Small Arms Thread

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Jun 2018 08:19

Thakur_b

Thanks. Do visit DSA small arms who have made th fnfal modern. There is one vid on just the cosmetic changes. I will post links.

This is not a capability beyond us... heck

Sad...

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Jun 2018 08:24

Btw I am not intelligent enough to understand most of the stuff every one here is an expert on but thanks for insight.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Jun 2018 08:24

What are probs with MCIWS

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 09 Jun 2018 06:38

https://youtu.be/U6SRCpDZuNg

Thakue_b have a look

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 10 Jun 2018 09:20

Thakur_b you said ace and the ofb are quite similar. Having said that have you observed the charging handle on the ofb rifle. It so far ahead. We may have the same ossue with front hand guard..

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jun 2018 20:32

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 9108384770 --> Indian Army Madras Regiment sniper being briefed upon the Remington M2010 Enhanced Sniper Rifle while the spotter is equipped with Leupold Mk.4 Compact spotter scope. M2010 fires a .300 Winchester Magnum (7.62×67mm) round and is effective up to 1200 metres.

Image

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jun 2018 21:32

https://twitter.com/Parthu_Potluri/stat ... 5555943424 ---> Check out these panoramic quad-tube night vision goggles (model: BNVD-P) from Bangalore-based Tonbo Imaging, similar in layout & function to the GPNVG-18 worn by Navy SEALS during OBL raid.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jun 2018 21:34

https://twitter.com/Parthu_Potluri/stat ... 3969057793 ---> From the product description of the Staghound targeting system, it appears that Tonbo Imaging is also making meaningful strides in the field of White Phosphor-based lo lux image-intensifying tech:

https://tonboimaging.com/tonbo/products/staghound/

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jun 2018 21:35

Now that is COOL!!!!

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 7381235712 ---> COAS General Bipin Rawat trying out the Tonbo Imaging WolfPack multi aperture and multispectral real time panoramic imaging system which is designed to increase situational awareness.

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 13 Jun 2018 22:58

^^ It will be awesome if IA regularly starts buying from Tonbo.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sid » 14 Jun 2018 09:41

Rakesh wrote:Now that is COOL!!!!

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 7381235712 ---> COAS General Bipin Rawat trying out the Tonbo Imaging WolfPack multi aperture and multispectral real time panoramic imaging system which is designed to increase situational awareness.

Image


It's a Microsoft Hololens.

This is how it actually looks like.
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Neshant » 18 Jun 2018 11:42

What a shame.

Indian army plans to buy rifles from an overseas shopping spree rather than improving on the indegenous INSAS.

------

India Army is said to pare down rifles order to 250,000

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 450104.cms

A scouting team will be leaving later this month to meet with foreign rifle-makers including Colt’s Manufacturing Company LLC, Italy’s Fabbrica d’Armi Pietro Beretta S.p.A, Swiss Sig Sauer Inc., the Czech Republic’s Ceska Zbrojovka and Israel Weapons Industry Ltd. to identify the most suitable weapon, the person said.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Jun 2018 15:45

Neshant wrote:What a shame.

Indian army plans to buy rifles from an overseas shopping spree rather than improving on the indegenous INSAS.

------

India Army is said to pare down rifles order to 250,000

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 450104.cms

A scouting team will be leaving later this month to meet with foreign rifle-makers including Colt’s Manufacturing Company LLC, Italy’s Fabbrica d’Armi Pietro Beretta S.p.A, Swiss Sig Sauer Inc., the Czech Republic’s Ceska Zbrojovka and Israel Weapons Industry Ltd. to identify the most suitable weapon, the person said.


Better they go and get something that works. Improving the INSAS - thats a joke because after more than a decade of user feedback the design is still where it was. The new 7.62 version is no better - no originality. Just go see what people have done with the venerable FN FAL design.
And before you shoot me please spend a month looking at small arms design and then come back and tell us if the Army is justified or not (after comparing to the sorry offering from the OFB). Also look at all of Thakur_B's posts.
Mate infact just look at the Galil Ace 52 and compare that to our 7.62 OFB. The little things matter....

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 18 Jun 2018 18:53

^^^
Totally agree.
A rifle is an infantry's best friend. Designing it should be as much art as much science.
Western countries allow gun ownership and most designers are avid lovers of firearms. They not only know what is the science behind but also the feeling.
A rifle is such a personal thing that you cannot replicate unless you have the same love and adoration dedicated to it as the original designer.
Though it is better to have homemade options but sometimes it is not avoidable. Even the mighty MIC of USA imports H&K rifles for its SF.
We can save money from other indigenous options like NVD and lasers, but we need to indulge in this option.
But what I for the life of me cannot understand is why we need to import the MicroDots with each rifle since we already have an indigenous one. Can get another rifle for the price.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bart S » 18 Jun 2018 19:26

ks_sachin wrote:
Neshant wrote:What a shame.

Indian army plans to buy rifles from an overseas shopping spree rather than improving on the indegenous INSAS.

------

India Army is said to pare down rifles order to 250,000

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 450104.cms

A scouting team will be leaving later this month to meet with foreign rifle-makers including Colt’s Manufacturing Company LLC, Italy’s Fabbrica d’Armi Pietro Beretta S.p.A, Swiss Sig Sauer Inc., the Czech Republic’s Ceska Zbrojovka and Israel Weapons Industry Ltd. to identify the most suitable weapon, the person said.


Better they go and get something that works. Improving the INSAS - thats a joke because after more than a decade of user feedback the design is still where it was. The new 7.62 version is no better - no originality. Just go see what people have done with the venerable FN FAL design.
And before you shoot me please spend a month looking at small arms design and then come back and tell us if the Army is justified or not (after comparing to the sorry offering from the OFB). Also look at all of Thakur_B's posts.
Mate infact just look at the Galil Ace 52 and compare that to our 7.62 OFB. The little things matter....


As long as the OFB has a virtual monopoly on local small arms development, nothing much is going to improve. We need to get private companies involved and kick the lazy unionized parasites to the kerb.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Neshant » 20 Jun 2018 09:05

souravB wrote:^^^
Totally agree.
A rifle is an infantry's best friend. Designing it should be as much art as much science.
Western countries allow gun ownership and most designers are avid lovers of firearms. They not only know what is the science behind but also the feeling.


I wanted to say that western individuals have way more disposable income than the average Indian which allows them to indulge in such hobbies (i.e. designing & manufacturing guns) and get really good at it.

But that does not explain how China (where gun ownership is strictly prohibited) has managed to do a good job of (copying) Russian and now Western guns.

This is going to sound like a radical idea but how about the govt encouraging Tata or some big name company to buy out a medium size gun design/manufacturer in Eastern Europe, Israel or the West? Kind of like Tata buying Jaguar & Land Rover. Maybe have them design guns and run OFB's production of it.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Neshant » 20 Jun 2018 09:41

ks_sachin wrote:Better they go and get something that works. Improving the INSAS - thats a joke because after more than a decade of user feedback the design is still where it was. The new 7.62 version is no better - no originality.


The question is what is the cost of these other rifles.
We can't compare a Ferrari to a Hyundai because the costs are vastly different.

Serious question - is INSAS a bad rifle?
I ask this question not knowing too much about small arms.
Are you being too critical of it.

INSAS 7.62 is featured 2/3rds of the way into the video below (Expo 2018) :


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Neshant » 20 Jun 2018 09:52

More contenders for the Indian Army contract :





The gun sure looks fancy. But does fancy = better.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Jun 2018 11:57

Neshant

You have asked a couple of interesting questions. I will respond later tonight and if possible Thakur_B and other small arms experts can add.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 20 Jun 2018 12:19

Neshant wrote:Serious question - is INSAS a bad rifle?


Serious answer - depends on who you ask

Generally speaking it's best to ask the end users directly

There are good rifles and there are bad rifles. Some bad rifles can still be salvaged and turned into good ones

As hinted by ks_sachin, it requires the manufacturer to be customer-centric and take customer feedback seriously on it's merits

Here is an example of how a bad rifle was turned into a reasonably good one.

The Brits had to admit their goof up (of getting it made by a company with not too much past experience), swallow their pride and give it to their arch rivals/enemies, who got the rectifications done by one of their best developer-manufacturers. It may have helped their pride somewhat that H&K was owned by British Aerospace at the time..


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 20 Jun 2018 14:26

Neshant wrote:
This is going to sound like a radical idea but how about the govt encouraging Tata or some big name company to buy out a medium size gun design/manufacturer in Eastern Europe, Israel or the West? Kind of like Tata buying Jaguar & Land Rover. Maybe have them design guns and run OFB's production of it.

They kind of already are, that's what all the JVs are about. They cannot be gung-ho about it because it's perceived as unfair trade practice which China does so rampantly

But that does not explain how China (where gun ownership is strictly prohibited) has managed to do a good job of (copying) Russian and now Western guns.

Do we have any metric which proves a Chinese person has re-designed the guns? We should remember, Chinese have the moolah and the willingness to hire/buy any small/medium scale gun manufacturer to do that and then rapidly produce them in China.
Also we do not have any metric of how good a job the Chinese did while copying the rifles except for a few state media propaganda videos. They are yet to be battle tested and also in operational roles(firing on unarmed civilians do not count). INSAS for all its faults, is tested in operational roles and then is being ostracized.
Now lets assume the Chinese rifles are good enough, then let me put forth a radical idea (with the fear of me being perceived sarcastic but I am not). Why don't GOI buy rifles from the Chinese then? It's economical, Diplomatic and Strategic.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Jun 2018 15:33

The chinese type 95 is not a standard caliber!!!
AFAIK

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 20 Jun 2018 17:54

Neshant wrote:Serious question - is INSAS a bad rifle?


It is a good enough design, which is poorly manufactured. To put it in perspective, it is the same fundamental design as the SIG550 series being bought by the NSG (long-stroke gas piston action in 5.56x45mm). It can be simplified and modernized a bit, but the problem is in enforcing quality manufacturing.

I’m going to say something controversial here: the GOI will never privatize small arms manufacturing because of the internal security dangers of profit-driven businesses leaking weapons... so it better to setup OFB small-arms factories entirely staffed and run by immediate family members of infantrymen and CAPF personnel - people who have a direct stake in ensuring the quality and reliability of their work.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Jun 2018 18:33

Pargha even ak is long stroke.
Long stroke or short stroke or DI does not matter.
I put it to you that even with good build quality the design had things that xould have been done a lot better.
This 2018 and i look at the 7.62 insas and i immediately can see one problem not to mention additional options for weight reduction.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Jun 2018 18:39

But we can definitely move from good enough to very good....
Heck if i can understand assault rifle design and ergonomics yhen anyo e can!!!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Jun 2018 18:42

Even the OFB. When just need someone with imagination to fix the niggly bits, reengineer some bits and look at ergonomics...

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Jun 2018 18:42

Even the OFB. When just need someone with imagination to fix the niggly bits, reengineer some bits and look at ergonomics...

Copy some stuff from the ace 52!!!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Jun 2018 18:42

Even the OFB. When just need someone with imagination to fix the niggly bits, reengineer some bits and look at ergonomics...

Copy some stuff from the ace 52!!!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 20 Jun 2018 19:50

ks_sachin wrote:Pargha even ak is long stroke.
Long stroke or short stroke or DI does not matter.
I put it to you that even with good build quality the design had things that xould have been done a lot better.
This 2018 and i look at the 7.62 insas and i immediately can see one problem not to mention additional options for weight reduction.


Hi. Could you please elaborate. I am aware it might have posted earlier but the forums are generally not too search friendly.. and it seems some old posts have been lost (perhaps when the forums was down a couple of years ago)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 20 Jun 2018 21:29

ks_sachin wrote:Long stroke or short stroke or DI does not matter.


It matters a lot - a long-stroke gas-piston rifle is more tolerant of dirty ammunition, but direct impingement will choke very soon. It is easier to shoot precisely with DI rifles and make them lighter, but you lose the resiliency of the gas-piston rifles.

The SIG550 and INSAS selected the best-of-both-worlds: AK's resilient design and AR's fast-and-flat shooting 5.56x45mm caliber ammunition. The major difference between INSAS and SIG is the manufacturing quality... that gave SIG550 a future and INSAS a bad name.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Picklu » 20 Jun 2018 22:07

From OFB chaiwala:
a. The factories have to live with decade old equipment from lowest bidders and how they are still operating is a miracle.
b. Every sort of outsourcing deal has to go to the lowest bidder who operates coolie gang to manually produce the shoddiest output
The problem is systematic and blaming parasite union is meaning less.

Given the strategic situation of India, OFB is essential. Truely it. along with the PSU docks, are the bottomline of Indian security; the fancy items are mere toplines.

For a better India, it should be reformed in the similar lines of Nava Ratna rather than blind privatisation. But just like RAW, there are deeper cycle within cycle that prevents GOI from doing so.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Jun 2018 02:54

ParGha wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Long stroke or short stroke or DI does not matter.


It matters a lot - a long-stroke gas-piston rifle is more tolerant of dirty ammunition, but direct impingement will choke very soon. It is easier to shoot precisely with DI rifles and make them lighter, but you lose the resiliency of the gas-piston rifles.

The SIG550 and INSAS selected the best-of-both-worlds: AK's resilient design and AR's fast-and-flat shooting 5.56x45mm caliber ammunition. The major difference between INSAS and SIG is the manufacturing quality... that gave SIG550 a future and INSAS a bad name.

ParGha i did not mean tthat they did not matter. What i meant was that with the INSAS the mechanism did not matter as the build quality and certain design elements were poor and continue to be poor.

By the way the FNFAL was ahort stroke. Was it less reliable than the INSAS? It was defi itely easier to clean!!!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Katare » 21 Jun 2018 03:56

Army is hell bent on creating GSQR that DRDO products can’t meet but in last 10 years it has discovered that thise GSQR can’t be satisfied by global players either.

The game continues.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Jun 2018 04:38

Katare

With small arms it is a bit more nuanced. What part of the GSQR was not met?
Is it because we wNted multi caliber and ultimately the more complex the weapon is the more likely it is to have reliability issues.
I bet you a straight up 7.62 GSQR will not have those problems.
The INSAS met the GSQR but is that the only ultimate aim of the designers.
Some design elements that are lacking on the Insas have nothi.g to do with the GSQR.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Jun 2018 04:42

https://youtu.be/U6SRCpDZuNg

Please have a look at this guys and see hat is possible. You will recognise the FNFAL.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Katare » 21 Jun 2018 05:13

ks_sachin wrote:Katare

With small arms it is a bit more nuanced. What part of the GSQR was not met?
Is it because we wNted multi caliber and ultimately the more complex the weapon is the more likely it is to have reliability issues.
I bet you a straight up 7.62 GSQR will not have those problems.
The INSAS met the GSQR but is that the only ultimate aim of the designers.
Some design elements that are lacking on the Insas have nothi.g to do with the GSQR.


Man I don’t understand what you are trying to say. Read the standing committee report, the army said no one in the world have been able meet our requirements fir kast 8 years. If you want unabtonium you get nothing. Now they are planning to import smaller quantity on fast track basis but if no gun exists that meets GSQR what will they import? I suspect this fadt track drama is a way to get something on dilutedGSQR and than get OFB manufacture it on ToT.

Good bye domestic R&D and design!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Jun 2018 06:04

What i am saying katare sir is GSQR was crap because of multi cal requirements.
If they have a GSQR for a 7.62x51 it is likely to be met and hence ofbb claims that its latest rifle is meeting the latest GSQR req.
The problem sir is there is no domestic R&D in small arms.
I could be wrong but....
As I said I forsee problems with the latest ofb product bec of design

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Katare » 21 Jun 2018 06:26

Where and when did OFB say that?

Both it’s gun failed trials.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Jun 2018 07:36

Katare wrote:Where and when did OFB say that?

Both it’s gun failed trials.


Ah! I though I saw that in Sandeen Unnithan's vids.
Could be mistaken.

I thought that failure was more to do with the recoil issues and noise - which can be addressed but remember it is a 7.62X51 cartridge we are talking about.

But the other issues require a qualititative improvement in mindset - the OFB design shows a level of intellectual laziness.

Regards

Sachin

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 21 Jun 2018 11:35

ks_sachin wrote:https://youtu.be/U6SRCpDZuNg

Please have a look at this guys and see hat is possible. You will recognise the FNFAL.


Folding stock and adding of rails for Optics is a good change for the venerable FAL.
(Folding stock was added for the FNC version if i remember correctly)

Shortning of barrel length generally good for CQB/Urban scenario but might have recoil management issues and affect long range ballistics and accuracy.

As with most mods on original designs, it addresses a specific set of requirements (maybe directed by changed circumstances) while adding some compromises on the original set.

Please do elaborate your thoughts on the INSAS (specifically w.r.t the design itself and not the production quality). I tried, but couldnt find the earlier posts
(really wish there was a 'Bookmark this post' option)


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