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Small Arms Thread

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
abhik
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby abhik » 21 May 2017 10:00

Is the Army still looking for a multi caliber rifle? Or has it been dropped after a wild goose chase.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 21 May 2017 12:11

OFB Should have tried 7.62x51 in MCIWS variant which is more advanced design rather than in INSAS MK 1C.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 21 May 2017 14:33

Gyan wrote:OFB Should have tried 7.62x51 in MCIWS variant which is more advanced design rather than in INSAS MK 1C.


OFB was given 4 months to be ready with a new rifle. I doubt they had the time to redesign MCIWS, itself a prototype, in that timeframe.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 21 May 2017 17:35

4 months is adequate time in world of CAD CAM for a large manufacturing company in the relevant field. They already have manufacturing line of SLR for troublesome components like barrel, breech etc. MCIWS is reverse engineered HK416, they just had to copy HK417. The real problem might be that MCIWS is DRDO product & OFB did not involve them.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 21 May 2017 17:36

But nice pics Thakur ji. Is LMG rotary or pivoting bolt?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 21 May 2017 18:42

Gyan wrote:4 months is adequate time in world of CAD CAM for a large manufacturing company in the relevant field. They already have manufacturing line of SLR for troublesome components like barrel, breech etc. MCIWS is reverse engineered HK416, they just had to copy HK417. The real problem might be that MCIWS is DRDO product & OFB did not involve them.


AAR/MCIWS is not reverse engineered HK416, the 416, cannot field a folding buttstock as the stock houses the recoil spring. Internet speculation aside, at this point it is not even known whether it is a long stroke or short stroke design.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 22 May 2017 00:20

Ok, MCIWS is hugely inspired by HK-416.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 22 May 2017 06:19

The original inspiration for all guns is here. Same basic design.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 22 May 2017 06:45

Gyan wrote:Ok, MCIWS is hugely inspired by HK-416.


AR-15 family's ergonomics to be precise. Just like almost every non bullpup rifle being made today with few exceptions like galil, AK series and some SiG designs. The layout has its merits, easy to modify to ambidexterity, all controls (mag release, bolt release and safety) can be easily done without taking hands off rifle. Almost every new design is "inspired" from this layout.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 22 May 2017 11:10

INSAS Was not inspired with this design hence sights were mounted on pivoting dust cover. It's a good thing to be able to chose the right design/layout from among dozens floating around. The point was, before being way laid, that 7.62x51 should also have adopted the same layout.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 22 May 2017 14:36

shiv wrote:The original inspiration for all guns is here. Same basic design.


:mrgreen: :rotfl:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 23 May 2017 05:50

Image

The AK-103 is even stamped AK-103, which indicates this is a license build by one of the OFB factories. Apparently OFB's been trying to build them under license for a while.
http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories4038_OFB_seeks_nod_to_make_AK_rifles_in_India.htm
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/09/kalashnikov-rifles-to-be-made-in-india.html

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 23 May 2017 18:38

AK 103 is just AK 103 which is being offered by OFB like they offered Tavor ie zitara

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 24 May 2017 05:49

Image

PARA SF firing GALIL short automatic rifle (not sure if we operate some or part of carbine trials).

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 24 May 2017 06:57

Image

Franchi SPAS-15 tactical shotgun on the leftmost NSG commando.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 24 May 2017 07:41

Image
IWI Galatz in service with MARCOS

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 24 May 2017 22:17

Might as well standardize on the Israeli small arms.

IA did not order Excalibur, and will not order MCIWS either. So, why waste time? Just give order to Punj-Lloyd under MII and be done with it.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Srutayus » 25 May 2017 02:30

IA did not order Excalibur, and will not order MCIWS either. So, why waste time? Just give order to Punj-Lloyd under MII and be done with it.

And some more indigenous efforts bite the dust...not because of the products, which appear to be very good designs. The small arms design capabilities at OFB and ARDE, the only organizations with this expertise in this country, which took decades to build, will be lost. :cry:

The climb from component manufacturing and assembly to design and design for manufacture for companies like Punj Lloyd will be a steep one, if they do attempt it that is.

And so the story continues... :roll:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 27 May 2017 12:24

What weapon am I looking at? Wooden stock with a scope?

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 27 May 2017 12:34

Ak-47 .. alot of RR aks are getting new after market optics

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 30 May 2017 07:38

Comparing the newer Mk-1C prototypes, both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO, with older INSAS and excalibur builds, it appears that the manufacturing process has been changed from Stamped receiver to milled receiver. The rivets on the front of the receiver and around magazine well are gone now. The only rivets that remain are for trigger group and butt stock attachment. These differences are very similar to those in stamped and milled AKMs.

Here's older excalibur for comparison.
Image

Another point that I have noticed is extra large magwell cut, beyond the dimensions of 7.62 magazine. The magwell appears to have a chamber of some sorts visible in both 5.56 and 7.62 variant.
Image

My guess is that both variants are built around a common body, with minimum differences. I dare say there there might be a multi caliber version in works.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 31 May 2017 06:14

Image

Jaitly checking out Mk-1c in 7.62 NATO.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 31 May 2017 06:25

Army has issued two more RFIs for night sights for small arms.

5200 Nos for MMG.

15000 for 84 mm recoilless rifle.

Didn't knew we operated such a huge number of Carl Gustavs.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tsarkar » 31 May 2017 07:45

Carl Gustav is the most versatile weapon Indian Service along with 7.62 mm MMG, and also carried by ships for boarding/landing parties. It offers ATGM effects at low costs, and much more accurate than RPGs used by Pakistan.

There is a beautiful air burst round that works wonders in jungles and mountains and proved very useful against LTTE in the foliage.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 31 May 2017 11:54

Hopefully it might be for the newest version

Much lighter than the earlier one.

Will lighten the load of our troops


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 31 May 2017 13:01

Tsarkar ji

My mistake. I thought the RFI was for both the platform and the projectiles.

Hopefully the next batch of CGs we get/manufacture are the lighter M4 variant

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 02 Jun 2017 08:40

Image
Image
OFB prototype of the new 7.62x51mm assault rifle.This rifle is based on insas 1c rifle, that was developed from the experience derived from excalibur and insas rifle.It has a machined receiver,45 degree gas block, side folding metal butt stock and rotating bolt.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 02 Jun 2017 09:15

With OFB itself coming out with an array of small arms - I wonder if it is a good time for a "know your small arms" thread?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby DrRatnadip » 02 Jun 2017 15:30

shiv wrote:With OFB itself coming out with an array of small arms - I wonder if it is a good time for a "know your small arms" thread?


Sir It will help people like me to understand small arms better.. learnt a lot from your videos on chinese infrastructure in tibet.. New thread will be a good learning experience on Indian small arms.. :)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 03 Jun 2017 07:40

Please read ArmenT 's blog
He starts from basics.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 05 Jun 2017 06:53


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Jun 2017 17:16

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 061913.cms

new INSAS 7.62 variant is lighter than older one.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakarat » 20 Jun 2017 19:48


Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 20 Jun 2017 20:04

If I'm not mistaken that's Gen YK Joshi ex CO of 13 Jak Rif in Kargil ops. Great to see battle veterans reaching the top. Wish Col Lalit Rai had also reached the top.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 20 Jun 2017 21:29



That looks like standard Fn-Fal magazine. This rifle, though lighter than INSAS, will weigh at least 4.8 Kgs with magazine. Add weight of accessories like
4-5 spare magazines (800 g each)
holographic sight (350g)
UBGL (1.5 Kgs)
3-4 40 mm grenades (250g each)
foregrip (300-400g)
some spare batteries inside grips (60 g)
PNS (1.35 Kg)
Telescopic sight (500g)

We are easily looking at 8 Kg of rifle and ammunition weight for the individual soldier, for just basic configuration with 4 spare mags, holographic sight and foregrip.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 21 Jun 2017 01:13

Thakur_B wrote:That looks like standard Fn-Fal magazine. This rifle, though lighter than INSAS, will weigh at least 4.8 Kgs with magazine. Add weight of accessories like
4-5 spare magazines (800 g each)
holographic sight (350g)
UBGL (1.5 Kgs)
3-4 40 mm grenades (250g each)
foregrip (300-400g)
some spare batteries inside grips (60 g)
PNS (1.35 Kg)
Telescopic sight (500g)

We are easily looking at 8 Kg of rifle and ammunition weight for the individual soldier, for just basic configuration with 4 spare mags, holographic sight and foregrip.


Dumb question:

How does that compare with the "maadern" rifles from phaaren competitors?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 21 Jun 2017 01:42

From TOI report the rifle met all the requirements except the '2400 rounds without stoppage". Mr. Agarwal of RFI, OFB says that feature was there in the 5.56mm version and is an easy fix.
Cost wise it looks great at Rs. 50,000 for rifle and accessories.


Thakur_B:
How many magazines would 2400 rounds mean?

how does this compare to AK-47?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby abhik » 21 Jun 2017 06:37

Any idea on how this gun is supposed to be lighter than INSAS? Also the barrel length appears to be less than SLR (not sure if it actually is).

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bishwa » 21 Jun 2017 06:55

Yes, Lt. Gen Y.K.Joshi is former CO of 13 JAK Rif in Kargil. Capt Vikram Batra as well as Naib Subedar Sanjay Kumar are from the same unit.
Last edited by Bishwa on 21 Jun 2017 07:26, edited 1 time in total.


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