Small Arms Thread

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Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 07 Apr 2018 08:13

^^ This is most likely a PR piece. There is a demand for 7.62x39 rifles from various agencies and OFB is trying to corner the market with ghatak, TAR and now AK 103 instead of direct imports. OFB seems to have been in talks with kalashnikov for a long time. They even put out AK103 as their product a few months back, with AK103 stamped on it.

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 07 Apr 2018 08:17

OFB is the GOI factory. Should they not seek to make the rifles?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 07 Apr 2018 08:38


Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 07 Apr 2018 08:39

ramana wrote:OFB is the GOI factory. Should they not seek to make the rifles?


They will, most likely.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tsarkar » 07 Apr 2018 09:07

darshhan wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Tattoos are not allowed in Indian Armed Forces. Same goes for the filmy haircut.


TSarkar ji, Special forces regulations regarding haircuts are much more relaxed compared to regular army or navy. As far as tattoo is concerned he might have got it after induction in marcos. What matters is his combat performance/kill rate. If that is good and in all probability it will be, why would his CO be perturbed about a tattoo. Anyways special forces culture is about warrior spirit, fighting and action. I seriously doubt if they care much about haircuts/hierarchies/salutes/parades etc compared to the regular army.

Maybe in US but definitely NOT in India. We care a lot about these things in India. Discipline is paramount for a good unit. There is no way that chap is a MARCOS. Many police forces have procured Tavor too and this chap could be doing photo ops with one of them.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 07 Apr 2018 09:16

tsarkar wrote:
darshhan wrote:
TSarkar ji, Special forces regulations regarding haircuts are much more relaxed compared to regular army or navy. As far as tattoo is concerned he might have got it after induction in marcos. What matters is his combat performance/kill rate. If that is good and in all probability it will be, why would his CO be perturbed about a tattoo. Anyways special forces culture is about warrior spirit, fighting and action. I seriously doubt if they care much about haircuts/hierarchies/salutes/parades etc compared to the regular army.

Maybe in US but definitely NOT in India. We care a lot about these things in India. Discipline is paramount for a good unit. There is no way that chap is a MARCOS. Many police forces have procured Tavor too and this chap could be doing photo ops with one of them.


Grooming standards have been relaxed a lot in the last few years. Tattoos are no longer "haraam" if they are covered up under clothes. Visible tattoos and piercings are no go.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Austin » 07 Apr 2018 20:50

India-Russia deal soon on production of AK-series rifles at ordnance factory

HIGHLIGHTS
The deal will see the AK-series rifles being produced at ordnance factory.
The proposal was discussed during Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman's visit to Moscow.
A high-level MoD delegation will visit Russia towards the month end to assess the offer.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Apr 2018 11:17

https://mobile.twitter.com/user/status/983521553668190208

Image


@SandeepUnnithan
Lifesaver. First look at the Indian Army’s Level III+ BPJ. Boron Carbide Ceramic panels. Neck and groin protection. 10.4 kgs. can stop 7.62x51 ball, 7.62x39 AP, 5.56x45 steel core.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Apr 2018 11:19


atreya
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby atreya » 10 Apr 2018 12:26

Interesting comparison with other BPJs, posted by Unnithan in the comments below the main tweet.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SandeepUnnit ... 09/photo/1

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nash » 10 Apr 2018 13:04

I thought we will get this one, mentioned in below article:

https://yourstory.com/2017/06/soldiers- ... f-jackets/

The 20 layers and carbon fibre in the jackets will ensure that Army personnel can wear it and work in temperatures as high as 57 degrees celsius


and this technology only I thought DRDO transferred to private company MKU ltd.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 944235.cms

But current deal involve different private vendor , SMPP and BPJ is based on Boron Carbide Ceramic panels.

is there any further deal of BPJ ? and what happened to BPJ developed by Mr Bhowmick? :-?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Vips » 11 Apr 2018 07:07

Thales, MKU Ltd to produce F90 close quarter battle (CQB) rifles.
Thales, a €15.8-billion French company, and Kanpur-based defence equipment manufacturer MKU Ltd will together develop and produce optronic devices and F90 close quarter battle (CQB) rifles.

Both products, to be manufactured at MKU’s facilities in Kanpur, Uttar Pradesh, will be offered to the Indian Army and homeland security forces under the ‘Make in India’ initiative.

Emmanuel De Roquefeuil, Vice-President and Country Director, India, told newspersons that the products co-developed by the alliance will enhance night fighting capabilities of the Indian Army and homeland security forces.

The alliance envisages manufacturing of optronics equipment, including weapon sights, night vision goggles, hand-held thermal imagers and thermal infrared sensor engine for soldier systems, and other image intensification and thermal imaging systems for soldiers and platforms.

For weapons, MKU will set up an assembly and manufacturing plant for the carbine version of F90 assault rifle, combat-proven and already in service with the Australian Defence Forces. Light, balanced and accurate, the F90CQB developed with MKU will be well suited to Indian conditions and requirements, says a joint press release. Roquefeuil was non-committal on time frame of the new plant.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 11 Apr 2018 08:30

^^ Modernised Steyr F88/AUG. Nice.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 11 Apr 2018 08:37

@Nash ji, the Army selection and DRDO-MKU deal are unrelated. Army's current deal is for first batch of 186000 + jackets which were required yesterday and almost all the offerings failed repeatedly. Considering the emergency, army purchased best of what was available. The next purchase, which is even bigger, will be done with updated choices, in which DRDO-MKU product will be a contender. I don't think Dr. Bhowmick's work is anywhere near production ready

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 12 Apr 2018 09:10

Image
Image

OFB R-2 with improved muzzle brake.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 12 Apr 2018 16:40

While some jurnos are making silly poses with firangi rifles, Saurav Jha reporting valuable news that the above pictured rifle is now having much improved stoppage performance.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bob V » 12 Apr 2018 16:58

Thakur_B wrote:https://i.imgur.com/v7SQo8z.jpg?1
OFB R-2 with improved muzzle brake.


We did check it out, at the OFB stall - 7.62 x 51 (full-auto). It's a huge improvement from the 1A1.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakarat » 12 Apr 2018 17:02

nash wrote:I thought we will get this one, mentioned in below article:

https://yourstory.com/2017/06/soldiers- ... f-jackets/

The 20 layers and carbon fibre in the jackets will ensure that Army personnel can wear it and work in temperatures as high as 57 degrees celsius


and this technology only I thought DRDO transferred to private company MKU ltd.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 944235.cms

But current deal involve different private vendor , SMPP and BPJ is based on Boron Carbide Ceramic panels.

is there any further deal of BPJ ? and what happened to BPJ developed by Mr Bhowmick? :-?


The BPJ which has been orderd is the DRDO developed one. DRDOP transfered the design to 3-4 companys and SMPP was L1 for the tender

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakarat » 12 Apr 2018 17:04

Me and Bob V had a wonderful opertunity to pick up some rifels including Insas and JVPC

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rajkumar » 12 Apr 2018 17:11

Kakarat wrote:Me and Bob V had a wonderful opertunity to pick up some rifels including Insas and JVPC


What was JVPC like?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bob V » 12 Apr 2018 17:15

I managed to lay my hands on the black kit INSAS & the JVPC(MSMC) at the OFB stall. I'm not a gun enthusiast but from first looks, the JVPC has clean design lines, with neatly machined upper & lower receivers. On the downside, it weighs twice as much as the INSAS. I had great difficulty in aiming it, one-handed & even while using the short handguard. Addition of a vertical fore grip would be ideal. Opposite to their stall, there was a vendor from UAE - Caracal. Their carbines, SMGs & PDWs were comparatively much lighter & had better ergonomics. Maybe there's more scope for us to improve (?)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakarat » 12 Apr 2018 17:24

Bob V wrote:I managed to lay my hands on the black kit INSAS & the JVPC(MSMC) at the OFB stall. I'm not a gun enthusiast but from first looks, the JVPC has clean design lines, with neatly machined upper & lower receivers. On the downside, it weighs twice as much as the INSAS. I had great difficulty in aiming it, one-handed & even while using the short handguard. Addition of a vertical fore grip would be ideal. Opposite to their stall, there was a vendor from UAE - Caracal. Their carbines, SMGs & PDWs were comparatively much lighter & had better ergonomics. Maybe there's more scope for us to improve (?)


You felt that way but i felt the otherway around, our rifels were lighter. the Caracal rifels had metal grips and were heavy
You felt JVSP heavy because it was a compact weapon but still has all components of a regular weapon

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 12 Apr 2018 17:32

@kakarat and @bob v, were you able to get any info out of OFB guys ?

meanwhile....

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status/984234789258518531

@delhidefence

R2 7.62x51mm Assault Rifle from the OFB. Exhibited better accuracy and greater stopping power in head to head trials against the Galil version. Also note the updated muzzle brake.

Image

--------------

If Ace-52 is the comparison, R2 has a fighting chance in procurement. Jingo khush hua. The clean lines of R-2 are very heartwarming.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 12 Apr 2018 17:36

One important point to ponder upon, Ace-52 and Insas R-2 are fundamentally the same, no difference in features whatsoever.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 12 Apr 2018 17:39


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 12 Apr 2018 20:04

Thakur_B wrote:R2 7.62x51mm Assault Rifle from the OFB. Exhibited better accuracy and greater stopping power in head to head trials against the Galil version. Also note the updated muzzle brake. If Ace-52 is the comparison, R2 has a fighting chance in procurement. Jingo khush hua. The clean lines of R-2 are very heartwarming.


Dang, you said that just right. +1 Jingo

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakarat » 12 Apr 2018 20:19

Thakur_B wrote:@kakarat and @bob v, were you able to get any info out of OFB guys ?

meanwhile....

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status/984234789258518531

@delhidefence

R2 7.62x51mm Assault Rifle from the OFB. Exhibited better accuracy and greater stopping power in head to head trials against the Galil version. Also note the updated muzzle brake.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dai0PMSUQAE1Tqa.jpg

--------------

If Ace-52 is the comparison, R2 has a fighting chance in procurement. Jingo khush hua. The clean lines of R-2 are very heartwarming.


According to ofb official the latest rifle is doing good in trial and did not give any more details and he was from Rifle factory Ishapore. I have collected the Info sheets and have some photos of the rifel too, will post them shortly

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby atreya » 12 Apr 2018 20:51

Thakur_B wrote:


Caracal guy says the effective range is 800 mts! Is that an exaggeration?

OFB guy, on the other hand, says the sights can be flipped for 200 or 400 mts and the rifle "meets GSQR of 600 mts".

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakarat » 13 Apr 2018 00:51

The Latest version of the 7.62X51mm Assault Rifle being developed by OFB Rifle Factory Ishapore for the Indian Army displayed at DefExpo2018
https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 2261281792

Image
Image
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tsarkar » 13 Apr 2018 03:25

Thakur_B wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Maybe in US but definitely NOT in India. We care a lot about these things in India. Discipline is paramount for a good unit. There is no way that chap is a MARCOS. Many police forces have procured Tavor too and this chap could be doing photo ops with one of them.


Grooming standards have been relaxed a lot in the last few years. Tattoos are no longer "haraam" if they are covered up under clothes. Visible tattoos and piercings are no go.

No standards have been relaxed, whether grooming or tattoos. In operational areas, based on mission profile, personnel on specific orders maintain an appearance like the enemy or the local populace.

https://mobile.twitter.com/IAF_MCC/stat ... 28/video/1

This is what real commandos look like - quite unlike the toned body (useless in mission), styled hair and tattooed chap

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 13 Apr 2018 07:14

atreya wrote:Caracal guy says the effective range is 800 mts! Is that an exaggeration?

OFB guy, on the other hand, says the sights can be flipped for 200 or 400 mts and the rifle "meets GSQR of 600 mts".

If you look at the warning message on 0.22 rimfire bullets (which are less than the size of a Dolo-650 tablet) it says it can kill at 1000 meters which is true. That is safety information. Other than a sniper with steadied weapon and telescope no man can shoot effectively out to 800 meters. That aside the velocity would have degraded enough in 800 meters to make it "less effective" though still very dangerous. 200/400 meters is a good effective range that would keep the bullet lethal while following a relatively flat trajectory that translates to better accuracy.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 13 Apr 2018 09:51

Mod Note: No more discussions about appearance of commandos here. Not the thread for it.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 13 Apr 2018 10:39

atreya wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:


Caracal guy says the effective range is 800 mts! Is that an exaggeration?

OFB guy, on the other hand, says the sights can be flipped for 200 or 400 mts and the rifle "meets GSQR of 600 mts".


Effective range, rate of drop, penetration et all depends on a lot of things and varies accordingly. The more important parameters being the type of cartridge, muzzle velocity, air density, temperature, wind, angle, barrel length and more.. not to forget marketing :wink:

As Shiv ji has mentioned, very few can shoot accurately at distances of 800 mtrs, consistently, without good optics and good training.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Apr 2018 12:24

atreya wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:


Caracal guy says the effective range is 800 mts! Is that an exaggeration?

OFB guy, on the other hand, says the sights can be flipped for 200 or 400 mts and the rifle "meets GSQR of 600 mts".


800 meters at what accuracy ? AKM are rated for 300 meters but even with best optics, it would be hard to hit a house accurately with it. Fn Mag is rated for 1800 meters, but the effective range is close to 800 meters,

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Apr 2018 12:35

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata/ordnance-factory-board-to-supply-lethal-rifles-to-army/articleshow/63374692.cms

This is a news story from last month. OFB wants to compete in the global tender for rifles against foreign firms.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 13 Apr 2018 18:23

7.62x51mm battle rifle in full-auto mode? Very few men in the Indian Army outside the giants of the Bodyguard Cavalry and a few other individuals here and there will be able to control a light rifle firing on the happy-switch!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Zack » 13 Apr 2018 20:22

Was at a stall in Hall 8. Company is called
SS-LMT. Bangalore based manufacturing company with a 70 year manufacturing in India. They had some amazing Rifles.
They Said they have bid into the Indian
RFP.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Apr 2018 20:27

Zack wrote:Was at a stall in Hall 8. Company is called
SS-LMT. Bangalore based manufacturing company with a 70 year manufacturing in India. They had some amazing Rifles.
They Said they have bid into the Indian
RFP.


Does the LMT in SS-LMT stand for lewis machine tools ?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Zack » 13 Apr 2018 20:31

Yes,
Their Indian arm is called Stumpp &Lewies

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Apr 2018 20:35

Aha. quality stuff. LMT 7.62 NATO rifle beat out HK417 for UK marksman rifles. LMT has also replaced steyrs in New Zealand service. However one of the criteria of RFI, if i remember correctly, was to accept ARDE UBGL.


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