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Small Arms Thread

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Viv S
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 28 Oct 2016 18:49

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Feels like being Vidur speaking to Dhristhrashtra here. No amount of evidence will convince them because they wont read it. I have posted several examples and links but the Viv S of this world will have to spend a few hours reading and then understanding.

And your examples and links will help me understand why there are only 119 Arjuns in service? Or why the MCAR was cancelled?

Unless the MoD was responsible, 'but the MoD did XYZ' is not a justification, it is a diversionary argument.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby deejay » 28 Oct 2016 18:50

^^^ So who is absolving Services of all blame. Read through my posts. There was a term used Hashish Traders. I did not like the usage in the way it was.

MOD sits at the fountain head. All three Services are undergoing pains of procurement. Focus on MOD and a lot of the problem will vanish. Focus on the services, one set of the problems will be replaced by the other because MOD will go atlas shrugged.
I know poor joke

P.S. I am not blaming the Navy at all. I am just showing that things are same across Services. But your lens your world view.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 28 Oct 2016 21:00

Viv S wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:Feels like being Vidur speaking to Dhristhrashtra here. No amount of evidence will convince them because they wont read it. I have posted several examples and links but the Viv S of this world will have to spend a few hours reading and then understanding.

And your examples and links will help me understand why there are only 119 Arjuns in service? Or why the MCAR was cancelled?

Unless the MoD was responsible, 'but the MoD did XYZ' is not a justification, it is a diversionary argument.


Making you understand anything is certainly not my intention. Impossible to get logic and facts through when ego holds sway. Vidur learnt it the hard way in Mahabharat. There are a lot of posters here who I would engage because I learn so much from them...Karan, Ramana, Rohit, Shiv, Rahul, the list goes on .... But there are some that only subtract from the discussion and are driven by huge ego inversely proportional to their contributions. This was an excellent discussion on small arms tactics where everybody was learning something and you come and blow it of course with your disinformation. You bring the quality of discourse down.

I have yet to see one post from you which adds to the information quotient on BRF. Forget that, I have yet to see a properly crafted, logical analytical answer. Lies and innuendos sure....smoke and mirror...without question....but any way lets say Kejriwal and Barkha ji ki jai and leave it at that.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 28 Oct 2016 23:23

deejay wrote:^^^ So who is absolving Services of all blame. Read through my posts. There was a term used Hashish Traders. I did not like the usage in the way it was.

If you read my post again, you'll see it wasn't in defence of the 'hashish traders' characterization, it was specific to the issue at hand i.e the IA's screwy choices when it comes to the rifle procurement, and systematic deficiencies that led up it.

MOD sits at the fountain head. All three Services are undergoing pains of procurement. Focus on MOD and a lot of the problem will vanish. Focus on the services, one set of the problems will be replaced by the other because MOD will go atlas shrugged.

The MoD isn't a holy cow hereabouts (or anywhere for that matter). It routinely and deservedly gets brickbats for its decisions (or indecisions). But that doesn't excuse the IA from, among other things, delivering GSQRs so absurd that H&K and FN decide to sit it out.

P.S. I am not blaming the Navy at all. I am just showing that things are same across Services. But your lens your world view.

There is unfortunately a very clear distinction between the services on certain matters, particularly with respect to indigenisation.

Indian Naval Indigenisation Plan 2015-2030

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 28 Oct 2016 23:32

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Making you understand anything is certainly not my intention. Impossible to get logic and facts through when ego holds sway. Vidur learnt it the hard way in Mahabharat. There are a lot of posters here who I would engage because I learn so much from them...Karan, Ramana, Rohit, Shiv, Rahul, the list goes on .... But there are some that only subtract from the discussion and are driven by huge ego inversely proportional to their contributions. This was an excellent discussion on small arms tactics where everybody was learning something and you come and blow it of course with your disinformation. You bring the quality of discourse down.

I have yet to see one post from you which adds to the information quotient on BRF. Forget that, I have yet to see a properly crafted, logical analytical answer. Lies and innuendos sure....smoke and mirror...without question....but any way lets say Kejriwal and Barkha ji ki jai and leave it at that.

Unusual post Akshayji. For one, there wasn't 'an excellent discussion' on tactics going on just before I interrupted and blew it away (hop back to the last page and check it out). For another... 'lies, innuendo, disinformation, smoke-and-mirror', I never thought of my posts as theatrical before. Interesting perspectives one hears everyday.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 29 Oct 2016 08:28

Cross post:
SSridhar wrote:‘Dhaka attack rifles made in Bengal by Munger gunsmiths trained by Pakistani experts' - Saibal Gupta, ToI

What the heck!
Assault rifles used in the Gulshan cafe attack in Dhaka on July 1 were made in Bengal with the help of Pakistani experts, one of the six terrorists arrested by Kolkata STF in September in connection with the Khagragarh blast has told NIA sleuths.

According to the arrested terrorist, Pakistani tribal gunsmiths clandestinely visited Malda to train gunsmiths from Munger, who set up base in the border district to make AK-22 assault rifles. These weapons were then smuggled into Bangladesh via Chapainawabgunj. The NIA investigators suspect the Pakistanis who conducted the training were from the Darra Adam Khel community that resides in a village located between Peshawar and Kohat. The community is believed to regularly help the Taliban in duplicating modern weapons.

"We aren't sure yet but the language they mentioned is spoken in and around the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province of Pakistan where the village is located," a senior NIA officer said. Bangladesh has already alleged that the weapons used in the Holey Artisan bakery attack were sourced from across the border. The country's counterterrorism and trans-national crime chief, Monirul Islam, had categorically mentioned Munger in this connection. Thereafter, Bihar police had launched an investigation into the matter.

But what has intrigued the NIA officers is the duplication of AK-22 rifles instead of the AK-47, which is more popular among both terrorists and security agencies. A semi-automatic rifle originally manufactured in Romania, AK-22 is uncommon in India, and hence, difficult to duplicate.

"The uncomplicated AK-22 is a low-range weapon, easy to use by even greenhorns and has a short range. It was the perfect weapon for the youngsters who carried out the terror attack in the Dhaka bakery," an NIA officer said.

If expert gunsmiths did come from Darra Adam Khel to train men in Malda, investigation agencies have reasons to worry. For, these Pakistani tribals can copy nearly any weapon, from pen pistols and hand-grenades to automatic rifles and anti-aircraft guns. Darra gunsmiths are said to have the ability to duplicate any new rifle within 10 days.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 29 Oct 2016 13:12

^^

I stumbled on to a video made by you a long time ago on Pakistan (brilliant stuff) which had a clip about their small arms copying industry.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 29 Oct 2016 13:28

^^^^^
While Pakistan has a well-developed small arms copying industry in Khyber Pass region, so does India in various parts (Munger, South UP, NE Indian states Orissa, Kashmir etc.). However it must be remembered that these small shops use rather inferior quality materials and techniques to manufacture their firearms. E.g. the steel for a lot of Khyber Pass rifles are made using stolen and worn out railway tracks. They may look the part, but they aren't exactly known for reliability, strength and longetivity. There is a good reason why even the Pakistani military doesn't use these Khyber pass smiths to make small arms.

While it is one thing to hammer a piece of steel into the shape of a receiver, it is another thing to apply proper heat treatment after shaping. And this is where many of the Khyber pass gunsmiths fall short, because they lack the proper equipment, training and knowledge to do so. A Khyber pass copy of a Lee-metford rifle may look close to the real thing, but often lacks the strength of a real Lee-metford rifle. Bear in mind that original Lee-Metfords were made in the 19th century and Khyber pass copies made in the 21st century are often weaker than original ones.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 29 Oct 2016 13:30

Read page 74 as a start Viv S. And please see the video link I posted. It is Col Lalit Rai speaking on how his battalion 1/11 GR (Capt Manoj Pandey PVC fame) was inducted, what are the issues a new CO has to deal with, how they came to be assigned their task, and how they did it. And why and how Capt Manoj Pandey PVC made the supreme sacrifice....

I know your attention span is not very long but I am posting another one here - its very short. About how 2 Raj Rif took Tololing from the eyes of 1 survivor of a 10 man section (including Major Vivek Gupta MVC Coy Cdr). Do see it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzkm-yWXmdc

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 29 Oct 2016 13:32

Please just spend a few mins seeing these videos.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 29 Oct 2016 13:41

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Read page 74 as a start Viv S. And please see the video link I posted. It is Col Lalit Rai speaking on how his battalion 1/11 GR (Capt Manoj Pandey PVC fame) was inducted, what are the issues a new CO has to deal with, how they came to be assigned their task, and how they did it. And why and how Capt Manoj Pandey PVC made the supreme sacrifice....

I know your attention span is not very long but I am posting another one here - its very short. About how 2 Raj Rif took Tololing from the eyes of 1 survivor of a 10 man section (including Major Vivek Gupta MVC Coy Cdr). Do see it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzkm-yWXmdc

You have the wrong thread. None of what you've posted is relevant to the debate at hand. Neither Capt Pandey nor Maj Gupta had anything to do with the MCAR or Arjun programs.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 29 Oct 2016 13:55

Your mentality sickens me. You don't even have a few minutes to see what these martyrs did ?? There is no debate you bloody idiot, I was just trying to show you that we were discussing tactics and these were examples of it. To show you form their perspective what they did and why.

But you have your head up your backside so much that I feel ashamed of myself that I allowed these martyrs to be insulted by an asshole like you.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 29 Oct 2016 14:11

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Your mentality sickens me. You don't even have a few minutes to see what these martyrs did ?? There is no debate you bloody idiot, I was just trying to show you that we were discussing tactics and these were examples of it. To show you form their perspective what they did and why.

But you have your head up your backside so much that I feel ashamed of myself that I allowed these martyrs to be insulted by an asshole like you.

Its blatantly clear you're dragging the country's martyrs into an entirely unrelated debate to score some sort of brownie points and then making it worse by cooking up some imaginary 'insults' to their memory.

We have threads on BRF where their memories can be preserved without raking them for cheap point scoring.


Profiles in Heroism: Archive

Kargil War Thread - VI (where Col Rai's speech has already been posted)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 29 Oct 2016 14:48

MoD's shopping spree break-up table


Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Lisa » 29 Oct 2016 15:02

vaibhav.n wrote:MoD's shopping spree break-up table


I am not sure this list is true. Who would be buying 60,000 rounds of 7.62 mm ammunition. At a fire rate of 600 rounds per min, we are talking of 100 mins of sustained fire. If you told me it was 60 million, that would be more believable.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 29 Oct 2016 15:12

Akshay Kapoor wrote:^^

I stumbled on to a video made by you a long time ago on Pakistan (brilliant stuff) which had a clip about their small arms copying industry.

:D LOL Yes there is one.

It's a cottage industry, but I have read that small arms manufacture Indian Indian too *Bengal, Bihar, UP, Kashmir (?) are cottage industries - which are tightly regulated when they are discovered. Many murders are committed by nifty looking copies of Beretta or some similar brand selling at 1/20 the price.

Metallurgy and reliability do not seem to be a big issue at those prices

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 29 Oct 2016 16:41

With exception of ATGM and launchers, everything else should be available from the OFB. What am I missing?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 29 Oct 2016 23:41

Pratyush wrote:With exception of ATGM and launchers, everything else should be available from the OFB. What am I missing?


That the OFB fell short on production?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 30 Oct 2016 04:42

Lisa wrote:
vaibhav.n wrote:MoD's shopping spree break-up table


I am not sure this list is true. Who would be buying 60,000 rounds of 7.62 mm ammunition. At a fire rate of 600 rounds per min, we are talking of 100 mins of sustained fire. If you told me it was 60 million, that would be more believable.

If you look at the table, that's for PKT guns on tanks, not for soldiers in the field. This is 7.62x54mmR ammo, not 7.62x51 or 7.62x39 ammo. By the way, in case you're wondering, the R at the end indicates that this is a rimmed cartridge type.

Pratyush wrote:With exception of ATGM and launchers, everything else should be available from the OFB. What am I missing?

Does OFB even make 7.62x54mmR ammo? It doesn't appear to be listed on their webiste. Also, perhaps the OFB can't meet these procurement requirements in the time period of 3 months, or perhaps these are to acquire additional stocks above what OFB already has the capacity to manufacture?
Last edited by ArmenT on 30 Oct 2016 15:34, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2016 07:29

If OFB can manufacture X million rounds of item A, but the nation requires 1.5X or 2X million rounds we have to import. Period. War and deaths at border are too serious for bean counting now when 10 years were wasted by a corrupt government. It is likely that certain people are getting a pounding at the border that they have not seen for a while, but should have experienced earlier

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 30 Oct 2016 08:30

Kunal Biswas has done a write up on latest version of INSAS/Excalibur/Mk1C
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/thre ... st-1221347
Kunal Biswas wrote:Unexpected at best, Again... :)

==============
==============

Image

Image

Unlike what i saw previously in 2014, The new Excalibur 2015 looks more of a flushed design of much like improved 1B1 but with notable differences in receiver design, Hand guard comes with its own built in quad-rails, Its barrel is now little shorter by 3mm, With new muzzle brake and new folding stock made of metal, It retain other features of both Excalibur and 1B1 improved


Image

Unlike former design this design has a quad rail built in on hand guard, And fiber quality is much better than its former design too.



Image

Now lets see some details in selector switch, S for semi auto, R for safety and A for automatic, This is same with former design, But much cleaner without much rebids around.



Image
The pistol grip is retain from former design, Its simple and large and wide for gripping.




Image
Here the Rifle is in folded butt configuration, To be frank the size in this configuration was lesser its previous form but the folding stock is now in metal, This is perfect and impressive in CQB ops, where fighting is in tight corners


Similarly for Ghatak
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/thre ... st-1220915
Kunal Biswas wrote:Image


At first look & touch, The rifle is clean and compact, It was lighter compare to Bulgarian AK when holding, When loaded this may probably weight 4kgs unlike Bulgarian ones are is 4.5 kg full loaded, It was pleasure to hold this Rifle.

This Rifle is design for spray and pray much like AK & AKM which are for CQB ops, Though the Rifle retain AKM`s major parts but twist resides in its sights and working mechanism which are related to INSAS 1B1.

What makes Ghatak looks different from his brother AKM is the overall ergonomic from hand guard to pistol grip and sights specifically for Indian soldiers and the training he gets, The rifle feels is durable yet smooth, Ghatak is indeed a improvement over Bulgarian and Romanian AKs in service, However a folded butt-stock would be really handy in CQB.

I was most impressed with the fiber quality and the sights that Rifle offers compare to present AKM under service ( Bulgarian as well as Romanian ) It is unfortunate that i cannot used this rifle over firing range to know full extend of its capability and perform-ace.

Following post will contain both Images and comments on specific parts of the rifle that i find interesting most.

Hand Guard

Image

Image

The most appealing part of this rifle are its hand guard due to its ergonomic design, the tactical hand-guard has build in quad rail ( Mil specs ) but has much surface covers with smooth fiber, Unlike the once made of complete aluminum are uncomfortable when used in long run without using gloves, In our Army and paramilitary gloves are not an part of fighting kit, Keeping this in mind the design solves the problem.

Image

Having quad rail, The side rails are most resourceful which are again missing from present serving AK and AKMs, for mounting flash light and essential gadgets in today's warfare such as AV/PEQ-2A or AV/PEQ-15A.

============>>

Image

==============

Overall the hand-guard design is well designed for Indian requirement and needs of Indian solider with respect to his training .

Iron Sights

Image

The Iron sights are most interesting feature on this Assault rifle and perhaps impressed me the most, The front sights are H&K style front sights, Where as the rear sight is hybrid AK and INSAS 1B1 leaf sight though not fold-able.

Image

This gives you much faster and better sight picture, Basically gives you what INSAS 1B1 gives you with its leaf sight, Such a feature will boost confidence while engaging targets at medium range with far better accuracy then using open sights trying to find the tip between the rear sights.

This feature also free the solider from getting new training while adapting to new weapon at range which is solider friendly.


=========>>

Picture used for only Representation of sight picture of AR15 / Ghatak AR

Image

=============
=============

Image

Image

The rear sight has adjustable wind age and elevation, The range can be set to 1000 meters but effectiveness of the weapon is best 300 meters which is best for Close combat and majority of regular engagements.

===============
===============

Though their is chance for development, As its would be highly welcome step if the iron sights get iridium iron sights such as below one.

Image

Receiver,Gas block & Muzzle brake

Image

The basic outer look of the receiver is same as other AK`s around the world, It has the similar selector switch which has similar modes, One is semi other is fully auto and safety, The cocking / charging handle are all similar to an AK`s, However the magazine release and trigger so does assembly is from INSAS 1B1 when looked closely.

The receiver is most mysterious part of this rifle, As its looks similar to any other AK`s in the world while its internal working makes its most different than other AK`s around the world.


Image

Here the 45 degree gas block is originally from AK design, The barrel is chromed line and its a 16inch one, The front sight is H&K style and the muzzle brake is slant one like found on original design, The muzzle brake is a simple yet efficient design which effectively reduce muzzle climb and rightward muzzle drift during rapid fire.

==============
==============

Having used INSAS 1b1 mostly will always like and wish to see INSAS 1B1 muzzle break on the barrel as its much more efficient design, So does same metallurgy or better used on INSAS Excalibur so it gets much more lighter, Though nothing wrong with present setup as it clears user trails already, But such improvements can be handy for much efficient design in future.

Magazine

Image

The Magazine here is a license copy of Bulgarian Waffle style 30rnd AK magazine, This get really heavy when fully loaded nearly around 700gms, And their are metal tabs in this which stop it from shredding, Its perhaps the best choice for Ghatak as its this magazine is consider best design.

The design is best trade off between strength, Reliability and durability, The magazine has steel reinforcement at various places which increase its durability over other fiber magazine available for AK, Its solid design for Indian requirement which can take harsh punishment from a solider and from nature.

But, personally i believe it would be logical to go for a shorter Magazine of 22rnds just like on INSAS 1B1, Not because of excess ammunition or anything of such logic but merely due to excess weight, The 22 rnd magazine of 7.62m3 will surely less weight and can be around 500gms from 700gms of 30rnd magazine, Keeping in mind a foot soldier always wish for a lighter equipment.

============
============

Picture for only representation of 20rnd 7.62M43 magazine.

Image


Cheers ! :)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 30 Oct 2016 15:24

Now lets see some details in selector switch, S for semi auto, R for safety and A for automatic, This is same with former design, But much cleaner without much rebids around.


Thakur ji,

Thank you for the informative post.

Minor nitpick. We follow the British Army system for small arms terminology. S is safe, R is repeating(single shot) and A is automatic.

Another good thing is they have straightened the trigger on the Excalibur a common grouse with troops. The flash hider still looks iffy but those are minor issues.

All in all quality looks much better, remains to be seen if OFB can replicate it over a larger order quantity.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 30 Oct 2016 15:56

the receiver cover still looks like it came out of darra adam khel

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 30 Oct 2016 15:57


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 30 Oct 2016 16:04

While emergency procurement is different kettle of fish and we are not equipped to comment on it on emergent basis but we must plan to develop numerous rifle designs for long term. The successful example is Competition for developing 7.62-39 rifle between three OFB factories leading to Ghatak. We must develop variants of 7.62-51 caliber rifle from Excalibur, MCIWS and Ghatak designs and offer them up for testing to Army. Incidentally it seems that 40mm UBGL is a major success. Around 30,000 were ordered and 20,000 delivered.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 30 Oct 2016 16:17

exactly like i had predicted post uri revenge, special forces requirements will be fast tracked and specific ops readiness requirements will be made.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 30 Oct 2016 17:53

Karan M wrote:the receiver cover still looks like it came out of darra adam khel


Should have provided a bolt catch and release system at least.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby malushahi » 30 Oct 2016 18:38

Karan M wrote:the receiver cover still looks like it came out of darra adam khel


darra knock-offs in general have a much better finish and appearance. check these out.

http://visitpak.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... l-guns.jpg

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/ADWGF8/traditi ... ADWGF8.jpg

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ShauryaT » 30 Oct 2016 21:52

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Please just spend a few mins seeing these videos.
thanks for sharing.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 31 Oct 2016 06:05

malushahi wrote:
Karan M wrote:the receiver cover still looks like it came out of darra adam khel


darra knock-offs in general have a much better finish and appearance. check these out.

http://visitpak.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... l-guns.jpg

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/ADWGF8/traditi ... ADWGF8.jpg

I must point out that while there are a few better looking weapons in this photograph we have no proof other than the Paki who posted them to prove that they are really dara--admakhel made. That aside the photo also has some of the worst looking weapons I have seen. For the second time today I am reminded of the article that was posted in the other forum:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/01/ ... wildfires/

Misinformation online is very difficult to correct. Confirmation bias is extremely powerful. Once people have found "evidence" of their views, external and contradicting versions are simply ignored.



In that image one can choose to look at the better finished weapons or the ugly one. But if we are looking to prove that Darra Adamkhel weapons are better than OFB then our eyes look at the good looking ones only and we have "confirmation bias" based on an image with no firm proof thatt the image represents reality. Reality is not something that is sought conistently

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 31 Oct 2016 06:52

http://i.dawn.com/primary/2016/07/57999d290c059.jpg

It is so easy to fool ourselves and everyone else. Compared with the Turkish/Bulgarian version that is said to have been copied in that image the Darra Adamkhel version looks like a cheap plastic toy


Image

Is it really necessary to compare and say Paki actress much fairer than Indian actress? What is the need to pull out a Paki comparison to run down something that may not be that good in India like "Paki men more handsome". "Paki motorways better" etc?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby malushahi » 31 Oct 2016 07:20

dhanvantri ji, i see little need to go postal.

pliss to check the picture that karan pointed out and try to associate words like "craft" and "smith" with it.

a school kid would do a better job cutting sheet metal. if this is the piece ofb finds fit, warts and all, to be sent as an exhibit, then shame on them. to the darra-smtih's credit, even if they are able to get that finish on some pieces (meant to be bait-and-switch marketing pieces) with the most rudimentary of tools, versus the display piece seen here backed by the might (tax money) of the indian republic, then more shame on ofb.

that piece may look like a toy, but you can be sure it will not take out a chunk from someone's cheek or thumb.

now if the grouse is that a darra (or shitistan) comparison was used then i pray that ofb feel a millionth of the rush of blood that you do. to that i would reiterate the darra comparison a million times more.

re: confirmation bias, one would gladly take that allegation if it were enough to fix ofb. it did fix the problems with mig-21. sure the jet took quite a knocking in the early-mid 2000s when one could not initiate a discussion about it without incurring a diss. but then things improved. was it the blow-back from confirmation bias? so not all bad, right?

belated blessed dhanvantari trayodashi. stay healthy. weren't we talking about angioplasty just yesterday?

shiv
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 31 Oct 2016 10:49

malushahi wrote:now if the grouse is that a darra (or shitistan) comparison was used then i pray that ofb feel a millionth of the rush of blood that you do. to that i would reiterate the darra comparison a million times more.


A pathetic excuse for speaking like an outside third party gora sahib comparing Pakistan and India. I wanted to point out how self proclaimed patriots have so much contempt that they are not satisfied with criticism but need to rub it in with a comparison with Pakistan which I think is shameful. Topping that by the pompous claim that contemptuous patriotism saved MiG 21s is delusional.

No need for gratuitous references to my coronaries - there is every chance that I have kept them clear for decades longer than you have.
Last edited by shiv on 31 Oct 2016 11:05, edited 2 times in total.

ks_sachin
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 31 Oct 2016 11:02

Karan M wrote:exactly like i had predicted post uri revenge, special forces requirements will be fast tracked and specific ops readiness requirements will be made.


I think we should convert all our Infantry to special ops no. That way they will get some TLC.

Dad was at a SF Bn the other day and that was he was saying wistfully.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby malushahi » 31 Oct 2016 16:58

shiv wrote:A pathetic excuse for speaking like an outside third party gora sahib comparing Pakistan and India. I wanted to point out how self proclaimed patriots have so much contempt that they are not satisfied with criticism but need to rub it in with a comparison with Pakistan which I think is shameful. Topping that by the pompous claim that contemptuous patriotism saved MiG 21s is delusional.

No need for gratuitous references to my coronaries - there is every chance that I have kept them clear for decades longer than you have.


nice try hakim, trying to press all the red buttons.

Gyan
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 31 Oct 2016 21:30

vaibhav.n wrote:MoD's shopping spree break-up table


Image


While other purchases seem minor, the ATGM Purchase seems to be an attempt to push in a major purchase of around Rs. 2000 crores, which will take many years to integrate and realise/ receive as emergency procurement.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 01 Nov 2016 01:37

doc, trust me i would not make a gratuitous ref yo any indian agency, but OFB is a disaster. they dont do a good job of quality and constantly cut corners. inside an arjun, the quality of even basic painting is pathetic, and ofb made insas are often remachined by unit armorers to work. thousands of crores of ammo lies un serviceable because ofb didnt care. that lack of pride in the work tars and feathers the designers whose prototypes clear trials. the receiver cover on the insas is a shame. poorly machined ill fitting covers on a frontline battle rifle. the IA will look at a tavor and compare it to the insas and ask for a tavor. our efforts go wasted becayse ofb doesnt care.

nachiket
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 01 Nov 2016 02:38

Karan M wrote:the IA will look at a tavor and compare it to the insas and ask for a tavor. our efforts go wasted becayse ofb doesnt care.

The problem is, even if the GoI agrees to buy Tavors for the entire army, it will not allow direct import of hundreds of thousands of rifles. It will require most of them to be manufactured in India. And since every govt. has acquiesced to the almighty OFB unions in not letting anyone else manufacture guns in India, OFB will manufacture the Tavors. And those nincompoops will probably mess up so spectacularly, that the IA will go back to using their tried and trusted AKs.

shiv
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 01 Nov 2016 06:37

Karan M wrote:doc, trust me i would not make a gratuitous ref yo any indian agency, but OFB is a disaster. .

Karan you are preaching to the converted but you have missed the point. Everyone on BRF understands that OFB has serious issues of quality, inefficiency and sloth

But it is a very Indian need to press the point home by comparing our own people and saying that murderous enemies of ours are better than our own people. This is simply a rhetorical emphasis to make the point to show how contemptuous one feels about one's own people. That is completely unnecessary. We (Indians) do this a lot and do not seem to have the required sense self dignity to draw a line at criticism of our people and not act like we would rather admire and praise our enemies to express how infernally low we feel our own entities are. I have never objected to criticism of OFB, but I do object to vilifying our people to that extent using analogies. We really cannot keep on shaming our own people expecting that they will then want to change simply to get praise from us who sit pompously in judgement over them.


But we are all so clever we think that enough vicious shaming will make the mangy OFB and other PSU dogs work better and at least lift themselves up to the superior level of our enemies, while we judge and pass comments about them. That tells me something about our attitudes
Last edited by shiv on 01 Nov 2016 06:45, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 01 Nov 2016 06:42

malushahi wrote:
shiv wrote:A pathetic excuse for speaking like an outside third party gora sahib comparing Pakistan and India. I wanted to point out how self proclaimed patriots have so much contempt that they are not satisfied with criticism but need to rub it in with a comparison with Pakistan which I think is shameful. Topping that by the pompous claim that contemptuous patriotism saved MiG 21s is delusional.

No need for gratuitous references to my coronaries - there is every chance that I have kept them clear for decades longer than you have.


nice try hakim, trying to press all the red buttons.

Good for you if your buttons are not pressed. But the real point is not pressing your buttons, but getting others, of whom there are hundreds, to read what I feel which is more important than any attempt to provoke you or get you to change , or allowing your attempts to wriggle away by diversions from the original subject to stop me. Will not let your contempt pass without pointing out that there are alternate ways of being critical without derision.


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