Small Arms Thread

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 20 May 2018 12:32

As a result of cross training with NSG, lots of state police SWAT units have started to adopt Sig-550 series weapons.

Madhya Pradesh Police HAWK unit with full sized SiG 556

Arunachal Pradesh STF with SiG 553

Maharashtra Police C-60 unit with SiG 553

Gujarat Police Chetak with SiG 556

Haryana Police with SiG 551

Punjab Police SWAT with SiG 553

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 20 May 2018 12:35

These state police forces have good tactical gear. But what about their level of training?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 20 May 2018 13:06

darshhan wrote:These state police forces have good tactical gear. But what about their level of training?

NSG has taken the mentor role for all the police SWAT units in india. The annual police commando competition is now serious business where they go head to head against NSG and each other in various drills.
http://forceindia.net/feature-report/bl ... s-triumph/

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 20 May 2018 13:14

NSG Ghost unit with Scar-H. So the rumour is confirmed.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 21 May 2018 12:38

Thakur_B wrote:
darshhan wrote:These state police forces have good tactical gear. But what about their level of training?
NSG has taken the mentor role for all the police SWAT units in india. The annual police commando competition is now serious business where they go head to head against NSG and each other in various drills.
http://forceindia.net/feature-report/bl ... s-triumph/

IMO - what somebody inside Mumbai Police once told me. WIth Indian Police Tactical Units the problem will be less about money, and kit and training but more about Quality of Individuals who volunteer for duty here. Promotion Chances fewer, Money making chances zilch, Networking with Brass even less.

The more ambitious and smarter more educated cops will generally stay away and you may well get the runt of the litter.

BUT IMO deficiencies such as that can be made up with training. NSG Mentorship today is still far from ideal and a work in progress. In America Tier I and specific Tier II City SWAT teams are mandated to training alongside the FBI HRT and ESU and maintain a "HRT Standard". They requal every 2-3 years and get audited by FBI Tactical Teams. A more structured approach like that may pay huge dividends in the future.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 22 May 2018 09:56

Russian OTs-128 machine gun prototype in 7.62 NATO.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018 ... chine-gun/
The Russian small arms industry is on a rampage. The folding stock doubling up as a carrying handle is a very novel design idea.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 22 May 2018 16:15

Some of the Sigs are a very good bit of kit, comparable or even better to H&K at times

Pity they never got the Sig 556R/Xi right or free of it's niggles.

It had potential to be a very good modular rifle featuring on-the-field conversion in calibre (Nato 5.56/Russian 7.62), mutiple barrel lengths, ambidexterous handling. And with a real handy quality of being able to accept most russian/chinese/east european AK style mags.

Just goes to show that even the big shots with a long history of successful products can and do screw up at times or simply realise belatedly that making a jack of all trades is just not worth it..

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 22 May 2018 17:59

^^ SiG USA products are known to have quality issues (SiG R/xi, SiG MCX). San Swiss arms, the orignal swiss manufacturer (the real SiG) extracts premium pricing due to its quality.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 22 May 2018 18:52

Does Karnataka State Police has a SWAT unit? Doesn't seem like it based on a cursory Google search.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 22 May 2018 20:47

Zynda wrote:Does Karnataka State Police has a SWAT unit? Doesn't seem like it based on a cursory Google search.

Garuda force.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 23 May 2018 16:47

old news .......posting for records..

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=169881

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
11-August-2017 14:47 IST
Assault Rifles

Rifle Factory Ishapore (RFI) successfully developed Rifle 5.56 x 45mm Excalibur in association with Army. The Gun has been tried by the Indian Army and Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA).

RFI has already supplied around 20000 Nos. Excalibur Rifles to various Police Forces.

The design of 5.56 x 45mm Assault Rifle Excalibur is established and proven.

Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has indigenously developed 7.62 x 39mm Assault Rifle (Ghaatak) for MHA Units and Police Forces. After elaborate evaluation, State and Central Police Forces have placed order of around 5000 Nos. out of which OFB has already supplied 1230 Nos. The Indian Army and Indian Navy will be evaluating the weapon.

RFI had developed 5.56 x 45mm INSAS 1C Assault Rifle in the year 2015-16. The Rifle was extensively evaluated by Army and was able to achieve reliability of international standards.

However, in August, 2016, Army changed the calibre of the Assault Rifle from 5.56 x 45mm to 7.62 x 51mm. As a result of this change of calibre, the indigenous Assault Rifle of 5.56 x 45mm Calibre could not be inducted in Army.

Case for declaring an equipment ‘Obsolete’ is taken up by Line Directorate, Army Headquarters (Infantry Directorate, Army Headquarters for Small Arms). No further provisioning for said equipment and spares is done thereafter. Line Directorate caters for introduction of new equipment as replacement for equipment which it plans to phase out.

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Dr. Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to Shri M Chandrakasi in Lok Sabha today.

Nampi/Rajib

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 May 2018 18:02

Zynda wrote:Does Karnataka State Police has a SWAT unit? Doesn't seem like it based on a cursory Google search.

I hope they have helicopters and slithering equipment.

Saaar terror attack likely at xyz .
Sorry saar, still at Silk Board.

On a serious note, in a city where ambulances are stuck in traffic, where IT firms force their employees onto the road, off their premises if they fear anything untoward (to avoid liability), how exactly is a rapid response unit expected to operate.

Also, NSG fires a huge number of rounds every year per soldier, higher than even IA per older reports, are these state units funded likewise do they at least use sims..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 May 2018 21:54

American arms expert Larry Vickers test Ak-12

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 28 May 2018 18:01

Barrett in .338 Lapua in service with NSG.

Galil SAR in service with Para Sf.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 29 May 2018 21:43

I am a great fan of the Galil SAT. Its such a convenient gun to use.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 31 May 2018 11:26

Fn-minimi in 7.62 in service with NSG

Fn-minimi in 7.62 in servie with CRPF

Jharkand ATS also adopts SiG 553 SB

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 31 May 2018 20:24

Dileep wrote:Tonbo will help, but DRDO will have to stand in queue for that, and be a decent customer. Those guys are doing good business, and are not really interested to go through the hassle of selling to govt.

Tonbo is doing decent business with Indian armed forces.

Tonbo Arjun uncooled TI sight for INSAS

Tonbo Ek uncooled TI sight for SVD. The above are supposed to be deliveries against Indian orders.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 01 Jun 2018 02:15

Search for Rifles.

India has expanded its search for hightech assault rifles, carbines and small arms for its frontline soldiers, but has excluded its traditional ally, Russia, from the list of five countries that the Army-led procurement team plans to visit mid-June.

The team is set to visit gun manufacturers in the US, Israel and South Korea, and even countries from where India has never bought military equipment, a defence ministry official said.

The shortlisted manufacturers include Colt and and Sig Sauer of the US and Israel Weapon Industries.

The manufacturers had expressed their willingness to tie up with India in their responses to the Request for Proposals (RFPs) for procuring 72,400 assault rifles, 93,895 carbines and other small arms for frontline troops based under the Fast Track Procedure (FTP). The RFP was given to 12 vendors.

“Russia had also responded positively to the assault rifle RFP, but it didn’t have the calibre we are looking for, so there’s no point going there,” explained the official.

The team will be led by a major-general rank officer and will have representatives from the Directorate General of Quality Assurance, defence ministry, Army’s EME (Electronics and Mechanical Engineers) and infantry corps.

These manufacturers will come to India between July and August for further tests, and the trial team will try to ensure that demonstrations are done on a fast-track basis.

An advantage of the FTP is that there are no lengthy user trials. The FTP also allows procuring equipment which are in service. After the demonstrations, the lowest bidder (L1) will be selected for supplying the weapons to the army.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 01 Jun 2018 06:52

^^ What a joke this process has become.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 01 Jun 2018 11:07

Vips wrote:Search for Rifles.

India has expanded its search for hightech assault rifles, carbines and small arms for its frontline soldiers, but has excluded its traditional ally, Russia, from the list of five countries that the Army-led procurement team plans to visit mid-June.

So the one thing that is safe to buy from Russia that they are good value for money at, and very functional, and can't blackmail us over, we ignore them, and buy expensive complex crap like aircraft carriers, helicopters and naval carrier-borne aircraft that no one else buys, and air defense systems instead?

And what kind of rubbish plan is this to buy off the shelf products without at least licensing the design (preferably a deep license that lets us build variants)? And they want to go to SIG USA instead of the original SIG?

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 04 Jun 2018 18:50

India Army to cut down order for assault rifles to 250,000 due to budget constraints: Report

The Indian Army will place an order for only 250,000 modern assault rifles -- just a third of its total requirement -- driven by budgetary constraints and the need to speed up deliveries, a person with knowledge of the matter said.
:
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abhik · Post by **abhik** » 04 Jun 2018 23:39

Vips wrote:Search for Rifles.
The shortlisted manufacturers include Colt and and Sig Sauer of the US and Israel Weapon Industries.
...
An advantage of the FTP is that there are no lengthy user trials. The FTP also allows procuring equipment which are in service. After the demonstrations, the lowest bidder (L1) will be selected for supplying the weapons to the army.

Which 7.62x51 rifles are actually in service (I mean general issue in militaries that see action, not some Sherrif's department/South American policia departamento)? Apart from FN SCAR-H which is in very limited service and a few other DMR/Sniper rifles (which wouldn't count) - None as far as I know.
I wish instead of Fast Track Importgiri we try out Fast Track Development for once.

Zack · Post by **Zack** » 05 Jun 2018 05:21

SS LMT offering in the Make In India
program.
I do have images to post.

Zack · Post by **Zack** » 05 Jun 2018 05:24

I need help in posting images

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 05 Jun 2018 05:41

abhik wrote:
Vips wrote:Search for Rifles.
The shortlisted manufacturers include Colt and and Sig Sauer of the US and Israel Weapon Industries.
...
An advantage of the FTP is that there are no lengthy user trials. The FTP also allows procuring equipment which are in service. After the demonstrations, the lowest bidder (L1) will be selected for supplying the weapons to the army.
Which 7.62x51 rifles are actually in service (I mean general issue in militaries that see action, not some Sherrif's department/South American policia departamento)? Apart from FN SCAR-H which is in very limited service and a few other DMR/Sniper rifles (which wouldn't count) - None as far as I know.
I wish instead of Fast Track Importgiri we try out Fast Track Development for once.

Turkish MpT-76 (unlicensed HK417).

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 05 Jun 2018 08:33

lol, somebody book tickets to Turkey!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Jun 2018 08:40

Enough of this circus. Why can't the force's explicitly state requirements to the OFB and each ofb plant designs own designs for the requirement. Let them be tested against each other the best design wins.

Or is it too logical.

Zack · Post by **Zack** » 05 Jun 2018 09:14

Both the 7.62 / 51
And 7.62/ 39 are being made in India at LMT
India facilities:

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 05 Jun 2018 12:43

Pratyush wrote:Enough of this circus. Why can't the force's explicitly state requirements to the OFB and each ofb plant designs own designs for the requirement. Let them be tested against each other the best design wins.

Or is it too logical.

The problem IS the OFB. If the govt and ARDE was working with private players like Bharat Forge or Punj Lloyd even smaller companies in the automotive space like Stumpp, Schuele & Somappa (with whom LMT has partnered) we could at least be churning out precision engineered versions of AK derivatives and/or clones of expensive FN/HK systems like the Czechs and the Turks.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 05 Jun 2018 12:45

Zack wrote:Both the 7.62 / 51
And 7.62/ 39 are being made in India at LMT
India facilities:

LMT systems are very good, but Indian forces are not known to use AR platforms in any significant quantities and it is unclear whether they would meet reliability and tolerance for minimal maintenance under Indian conditions. They are also eye wateringly expensive.

If the reliability is suitable, AR based platforms might be a way to go for India, since the platform is essentially open source and there are a lot of components and parts available for it, and the platform has great accuracy and weight parameters.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 05 Jun 2018 12:51

Thakur_b

Do you remember the ParaFl.

Alao how does the SCaR H have less recoil than the fn when both fire the same reound?

Both arenshort stroke pistons no?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 05 Jun 2018 12:54

Guys ahould we start a design your own assault rifle thread?
Every one wants fighter planes and ships!!! Assault rifle design is much more fascinating!!!

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Jun 2018 08:17

ks_sachin wrote:Thakur_b

Do you remember the ParaFl.

Alao how does the SCaR H have less recoil than the fn when both fire the same reound?

Both arenshort stroke pistons no?

We could have modernised the parafal, afterall the tooling for FAL seems to be there considering that they were attempting to rechamber FAL for 7.62x39 a while back.

The muzzle brake on SCAR-H is brutal for anyone standing within a near the shooter, probably that's why there is so low recoil. I remember watching a video long time back (hickok45 channel, i think) where the camera guy standing few meters away from the shooter was getting basted with muzzle blast.

Also IA going for 7.62 is going to fail hard in terms of procurement. I can only think of handful of guns from major manufacturers that have been made / adopted in half decent numbers:

IWI Tavor-7
IWI Galil ACE 52
San Swiss Arms SiG 751 SAPR
SiG Saur 716
HK417
Fn SCAR
Imbel IA2 7.62 (brazil seems to have abandoned the tilting lock mechanism of FAL)
MPT-76
All the AR-10 Derivatives (LMT and other american manufacturers)

Everyone of the above, other than Israeli and Turkish rifles, was designed partly for the DMR role, and hence are not cheap in any way. SiG 751 SAPR sells $4000 and above in US civvy market. IA won't pay this much, hell even Chacha Khan di fauj isn't going for new rifles precisely because they Contract M4 from Fn, Colt and Remington for some $820 only. That's first world TFTA manufacturing at third world prices, and even though there are literally thousands of variants and mods in the market, they are only buying good enough stuff.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 06 Jun 2018 09:25

Thakur_b thanks.

My views exactly.

The brazilian parafl and south african para fn got rid of the tilting apring and rod . The receiver was modified. It was atill as reliable.

We should have explored that and new material and muzzle thingy could have worked.

The more I read about the FNFAL the more I like it.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Jun 2018 10:36

Zack wrote:I need help in posting images

1. Upload on imgur.
2. Copy bb code for forums.
3. Paste here and post.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jun 2018 16:47

There is no guarantee that this 2.5 lakh procurement would see the light of the day they might cancel it at the last moment due to lack of funds

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 06 Jun 2018 17:38

I dont think there is any change in the 7.62x51 rifles procurement plan. When Manohar Parrikar was DM he wanted OFB to develop the 7.62x51 rifles in 6 months, once when it was ready the army was not 100% happy and wanted import and were not ready to wait. After some discussions they came to a middle ground that a part of the requirement meant for frontline infantry would be imported and the rest would be OFB designed provided it meets the requirement. I think these new articles are twisting the facts to show the present government in bad light especially the fact that they are only quoting unnamed source and describing home made guns as if they are crap.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 368819.cms

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 07 Jun 2018 06:09

Kakarat the InSAS is not great. Now I am not talking the caliber but design and build. Anything else based on that even if they use machined receivers is not going to be that great.
Pl read the links Thakur ji posted.
I think the MCIWS design should be progressed or we should do a parafl.
Just visit DSA small arms to see what they have done with the original fn.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 07 Jun 2018 06:12

And why should OFB design a rifle. Let them get their prod right first. The ARDE has through Insas and MCIWS built up a body of knowledge.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 07 Jun 2018 08:05

This is going to be a long rant.

The AR-2 attempt by OFB isn't half shabby. Shifting from a stamped receiver to milled one probably helped a lot with the finish. Since FALs were milled and INSAS was the first mass produced stamped receiver gun, it probably had its fair share of QC issues. To say AKM took 12 years and 3 design iterations to be perfected or M-16 took 25 years and 4 variants to become reliable is a lousy excuse. The sad part is, it required only a handful of minor fixes.

The handguard design on INSAS family was bad with the top part falling off as it doesn't have much surface to hold on to on the gun. They fixed it on the Amogh by shifting the charging handle back, but then forgot all about it with INSAS 1C and AR 2. In my opinion, Amogh is the best designed firearm in Insas family. The handguard sits more rigidly as a slit is not required for charging handle.

The trigger and safety group on the insas becane unreliable with wear and tear, resulting in gun going full auto in three burst mode. Those parts could have been made beefier or with higher strength materials, but everybody was in denial mode for a decade.

Since INSAS doesn't have a reciprocating handle, in case of failure to go into battery, the charging handle needs to be pulled back and the round expelled. Infact I don't see any major advantages of non reciprocating charging handle and eliminating it would lessen one spring and a moving part. FN, SiG, IWI guns seem to do OK without them. A reciprocating handle can be used to nudge the bolt into battery. The AR family of guns have forward assist to help rounds get into battery in event of improper cycling.

They seem to have fixed the duct cover rigidity thing in AR-2 with the dust cover locking being on sides, instead of rear. In my opinion it will reduce the flex on the cover while firing and reduce the sideways wobble with wear and tear when the gun gets older, ensuring accuracy with optics even if the cover is opened to reduce malfunction.

On the Mk1c, they just welded on a picatinny rail where the dovetail rail used to be. One drop and the rail will be bent. They changed the lower receiver but forgot to change the upper receiver. I mean that's just lousy. They could have made amogh or AR2 style upper receiver, but no, let's just reuse the same jigs again.

Also ARDE hasn't really set it's mind on small arms design yet. There was plenty wrong with MCIWS design too and it was never brought to fruition. They made some 250 plus prototypes for testing and now they don't even showcase it at industry events anymore.

TL;DR: OFB sucks. ARDE small arms bureau sucks. Buy license to manufacture a successful gun and let production commence or ask HK/FN/SiG/Kalashnikov to design a firearm for you or design something like HK433 if you have the capability.