Small Arms Thread

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Vips » 14 Apr 2018 07:16



Punj Llyod/IWI display at Def Expo

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Vips » 14 Apr 2018 20:16

Foreign assault and sniper rifles to have 'Made in India' tag soon.

In a few years, assault and sniper rifles used by military and elite special forces in the US and the UK and a few other western countries will have a ‘Made in India’ tag.

Some of the best assault rifles and small arms used will be manufactured at plants, including in Chennai, as private component makers have signed agreements with foreign arms manufacturers.

More than five Indian companies had displayed their plans and the JVs at the DefExpo 2018 at Thiruvidanthai. And amidst he giant arms manufacturers who peddled supersonic missiles to smart fighter planes to electronic warfare software, these gunmakers who had set up smaller stalls caught the most attention.

The rifles and ammunition, far advanced than weapons used by the Indian Army, will be made at plants that will be set up under transfer of technology for export to the clients of the foreign partner. And officials say it would take a long time for these weapons to be inducted into the Indian Army because procurement procedures are cumbersome.

The small arms, assault rifles and sniper rifles manufactured by Desert Tech of USA, Lewis Machine & Tool Company and Steyr Mannlicher of Austria will be made here by their Indian partners.

Anand Jayaswal, managing director, Neco Desert Tech Defence, a joint venture company floated by Indian company Neco and Desert Tech, said: “We have formed the JV company to make the rifles under transfer of technology. The government of India has given the licence one-and-a-half months ago. The company will start production of assault rifles in the next few months.”

The rifles are used by special forces of Czech Republic, UAE, Lithuania, Thailand and a few other countries.

Satish Machani, managing director, Stumpp Schule & Somappa, said the joint venture was in place with Lewis Machine & Tool Company (LMT) of USA for making rifles and CBC of Brazil for making ammunition. “We have applied for a licence. Once that comes through, the company is ready to start production by this year itself. CBC is world’s second largest ammunition maker and is planning to shift its entire line to India. The ammunition will be exported,” he said.

Machani said the guns were being used in the US, the UK and New Zealand and as per the current plan it would be manufactured in Bengaluru while ammunition would be made in Chennai. A representative of the foreign partner said the rifles that would be made here would be exported to countries in the Middle East and South East Asia.


It is crazy, the number of joint ventures announced for making rifles in India stands at 7 and is further increasing. Remains to be seen how many will remain on ground after the winner for the Indian army tender is announced. Even if a couple of more remain in India to do cost arbitrage by making India a export base it will be good.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 14 Apr 2018 20:53

With that many contenders, the process won't be wound up soon and I think plenty of them will stay. Just count the number of small arms for
Army
Navy
Airforce
NSG
CRPF
BSF
ITBP
Coast Guard
CISF
SSB
Police of 29 states and 7 union territories
SAPFs / Armed Constabularies
PARA SF
MARCOS
Garud
SFF
Multiple SWAT Teams of each state
QRTs of CAPFs

That is dozens of procurements with dozens of different QRs. The number of police personnel in India already exceeds 2 million and will grow several fold as law and order goes up in priority with economic growth. To judge how big the market is going to be, take 15 year service life for small arms. Earlier small arms didn't get replaced often because of tiny budgets and sometimes our police didn't even get around to replace SMLE mk III with ishapore 2A1. In last 2 decades, most police have procured INSAS and AKM. Even if rarely used, their repalcement will be justified based on completion of service life because there are so much funds available. Even in Bimaru states like MP, your average policeman carries improved 1B1 and rides around in TFTA Safari Storme. In time, army procurement will take second priority to police procurement (QRs more easily influenced and most weapons will co to the scrapyard barely fired a few hundred rounds). All the above requirements put together is roughly 3.5 million small arms. A small arms manufacturer can easily sustain an assembly line of say, 10,000 rifles annually if contracts keep coming along.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Apr 2018 01:33

Image

Various 40 mm grenades for UBGL made by OFB

1. High Explosive Anti Personnel / High Explosive
2. High Explosive Dual Purpos (for penetrating armour)
3. Red Phosphorus
4. Practice - smoke
5. Practice - (?) can't figure this one out.
6. Proof
7. Target Marker
Last edited by Thakur_B on 15 Apr 2018 11:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Apr 2018 09:48

BEL sniper detection system.
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Apr 2018 15:00



Probably the best rifle made for 7.62x39 mm cartridge. In this video you can see the punch that the short stroke piston system gives to the bolt carrier in slow motion.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 17 Apr 2018 03:50

So OFB version of the 7.62x39mm gun has the short stroke from the Czechs?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 17 Apr 2018 03:56

Zack wrote:Yes,
Their Indian arm is called Stumpp &Lewies

SS full name is Stump Schule and Somappa.

Somappa group is founded by Machani Somappa a very well known entrepreneur in Karnataka.

M.S. Somappa
He set up many mechanical products factories.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 17 Apr 2018 07:45

ramana wrote:So OFB version of the 7.62x39mm gun has the short stroke from the Czechs?


No. OFB tar (trichy) is arsenal AKM, ghatak (ishapore) is AKM with insas trigger. Both ate long stroke. MCIWS was short stroke.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby VinodTK » 04 May 2018 12:38

The Russian Military Is Getting New Assault Rifles
Soon, Russian troops will carry new assault rifles into battle. The AK-12 and AK-15, direct descendants of the world-famous AK-47, are set to replace existing rifles and modernize the Russian military’s arsenal.

Russian soldiers currently carry the AK-74M assault rifle. This 5.45-millimeter rifle is descended from the 7.62-millimeter AK-47, which was introduced in 1947. The AK-74 was introduced in the 1970s and modernized to the -M standard in 1991. The Russian Army retains a stockpile of approximately two million AK-74s in different variants.
Image
AK-12

Image
AK-15
:
:
:

If the above news is true why is India going in for AK-103? Instead of AK-12

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nandakumar » 04 May 2018 13:24

ramana wrote:
Zack wrote:Yes,
Their Indian arm is called Stumpp &Lewies

SS full name is Stump Schule and Somappa.

Somappa group is founded by Machani Somappa a very well known entrepreneur in Karnataka.

M.S. Somappa
He set up many mechanical products factories.

They were very big for making all kinds of springs for automotive applications, at one time

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 04 May 2018 18:19

VinodTK wrote:The Russian Military Is Getting New Assault Rifles
Soon, Russian troops will carry new assault rifles into battle. The AK-12 and AK-15, direct descendants of the world-famous AK-47, are set to replace existing rifles and modernize the Russian military’s arsenal.

Russian soldiers currently carry the AK-74M assault rifle. This 5.45-millimeter rifle is descended from the 7.62-millimeter AK-47, which was introduced in 1947. The AK-74 was introduced in the 1970s and modernized to the -M standard in 1991. The Russian Army retains a stockpile of approximately two million AK-74s in different variants.
Image
AK-12

Image
AK-15
:
:
:

If the above news is true why is India going in for AK-103? Instead of AK-12


No, India is not going for AK-103, it is going to be another variant of AKM on offer by OFB in addition to TAR (milled receiver) and Ghatak (stamped receiver).
AK-15 is what is comparable to AK-103 and is an incremental upgrade, namely addition of picatinny rails and free floating barrel and gas tube. The gas tube is fixed unlike older AKM, and cleaning is done by removing plug in front. This leads to better accuracy, but for 7.62x39, the point is moot. Also, Ak-103 too comes with rails now, you can see the pictures of OFB made Ak-103 a few pages back.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Austin » 05 May 2018 23:25

Guns and roses. Some marigolds too. Chm OFB, @SKChourasia_OFB and Member (weapons & explosives) Hari Mohan handing over first of 642 #JVPC to @CG_Police

Image

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 4080174080

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 08 May 2018 03:43




Is this being considered in the sniper rifle procurement?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 08 May 2018 11:46

Thakur Sir any idea what variant of the akm it could be that the OFB will offer?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 08 May 2018 11:49

^^ Both RFI and RFT are offering AKMs independent of each other and both have got decent orders for the same. RFI has orders from CRPF for ghatak and RFT has orders from police forces for TAR.

Edit: It is my guesstimate, but RFK might be behind the AK 103 push to keep their assembly lines working.
Last edited by Thakur_B on 08 May 2018 12:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 08 May 2018 11:59

ramana wrote:



Is this being considered in the sniper rifle procurement?


A variant of this rifle, tochnost, has already been ordered by Russian forces using lapua round. The number of new designs and iterative upgrades coming from Russia are mind boggling. Russia is going through a small arms renaissance of sorts.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 08 May 2018 13:05

Ishapore Trichy and Kanpur?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tsarkar » 08 May 2018 13:30

Thakur_B wrote:^^ Both RFI and RFT are offering AKMs independent of each other and both have got decent orders for the same. RFI has orders from CRPF for ghatak and RFT has orders from police forces for TAR.

Edit: It is my guesstimate, but RFK might be behind the AK 103 push to keep their assembly lines working.

Small nitpick. There is no RFT and RFK, the proper names are -
Rifle Factory Ishapore
Ordnance Factory Trichy
Small Arms Factory Kanpur

Orders for TAR
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 83048.html
We have orders to produce 4,000 units for four State police departments including Chattisgarh,” said K Appa Rao, general manager, OFT


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 348542.cms
Initially, as Chhattisgarh state police alone had placed orders for procuring TAR, other state police forces have followed the suite which includes Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Kerala, and Mumbai police.


Orders for Ghatak
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 605569.cms
On Monday, RFI general manager Ratneshwar Varma handed over the weapon to Rajesh Dewan, DG, Kerala Police

"State police forces from Assam, Punjab, Manipur, Tamil Nadu, Telangana, Bihar, Maharashtra and Nagaland will receive consignments of Ghaatak rifles in subsequent batches shortly. Several other Central Armed Police Forces (CAPFs) have given indents for supply of the rifles.


Assam Forest Department is happy about Ghatak
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy ... 716184.ece
The Assam Forest Department is poised to be the first non-police or non-paramilitary force to acquire the Ghatak

The weapons the department bought were 272 Indian Small Arms System or INSAS assault rifle, 954 self-loading rifles or SLRs, 91 Ghatak rifles, 20 pistols (9mm), and 133 pump action guns of 12-bore.

“Our men in the field are excited about Ghatak. But it will take a great deal of adjustment from the old rifles to a hybrid one,” Kaziranga’s Divisional Forest Officer Rohini Ballave Saikia said.


CRPF isnt too happy
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/c ... 2018-02-21
One of the first rifles to be tested for field performance has been the advanced version of Ghatak assault rifle. While its performance was noted satisfactory, but the CRPF top brass said that Ghatak did not have the same lethality of AK 47, which is a weapon of choice for close quarter combat. With its 7.62 X 39 mm dimension, Ghatak's advanced version was put forth as state-of-the-art assault rifle. However, field officers have given it a thumbs down. "Its body part is made up of plastic and which looks tacky gives an unreal feel", said an officer.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 08 May 2018 20:08

Tsarkar and Thakur_B do you have any opinions on milled Vs stamped receivers?

Also saw an interesting video on the HK upgrades to the SA80 for the British army. Quite interesting to note that tweaks HK made were evolutionary rather than revolutionary - for example one was an external mod to the charging handle just to make the ejection of spent cartridges more predictable.
Another was to make the firing pin more sturdy.
Another was to make the mount holding the sight more sturdy i.e. better integrated with the receiver as there were serious complaints about the reliability of this mount.

Question I am driving to is that with all the perceived problems with the INSAS are there evolutionary tricks we missed. For example we saw that video of the stoppages in the LMG - so is that something that could be overcome with design tweaks?

I am no firearms expert but the fact that we are looking overseas for an infantry weapon sticks in my gullet so started researching!!

Jai Dogra!!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 08 May 2018 21:37

Thakur, Regarding the CRPF comment on the Ghatak wrt Ak 47, about plastic and looks tacky etc., how is its lethality? Its the same bullet. 7.62x39mm. Can we compare muzzle velocity and spin rate for the two?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 09 May 2018 00:09

ramana wrote:CRPF comment on the Ghatak wrt Ak 47, about plastic and looks tacky etc.


Similar comments were made about INSAS also. As long as the plastic holds up, and does not crack, under the extreme weather conditions in India, it should not be a problem.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 09 May 2018 02:04

My comment was does it kill?

Based on Wiki and OFB webpages.

Ghatak MV is 670m/s vs 715m/sec for AK-47.
So slight 45m/sec shortfall. But could depend on cartridge too.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 09 May 2018 02:16

Thakur_B wrote:^^ Both RFI and RFT are offering AKMs independent of each other and both have got decent orders for the same. RFI has orders from CRPF for ghatak and RFT has orders from police forces for TAR.

Edit: It is my guesstimate, but RFK might be behind the AK 103 push to keep their assembly lines working.


Wasn't there a news story during the RM's recent visit to Russia, that the GoI has decided that the OFB will produce the AK-103, in collaboration with the Russians, for the 'second-line' rifle requirement of the Indian Army?

I don't think the IA has accepted either the Ishapore or the Trichy prototytpes for 7.62mm rifle requirement. IMHO the best chance for the OFB to get at least part of the IA order, is to get the stamp of Russian collaboration.

For the 'first line' rifle requirement, I don't think the OFB has a chance. I think the IA will select a foreign (western) rifle to be produced in India by a private company. My bet is it will be the Israeli Galil to be produced in India by Punj Lloyd.

All the above is pure speculation on my part, straight out of my musharraf. :wink:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 09 May 2018 05:15

Kakkaji,

you mean the galil Ace yes?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 09 May 2018 07:26

Whichever Galil model fits the RFP. I can barely tell one end of a rifle from another. :wink:

In the Defexpo video by Danvir Singh, the ex-IA Colonel at the IWI Stall said they are submitting a Tavor and a Galil model against the RFP. I think that Galil model is the front runner.

Once again it is just an educated guess on my part. I am not an expert, nor do I have inside knowledge. But I am willing to bet $10 on it. :)

ramanaji: About the CRPF comment on the Ghatak - I have noticed that any soldiers who have used the AK-47 in CI Ops, become its diehard fans. Nothing else then passes muster.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 09 May 2018 08:52

Ah those painful videos!!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 09 May 2018 13:59

Has to be Hil Ace 52 because rhat is 7.72x51.
So we will also have 7.62x39 from OF.

What a dogs breakfast.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tsarkar » 09 May 2018 18:03

ks_sachin wrote:Tsarkar and Thakur_B do you have any opinions on milled Vs stamped receivers?

Milled receivers (SLR) have much smoother action but are heavy, require disciplined cleaning and precision machinery to manufacture, hence expensive.
Stamped receivers (AK & INSAS) dont have smooth action but tolerant to dust/mud/irregular cleaning and can be manufactured in Munger & Darra Adam Khel.

From a COIN perspective, AK wins hands down because troops are constantly patrolling for weeks requiring a lighter weapon that operates reliably with minimal/no cleaning. So for RR, CRPF, State Police AK is the best option

For a conventional war, that Pakistan has stopped fighting, SLR is a much better option because of accurate fire to relatively longer ranges. So for regular IA battalions and BSF, a 7.62 mm SLR makes better sense.

My personal favourite is SLR

Today, precision machining (including commercial industrial grade) has improved to the extent that high quality stamped parts can be manufactured.

The retired OFB workers and ex IA armourers are making quality AK-47 in Munger

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/north/s ... 2014-06-07
https://www.firstpost.com/india/made-in ... 59735.html
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 213_1.html

My personal experience with INSAS in late 90's early 00's was similar to what is written here http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9131 and http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2612

Check the journalist's comment below in the link - the endeavor to keep costs low resulted in poor materials and lower quality machinery being used that resulted in a very shoddy weapon.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 09 May 2018 19:09

tsarkar, Your assessment can't be made by military personnel in charge of rifle procurement?
Why all these conflicting statements and confusion?
Is it brochuritis or some thing else?


The logical conclusion is the INSAS 5.56 was wrong choice for India and was to copy NATO.
Who were the decision makers that pushed for this pop gun?

BTW the CRPF comment is clearly based on looks.
The technical specs show Ghatak is good.
Same bullet, same muzzle velocity.
and lighter gun.

One should look at lethality and not looks.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 10 May 2018 00:30

ramana wrote:tsarkar, Your assessment can't be made by military personnel in charge of rifle procurement?
Why all these conflicting statements and confusion?
Is it brochuritis or some thing else?


The logical conclusion is the INSAS 5.56 was wrong choice for India and was to copy NATO.
Who were the decision makers that pushed for this pop gun?

BTW the CRPF comment is clearly based on looks.
The technical specs show Ghatak is good.
Same bullet, same muzzle velocity.
and lighter gun.

One should look at lethality and not looks.

I was at ARDE when INSAS was being developed and also had conversations at MHOW...Interesting...

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 10 May 2018 05:16

SO how was the decision arrived at?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby JayS » 10 May 2018 11:14

tsarkar wrote:CRPF isnt too happy
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/c ... 2018-02-21
One of the first rifles to be tested for field performance has been the advanced version of Ghatak assault rifle. While its performance was noted satisfactory, but the CRPF top brass said that Ghatak did not have the same lethality of AK 47, which is a weapon of choice for close quarter combat. With its 7.62 X 39 mm dimension, Ghatak's advanced version was put forth as state-of-the-art assault rifle. However, field officers have given it a thumbs down. "Its body part is made up of plastic and which looks tacky gives an unreal feel", said an officer.


Sorry to be too skeptical (now a days I am skeptical of even positive comments attributed to un-named officers, we should not give them too much credit even if they fit one's own point of view for that particular matter), but how do we know its not a hit-job on Ghatak, plastic business...? I saw this report a few weeks ago on twitter to highlight difference in reporting for desi mall vs firang maal. Someone posted it alongside the One by Sandeep U in India Today itself where AK103 is said to have "Polymer components to reduce weight" while Ghatak is said to have "Plastic components". Given Sandeep U is far better reporter I may discount the difference in reporting, but how exactly the Plastic in Ghatak is different than "Polymer" in AK103..? The quote in the report above is attributed to an unnamed source. And even if its a personal bias of someone who is used to AK47 (as one poster has pointed out above) how much one should give importance to such comments..? Do we know any of the comments made on feel and lethality of the gun are made by DG CRPF or some other officer in a press conference or some on-record interaction with media..? Only one comment that CRPF is trying out various weapons and they would be happy to take any Made in India weapon which satisfies requirements. Rest of the following comments are not attributed to the DG directly.

The functional and performance shortcomings - the lethality is a critical point and should be and I am hopeful that it would be taken care of by the time it receives rectifications based on the field trials.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 10 May 2018 22:52

JayS, Since both fire the same bullet:7.62x39mm lethality is a function of the muzzle velocity and the rifling. The rifling gives accuracy at distance. MV is function of the barrel length.

I think even fancier would be polymeric composite parts.

What I am slowly realizing is if there is an import available, then the desi will get disparaged.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 12 May 2018 08:56

Ramana sir,

The galil Ace uses a ploymer lower receiver. Why are we so stuck on metal. Also the design kichdi was a mix of interesting req from Army but also a lack of thought on the part of the deaigners around design ergonomics. Design ergonomics only comes about if you have knowledge of designing and using firearms.
If you look at the ace some very simple things done to help the soldier. When i look at even the ghatak or the new 7.62x51 by ofb those thoughtful touches are missing.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Austin » 12 May 2018 09:37

Airborne Troops seen with AK-12 during V Day Parade

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Austin » 12 May 2018 12:00

Two major weapons manufacturers exit Indian army’s small arms tender

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/t ... 2018-05-12


HIGHLIGHTS
Colt & Beretta were offering weapons for 7.62x51 mm battle rifle and 5.56x45 mm carbine requirements
Army plans to import 72,000 assault rifles and 94,000 carbines on a fast track basis
The army hopes to complete the acquistion of all the weapons in 12 months

Global arms makers have been largely lukewarm to the armys small arms procurement. Two of the largest gunmakersFN Herstal of Belgium and Germanys Heckler & Koch did not even participate in the small arms tender.

Some clauses in the contract which have made it unappealing to foreign vendors include parking nearly 15 per cent of the value of the contract as a performance bank guarantee, the removal of the force majeur clause which allows a manufacturer to suspend a contract due to unforseen consequences like war or a natural disaster.

The foreign vendors too have to secure export licenses from their own governments in the limited time available. Other clauses which make the contract unappealing are clauses for the winning firm to deliver the first batch of 25,000 weapons (assault rifle and carbines) in the first nine months and the remainder within three months. This deadline can be extended only by another three months after which financial penalties kick in.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 13 May 2018 21:48

Image

^^ Unconfirmed: SCAR-L and SCAR-H being tried out at NSG facility at Manesar. An unknown number have been said to be inducted in NSG and Para-SF.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 14 May 2018 10:32

^^^ SCAR H / FN-2000 and P90 already operational with the SPG and Special Group

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 20 May 2018 12:16

rkhanna wrote:^^^ SCAR H / FN-2000 and P90 already operational with the SPG and Special Group


Yes, but the rumours are surrounding NSG ans Para-SF trying out SCAR-H/L


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