Small Arms Thread

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Jul 2018 09:29

They cannot forego a GSQR.
Any off the shelf purchase has to meet some criteria.
5.56 because NATO.
SLR was a pain in Lanka and CI ops in valley were on a distant horizon.
Looking back the GSQR was not so much a problem as the design which betrayed disconnect between users and designers but also end users and the powers that be in AHQ.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Jul 2018 12:11

Plus cost considerations meant flimsy parts.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1248
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 04 Jul 2018 16:24

If by indian standard ammunition they mean 5.56 INSAS round then any carbine that uses stanag nato standard magazine is out as 5.56 INSAS round being 2.5 mm longer will result in feed failure.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1248
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 04 Jul 2018 16:46

Also, this is just an excuse to buy Galils off the shelf.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50754
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 05 Jul 2018 03:15

ks_sachin wrote:They cannot forego a GSQR.
Any off the shelf purchase has to meet some criteria.
5.56 because NATO.
SLR was a pain in Lanka and CI ops in valley were on a distant horizon.
Looking back the GSQR was not so much a problem as the design which betrayed disconnect between users and designers but also end users and the powers that be in AHQ.



AR-15 or M-16 was also a big flop but US persisted to develop M-4. They didnt go around disparaging the rifle and shop around for German or Israeli rifles.

Current leadership hasn't fought a real war and forgot the sacrifices of 1962 onwards.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1590
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 05 Jul 2018 08:03

Ditto with the FAMAS, ditto with the L85.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Jul 2018 10:38

Thakur_B wrote:If by indian standard ammunition they mean 5.56 INSAS round then any carbine that uses stanag nato standard magazine is out as 5.56 INSAS round being 2.5 mm longer will result in feed failure.

Thakur_b was not that longer round because of effective range requirements???

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Jul 2018 10:42

ramana wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:They cannot forego a GSQR.
Any off the shelf purchase has to meet some criteria.
5.56 because NATO.
SLR was a pain in Lanka and CI ops in valley were on a distant horizon.
Looking back the GSQR was not so much a problem as the design which betrayed disconnect between users and designers but also end users and the powers that be in AHQ.



AR-15 or M-16 was also a big flop but US persisted to develop M-4. They didnt go around disparaging the rifle and shop around for German or Israeli rifles.

Current leadership hasn't fought a real war and forgot the sacrifices of 1962 onwards.

On the contrary sir if they remember 1962 onwards and the sacrifices of our jawans they will spend the money and get best piece of kit - untill and unless the OBF can demonstrate some thought leadership.
The current leadership has good knowledge of CI ops!!!

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7851
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 05 Jul 2018 12:21

I have not seen any GSQR for the insas replacement. Any one know if it was ever reveled July the Indian army.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Jul 2018 13:25

I have seen a GSQR for a GSQR!!!

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Jul 2018 13:32

Thakur_b I have fired the FNFAL so take your point on NE troops.
But they managed earrlier yes?
Also the ACE should not be a problem yes?
Also would you know what studies were or have been done WRT to
1 Ergonomis
2 Recoil mitigation through study of diff muzzle break designs

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Jul 2018 13:56

Manish_p have u noticed the picctinny rails on the OFB 7.62?

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1590
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 05 Jul 2018 15:52

^ Yes, I have. I am however not very clear to what you are alluding to..

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Jul 2018 05:10

The design presupposes that a soldier will only need to mount optics

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1590
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 06 Jul 2018 12:53

Doesn't it have under barrel rail ? I thought it saw that, though i could be mistaken..

tappo
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 2
Joined: 16 Aug 2018 14:45

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tappo » 16 Aug 2018 20:18

Rishi wrote:http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8922581

Image

http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews2006 ... /index.asp

India’s Enfields

Written by: Robert W. Edwards, Lieutenant Colonel United States Air Force (Retired)
Published by: The Consortium Press, box 190, Keedysville, MD 21756, U.S.A.
Available from: milcolco@intrepid.net (also available on both http://www.gunbroker.com and http://www.auctionarms.com
ISBN 0-9701237-0-1
Softcover, 8 ½ X 11, 132 pages, b&w, color photos, watercolors & paintings. $25.00 + shipping.

Col. Edwards has done an absolutely fantastic job in his work “India’s Enfields”! This book covers not only each of the Lee Enfield models produced at the Rifle Factory Ishapore in India, but also includes a complete military history of India and the political & sociological factors that shaped India.

The book is broken down into six chapters. The first five chapters cover particular time periods. The last chapter explores experimental & special purpose weapons. At the start of each chapter is the background and history that shaped events of that time. Then the rifles used or modified during that era are covered in great detail. Bayonets are also covered in each chapter. The markings and stampings found on Ishapore produced, or refurbished Lee Enfields are fully cataloged and explained.

Col. Edwards book is replete with photos, watercolors & paintings, not only of the guns and military accoutrements, but also of the Indian Army itself. This is a most exhaustive work, fully researched, and laid out in a most pleasing style. This book is the authority on arms produced, modified or refurbished at the Rifle Factory Ishapore in India.





I'm new to this forum, thank you for accepting me.
I would like to know if it is still possible to buy the book?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50754
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 17 Aug 2018 00:32

Welcome to the fourm

tappo
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 2
Joined: 16 Aug 2018 14:45

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tappo » 17 Aug 2018 00:49

ramana wrote:Welcome to the fourm


Thank you

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 245
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 17 Aug 2018 03:25

News on Fast Track rifle purchase
3 private firms shortlisted for made in India rifle
“The RFPs were given to 12 companies out of which after extensive trials, only three companies with the OEMs: Punj Lloyd working with IWI, Israel; Kanpur-based MKU with Thales, Australia, and Caracal of UAE; and Reliance Armaments with S&T Motiv of South Korea have been shortlisted,” one of the sources said

It's a good news but feeling a little bad for LMT not being shortlisting. The LMT rifle in my looking at the reviews came as the best of the bunch for precision shooting.

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 245
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 17 Aug 2018 03:54

Thales F90


Caracal 308


IWI Tavor 7


A glance on the candidates :D

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3162
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 17 Aug 2018 05:57

Looks like the Americans, Italians and belgians either opted out or did not make the shortlist.

I am rooting for the Tavor (was the Galil not offered?)

The Thales offering also looks good in the video. Not sure about the UAE and South Korean offerings.

Punj LLoyd has already set up a manufacturing facility in collaboration with IWI. I don't think MKU or Reliance have.

Sorry to hear that the LMG has become a single-vendor situation. That will delay it further. Wish the MoD would just buy the Negev in a G-to-G deal.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2252
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby abhik » 17 Aug 2018 08:56

Thales F90 is a 5.56mm not 7.62 right?

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 245
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 17 Aug 2018 13:43

abhik wrote:Thales F90 is a 5.56mm not 7.62 right?

yes. I looked for the 308 version but couldn't find it so assumed that they have a kit to convert it for the bigger calibre.

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 245
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 17 Aug 2018 13:57

Kakkaji wrote:I am rooting for the Tavor (was the Galil not offered?)

Not much open source info on which one was offered. Some of them said both.
I assumed it was Tavor due to usage of it by IA. but Tavor 7 is still untested in battle condition and as per a forum discussion(I need to find the source) the piston was changed to short stroke rather the conventional Tavor long stroke piston, that changes reliability aspect too.
so I'd say lets wait and watch.

edit: found the discussion
https://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=13240.0

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 17 Aug 2018 16:14

souravB wrote:News on Fast Track rifle purchase
3 private firms shortlisted for made in India rifle
“The RFPs were given to 12 companies out of which after extensive trials, only three companies with the OEMs: Punj Lloyd working with IWI, Israel; Kanpur-based MKU with Thales, Australia, and Caracal of UAE; and Reliance Armaments with S&T Motiv of South Korea have been shortlisted,” one of the sources said

It's a good news but feeling a little bad for LMT not being shortlisting. The LMT rifle in my looking at the reviews came as the best of the bunch for precision shooting.

This is not only about precision. Is the LMT gas or piston operated..

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 17 Aug 2018 16:30

souravB wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:I am rooting for the Tavor (was the Galil not offered?)

Not much open source info on which one was offered. Some of them said both.
I assumed it was Tavor due to usage of it by IA. but Tavor 7 is still untested in battle condition and as per a forum discussion(I need to find the source) the piston was changed to short stroke rather the conventional Tavor long stroke piston, that changes reliability aspect too.
so I'd say lets wait and watch.

edit: found the discussion
https://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=13240.0



Why do you say long stroke is more reliable than short stroke...
Have you seen how well designed the tavor 7 is. They need to update the 5.56.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 17 Aug 2018 16:32

souravB wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:I am rooting for the Tavor (was the Galil not offered?)

Not much open source info on which one was offered. Some of them said both.
I assumed it was Tavor due to usage of it by IA. but Tavor 7 is still untested in battle condition and as per a forum discussion(I need to find the source) the piston was changed to short stroke rather the conventional Tavor long stroke piston, that changes reliability aspect too.
so I'd say lets wait and watch.

edit: found the discussion
https://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=13240.0


IWI also have the ACE 52 galil.

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 245
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 17 Aug 2018 17:45

ks_sachin wrote:This is not only about precision. Is the LMT gas or piston operated..

This is my personal view that IA being a trained force supposed to be more precise and we should give them the best tool available. Spraying bullet like a haji is not the job of a trained man and precision in the rifle is paramount if IA wants to increase the first shot hit ratio.
and yes LMT is gas operated. other than that there are many more nice features like monolithic rail, floating barrel etc.

Why do you say long stroke is more reliable than short stroke...
Have you seen how well designed the tavor 7 is. They need to update the 5.56.

Not saying one is more reliable than the other but the overall reliability of Tavor 7 rifle is not tested yet in battle condition. FWIW AKs are long stroke piston.
Ace 52 would have been a more known element to IA as it is based on AKs design.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 17 Aug 2018 18:05

I believe Ace 52 is the preferred weapon.
Re precision the Army does not spray lime a alhahi even with the AK. All the weapons on the list have more or less similar accracy. So LMT does not bring something exceptional to table.
The Tavor 7 itself may not be battle tested but its essential design is well tested. Materials are tested platics and mettljrgy. Long strole vs short stroke not really an issue...its not as if the tavor 7 is a radically new design...
Think about what potentially could go wrong...i dont see an issue...
LMTs gas piston is more of an issue..

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 245
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 17 Aug 2018 19:21

All the rifles we are discussing are gas-operated. Difference is in piston stroke. So only LMT cannot have that against him. The thing is LMT is not a piston type but a Direct Impinging type like a typical AR.
Also I don't agree with your point that Tavor 7's essential design is tested. Operating method must also be a part of the design which is different and ergo makes the design different. We can only safely say the furniture is tested.
Infact Tavor 7 and CAR 817 are not even inducted in any army yet, and F90 is inducted but Australian Army person has this to say about F90
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/the-ef88-versus-the-m4ar-15-a-special-operators-perspective/
As a last point LMT MWS has been inducted in British as well as NZ army as DMR. so there must be some precision gain that can be had by LMT.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Aug 2018 03:53

souravB wrote:All the rifles we are discussing are gas-operated. Difference is in piston stroke. So only LMT cannot have that against him. The thing is LMT is not a piston type but a Direct Impinging type like a typical AR.
Also I don't agree with your point that Tavor 7's essential design is tested. Operating method must also be a part of the design which is different and ergo makes the design different. We can only safely say the furniture is tested.
Infact Tavor 7 and CAR 817 are not even inducted in any army yet, and F90 is inducted but Australian Army person has this to say about F90
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/the-ef88-versus-the-m4ar-15-a-special-operators-perspective/
As a last point LMT MWS has been inducted in British as well as NZ army as DMR. so there must be some precision gain that can be had by LMT.

Good debate Sourav.
While all are gas operated I am no fan of direct impingement. For me the boys piston is a better option. The brits wanted a DMR as 7.62 as their standard issue is 5.56 so it probably was also about range. We want to be 7.62 army entirely. If we were so worried about that we would have converted some FNFALs to DMR role.

I agree on your point about tavor but I think it will be fine. I cannot foresee problems. I mean it aint likely to be as problematic as the insas and ergonomically it is fantastic. Converting a short stroke to long stroke is not particularly a risk.if have taken onboard the learnings from the IDF tavor then i dont see a problem.
Anyhow grapevine has it that Galil Ace 52 is preffered.

The question is which 7.62 rifle is in wide service today.

Perhaps only Ace. That means only IWI for me has some pedigree in this caliber today. The f90 7.62 is not in ser ice.

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3162
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 18 Aug 2018 05:23

ks_sachin wrote:Anyhow grapevine has it that Galil Ace 52 is preffered.

The question is which 7.62 rifle is in wide service today.

Perhaps only Ace. That means only IWI for me has some pedigree in this caliber today.


Then why was it not shrtlisted? :-?

Is it that IWI wants to push the Tavor on India instead of the Galil?

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 245
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 18 Aug 2018 05:58

ks_sachin wrote:The question is which 7.62 rifle is in wide service today.

Perhaps only Ace. That means only IWI for me has some pedigree in this caliber today. The f90 7.62 is not in ser ice.

It actually depends on what modernization of infantry actually mean for top brass. If IA aims for higher First shot hit ratio, Ace would not be my top choice. Ace is in a nutshell NATO compatible AK. which would not be a bad thing if we still hold onto the old mentality of going nuts at the enemy. Ace is more reliable in case of brutal use scenario, which should not be the case in a modern infantry. Muzzle rise while firing is a tradeoff in long piston and leads to less accuracy.
I think the choice would define whether IA as an infantry want to keep being the blunt instrument of force or change it's doctrine in this modernization process and become a precise and surgical instrument.
I would support Tavor or CAR just for the reason of modernization.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Aug 2018 06:39

Ek goli ek dushman!
No one goes spray and pray unless one needs to. In a CI firegight you cannot avoid that.
You have to make a distinction between regular and CI engagements.
Knowing our conditions i would like something robust. The only compatibility of Ace with NATO is caliber. Otherwise new and the tradeoffs are there even with a weapon like SCAR H.
I think that of all the 7.62s ACE it is for me.
Grapevine had it that ACE was preferred as was Negev. But then the IA cannot seem to be able to organise a drinks party in a pub WRT small arms!!!
Really boils down to what the IA sees as the army of the future...

By the way great to be talking small arms....

Have you had a look at the field strip os ta or 7. Magic....

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Aug 2018 06:44

Kakkaji wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Anyhow grapevine has it that Galil Ace 52 is preffered.

The question is which 7.62 rifle is in wide service today.

Perhaps only Ace. That means only IWI for me has some pedigree in this caliber today.


Then why was it not shrtlisted? :-?

Is it that IWI wants to push the Tavor on India instead of the Galil?

Who says it is not. Punj loyd also can do the Ace.

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1077
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 18 Aug 2018 11:38

souravB wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:This is not only about precision. Is the LMT gas or piston operated..

This is my personal view that IA being a trained force supposed to be more precise and we should give them the best tool available. Spraying bullet like a haji is not the job of a trained man and precision in the rifle is paramount if IA wants to increase the first shot hit ratio.
and yes LMT is gas operated. other than that there are many more nice features like monolithic rail, floating barrel etc.

Why do you say long stroke is more reliable than short stroke...
Have you seen how well designed the tavor 7 is. They need to update the 5.56.

Not saying one is more reliable than the other but the overall reliability of Tavor 7 rifle is not tested yet in battle condition. FWIW AKs are long stroke piston.
Ace 52 would have been a more known element to IA as it is based on AKs design.


My 2 paisa

On the Topic of TAVOR 7 not being battle Tested - The Indian Army has a great deal of comfort around that. When the TAR-21 was first introduced in the early 2000s it was also not battle tested. Infact the first batch of 300 odd rifles send to the SFF/SG was promptly junked and sent back in a few months. IWI did a quick turnaround in fixing the issues and improvements with zero fuss before production for the total order begun and the changes even went into what the israelis call the X-95 today. The Israelis went on to adopt of the X-95 as their standard battle rifle.

From what I have heard the IA and IWI has a pretty good working relationship and there is certain amount of trust there.

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 245
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 18 Aug 2018 16:36

ks_sachin wrote:Ek goli ek dushman!
No one goes spray and pray unless one needs to. In a CI firegight you cannot avoid that.
You have to make a distinction between regular and CI engagements.
Knowing our conditions i would like something robust. The only compatibility of Ace with NATO is caliber. Otherwise new and the tradeoffs are there even with a weapon like SCAR H.
I think that of all the 7.62s ACE it is for me.
Grapevine had it that ACE was preferred as was Negev. But then the IA cannot seem to be able to organise a drinks party in a pub WRT small arms!!!
Really boils down to what the IA sees as the army of the future...

By the way great to be talking small arms....

Have you had a look at the field strip os ta or 7. Magic....

yeah, it had been great discussing on the merit of the guns.
actually for the first time in my short life, the LMT MWS had made me a fan, the only prevalent criticism I had heard about it was it's price.
Would you suppose price was one of the factor they considered while shortlisting the OEMs? or they only do that on the merit and then tenders are float.
I haven't researched Tavor 7 much since it is new but it seems I have to do it now.. :D
rkhanna wrote:From what I have heard the IA and IWI has a pretty good working relationship and there is certain amount of trust there.

if there is then very good.. Punj-Lloyd can become the next RF, Ishapore. Tavor7 can be the main stay of Infantry. will the cost of acquisition permit that?

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 245
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 31 Aug 2018 23:42

MPT-76 The new Turkish Infantry Battle Rifle



Overall seems a nice rifle with modern feature sets to boot. Reliability must also be okay if Turkish Infantry has selected it. We should be looking at this more hawkishly cause it might be seen in the hands of TSP army in the future too.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 682
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 01 Sep 2018 05:09

Where are you at with your Tavor 7 research?
The turkish rifle is evolutionary and not revolutionary...but my ego does not allow me to consider them...
Surely Tavor 7 for the teeth and a desi 7.72x51 for tail. With some scientific inputs from DRDO we can arrive at an optimum balance betwee. Recoil and muzzle climb...

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 245
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 01 Sep 2018 07:12

ks_sachin wrote:Where are you at with your Tavor 7 research?

uhh not much info. But Tavor 7 looks impressive on the presentations. Firing pin and block is easy to clean, 4 way gas adjuster, good stock muzzle break that helps with climb. all in all a less frills and more work type rifle. Downsides will be a bit heavy and comes in only 1 size, cannot adjust according to shooter.
The turkish rifle is evolutionary and not revolutionary...but my ego does not allow me to consider them...

still they have a rifle that can atleast be put in some kind of ranking with the modern ARs. Now compare that to our OFB 7.62 NATO, they still have to have 18" barrel to provide sufficient velocity to the round, still weld the hand guard to the barrel, iron sights are a farce, monolithic P rail is still a dream.
and I am quite positive that in less than 2-3 years Pak army is going to fielding these rifles. They don't have money to buy czech Brenn or Polish MSBS let alone HK or SigS. So there's only Turkey who can provide them favorable terms.
Surely Tavor 7 for the teeth and a desi 7.72x51 for tail. With some scientific inputs from DRDO we can arrive at an optimum balance betwee. Recoil and muzzle climb...

Muzzle climb can be reduced to a nice extent by using a good muzzle break. Galil Ace for all its shortcomings in accuracy, shoots very straight due to it's dual chambered muzzle break. Recoil mitigation for a manageable weight is a fool's exercise in 308, the round is just too damn big.
If you ask me, IMO DRDO shouldn't even be designing guns. we can actually save a lot of money if we use them to develop more technological equipment and just import or manufacture here all the guns that we need, which will save us some money.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: chiru, Kakarat and 35 guests