Small Arms Thread

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ArmenT
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 04 Dec 2008 12:07

Ramana, the Czech made Skorpion vz61 is already a submachine gun using a .32 ACP round. The thing with .32 cal is that it is more suited for weapons that are concealable (such as the Bond favourite Walter PPK) and many Americans consider it as relatively low powered round and not a man-stopper.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya G » 04 Dec 2008 12:58

Recall Shipon rockets were inducted into IA quite a while back. We first saw them in Jammu railway station attack and then later in other missions as well.

Cannot comment whether Shipon has a lesser damage but is definitely lighter since the launcher is disposed after firing.

ramana wrote:I think a reduced charge warhead is need for CQB in urban areas to reduce the excess balst in confined areas for the Carl Gustaf RCl with Indian Army. The excess blast knocked down Maj Unnikrishnan.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 04 Dec 2008 12:59

exactly what was used to blow the hole in nariman house ?
any ideas ? could it have been a shipon ?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Igorr » 04 Dec 2008 13:30

ramana wrote:I like the idea of the 0.32 pistol carbine for the ind police as that provides a steady supply of cartridges. Can an existing design be rechambered?

One can always get exotic artridges but become hostages to supply chain

12 gauge: effective, common and doesnt need very practice

Image Image Image Image Image Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kartman » 05 Dec 2008 15:47

Jagan wrote:
rohitvats wrote:I've seen men from the Mechanized Regiments use a shorter and automatic version of the SLR. This was arounf 93-94.


Rohit,

Not a shorter version - it was the same length but with forestock shortened. This was to enable the SLR barrel to fit in and to be fired through the gunports in the BMPs of the Mech Inf Regts. (The gun ports were designed keeping the AK in mind)

Took some time for me to find that bit out!

-Jagan

Jagan-garu: was this the same as the 1C (?) rifle, the full-auto version ? Or was this also semi-auto like the standard SLRs...

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby andy B » 08 Dec 2008 10:49

what would be the advantages if any of moving from the mp3/mp5 family (9mm) to the 5.56mm HK416 that delta force and few others have selected?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_HK416

is this a suitable weapon for HRT/urban CQB ?

and how about a squad automatic weapon with a high rate of suppressing fire. can the INSAS be modified to use a 200rd box mag
and bipods with some form of magnifying/night scope?


Singha saar,

For the HK416 we would need to consider the short barrel D10RS version would need to be looked at. AFAIK CQB always use short barrel weapons.

The MP7 looks more like a slightly bigger UZI than a full up primary weapon like the MP5.

Also I think we should also consider the FN P90, Tavor and the indigenous Zitara (Not fully sure of the last one). As these weapons are already in use by the Indian armed forces and SPG it would make interoperability, maintenance, etc. Another obvious choice IMHO would also be the INSAS carbine. Either way no matter what weapon is considered it would be imperative to choose one that is short enough to operate in CQB.

The INSAS LMG makes sense and fitting a box magazine should not be overtly difficult. Although I wonder if the NSG would use an LMG for CQB the support that a LMG can provide would have to be from a standoff range in this case as it would be cumbersome to run around in building with such a weapon.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=101&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 08 Dec 2008 11:53

Anand Barve wrote:
Also I think we should also consider the FN P90, Tavor and the indigenous Zitara (Not fully sure of the last one). As these weapons are already in use by the Indian armed forces and SPG it would make interoperability, maintenance, etc. Another obvious choice IMHO would also be the INSAS carbine. Either way no matter what weapon is considered it would be imperative to choose one that is short enough to operate in CQB.

.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=101&st=0&sk=t&sd=a


FNP90 has a limited range. With the FN2000(spg has this too)you get a compact(ish) weapon that can also be used in stand-off scenarios.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby andy B » 08 Dec 2008 14:06

Bharadwaj wrote:
Anand Barve wrote:
Also I think we should also consider the FN P90, Tavor and the indigenous Zitara (Not fully sure of the last one). As these weapons are already in use by the Indian armed forces and SPG it would make interoperability, maintenance, etc. Another obvious choice IMHO would also be the INSAS carbine. Either way no matter what weapon is considered it would be imperative to choose one that is short enough to operate in CQB.

.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=101&st=0&sk=t&sd=a


FNP90 has a limited range. With the FN2000(spg has this too)you get a compact(ish) weapon that can also be used in stand-off scenarios.


My bad mate, I intended to refer to the FN 2000 and not the P90.

Cheers.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Singha » 08 Dec 2008 19:55

I have a real fetish fine hunting type rifles like this mauser
http://www.mauserwaffen.de/M-03-Arabesq ... .html?&L=1
http://www.sako.fi/sakoquadmodels.php?hunterpro

usually 5 rd and 10 rd mags are available. these are much cheaper than
PSG1/MSG90 types surely.

imo if the urban metro police need to have sniper rifles to dominate large
swathes of territory like railway stations, airports, town squares a well
trained marksman with a bolt action rifle would be far more discerning and effective than a dozen guys blazing away with low power CQB type carbines.

maybe most of the 0.303 replacements can be INSAS std rifle but some
can get nsg/army training in the sniper role with such hunting rifles.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby neerajb » 08 Dec 2008 20:59

Singhaji, fantasies apart, we need to look at the operational requirement of a police weapon. In this context, the weapon should not be too powerful to over penetrate and cause civilian damage (pistol rounds or shorter rifle rounds (P90) will do just fine), full auto is highly desirable to outgun the pistol armed bag guys (in emergencies terrorists too), should be a compact/light weapon with a large ammunition capacity. Just the thought of a sniper armed with a super powerful bolt action rifile in a crowded place like a train station is scary. Expecting markmanship from a policeman who gets 50 rounds a year training is too much to ask for. Such weapons will yield better results even with current style of training. Any such weapon will do including MP5. I have seen security people in KLIA carry MP5 with one mag loaded and four in reserve, 150 rounds in total and it is very light judging by the mobility of those people.

Cheers....

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby kaangeya » 09 Dec 2008 07:23

It is about time the entire police were armed with a modern handgun at a minimum. remember the days when Calcutta Police carried a revolver at all times? Beyond that at least the four man team should be armed to the teeth, 1 handgun each+2 shotguns+2 assault rifles

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2008 10:52

ArmenT, So the Indian police is woefully ill-euipped against armed terrorists who have a modern arsenal. Now that I think about it the .32 revolver is quite pathetic. What happened to those Czech pistols that Rajiv Gandhi imported for the Indian Police? were there no plans to make them in the OFB?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Singha » 09 Dec 2008 11:07

but doesnt the close protection detail types prefer revolvers to automatic pistols? read this in a book. felt to be ultra reliable and these guys need those 1-2 shots to _always work_....key to saving the 'leaders' life.

methinks while the patrol type police can do fine with INSAS and a modern automatic pistol, a heavily equipped QRT of 4-6 people can be kept centrally in busy places like railway stations, armed with MP3, hunting rifles, and trained to a level for fighting mobile battles and follow the adversary through the streets should they decamp.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby somak » 09 Dec 2008 11:20

I believe Calcutta police acquired some Czech scorpion SMGs for VIP protection in late 80s/early 90s. A sample is still kept at Kolkata police museum.

I also remember an arms scandal in late 80s,involving some Czech pistol purchase for indian paramilitary forces. Can anybody provide the details?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 09 Dec 2008 11:24

In the Indian context, revolvers seemed more appropriate than handguns.

<Disclaimer>This was many years ago and I was at quite an impressionable age. Things may have changed since then.</Disclaimer>
I once asked a desi law enforcement officer relative why Indian cops carried a revolver rather than a pistol (I saw them in Bond movies and thought they look cooler...remember I was very impressionable at that time). He gave me a very good reason and it has nothing to do with the gun, but everything to do with ammo. Apparently the cops don't get to fire their weapons very often and the cartridges are very old (he said his ammo was probably older than me at that time). With such old ammo, you often get a misfire and nothing happens. With a double-action revolver, bad ammo is not a problem -- you simply pull the trigger again, the cylinder rotates and the next round fires. With a pistol, if a misfire happens, you have to pull the slide back manually to eject the bad cartridge, aim again and hope the next one doesn't misfire.

Of course things may have changed somewhat since then. If the cops go for handguns rather than revolvers, they should probably have a firing course every six months or so, where they get rid of old ammo.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 09 Dec 2008 11:26

Singha wrote:but doesnt the close protection detail types prefer revolvers to automatic pistols? read this in a book. felt to be ultra reliable and these guys need those 1-2 shots to _always work_....key to saving the 'leaders' life.

methinks while the patrol type police can do fine with INSAS and a modern automatic pistol, a heavily equipped QRT of 4-6 people can be kept centrally in busy places like railway stations, armed with MP3, hunting rifles, and trained to a level for fighting mobile battles and follow the adversary through the streets should they decamp.


Close protection would require concealed weapons and so weapons that can be carried within the clothes is advisable.

Then the next ring requires weapons that can take on a greater distance than the killing range of pistols (Revolvers have less ammunition).

In busy areas as airports, railway stations, malls etc, there has to be all types of security apparatus that can take on close quarters as also middle distance, but these people must be sharpshooters so that innocents are not killed.

Very complex.

Each area requires customised protection.

Armen,

An interesting point on a revolver and pistol!

I believe that the Mumbai police or for that matter Indian police have not fired a weapon on the range for 10 years or more!

It is high time the VIPs are not protected so that they realise the situation that the common man faces. The Black Cats around the VIP is more of a status symbol. There sure is a requirement to analyse which of these 'quivering fear crazed' politicians require their bodies protected. I believe crores are spent to keep them embalmed in good health!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 10 Dec 2008 21:53

SaiK wrote:.............insas!
Image

guys can you ID the gun ?

is it the galatz sniper ?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sanjay » 10 Dec 2008 22:45

May I suggest reading:

http://specials.rediff.com/news/2008/de ... rorist.htm

There are some very useful comments on the armament levels and training of the police.

RayC, just to quibble a bit, the UP PAC and elements of some of the armed police battalions in Naxal states are receiving enhanced training - including marksmanship from the army.

That rifle may well be the MSG-90.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 10 Dec 2008 22:54

sanjay, thanks. It does look like the msg-90.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sanjay » 11 Dec 2008 02:41

Ramana, the import was for 55,000 Cz75 I believe.
The deal was cancelled after allegations of corruption and the armament standardized in theory around the Browning FN-35 made by the OFB.

Substantial quantities of Webley revolvers are left and if serviced properly and the ammunition stored appropriately, then things should be OK.

Even now, I see no need for the civil police to carry assault rifles on the beat - high risk of weapons being lost (witness what happened to 5 Jharkand STF personnel who were jumped by 25+Maoists with knives in a very confined space, killed and 5 INSAS rifles lost). I do agree they need to be armed. Phase out the 9mm carbines, submachine guns and pistols from military and CPMF use and after servicing pass all of those weapons over to the police. Support these with shotguns. Retain the 0.303 for riot duty. Allocate an INSAS rifle or MINSAS against each police post and store those in armouries while reequipping all armed police battalions and district armed reserves.

That being said, please consider the issues raised in this article:

http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/11/stories ... 741000.htm

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby SaiK » 11 Dec 2008 03:36


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rishirishi » 11 Dec 2008 03:43

I have fired HK rifles and found them to be very robust and reliable.

A comando needs to have a choice of 4 guns of his choice. there is no gun that will suit all. The choice depends on the comandos height, strength and weight and role. In any case each comando needs to be equipped by:

1 Hand gun, light weight as a secondry weapon. (small and handy)
2 An assalult rifle for general purpose. Typically a HK G3 or Insas. (Accurate up to 200 meters, heavy and bulky)
3 A close combat rifle, with short barrel. (accurate up to 50 meter, light and egile)
4 A sniper rifle. (bulky, fragile and cumbersome. Accurate up to 500 meters)

In a opperation like TAJ, they would require a close combat rifle and a pistal. Snipers are placed at a safe distance.

As for the anti terror police, they require standard close combat rifle with 30 rounds in the magazine. The rate of fire does not really matter. What is important is that they are reliable and easy to handle. My choice would be a HK G36C.

The enfield .303 must be replaced imideately. They are useless for other that static display.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rishirishi » 11 Dec 2008 03:45



The rifle of the ........ :lol:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby krishnan » 11 Dec 2008 06:27



Which one? The black one or the one who is wearing something black :P

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby kaangeya » 11 Dec 2008 07:38

Praveen Swami touches upon the topic a little but not exactly right with his facts. The classic 9 x 19 mm Parabellum round does have this problem of high penetration power. But a hollow point bullet takes care of that problem to quite an extent. A few armies are switching over to the 4.47 mm MP7. But US PDs especially the SWAT teams continue to use the 9/10 mm/0.40 S&W MP5. The piglets from TSP were using the good old AK47 7.62 rounds. All uniformed scurity personnel are responsible for their weapons. There is always a risk of losing it in a firefight. But that is no reason not to arm them.

Praveen Swami seems to be making a case for better weapons training for the non-special forces cops. Good point. Militaries may study these behaviours but generally don't belabour the point. Your normal day-to-day cop could do with such training. But there are quite a few who are capable, and could srprise us.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya G » 11 Dec 2008 08:58

BRF must have missed this item:

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1210367

Commandos of the National Security Guard (NSG) were caught by surprise on Friday afternoon when they were fired at by an MP5 submachine gun. Till then, they were being fired at only by AK47s.

The MP5 is far superior to the AK47 and is only used by the security forces of various countries. This led the NSG to believe that the terrorists were more heavily armed than they had thought. But the mystery was solved when they realised that the terrorists had seized Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan’s weapon after killing him. The NSG feel that the acquisition of this weapon had extended their resistance by a few hours. This is also an indication, said a senior officer, that the terrorists were trained in the use of this sophisticated weapon as well.

....


SSG at work? :roll: :evil:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 11 Dec 2008 12:55

You know what would be interesting would be some official confirmation about the exact weapons that the terrorists were using. AK-47 is often misused by DDM to indicate any rifle in the AK family tree. They could have been using AKM or AK-74 for all you know. Also is it confirmed that they were indeed using the 7.62 mm variant or 5.56 mm.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 11 Dec 2008 12:57

all the reliable reports said ak-56 AFAIR.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Surya » 11 Dec 2008 16:53

It was Unnis MP 5.

according to one report

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sanjay » 11 Dec 2008 16:58

I agree with 100% arming. I just do not think the civil police need to be issued assault rifles for most of their tasks. A combination of pistols/revolvers, 9mm carbines/smgs and shotguns will suffice for quite serious levels of threat. Rifles can be issued on a threat/ task basis. Shorter, handier weapons are needed for policemen in urban areas.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby kaangeya » 11 Dec 2008 20:18

In the sort of densely peopled spaces we have in India your typical Police Cruiser weapons load would be dangerous - 9mm handgun + M4 and 12 Ga. Shotgun in the car. Instead the cop on beat must have a your standard handgun and teams of four in the area with the full weapon load on standby for backup, with a small QRT at the thana would be the way to organise

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby SaiK » 11 Dec 2008 21:07

krishnan wrote:Which one? The black one or the one who is wearing something black :P

Both, but I will promise I will use the black ones only if its necessary.
======

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rishirishi » 11 Dec 2008 23:41

Sanjay wrote:I agree with 100% arming. I just do not think the civil police need to be issued assault rifles for most of their tasks. A combination of pistols/revolvers, 9mm carbines/smgs and shotguns will suffice for quite serious levels of threat. Rifles can be issued on a threat/ task basis. Shorter, handier weapons are needed for policemen in urban areas.


Totally agree. An assult rifle is meant for combat warfare and is outright cumbersome and hard to handle in very close combat (0-20 meters). The assault rifle is required for targets exeeding 150 meters.
In some cases long range snipers are required, but that role should not be filled by an assualt rifle, but a specialist sniper.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya G » 12 Dec 2008 19:07

Image

Is this the full-auto SLR?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Jagan » 13 Dec 2008 02:39

Aditya G wrote:[

Is this the full-auto SLR?


yes the one in the background.

another view cmparing with the regular SLR
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya G » 13 Dec 2008 08:06

Jagan wrote:yes the one in the background.

another view cmparing with the regular SLR


And this one?

Image
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rishi » 14 Dec 2008 10:52

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displ ... um=8922581

Image

http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews2006 ... /index.asp

India’s Enfields

Written by: Robert W. Edwards, Lieutenant Colonel United States Air Force (Retired)
Published by: The Consortium Press, box 190, Keedysville, MD 21756, U.S.A.
Available from: milcolco@intrepid.net (also available on both www.gunbroker.com and www.auctionarms.com
ISBN 0-9701237-0-1
Softcover, 8 ½ X 11, 132 pages, b&w, color photos, watercolors & paintings. $25.00 + shipping.

Col. Edwards has done an absolutely fantastic job in his work “India’s Enfields”! This book covers not only each of the Lee Enfield models produced at the Rifle Factory Ishapore in India, but also includes a complete military history of India and the political & sociological factors that shaped India.

The book is broken down into six chapters. The first five chapters cover particular time periods. The last chapter explores experimental & special purpose weapons. At the start of each chapter is the background and history that shaped events of that time. Then the rifles used or modified during that era are covered in great detail. Bayonets are also covered in each chapter. The markings and stampings found on Ishapore produced, or refurbished Lee Enfields are fully cataloged and explained.

Col. Edwards book is replete with photos, watercolors & paintings, not only of the guns and military accoutrements, but also of the Indian Army itself. This is a most exhaustive work, fully researched, and laid out in a most pleasing style. This book is the authority on arms produced, modified or refurbished at the Rifle Factory Ishapore in India.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 14 Dec 2008 10:57

Future weapons on discovery is running a show now on Israeli ops with a lot of detail on micro tavor-repeats at 11 pm tonight.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Raj Malhotra » 14 Dec 2008 12:05

The point is that .303 has to be replaced + we need immediate better training. OFB makes:-

A-7 (AK-47 variant)
INSAS
MINSAS (seems like a good weapon)


Sterlling gun (also called incorrectly sten gun) is junk while SLR is too powerful & TAVOR is too costly. SO we should go for something that is availble NOW

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nsa_tanay » 15 Dec 2008 10:49

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Kolkata_/Cops_wield_Indian_version_of_AK-47_rejected_by_army/articleshow/3833971.cms


Cops wield Indian version of AK-47 rejected by army
14 Dec 2008, 0339 hrs IST, Jayanta Gupta, TNN



KOLKATA: The next time you feel secure standing next to a policeman toting a so-called AK-47 assault rifle, look closer. The weapon he is wielding
may not be the time-tested sleek weapon originally designed by Mikhail Kalashnikov, but merely a poor imitation, manufactured in India and rejected outright by the army and paramilitary forces.

In 2003-'04, with the AK-47 turning out to be a favourite among terrorists, security forces began looking for a weapon that would be equally potent and easy to handle. While the home ministry placed orders for AK-47s from Bulgaria, the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) came up with its own design for a rifle called the A-7.

Some rifles were manufactured and sent to the army for user trials. They resembled AK-47s to a certain extent but were chunkier' and comparatively unwieldy. The army rejected the rifles outright.

"The OFB was saddled with a large number of rifles. These were of 7.62 mm calibre like the AK-47, but were nowhere as potent. As the home ministry started receiving requests from state governments for better weapons, the already manufactured A-7 rifles were issued to the state police," said a source.

Senior army officers have little faith in the weapon. They believe it is of little use, particularly when issued to personnel without proper training. The 5.56-mm Insas, manufactured at Rifle Factory, Ishapore, and tested during the Kargil War, is a far better option. "The AK-47 is not a very accurate weapon. Its advantage lies in the rate of fire and its convenient shape. The Indian version does not match the original. Those who do not have regular practise will find it much difficult to handle during an emergency," a senior officer said. A few original AK-47 rifles were issued only to the special units protecting VVIPs, such as chief ministers.


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