Small Arms Thread

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1215
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Jan 2018 18:14

abhik wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:...
Why take the crazy products directed towards american mall ninjas ? Negev 7 and FN Minimi both accept 30 round STANAG managines and specially designed higher capacity magazines and are purpose built LMGs. IA had made a good choice in Negev 7 but fate wouldn't have it.
...

I don't think the 7.62x51 version has the magazine feed, it's only belt fed.


Yes, thanks for pointing this out. The Negev bolt carrier and piston assembly, instead of having a piston rod to transfer momentum, is oddly shaped to allow piston operation (with gas tube being on bottom) while still allowing magazine insertion in 5.56. Designing this part for a powerful cartridge like 7.62x51 would make it very heavy and large.
Image

Edit: I always believed Negev had a magazine fed option in 7.62, where do I find Kauwa Biryani now ? :oops:

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1599
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vasu raya » 13 Jan 2018 23:47

An alternative to panoramic lense, using adaptive optics


Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1215
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 14 Jan 2018 20:16

Rare picture of Galil carbine with Para SF.
Image

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1215
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 16 Jan 2018 10:35

Image

Image

Image

New helmets, ARDE 40mm UBGL and BEL nightvision scopes appearing increasingly frequent in field.

Bharadwaj
BRFite
Posts: 197
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 11:09

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 16 Jan 2018 18:10

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/n ... 437733.ece

He said the remaining requirement would be through indigenous solutions which would be split between the OFB and the private industry to create competition and get a better product. “The infantry soldier deployed in the front will get the high-tech assault rifle. We have identified the gun and trials are on. We will get it very soon preferably through the government to government route,” Gen. Rawat said.


Any guesses as to which riffle?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50014
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 16 Jan 2018 22:02

This one is the OFB 7.62mmx51 rifle.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50014
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 16 Jan 2018 22:28

X-Posting...
Ardeshir wrote:Govt approves emergency purchase of 1.6 lakh assault rifles & carbines for frontline soldiers
NEW DELHI: Thirteen years after the Army first asked for new-generation assault rifles and close-quarter battle (CQB) carbines, there is finally some hope for the humble infantry soldiers. At least for the ones deployed on the borders with China and Pakistan.
The defence acquisitions council (DAC), chaired by Nirmala Sitharaman, cleared on Tuesday the fast-track procurement (FTP) of 72,400 assault rifles and 93,895 carbines for Rs 3,547 crore from the global market.


Bharadwaj
BRFite
Posts: 197
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 11:09

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 16 Jan 2018 23:58

ramana wrote:This one is the OFB 7.62mmx51 rifle.


Sorry I should have been more specific. I am talking about the Govt to Govt deal for the limited imports which the chief is indicating. It sounds as though they have narrowed down the choice already. I hope it is the arx 200 or the scar h and not something unproven from the U.S civilian/ military gun production colossus.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2185
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby abhik » 17 Jan 2018 01:04

^^^
I don't think ARX 200 is a 'proven' rifle, in fact apart from SCAR-H, which has been in service with US Special forces, I can't think of any other 'modern' 7.62x51 (non sniper/DMR) rifle that is in widespread use.

Bharadwaj
BRFite
Posts: 197
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 11:09

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 17 Jan 2018 01:34

At least it's based on the 160 which can be called proven. What I fear is some cheapo semi civilian stuff from the U.S getting in through fms. While the merits of this multi weapon policy can be debated.... It is better to get the least risky option even if it is expensive. The tavor 7 despite the bullpup drawback may still end up with this deal given the experience with tar 21 and our ever closer ties to Israel.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1125
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 17 Jan 2018 01:42

^^How long is this "emergency procurement" supposed to take?

Bharadwaj
BRFite
Posts: 197
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 11:09

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 17 Jan 2018 01:43

One year is what I saw quoted in a report.

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3126
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 17 Jan 2018 01:51

Why not the latest version of the Kalashnikov?

Bharadwaj
BRFite
Posts: 197
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 11:09

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 17 Jan 2018 01:59

One also hopes that the supposed 2000 round no stoppage target set for the ofb riffle is applied to the imported maal during trials.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50014
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2018 02:08

If you see the fast track process (FTP) the rifle is selected and what's being approved is the costs. This is the govt to govt deal.

The other thing is the OFB rifle for the rest of the troops.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35679
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby SaiK » 17 Jan 2018 05:40

confusing to read ToI.

The shortfalls will be met through "Make in India" programmes for the 7.62x51mm assault rifles to replace the glitch-prone existing 5.56mm INSAS (Indian small arms system) rifles and the 5.56x45mm CQB carbines to supplant the obsolete 9mm sub-machine carbines. "They could be from the DRDO-Ordnance Factory Board combine or private companies with technology transfer from foreign armament majors," said another official.

Confusing headlines on numbers, and plans to purchase etc.

This is the plan for replacing the 5.56x45mm INSAS.

The defence acquisitions council (DAC) cleared the fast-track procurement of 72,400 assault rifles and 93,895 carbines for Rs 3,547 crore from the global market.


This is the shortfalls/gap filler.

correct?

srin
BRFite
Posts: 1552
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby srin » 17 Jan 2018 06:42

Given the timing, I suspect it might be with Israelis, which means Galil with 7.62 NATO ?

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1215
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 17 Jan 2018 08:23

Tavor 7
Galil Ace 52
Sig 751 SAPR (Sig 550 based)
Sig 716 (Ar 15 based)
Colt Cm 905 (Ar15 based)
Hk417 (Ar15 based)
Scar H
Arx 200

Govt to govt deal puts tavor 7 or galil Ace as frontrunners.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15354
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 17 Jan 2018 08:32

I hope its a proper weapon, tested fully and not some political sop to israel becoz oh poor Spike deal.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35679
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby SaiK » 17 Jan 2018 09:24

no, spike deal is back. gov-gov now

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 465
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 17 Jan 2018 11:08

This is most depressing and short sighted...We make an ATAGS an LCA but cannot get small arms sorted...i wish someone put sanctions on us for small arms....

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1053
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 17 Jan 2018 11:50

Thought HK had a ban on selling to the subcontinent.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1355
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 17 Jan 2018 12:07

Kakkaji wrote:Why not the latest version of the Kalashnikov?


The round mentioned is 7.62x51mm. That's NATO standard.

My bet would be the Galil Ace 52

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Jan 2018 12:09

Disappointing, I hope atleast ammunition is Indian manufactured 7.62*51 Nato.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7800
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 17 Jan 2018 12:33

ramana wrote:If you see the fast track process (FTP) the rifle is selected and what's being approved is the costs. This is the govt to govt deal.

The other thing is the OFB rifle for the rest of the troops.



This deal is a back door way of killing OFB product. On the same lines of t 90 vs arjun.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15354
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 17 Jan 2018 13:04

We cannot afford the fancy rifle beyond the combat troops so one way or the other OFB has a chance, provided it makes a decent rifle, which is where the issue is yet to be proven..

Seriously, hasn't IA given them enough chances already, with so many hassles regarding ammo? I was one of the Dhanush skeptics, and now even that program is not going anywhere fast. I mean there are good teams in OFB for sure, but the overall unionized attitude has made sure a lot of the stuff that comes out of there is haphazard.

About rifles, does anyone have an idea which rifle was almost chosen by IA in 2012 or thereabouts when AK Antony cancelled the whole deal. Logically, that should be the rifle the IA Chief is saying that they have a rifle and trials are going on to confirm it etc.

I remember Vaibhav mentioning IA was impressed with some rifle in trials.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 465
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 17 Jan 2018 13:26

Karan M wrote:We cannot afford the fancy rifle beyond the combat troops so one way or the other OFB has a chance, provided it makes a decent rifle, which is where the issue is yet to be proven..

Seriously, hasn't IA given them enough chances already, with so many hassles regarding ammo? I was one of the Dhanush skeptics, and now even that program is not going anywhere fast. I mean there are good teams in OFB for sure, but the overall unionized attitude has made sure a lot of the stuff that comes out of there is haphazard.

About rifles, does anyone have an idea which rifle was almost chosen by IA in 2012 or thereabouts when AK Antony cancelled the whole deal. Logically, that should be the rifle the IA Chief is saying that they have a rifle and trials are going on to confirm it etc.

I remember Vaibhav mentioning IA was impressed with some rifle in trials.

Why not bypass the ofb and get manufacturing done by pvt sector. ARDE can conc on design and dev and surely with the conf that manufacturing quality will be good IA will support and iteratively....

jaysimha
BRFite
Posts: 635
Joined: 20 Dec 2017 14:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby jaysimha » 17 Jan 2018 17:20

Aditya_V wrote:Disappointing, I hope atleast ammunition is Indian manufactured 7.62*51 Nato.


It is made i think

Image

CARTRIDGE SA 7.62 mm BALL M80 - Ordnance Factory Board

ROLE :
The cartridge SA 7.62 mm Ball M-80 is used in antipersonnel role by infantry and is fired from :

a) Semi Automatic Rifle
b) Light machine gun
c) Medium machine gun

PERFORMANCE CHARACTERISTICS :
(a) Pressure Average 348 Mpa (Max)
(b) Mean Velocity from 558 mm Barrel at 25 m from muzzle 817± 9 m/s.
(c) Consistency (Mean Figure of Merit at 550 m) 19 cm or less
(d) Extreme temperature performance -53 to +72 deg C

for more info Contact :

Marketing & Export Division
Ordnance Factory Board
Ayudh Bhawan
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
10A, S. K. Bose Road, Kolkata – 700 001, India.

Tel: 0091-33-2248 9027 / 2248 2103 / 2248 5077-80
Fax : 0091-33-2248 1748/2210 8235
Mail : ofbtrade@dataone.in


jaysimha
BRFite
Posts: 635
Joined: 20 Dec 2017 14:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby jaysimha » 17 Jan 2018 17:33

http://rfi.nic.in/doc/EOI_7_62X39_ASSAULT_RIFLE_06-04-2017.pdf
this was the rfi where it was mentioned that The last date for receipt of responses is 30/06/2017
may be there was response and now i think time to break the coconut..

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50014
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2018 22:40

ks_sachin wrote:

Why not bypass the ofb and get manufacturing done by pvt sector. ARDE can conc on design and dev and surely with the conf that manufacturing quality will be good IA will support and iteratively....



You kidding right? What makes you think suddenly Private Sector will make quality military grade products?

Do you know what efforts are needed in US to get there? The huge QA system to ensure the right products get accepted.

I am willing to bet that it will be same story here also.

The DGQA in Army headquarters needs to clean house and ensure they also have ownership of the end products.
Lot of teamwork is need to ensure quality end product.
What I see now is OFB makes products and QA accepts or rejects with no one caring and product quality.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1355
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 17 Jan 2018 23:30

jaysimha wrote:http://rfi.nic.in/doc/EOI_7_62X39_ASSAULT_RIFLE_06-04-2017.pdf
this was the rfi where it was mentioned that The last date for receipt of responses is 30/06/2017
may be there was response and now i think time to break the coconut..


7.62 x 39 ... Not 7.62 x 51 ?

Well, if that's correct then it does change things

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50014
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 18 Jan 2018 01:23


ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50014
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 18 Jan 2018 01:25

The 5.56 is for carbines in close quarter battle.

7.62x45 is for Rashtriya rifles and Central Police

7.62x51 will be for Army.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6202
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 18 Jan 2018 02:56

I don't know why Sandeep Unnithan is calling the three calibers a nightmare. IA already uses all three. 5.56x45 for the INSAS, the most prevalent. But here are huge numbers of AK-series rifles in service as can be seen from COIN ops pics from J&K and other places which use 7.62x39mm. Plus we have the Bren and FN-MAG in service which use the 7.62x51mm NATO round.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50014
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 18 Jan 2018 03:32

Just galata. IA has three threats and each require different weapon.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15354
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 18 Jan 2018 04:28

ramana wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:

Why not bypass the ofb and get manufacturing done by pvt sector. ARDE can conc on design and dev and surely with the conf that manufacturing quality will be good IA will support and iteratively....



You kidding right? What makes you think suddenly Private Sector will make quality military grade products?

Do you know what efforts are needed in US to get there? The huge QA system to ensure the right products get accepted.

I am willing to bet that it will be same story here also.

The DGQA in Army headquarters needs to clean house and ensure they also have ownership of the end products.
Lot of teamwork is need to ensure quality end product.
What I see now is OFB makes products and QA accepts or rejects with no one caring and product quality.


Well now, thanks to all the DRDO handholding, supplying to large services programs etc, there are a bunch of private firms IMHO who can do the job:

Bharat Forge: Make the barrels & key items for ATAGS, also make arty shells for IA. Arguably the best of the lot in that it will handle the metal & its machining both.
Walchandnagar Industries is another firm with both foundry & significant engineering services ability. If they can make gearboxes for IN ships, they can make an assault rifle.

If SAIL, JSW, Tata etc provide the steel/metal then other firms are also there:
L&T: Pinaka launchers, Arihant, Arjun BLT are just some of their better known programs
Tata SED: More known for Electronics but also a Pinaka & Akash systems supplier. Again, precision manufacturing is something they can do.
Tata ASL: The Hyderabad based arm of the Tata group, deals primarily with aerospace structures. But again, a precision manufacturing capability exists.
Dynamatics: Assemblies for Tejas, Su-30 - especially airframe. Machining a rifle isn't anywhere beyond them
VEM: Make all sorts of complex electromechanical assemblies; have significant in-house design capability
Alpha Design Tech: Set up by ex-head BEL R&D, provides assemblies for Su-30s & also acts as the licensed manufacturer for systems like TISAS for IA's T-72s. So again, machining complex assemblies is something they can pick up.
Apart from that there are a bunch of firms in the private sector who can pick up something like gun manufacturing.

There are firms like Punjj Lloyd which applied for licenses and haven't got any significant orders to do anything tangible. It's loss making while most/all the other firms above are profitable small firms, or subsidiaries of conglomerates.http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/p ... 383248.ece
They have set up a plant already to export IWI Tavor etc parts to Israel for re-export.

Even in DPSUs - I am sure BDL, BHEL, would do a far better job of making guns than OFB would ever do. BHEL even supplied guns to the Navy under TOT etc. But they are a much stronger firm than OFB anyday. Even ECIL which deals mostly with electromechanical and electronics stuff for DRDO, could be tapped for guns. They come under DAE but DRDO is one of their biggest customers.

Theres a huge list of so many automotive ancillary & other heavy engineering firms who could make guns. Restricting the gun certification to OFB IMHO was just pure politics and sheer laziness on behalf of our so called political masters from the UPA era.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 465
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Jan 2018 04:39

ramana wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:

Why not bypass the ofb and get manufacturing done by pvt sector. ARDE can conc on design and dev and surely with the conf that manufacturing quality will be good IA will support and iteratively....



You kidding right? What makes you think suddenly Private Sector will make quality military grade products?

Do you know what efforts are needed in US to get there? The huge QA system to ensure the right products get accepted.

I am willing to bet that it will be same story here also.

The DGQA in Army headquarters needs to clean house and ensure they also have ownership of the end products.
Lot of teamwork is need to ensure quality end product.
What I see now is OFB makes products and QA accepts or rejects with no one caring and product quality.

Sir I am not kidding. We have to start somewhere. I visited ARDE when the INSAS was being designed and just being inducted. I heard some interesting stories but I think from the Army's side things are slowly changing. Even ARDE seems to have built up a body of knowledge and can iteratively given the right user support come up with a good weapon. But OFB is a dog whose tail cannot be straightened. Most of the issues in the INSAS are around manufacturing quality and it is not just that weapon system...you name the kit the OFB does and there are quality issues.
DGQA itself has to clean house but acceptance of products is not that simple.....
Referring back to Karan's post above surely we could outsource the manufacture of key parts of the weapon with OFB perhaps only doing assembly.
We have to think different and approach the problem in a different way perhaps...

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 465
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Jan 2018 05:01

Ramana sir,
I quote Sudeepj from the LCA thread...

And while you did respond that some of this is RM the truth of the matter is that this appreciation has to be in the upper echelons of the services....

Technology and ownership of technology shapes the modern battlefield as much as the mythical 'high ground' did in the olden days. I am sorry to say this, but **IMHO**, services do not appear to understand how to midwife 'ownership of technology' to varying degrees. Navy is the best, Army the worst.

Technology is like a building, you build the latest generation atop the work done in earlier generations. If every desi product is compared with the latest gizmo from abroad and is discarded because it does not match or overmatch the latest & greatest, we will never be able to catch up. If the service says 'not my job to root for an unmade untested article' then they will never be able to design/use technology to shape the battlefield.

They can take a risk management approach towards unmade/untested articles, but again **IMHO** it should be a part of their mandate to shape the technological lay of the battlefield as much as it is part of their mandate to shape the physical lay of the battlefield.


I wish this was applied to the INSAS and our small arms development...

Instead we have a zoo of small arms and no definitive view even in 2017 on what small arms caliber we should go with!!!

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1215
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 18 Jan 2018 06:21

Karan M wrote:
About rifles, does anyone have an idea which rifle was almost chosen by IA in 2012 or thereabouts when AK Antony cancelled the whole deal. Logically, that should be the rifle the IA Chief is saying that they have a rifle and trials are going on to confirm it etc.


In earlier competitions, all rifles failed the multi caliber trial, galil made it through the carbine trial. Beretta was thrown out from carbine trial based on a very small technicality (the protective cap on sight got lose and fell, which was not part of rifle), or at least that is what the media reported.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Anoop, chola and 50 guests