Small Arms Thread
Re: Small Arms Thread
^^ Correct me if I am wrong, but Fn-Mag is designated mmg in Indian service.
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yup...and a mighty din it made during many "bada khanas".....Thakur_B wrote:^^ Correct me if I am wrong, but Fn-Mag is designated mmg in Indian service.
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Listen to the conversation...
An American soldier firing an Indian-made INSAS assault rifle in the 2017 Yudh Abhyas exercise
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZiUIZPB3pf/
An American soldier firing an Indian-made INSAS assault rifle in the 2017 Yudh Abhyas exercise
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZiUIZPB3pf/
Re: Small Arms Thread
Its smooth.Rakesh wrote:Listen to the conversation...
An American soldier firing an Indian-made INSAS assault rifle in the 2017 Yudh Abhyas exercise
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZiUIZPB3pf/
Good.
I like it.
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They mentioned something about range and daylight too ??
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And come to think, this is the weapon system that has been most reviled and abused for last 2 decades.
Shows the power of import lobby to influence narrative
Shows the power of import lobby to influence narrative
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That video needs to be trending everywhere just to embarrass the import lobby.... I hope the Army does not regret the switch to 7.62 at a later stage.... A battle rifle needs to be easy to shoot and live with.
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why should they be embarrassed? Their job is to get domestic substitute. Altruism is not work the world works.
also why should be be so pleased that some gora GI talks up the INSAS. Cos it fires well does not mean that it is effective in its complete life cycle although i allude more to our craven need for approval from gora sahib!
Its our weapon and should be proud and support it and refine - every one else be damned......
also why should the army regret the switch to 7.62 - that is if it has come to a considered decision rather than aping what every one else is doing. the switch to 5.56 was shortsighted IMO and betrayed some lack of future thinking. After all we already had significant experience of CI ops by time we starter thinking 5.56 even before IPKF..
also why should be be so pleased that some gora GI talks up the INSAS. Cos it fires well does not mean that it is effective in its complete life cycle although i allude more to our craven need for approval from gora sahib!
Its our weapon and should be proud and support it and refine - every one else be damned......
also why should the army regret the switch to 7.62 - that is if it has come to a considered decision rather than aping what every one else is doing. the switch to 5.56 was shortsighted IMO and betrayed some lack of future thinking. After all we already had significant experience of CI ops by time we starter thinking 5.56 even before IPKF..
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No one spoke here about needing "Gora" approval... I was talking in terms of import lobby and their chelas in the media constantly saying negative things about Indian systems in comparison to western ones. When soldiers from their "baap" ka army praise our rifle it is certainly mud on their faces. The 7.62 has certain glaring disadvantages in all out war as opposed to its advantages in CI ops. The new 5.56 development(1c?) by all accounts (including statement in parliament) works well and the sudden change of heart and caliber on the face of it is difficult to understand.
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Are we really expecting any soldier on a joint exercise dissing the weapon system of compatriot nation during the PR phase video recording and giving a real thoughts out?
The true evaluation wil be known if we get access to their debriefing videos (like in cope India case)
The true evaluation wil be known if we get access to their debriefing videos (like in cope India case)
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Sum Ji, even that might be true only if it was the primary reason of the exercise. IMVHO the more appropriate and true evaluation (covering accuracy, leathality, reliability, maintenance, logistics etc) is best received from the regular users viz our own forces and based over the past many years of usage. And a comparative evalutaion might be possible by our special forces who have access to and use comparative foreign equipmentsum wrote:Are we really expecting any soldier on a joint exercise dissing the weapon system of compatriot nation during the PR phase video recording and giving a real thoughts out?
The true evaluation wil be known if we get access to their debriefing videos (like in cope India case)
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What glaring deficiencies?Bharadwaj wrote:No one spoke here about needing "Gora" approval... I was talking in terms of import lobby and their chelas in the media constantly saying negative things about Indian systems in comparison to western ones. When soldiers from their "baap" ka army praise our rifle it is certainly mud on their faces. The 7.62 has certain glaring disadvantages in all out war as opposed to its advantages in CI ops. The new 5.56 development(1c?) by all accounts (including statement in parliament) works well and the sudden change of heart and caliber on the face of it is difficult to understand.
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Agree sirManish_P wrote:Sum Ji, even that might be true only if it was the primary reason of the exercise. IMVHO the more appropriate and true evaluation (covering accuracy, leathality, reliability, maintenance, logistics etc) is best received from the regular users viz our own forces and based over the past many years of usage. And a comparative evalutaion might be possible by our special forces who have access to and use comparative foreign equipmentsum wrote:Are we really expecting any soldier on a joint exercise dissing the weapon system of compatriot nation during the PR phase video recording and giving a real thoughts out?
The true evaluation wil be known if we get access to their debriefing videos (like in cope India case)
Thats why i dont see why we should be so excited that some Amirkhan soldier fired one round and called it "good"
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^^^^^^
Number of rounds carried, weight of the rifle and more recoil for the average infantryman.
Number of rounds carried, weight of the rifle and more recoil for the average infantryman.
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That was not a deficiency as such. Tech and doctrine and availability dictated that caliber and weight. Today's 7.62 is much lighter than our SLR.Bharadwaj wrote:^^^^^^
Number of rounds carried, weight of the rifle and more recoil for the average infantryman.
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An infantry man climbing up a hill is still going to have nearly twice the number of 5.56 rounds for the the same weight.... Recoil is still substantially less with a 5.56 despite today's technology.
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However battle experience shows 5.56mm is not doing the job. It wounds rather than kill.Bharadwaj wrote:An infantry man climbing up a hill is still going to have nearly twice the number of 5.56 rounds for the the same weight.... Recoil is still substantially less with a 5.56 despite today's technology.
The original switch/the move was wrong.
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This is certainly true in the Counter ops that our Armed forces are currently engaged in(a lot of ak types already used though)... But even here the terrorist pigs may end up wearing better gear to counter a caliber change. The original multi caliber tender actually makes sense when you think about it. Unfortunately none of the imported maal lived up to expectations and the Army appears to have lost patience with mciws or advanced rifle or whatever it was called.ramana wrote:However battle experience shows 5.56mm is not doing the job. It wounds rather than kill.Bharadwaj wrote:An infantry man climbing up a hill is still going to have nearly twice the number of 5.56 rounds for the the same weight.... Recoil is still substantially less with a 5.56 despite today's technology.
The original switch/the move was wrong.
Last edited by Bharadwaj on 28 Sep 2017 23:15, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Small Arms Thread
But why did Army switch to 5.56. Wasn't it because the SLR long barrel and strong recoil were an issue in IPKF operations. Can that be sorted?
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Just to illustrate, watch from 4:00 mark, it shows the difference between 5.56 and 7.62. (M16 vs AK 47)ramana wrote:However battle experience shows 5.56mm is not doing the job. It wounds rather than kill.Bharadwaj wrote:An infantry man climbing up a hill is still going to have nearly twice the number of 5.56 rounds for the the same weight.... Recoil is still substantially less with a 5.56 despite today's technology.
The original switch/the move was wrong.
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I'm confused. What 7.62 are we talking about ? The 7.62x39 (the intermediate round used in AK47) or the 7.62x51 (the SLR full rifle round - used before we switched to 5.56) ?
I thought we wanted to go to 7.62x51 ?
I thought we wanted to go to 7.62x51 ?
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I do not think anyone is saying that and neither do we need their approval on what is good and what is bad.sum wrote:Thats why i dont see why we should be so excited that some Amirkhan soldier fired one round and called it "good"
darshhan saar summed it up best ---> "And come to think, this is the weapon system that has been most reviled and abused for last 2 decades."
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Folks:
I am dying to see pictures of our troops in Kashmir operations wearing the new bulletproof helmets.
Earlier reports said that the first lot will be received in August and will be distributed first to the frontline units, but I have not seen any pictures yet. What happened? Our boys have been fighting for long with headgear that does not provide adequate protection.
I am dying to see pictures of our troops in Kashmir operations wearing the new bulletproof helmets.
Earlier reports said that the first lot will be received in August and will be distributed first to the frontline units, but I have not seen any pictures yet. What happened? Our boys have been fighting for long with headgear that does not provide adequate protection.
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New helmets have been seen on Para and some Ghatak units. some pictures around. That being said. If they received new kit in Aug it will be somewhile before it gets operational. Just because kit is issued it does not get deployed straight into combat.Kakkaji wrote:Folks:
I am dying to see pictures of our troops in Kashmir operations wearing the new bulletproof helmets.
Earlier reports said that the first lot will be received in August and will be distributed first to the frontline units, but I have not seen any pictures yet. What happened? Our boys have been fighting for long with headgear that does not provide adequate protection.
The soldiers down to the platoon level have to get used to moving and shooting with the new kit. Once that is done Commanders will deem kit operational and send soldiers out with it.
Point being (even for something like helmets) - if a soldier is not accustomed to it, has not trained with it - it could lead to less than optimal performances which could get him killed. Soldier's drill in their kit so that it becomes like second skin to them.
Take the example of ballistic shields for example. BS have been with forces (NSG/CRPF/RR/SF) for sometime now. yet to see active deployment. Only Now (after nearly a year and half) do you see NSG doing live training with it at malls etc
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Kakkaji, those helmets would first show up on parade grounds and for photo op exercises, just like the knee pads and elbow pads our jawans wear in yudh abhyas.
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A cool video that shows how suppressors work.
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Detailed review of JVPC- Joint Venture Protective Carbine by Sandeep Unnithan
The video includes single hand firing of JVPC by Sandeep Unnithan
The video includes single hand firing of JVPC by Sandeep Unnithan
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^^ Looks like a bueat. Again with a Silencer with look way TFTA
That being said i wish OFB would have given Sandeep a gun that had been well oiled. The Magazine and Charging Handle looked tougher to slide than needed to be.
That being said i wish OFB would have given Sandeep a gun that had been well oiled. The Magazine and Charging Handle looked tougher to slide than needed to be.
Re: Small Arms Thread
The one that he shot with was an older model. The newer model with the special coating that he showed before the firing demo doesn't require any oil!!rkhanna wrote:^^ Looks like a bueat. Again with a Silencer with look way TFTA
That being said i wish OFB would have given Sandeep a gun that had been well oiled. The Magazine and Charging Handle looked tougher to slide than needed to be.
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yes sir, the original logic was 5.56 will wound, and wounded soldiers will engage more soldiers to tend him = less foe firing surely an imagination by a desk bound babu.ramana wrote:However battle experience shows 5.56mm is not doing the job. It wounds rather than kill.Bharadwaj wrote:An infantry man climbing up a hill is still going to have nearly twice the number of 5.56 rounds for the the same weight.... Recoil is still substantially less with a 5.56 despite today's technology.
The original switch/the move was wrong.
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My bad. Watched the video on mute. However i was referring to the new gun onlee. the Magazine and Charging handle didnt seem as smooth as i had hoped.Bart S wrote:The one that he shot with was an older model. The newer model with the special coating that he showed before the firing demo doesn't require any oil!!rkhanna wrote:^^ Looks like a bueat. Again with a Silencer with look way TFTA
That being said i wish OFB would have given Sandeep a gun that had been well oiled. The Magazine and Charging Handle looked tougher to slide than needed to be.
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niran wrote:yes sir, the original logic was 5.56 will wound, and wounded soldiers will engage more soldiers to tend him = less foe firing surely an imagination by a desk bound babu.ramana wrote:
However battle experience shows 5.56mm is not doing the job. It wounds rather than kill.
The original switch/the move was wrong.
IIRC this came out of studies by the US military and their experience with actual conflicts. And it still holds true for regular warfare where you are generally fighting a war of attrition against a trained enemy. Where it comes up short is in counter insurgency especially against drug fueled suicide attackers of the Talibunny variety.
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Where it also came short was against advances and improvements in body armor/protection
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It also depends on the the operation theater in commercial warfare, north of Zojila where there is very little vegetation or in the Rajastan desert where engagement ranges will be greater the 7.62 *51 will have an advantage, where the vegetation is higher in Punjab and much of Kashmir LOC bordering Jammu, Poonch and the Valley where due to heavy vegetation infantry engagement is probably 100-200 meters the 5.56 should have less recoil, more ammo and adequate for killing.
Against Drug induced talibani variety with engagement less than 50-100 ms the AK series 7.62 *39 is the best with lesser recoil than the 7.62*51 Nato but more stopping power than the 5.56 is best suited, it is like we need our infantry to have 3 different rifles for COIN, thick vegetation borders and sparsly vegetated areas plus various MMG variations and sub machine guns for drivers, JCO's, artillery crews etc.
Against Drug induced talibani variety with engagement less than 50-100 ms the AK series 7.62 *39 is the best with lesser recoil than the 7.62*51 Nato but more stopping power than the 5.56 is best suited, it is like we need our infantry to have 3 different rifles for COIN, thick vegetation borders and sparsly vegetated areas plus various MMG variations and sub machine guns for drivers, JCO's, artillery crews etc.
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Very nice video. The gun looks TFTA and rock solid to my fata Abdul eyes. I feel suddenly a lot has started happening on the small arms front.Kakarat wrote:Detailed review of JVPC- Joint Venture Protective Carbine by Sandeep Unnithan
The video includes single hand firing of JVPC by Sandeep Unnithan
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Gurus, most armies don't use drum magazines, but wouldn't that be better as number of reloads will be lower.
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Its to do with logistic tail required to support the infantryman and also the load which a modern soldier is expected to carry. I have experience of both 7.62mm * 51 and 5.56mm and I prefered the 5.56mm any day.Karthik S wrote:Gurus, most armies don't use drum magazines, but wouldn't that be better as number of reloads will be lower.
The issue is that modern armies are pulling too many CT duties and 5.56mm is simply not suitable for CT duty....as an infantryman in a normal war I wanted the 5.56mm since it forced the enemy soldiers to rescue a wounded comrade because its not nice to have a friend screaming there head off if they have been wounded on the battlefield trust me nothing is more disconcerting to an infantryman than that.
In CT duty I want a round which totally incapacitates a terrorist when it hits them or for example if a round goes into the engine block of a vehicle I knew that the 7.62mm * 51 would crack that engine block in two and stop that vehicle dead.
Its a matter of balance
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Drum or Helical mags (especially the older designs) were generally heavier (causing fatigue in the arms of the shooter), complex (more moving parts), prone to jams/malfunction, expensive and a bit difficult to carry on one's person. Their shape/bulk also lead to more chances of bumping when moving in confined spaces, diving to prone position etc and subsequent risk of malfunction. Another point was one could carry say 2 drum mags. If you experienced one mag failure then you had only one more mag. So a 50/50 chance. Whereas the same soldier typically carried between 5 to 7 regular mags. Failure in 1 or 2 would still give him enough functioning mags to remain in the fight.
Basically the disadvantages outnumbered the advantage (less reloading in a firefight).
Helical mags are good in games though
Basically the disadvantages outnumbered the advantage (less reloading in a firefight).
Helical mags are good in games though