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Small Arms Thread

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 09 Apr 2017 21:05

^^ Reporters, can't even get the calibre right. 7.62x52 :D :D

I hope the rifle is something manageable in size, weight and recoil. The SIG SG 751 is a good template to go by. The version in the video below is 14" version, but the rifle is available in 13" to 20" barrels.

The operating system and the ergonomics aren't too different from the INSAS. Stamped steel receiver, easier to produce in large numbers. Not too many rails to make the rifle too heavy. The removing top cover template of the AK vintage should be abandoned in favour of receiver/upper template, that makes rifles easier to upgrade/modify.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 09 Apr 2017 21:47

^^Plashtic magazine

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 09 Apr 2017 22:22

They should adopt the layout of HK-417 or SIG for 7.62x51 rifle.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 10 Apr 2017 09:34

Advanced 7.62x51 rounds are also being introduced in the western world. With faster propellants, these rounds permit rifles with shorter barrels between 13-16 inches. Thus new rifles can be shorter lighter & more compact

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 10 Apr 2017 09:59

Gyan wrote:Advanced 7.62x51 rounds are also being introduced in the western world. With faster propellants, these rounds permit rifles with shorter barrels between 13-16 inches. Thus new rifles can be shorter lighter & more compact

Every one of these things has a drawback and a compromise must be reached. More propellant with shorter barrel usually mean big muzzle flash that blinds the shooter at night and is also more easily visible to an enemy. Also a loud bang.

Shorter barrel often also means loss of accuracy.

There is no ideal.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 10 Apr 2017 15:59

No Shiv, "faster" propellant means that it burns within a "shorter" barrel itself. Otherwise there was no purpose of new advanced propellant/rounds at all. The New rifles are a foot shorter and almost the same weight and size as 5.56x45 rifles.

The other direction is taken by Kal tech Bull pub developed in USA which uses the sames mechanism like FNFAL with forward eject.

The third thing is that technology has not really moved and even our present FN FAL = Isapore remains current. With some spit, polish and side mounted optics it is good to go again in new Avtaar. USA is bringing back their 70 year old M14s from stock to use as DMR. Why do we need to go for import needlessely??

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 15 Apr 2017 12:56

Gyan wrote:We should bring back Isapore Fal 7.62x51 with new plastic furniture to replace wood & side mounted sights like Galil



Making a case for turning the FNFAL into a low cost DMR.

"You can’t teach an old dog new tricks, or can you? This is the question that several users of the trusted H&K G3 rifle are attempting to answer, while looking for a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR)! The extremely popular .308 (7.62X51 NATO) weapon was procured by more than 60 nations worldwide and produced under license by many of them. As a result, and despite the fact that its designing origins can be traced back as far as WWII, several millions of them are still in use.

Many armed forces that had made the transition (or are currently making it) to the .223 (5,56X45 NATO) caliber are looking to upgrade the old reliable workhorse with new tactical forearms and stocks, pistol grips and bipods and heavier, more accurate barrels. By doing so, they are getting a very reliable and more importantly, cheap Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR)."

G3 DMR
Image


https://sofrep.com/78949/you-cant-teach-an-old-dog-new-tricks/

Manish_P
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 15 Apr 2017 17:50

@ Rkhanna

Here is a custom FN FAL variant with Hi power scope, bipod, pistol grip, adjustable cheek rest on foldable stock

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Apr 2017 18:34

A path down modernised FAL, unless one continues with tilting bolt, would inevitably turn into Fn Scar like weapon.

Fn Fal, though a great rifle, did not father many new designs. Only the Brazilians went down the Fal derivative path with tilting bolt and made a very heavy Imbel IA2.

The Fn Fal had several shortcomings of its own.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 15 Apr 2017 18:55

FN GMAG still manufactured by lot of nations including India, USA has tilting bolt. What's wrong with tilting bolt?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Apr 2017 22:21

Gyan wrote:FN GMAG still manufactured by lot of nations including India, USA has tilting bolt. What's wrong with tilting bolt?


Requires a heavier and beefier receiver.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 03 May 2017 11:13

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indian-armed-forces-made-in-india-weapons-surgical-strikes/1/943275.html

Punj Lloyd (one of the few private firms with small arms mnufcaturing license) has tied up with IWI to manufacture galils and tavors in India.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 03 May 2017 12:09

Does this mean that the Tavors will be massed produced for Regular line units as well? The Tavor needs better care and training. A Bullpup when the rest of the world (France, et,al) seem to be moving away from them?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 03 May 2017 22:56

Thakur_B, So what was deficient with the Excalibur rifle?
Why did all these new rifles not see production orders?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gagan » 04 May 2017 05:07

The armed forces are in two minds about the rifle calibers it seems. Maybe the Excalibur is a victim of this.
They did ask OFB to make a 7.62mm version also.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 04 May 2017 05:11

Gagan wrote:The armed forces are in two minds about the rifle calibers it seems. Maybe the Excalibur is a victim of this.
They did ask OFB to make a 7.62mm version also.


Simple.

Do you want to kill the enemy dead or wound them to comeback and kill you?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gagan » 04 May 2017 05:29

I would also really really like to know, what reason is provided to styme domestic production.

INSAS, I totally understand, long barrel, 5.56mm, semi auto with burst fire only, quality issues means that it is sometimes frustrating in CQB when countering terrorists. The soldier in the field, in the middle of a battle, should not be let down by his primary weapon.

I think IA wants a weapon, that is fully automatic, shorter barrel length, better use in cold weather, lightweight modern weapon.
Maybe they want to switch over to not just 7.62, but also use new propellant in bullets, incorporate rails, be sturdy and free of production issues. So this search for a foreign origin weapon from a reputed manufacturer

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 04 May 2017 10:22

ramana wrote:Thakur_B, So what was deficient with the Excalibur rifle?
Why did all these new rifles not see production orders?


The answer's best known to the Indian Army. The army did buy some excalibur, but it has not seen mass induction. You can see the Jawan on the right toting excalibur (interestingly the excalibur he is holding sports the older INSAS folding stock).
Image
Also seen with Assam RIfles.
Image

The excalibur, in my opinion, did not offer much of an improvement over baseline INSAS. The mk1c on the other hand is a deep redesign of the rifle. The number of rivets has gone down by a ton, the finish and polymer is much better.
Image
Image

Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 05 May 2017 21:14

Image

After several years of being rumoured to come up in 7.62x51 variant, IWI has finally started to advertise tavor in the said caliber.

Punj Lloyd plant is said to be of 50000 rifle annual production capacity.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 05 May 2017 21:20

IAF has issued RFI for 600 7.62 (?) assault rifles, 1800 smg and 2000 9 mm pistols from Indian and foreign firms for Garud.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 05 May 2017 22:52

Punji cannot manufacture Tavor or any other rifle. They have couple of CNC machines to machine just the bolt from imported Raw Material and a press for stamping the plastic receiver from imported engineering plastic. Total value addition less than 10%.

Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 05 May 2017 23:47

Gyan wrote:Punji cannot manufacture Tavor or any other rifle. They have couple of CNC machines to machine just the bolt from imported Raw Material and a press for stamping the plastic receiver from imported engineering plastic. Total value addition less than 10%.


Well assembling a rifle doesn't account for much more than that, or does it :). Also, it's a rifle, i am pretty sure all raw material can be sourced locally.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Prem » 06 May 2017 09:14

http://www.financialexpress.com/industr ... sh/654377/
Country’s first private sector small arms manufacturing plant inaugurated in Madhya Pradesh

India’s first private sector small arms manufacturing plant was today inaugurated here which will supply world class weapons to the armed forces in sync with the country’s defence indigenisation programme. The plant, a joint venture between India’s Punj Lloyd and Israel Weapon Systems, will produce four products — X95 carbine and assault rifle, Galil sniper rifle, Tavor assault rifle and Negev Light Machine Gun (LMG).
The commissioning of the plant comes ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s upcoming visit to Israel during which a number of mega defence deals are likely to be sealed.India is the largest buyer of Israel’s military hardware and the latter has been supplying various weapon systems, missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles over the last few years but the transactions have largely remained behind the curtains.Speaking on the occasion, Michel Ben-Baruch, Head of SIBAT, Israel Ministry of Defence said his country will continue to support transfer of technology to India for defence production.
“Israel’s Ministry of Defense fully and wholeheartedly supports this cooperation and will continue to support the transfer of technology and information also in the future, for the betterment of improved advanced tools.“Israel and India consider their defense industry cooperation as a monumental step forward, towards a future of immense potential,” he said.Speaking on the occasion, Punj Lloyd Chairman Atul Punj said, “These are tried and tested battle proven products already being used within the country. It is the first time in India that we are coming together with the complete technology to manufacture these products as ‘Made in India’.”He said the the joint venture company, Punj Lloyd Raksha Systems, will help the armed forces replace their weapons with sophisticated and high precision products.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 06 May 2017 12:09

X95 and Tabor assault rifles
Who make the ammo?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 06 May 2017 13:18

ramana wrote:X95 and Tabor assault rifles
Who make the ammo?


Ofb already does.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby A Deshmukh » 06 May 2017 14:32

Gyan wrote:Punji cannot manufacture Tavor or any other rifle. They have couple of CNC machines to machine just the bolt from imported Raw Material and a press for stamping the plastic receiver from imported engineering plastic. Total value addition less than 10%.

this is supposed to be foreign company manufacturing in India.
even 10% for now is good. better than 0%.
over a decade, this can become a mfg hub for world market.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 06 May 2017 14:59

As long as India's "demographic bulge" can get jobs we stand to gain.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 06 May 2017 20:19

shiv wrote:As long as India's "demographic bulge" can get jobs we stand to gain.


+1

That is why I keep asking this question from BRF-ites:

"Why do you oppose employment for thousands of new screwdriver-ers?"

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 06 May 2017 20:43

It is not a foreign company manufacturing in India but a foreign company taking India for a ride. What's wrong with MCIWS? Generally it's couple of screw drivers serving thousands of Dalals, netas and Babus.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby A Deshmukh » 06 May 2017 20:46

Gyan wrote:Punji cannot manufacture Tavor or any other rifle. They have couple of CNC machines to machine just the bolt from imported Raw Material and a press for stamping the plastic receiver from imported engineering plastic. Total value addition less than 10%.

I also disagree with your assessment of Punj Llyod.
IIRC correctly, they invested heavily in capacity building for Denel contracts, but got financially screwed when that did not happen.
I am happy for them with this development.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby A Deshmukh » 06 May 2017 20:55

Gyan wrote:It is not a foreign company manufacturing in India but a foreign company taking India for a ride. What's wrong with MCIWS?

MCIWS is a new weapon. I have not seen results of its trials. Cannot comment.

But I believe, we need these weapons in millions (army, crpf, etc). If MCIWS stabilizes quickly, orders can be split between both.
Just like we need Tatas-Indica/Indigo/Nano, as well as Honda/Hyundai/Mercedes/....
IMO we need both.

Gyan wrote:Generally it's couple of screw drivers serving thousands of Dalals, netas and Babus.

Cannot rule out corruption.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby jayasimha » 08 May 2017 18:48

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION: THERMAL WEAPON SIGHT FOR ASSAULT RIFLE
FOR INFANTRY
https://www.indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/7/2.pdf

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 08 May 2017 19:37

It seems 3-4 different RFI/RFP have been floated to buy thermal weapon sights. Would it not be more advisable to combine them and enter into more comprehensive ToT? This strategy of splitting up orders was adopted in Telecom sector to keep a bunch of foreign companies happy & to get gold cookies from all of them without anyone upsetting the Cookie cart. Indian Telecom related manufacturing is practically dead. Something amiss here also.

https://indianarmy.nic.in/MakeInIndia/S ... nQRsFgbA==

https://www.indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/7/2.pdf

for Assault Rifles

https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata ... RFITIS.pdf

THERMAL IMAGING SIGHT FOR 7.62MM SNIPER RIFLE

file:///C:/Users/ASKLAW/Downloads/vrde_Specifications_190814.pdf

https://www.google.co.in/search?q=therm ... 66&bih=589

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 09 May 2017 21:36

Negev, Galil Sniper, ACE Assault Rifle

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 577469.cms

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 10 May 2017 08:46

Small arms boutique video, MUST WATCH! (Fans of Tarantino will recognize it from Sam Jackson's TV in the hit movie 'Jackie Brown'.)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ashishvikas » 13 May 2017 21:26

MCIWS EXCLUSIVE

The Advanced Assault Rifle (AAR) , previously known as MCIWS, is going to be inducted into Indian Armed Forces within just 6-10 months if any further problem doesn't arise. All modifications, suggested and demanded by army, have been done. All trials have been conducted successfully. The new model has reduced the weight further, means AAR is lighter than early MCIWS. It can accept 5.56, 6.8 and 7.62 mm ammo, giving an edge. AK magazines can be used in 7.62mm configuration. Weapon rate of fire is 600-650 RPM with 500m range. More than 250 models have been evaluated and more than 25000 rounds have been fired till now from each rifle.

For those asking for source, our admins attended Bhartiya Vigyan Sammelan Pune, where they got the info from DRDO officials themselves.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 1809547174

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby jamwal » 13 May 2017 22:52

Image

Image

Image

Image

ARDE Advanced Assault Rifle with an ADT/ITL Raptor red dot sight and the Corner Firing Weapon with an OFB 1A 9mm Auto pistol on display at DRDO Exhibition held in Pune.
The Advanced Assault Rifle was previously known as the MCIWS. Interestingly even the receiver markings on this rifle on display have MCIWS etched on them instead of AAR. The MCIWS was originally designed to be a multi calibre rifle available k. 5.56x45, 7.62x39 and 6.8mm, it is not known if the AAR is multi calibre capable now or not as according to some sources the rifle is only being developed in the 5.56x45mm calibre.
As can be seen the flash hider is an exact INSAS copy, the gas block and front sight post as well being taken from the INSAS. We can see a bayonet lug just below the gas block.The rifle has the same long stroke piston design with the same two lug bolt as the INSAS to reduce development time, although this is just a speculation on our part.

The rifle is provided with an AR-15 style magazine release, bolt release, safety selector, charging handle and magwell. The magwell has cutoff for reading the number of cartridges in the magazine. The magazine is transparent and similar to the INSAS magazine in concept, although it would be an AR-15 style magazine instead of the rock and lock magazine of the INSAS which was derived from the AK. The AAR has a redesigned buttstock which differs from the original AR-15 style buttstock. It is folding and has adjustable length of pull. The AAR link the MCIWS doesnt have the dust cover in the ejection port and the magazine well cutoff is asking for ingress of dust and dirt inside the rifle.

It would seem to take down the rifle the takedown pins near the handguard and safety selector lever would need to be removed. This would cause the upper and lower receivers of the rifle to separate and it would be possible to remove the bolt group and gas piston, although again this is purely speculation on our part. The rifle is most probably machined from a solid billet of metal like the AR-15 for both the AR-15 instead of being manufactured from stamped sheet metal like the AK and INSAS.

The rifle has rails on the upper receiver which can be used for attaching optics. The rifle also has a small quad rail segment near the forward end of the handguard for attaching of vertical foregrips, laser pointers, flashlights and other accessories.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 14 May 2017 07:45

ashishvikas wrote:MCIWS EXCLUSIVE

The Advanced Assault Rifle (AAR) , previously known as MCIWS, is going to be inducted into Indian Armed Forces within just 6-10 months if any further problem doesn't arise. All modifications, suggested and demanded by army, have been done. All trials have been conducted successfully. The new model has reduced the weight further, means AAR is lighter than early MCIWS. It can accept 5.56, 6.8 and 7.62 mm ammo, giving an edge. AK magazines can be used in 7.62mm configuration. Weapon rate of fire is 600-650 RPM with 500m range. More than 250 models have been evaluated and more than 25000 rounds have been fired till now from each rifle.

For those asking for source, our admins attended Bhartiya Vigyan Sammelan Pune, where they got the info from DRDO officials themselves.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 1809547174

+1 to a concise informative post with source and specs

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 20 May 2017 07:13

Image
Image
OFB 7.62 mm GPMG. Lighter variant of fn mag.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 21 May 2017 08:41

A better look at the lighter fn-mag derived gpmg.
Image
Image
_________________


MSMC/JVPC/Milaap looks nicely done. Robust with good finish. From the people who have been to the exhibition, it appears that the MSMC/JVPC/Milaap shall be chambered in 9 mm soon, instead of 5.56x30 MINSAS ammunition.
Image
Image
Image
___________________________________

Another promising design that appears to be headed nowhere. Around 250 AAR/MCIWS prototypes have been made by OFB and about 25000 rounds fired on an average from them.
Image
Image
Image
___________________________

OFB has also presented two new rifles. One appears to be an AK-103 rip off, the other one, judging by the size of magwell appears to be INSAS Mk-1C derivative chambered in 7.62x51. Initially the rumour was rife that the AKM derivative is the actual OFB gun chambered in 7.62x51 but comparing the size of magwell, it appears that the INSAS derivative may be the one chambered in 7.62 NATO.
Image
AK-103 clone in the center, the new rifle on the right being held in hand.
Image
Image
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^^ The magazine wells are clearly visible, indicating that the new OFB INSAS derivative is chambered in 7.62 NATO. Here is the 5.56 INSAS Mk-1c prototype for comparison. Notice the difference in barrel profile compared to AKM, flash suppressor/ muzzle brake, overall length of the rifle.
Image


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