bolt from imported Raw Material and a press for stamping the plastic receiver from imported engineering plastic. Total value addition less than 10%.


Well assembling a rifle doesn't account for much more than that, or does it :). Also, it's a rifle, i am pretty sure all raw material can be sourced locally.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Prem » 06 May 2017 09:14

http://www.financialexpress.com/industr ... sh/654377/
Country’s first private sector small arms manufacturing plant inaugurated in Madhya Pradesh

India’s first private sector small arms manufacturing plant was today inaugurated here which will supply world class weapons to the armed forces in sync with the country’s defence indigenisation programme. The plant, a joint venture between India’s Punj Lloyd and Israel Weapon Systems, will produce four products — X95 carbine and assault rifle, Galil sniper rifle, Tavor assault rifle and Negev Light Machine Gun (LMG).
The commissioning of the plant comes ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s upcoming visit to Israel during which a number of mega defence deals are likely to be sealed.India is the largest buyer of Israel’s military hardware and the latter has been supplying various weapon systems, missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles over the last few years but the transactions have largely remained behind the curtains.Speaking on the occasion, Michel Ben-Baruch, Head of SIBAT, Israel Ministry of Defence said his country will continue to support transfer of technology to India for defence production.
“Israel’s Ministry of Defense fully and wholeheartedly supports this cooperation and will continue to support the transfer of technology and information also in the future, for the betterment of improved advanced tools.“Israel and India consider their defense industry cooperation as a monumental step forward, towards a future of immense potential,” he said.Speaking on the occasion, Punj Lloyd Chairman Atul Punj said, “These are tried and tested battle proven products already being used within the country. It is the first time in India that we are coming together with the complete technology to manufacture these products as ‘Made in India’.”He said the the joint venture company, Punj Lloyd Raksha Systems, will help the armed forces replace their weapons with sophisticated and high precision products.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 06 May 2017 12:09

X95 and Tabor assault rifles
Who make the ammo?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 06 May 2017 13:18

ramana wrote:X95 and Tabor assault rifles
Who make the ammo?


Ofb already does.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby A Deshmukh » 06 May 2017 14:32

Gyan wrote:Punji cannot manufacture Tavor or any other rifle. They have couple of CNC machines to machine just the bolt from imported Raw Material and a press for stamping the plastic receiver from imported engineering plastic. Total value addition less than 10%.

this is supposed to be foreign company manufacturing in India.
even 10% for now is good. better than 0%.
over a decade, this can become a mfg hub for world market.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 06 May 2017 14:59

As long as India's "demographic bulge" can get jobs we stand to gain.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 06 May 2017 20:19

shiv wrote:As long as India's "demographic bulge" can get jobs we stand to gain.


+1

That is why I keep asking this question from BRF-ites:

"Why do you oppose employment for thousands of new screwdriver-ers?"

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 06 May 2017 20:43

It is not a foreign company manufacturing in India but a foreign company taking India for a ride. What's wrong with MCIWS? Generally it's couple of screw drivers serving thousands of Dalals, netas and Babus.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby A Deshmukh » 06 May 2017 20:46

Gyan wrote:Punji cannot manufacture Tavor or any other rifle. They have couple of CNC machines to machine just the bolt from imported Raw Material and a press for stamping the plastic receiver from imported engineering plastic. Total value addition less than 10%.

I also disagree with your assessment of Punj Llyod.
IIRC correctly, they invested heavily in capacity building for Denel contracts, but got financially screwed when that did not happen.
I am happy for them with this development.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby A Deshmukh » 06 May 2017 20:55

Gyan wrote:It is not a foreign company manufacturing in India but a foreign company taking India for a ride. What's wrong with MCIWS?

MCIWS is a new weapon. I have not seen results of its trials. Cannot comment.

But I believe, we need these weapons in millions (army, crpf, etc). If MCIWS stabilizes quickly, orders can be split between both.
Just like we need Tatas-Indica/Indigo/Nano, as well as Honda/Hyundai/Mercedes/....
IMO we need both.

Gyan wrote:Generally it's couple of screw drivers serving thousands of Dalals, netas and Babus.

Cannot rule out corruption.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby jayasimha » 08 May 2017 18:48

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION: THERMAL WEAPON SIGHT FOR ASSAULT RIFLE
FOR INFANTRY
https://www.indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/7/2.pdf

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 08 May 2017 19:37

It seems 3-4 different RFI/RFP have been floated to buy thermal weapon sights. Would it not be more advisable to combine them and enter into more comprehensive ToT? This strategy of splitting up orders was adopted in Telecom sector to keep a bunch of foreign companies happy & to get gold cookies from all of them without anyone upsetting the Cookie cart. Indian Telecom related manufacturing is practically dead. Something amiss here also.

https://indianarmy.nic.in/MakeInIndia/S ... nQRsFgbA==

https://www.indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/7/2.pdf

for Assault Rifles

https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata ... RFITIS.pdf

THERMAL IMAGING SIGHT FOR 7.62MM SNIPER RIFLE

file:///C:/Users/ASKLAW/Downloads/vrde_Specifications_190814.pdf

https://www.google.co.in/search?q=therm ... 66&bih=589

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 09 May 2017 21:36

Negev, Galil Sniper, ACE Assault Rifle

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 577469.cms


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