Small Arms Thread

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ks_sachin
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Sep 2018 06:10

souravB wrote:In my view(as just a gun enthusiast civilian) multiple calibers are required for various role but somebody somewhere needs to fix a number. A proper planning with 10-15 years in vision is necessary. One quote I remember which aptly describe the situation
Better is the enemy of Best

multiple solutions to same problem has it's disadvantages.
for an example, as DMR, IA uses .338 as well as .308. Granted .338 is a better caliber but at 800m both the bullet will kill a man if hit, so is it worth carrying that extra round just as a DMR round if everybody else in your squad carries .308.

Sourav we dont use 7.62x51 as DMR. Dragunov is used.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 18 Sep 2018 13:49

ks_sachin wrote:Sourav we dont use 7.62x51 as DMR. Dragunov is used.

but of course we do. namely
1. Galil Sniper rifle
2. H&K PSG1
List of IA infantry arms
I made an error while stating IA uses .338 LAPUA but actually what I meant that they are looking for that caliber to replace Dragunov.
RFI for the same
The 338 goes into proper sniper caliber. I do not think it would be a good fit for a DMR.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 18 Sep 2018 21:23

We have imported huge amount of MP5 & BREUGET 9mm useless SMGs. Guess why? Primarily because it's most costly small arm in our inventory is RS. 1.2 lakh each. So it's primary purpose is waste of money. In military & terrorist attacks 7.62*39 or equivalent is round required but we went to useless 9mm

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 19 Sep 2018 01:12

Gyan wrote:We have imported huge amount of MP5 & BREUGET 9mm useless SMGs. Guess why? Primarily because it's most costly small arm in our inventory is RS. 1.2 lakh each. So it's primary purpose is waste of money. In military & terrorist attacks 7.62*39 or equivalent is round required but we went to useless 9mm

Aside from easy handling, an MP-5 type SMG is preferred in an MOUT/CT environment precisely because of its lower range and lower penetration.

7.62x39 can be a potential liability in the same situation. For one, the recoil is significant, requiring greater training to operate. For another, at shorter ranges, it'll punch through tissue and keep going, making it dangerous to civilians in the area.

Elite SF/CT units train intensively with live ammunition to control their responses while under fire. The average beat cop, on the other hand, is likely to be far less calm and discriminatory in a high stress situation. And the last thing you need in a crowded place with a terrorist threat is casualties to friendly fire.

It doesn't matter if the fire doesn't immediately kill the threat as long as he's incapacitated, or at least wounded enough to significantly hamper his mobility, allowing the general public to get clear of the area.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Sep 2018 03:07

souravB wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Sourav we dont use 7.62x51 as DMR. Dragunov is used.

but of course we do. namely
1. Galil Sniper rifle
2. H&K PSG1
List of IA infantry arms
I made an error while stating IA uses .338 LAPUA but actually what I meant that they are looking for that caliber to replace Dragunov.
RFI for the same
The 338 goes into proper sniper caliber. I do not think it would be a good fit for a DMR.

Special forces maybe. But regular infantry? That is a general list of inf weapons. Does not mean it is used broadly.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Sep 2018 13:18

But watching thee programme on the Pathankot attack both our NSG and Garud's came worse off while engging terrorists with 5.56 and MP5 9mm. We even spotted them with a UAV but could not engage them with it. Some of the areas where we need to learn.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby dinesh_kimar » 19 Sep 2018 13:43

9mm SMG use apparently resulted in good German squad performance in WW2.

Heavier and more accurate firepower than conventional Rifles, easier to operate due to lightweight and smaller dimensions, especially in close combat up to 100-150 feet.

They started using Sten guns, and our army followed suit.

In old pics from 80s, our commando / assault squads all carry Sten guns.

So, SMG is still required for Junior Leader/ Squad Leader roles.

That may be reason B&T / H&K still imported in large nos.

A fine case for inducting the OFB carbine developed with 5.30 mm caliber.

Also, a chaiwalla talked abt IA young Officers and ORswho set their faith on AKs.

Stories are exchanged abt terrorist brothers running away after being hit by INSAS rounds.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Sep 2018 13:56

In world war II, when Assault rifles were came only in late into the war in 1944 in limited nos with the Germans with STG 44, it was common for the squad to carry long barreled repeater rifles and semi automatic rifles, in such a scenario the where modern body Armour was absent these sub machine guns with pistol rounds were very effective, but today with every Jihadi carrying an AK-56, I think its time we phase out 9mm from BSF, Army, NSG etc. These can be given to police forces. Pathankot and 26/11 we have lost 2 precious forces lives where MP5's have engaged Ak-56 in close combat situations. I strongly believe BSF equipping itself with Baretta was more a defanging exercise. It takes real guts to engage some one with an Ak-56 with a 9mm SMG.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 19 Sep 2018 14:34

In today's scenario, use of 9mm requires rigorous training where your reaction time is less than your adversary and you can put atleast two rounds in vital spots consecutively. Distance between you and your adversary is less than 15-20ft. 9mm for regular forces is suicide, even a situation where the distance to shoot is 50-60ft should be avoided.
5.56 MINSAS rounds should only be used by NSGs as they have that training in urban CT operations, not BSF/RR Jawans who engage terrorists at a distance.
5.56 MINSAS has a huge market in state police and other law enforcement to replace their 303. I do not see a situation where atleast IA/BSF/ITBP using it. 9mm weapons are called PDWs and not Assault weapon for a reason.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Sep 2018 14:50

One really wonders why BSF went for Italian imported Baretta's in 2012-13? IN WW2 SMG use was on Assualt of Bunkers for rapid fire at very short range, such a need today has been made obsolete by Carbines.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 19 Sep 2018 15:01

ks_sachin wrote:Special forces maybe. But regular infantry? That is a general list of inf weapons. Does not mean it is used broadly.

I would suppose ghatak squads and RRs would use PSG1, but yes, mainstay is Dragunov.
The point is once IA loses that boundary between Snipers and DMR, it becomes cumbersome for it and the soldier too to maintain operational agility.
for eg. 338 rounds are much heavier than 308, which results in much heavier gun, less bullet, constrained interoperabilty and carrying of a less useful secondary firearm. Now if the whole squad is carrying 308 and the marksman carries same caliber rifle with a longer barrel, all of this problem would not arise without much operational hindrance. It is evident from numerous dataplots that with some training and 20" barrel one can shoot 1000m very comfortably with a 308 with enough energy to kill a man. For ranges longer than that IA would use a dedicated sniper anyways.
US Infantry even uses 223 rounds for squad marksman to mitigate all these problem and it is known to be very effective upto 800m by numerous user accounts.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Sep 2018 15:47

souravB wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Special forces maybe. But regular infantry? That is a general list of inf weapons. Does not mean it is used broadly.

I would suppose ghatak squads and RRs would use PSG1, but yes, mainstay is Dragunov.
The point is once IA loses that boundary between Snipers and DMR, it becomes cumbersome for it and the soldier too to maintain operational agility.
for eg. 338 rounds are much heavier than 308, which results in much heavier gun, less bullet, constrained interoperabilty and carrying of a less useful secondary firearm. Now if the whole squad is carrying 308 and the marksman carries same caliber rifle with a longer barrel, all of this problem would not arise without much operational hindrance. It is evident from numerous dataplots that with some training and 20" barrel one can shoot 1000m very comfortably with a 308 with enough energy to kill a man. For ranges longer than that IA would use a dedicated sniper anyways.
US Infantry even uses 223 rounds for squad marksman to mitigate all these problem and it is known to be very effective upto 800m by numerous user accounts.

Ghatak or RR use Dragunov. There are 357 odd ghatak platoons in IA. Dont make them anything special pl. RR i have always seen with Dragunov. Their role is differeent.

Para SF maybe

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Sep 2018 15:48

Point is we do not have a dedicated sniper set up..

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 19 Sep 2018 17:15

Pakistan Army new Battle Rifle competition details
The main point that comes out of it is
Conclusion: No rifle passed all the tests without issues; however, the FN SCAR was the only rifle that was finalized, officially accepted, with licensed manufacturing approved.

However, since the completion of the trials, Pakistan has purchased 140,000 AK 103 rifles. The number of SCAR rifles purchased is zero – too expensive.


The list of companies that attended the competition is
• Beretta
• Kalashnikov
• Sig Sauer
• Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKEK)
• CZ
• PWS
• FN Herstal
• LWRC Intl
• Zastava Arms
• Anderson Manufacturing Inc
HK
• Hanwha
• Denel Land Systems
• Colt
• Steyr
• Armalite

HK doesnot sell guns to India for us being not Democratic enough but would sell it to Pakis who cannot even afford to buy it. :rotfl:

p.s. Mods if this post is not suitable for this thread, please feel free to ask, move or delete

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 29 Sep 2018 14:24

Well well..

US-made rifle, UAE carbine to equip Indian Army soldiers

A US-made battle rifle and a UAE-made carbine have emerged as the lowest bidders for the Indian Army's requirement for equipping its soldiers with a new rifle.

The US arm-maker SIG Sauer's SiG 716 finished with the 'L1' or lowest quote for the army's fast track procurement of 72,000 new automatic rifles.

The UAE arms firm Caracal's CAR 816 close-quarter carbine finished 'L1' in a separate bid for 94,000 carbines, when price bids were opened this week.


SIG Sauer, a firm with origins in a Swiss-German weapons consortium, is headquartered in New Hampshire, USA. Carbine-maker Caracal is based in Abu Dhabi, UAE.

Both countries are top diplomatic priorities for the Modi led government. These two FTP procurements are to be followed by a government-to-government deal with another diplomatic priority for the Modi government-Russia.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tsarkar » 29 Sep 2018 15:44

[img]https://img.etimg.com/thumb/msid-65996528,width-300,imgsize-335090,resizemode-4/two-day-parakram-parv-to-mark-second-anniversary-of-surgical-strikes-begins.jpg[/img]
IN Sniper Rifle

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nam » 29 Sep 2018 16:06

Sig Sauer had a Indian unit, which is under liquidation. Wonder who is going to produce them locally.

Apparently I read in the internet, that Sig Sauer imports precision parts from Indian manufacturers!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 30 Sep 2018 07:29

SiG 716 Calibre is 7.62x51
Car 816 Calibre is 5.56x45
Ak-103 Calibre is 7.62x39

Looks to me a logistics nightmare is in the making. :eek:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Austin » 30 Sep 2018 08:07

Kakkaji wrote:SiG 716 Calibre is 7.62x51
Car 816 Calibre is 5.56x45
Ak-103 Calibre is 7.62x39

Looks to me a logistics nightmare is in the making. :eek:


7.62*51 is for Army Special units and para same for carbine , general soldiers will carry AK

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 30 Sep 2018 19:53

Apparently Thales has filed a complaint against selection in carbine category.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby putnanja » 30 Sep 2018 20:32

Even the Korean embassy has sent a complaint to the MoD about their company being disqualified from trials even after satisfying all requirement.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nam » 30 Sep 2018 20:34

Disgusting that we do such a thing to weapon manufacturers.

Next time, we should follow the correct path .. and not send the RFP to them.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nam » 30 Sep 2018 20:37

Austin wrote:
7.62*51 is for Army Special units and para same for carbine , general soldiers will carry AK


Sig 716 is a battle rifle and we are buying 72,000 of them. We don't have that many SF in IA.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Austin » 30 Sep 2018 23:29

paracommando and other SF units of IA they will buys adequate reserves , 72K is a very small number for battle rfile , AK buy is 6.5 lacs that would fill some portion of battle rifle but not all.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 30 Sep 2018 23:37

Chalo, no more excuse.
Sad still 3 different cartridges.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nam » 30 Sep 2018 23:49

Austin wrote:paracommando and other SF units of IA they will buys adequate reserves , 72K is a very small number for battle rfile , AK buy is 6.5 lacs that would fill some portion of battle rifle but not all.


https://www.dailypioneer.com/2018/india/army-floats-global-tender-for-55l-rifles.html

the DAC last month approved the procurement of nearly 72,400 assault rifles and 93,985 carbines on a fast track basis to meet the urgent operational requirements of the troops deployed on the borders and engaged in counter-insurgency operations in Jammu & Kashmir and the North-East. The total cost of these two deals is Rs 3,547 crores.

The assault rifles will replace the Army’s existing standard issue Indian Small Arms System(INSAS)) rifle of 5.56 calibre which was designed some three decades ago. The new rifle will be 7.62 calibre, meaning the rifle can fire bigger ammunition at a range of 500 metres.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nam » 30 Sep 2018 23:51

ramana wrote:Chalo, no more excuse.
Sad still 3 different cartridges.


Atleast it is been bought. It is up to IA to manage the logistics, as they asked for it.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 03 Oct 2018 05:20

So Sig Sauer 716 7.62x51mm (72 k) rifles for front line and how many?
CAR 816 5.56 x45 mm (94 k) carbines who are these for?
AK -103 7.62x 39 mm (650K) rifles For RR and second line troops.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 03 Oct 2018 05:33

ramana wrote:So Sig Sauer 716 7.62x51mm (72 k) rifles for front line and how many?
CAR 816 5.56 x45 mm (94 k) carbines who are these for?
AK -103 7.62x 39 mm (650K) rifles For RR and second line troops.

I just dont understand this!!!
Are not RRs frontline?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 03 Oct 2018 07:06

SiG and Caracal purchases are off the shelf emergency purchases of phase 1 that is approximately 10-15% of rifle and 20% of carbine requirement.

Phase 2 will have a domestic competition of sorts to manufacture 7.62 NATO rifles and 5.56 NATO carbines. Completely different models may get selected in that competition.

If ishapore rifle.meets standards, it would get minimum 25% of overall 7.62 NATO rifle production numbers. If OFB can beat other manufacturers in open competition, they get all remaining 7.62 NATO rifle orders.

AK103 shall be for whoever wants a modern AKM pattern rifle. OFB is the driving force behind the contract. They even presented some prototype AK103 built at theirs last year.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 03 Oct 2018 08:22

Thakur so the sig will go to inf and RR?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby putnanja » 03 Oct 2018 09:00

AK103 is mainly for CI ops and RR, as they have found INSAS 5.56 unsuitable for that role. Even earlier, they had imported thousands of AK47s for CI ops in J&K and NE.

The Sig 7.62 is a bit confusing, as it wouldn't make sense to have around 75k of these, and another 2 lakh+ of a different type as and when they finalize on it.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Oct 2018 10:04

putnanja wrote:AK103 is mainly for CI ops and RR, as they have found INSAS 5.56 unsuitable for that role. Even earlier, they had imported thousands of AK47s for CI ops in J&K and NE.

The Sig 7.62 is a bit confusing, as it wouldn't make sense to have around 75k of these, and another 2 lakh+ of a different type as and when they finalize on it.


Looks like as Indicated in many articles and mentioned by many of us on BRF IA has now settled on 3 main types of Ammunition and 2 more common types of ammunition.

1) 7.62*39 AK family for COIN, Jungle warfare, close combat situations where this type excels

2) 7.62*51 for Desert, Mountain warfare where engagement ranges as well as most LMG', MMG

3) 9mm for pistol and Carbines as personal defence weapons

Then 2 other types

1) 7.62*54R for Drugonov's, BMP's, tanks and some Machine guns

2) 5.56*45 Nato for some special forces like Tavor, M-4 etc

The desi 5.56*45 based ammo is beign abandoned.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 03 Oct 2018 10:12

ks_sachin wrote:Thakur so the sig will go to inf and RR?


CQB (caracal) will most likely go to RR and SF. We will see SiG in supporting role there as well. SF and Ghatak will most likely get lions share of SiG. SiG 716 will also most likely fill in the role of marksman rifle with modern optics.

Overall it is going to be a khichdi of small arms. In the coming years we are likely to see the following small arms in use considering complete phase out of 1B1 in sf/army/navy/airforce/capf/nsg

SiG 716 - short stroke AR pattern 7.62 nato
Car 816 - short stroke AR pattern 5.56 nato
Phase 2 rifle 7.62 nato
Phase 2 carbine 5.56 nato
OFB Ishapore AR-2 7.62 nato
Tavor-21
Tavor SAR
X95
OFB Ak103 7.62x39
OFB TAR 7.62x39
OFB ghatak 7.62x39
Excalibur & Excalibur mk1 5.56 INSAS
MSMC/JVPC/Milaap 5.56 MINSAS
Yet to be selected .338 lapua sniper
Yet to be selected HMG
Yet to be selected LMG
Yet to be selected MMG
Yet to be selected hi-power 9mm replacement
Fn-SCAR-h
Fn-SCAR-l
Arsenal AKM (Romanian AKM are old and will be first to get replaced, CAPF have purchased a lot of Arsenal AKM over the years)
SiG 550 family 5.56NATO
Jericho 9mm pistols
Glock 9mm pistols
Fn-F2000 5.56 Nato
Fn-P90 5.7x28
Fn 5-7 5.7x28
HK mp5 family
Brugger and thommet mp9
Beretta F92 9mm
Colt / Fn / Bushmaster m4
PASGT 7.62 NATO sniper
OFB 7.62 NATO sniper
GALATZ 7.62 NATO sniper
Fn minimi 5.56 NATO
Steyr AUG 5.56 NATO
Galil SAR 5.56 NATO
Uzi and Micro Usi 9mm

To say the least, this list is indicative and not exhaustive.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 03 Oct 2018 12:01

But Caracal is 5.56x45. I thought RR wanted something with more stopping power????
What will the regular inf get?
Last edited by ks_sachin on 03 Oct 2018 12:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 03 Oct 2018 12:02

Ghatak platoons are really neither here nor there. Why are we making them to be some kind of SF?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nam » 03 Oct 2018 12:04

ks_sachin wrote:Ghatak platoons are really neither here nor there. Why are we making them to be some kind of SF?


It is required, else battalions will treat Para-SF as better trained infantry and call them for any spec ops that is required.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 03 Oct 2018 12:58

When is it reqd?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 03 Oct 2018 13:14

Sachin ji, Ghatak platoons are already trained for SF like roles.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 03 Oct 2018 13:16

Good work on the list, Sir ji. I thought you missed the Beretta Mx4 Storm. But then you have not considered the BSF for your list, have you?

Thakur_B wrote:
Overall it is going to be a khichdi of small arms. In the coming years we are likely to see the following small arms in use considering complete phase out of 1B1 in sf/army/navy/airforce/capf/nsg

SiG 716 - short stroke AR pattern 7.62 nato
Car 816 - short stroke AR pattern 5.56 nato
Phase 2 rifle 7.62 nato
Phase 2 carbine 5.56 nato
OFB Ishapore AR-2 7.62 nato
Tavor-21
Tavor SAR
X95
OFB Ak103 7.62x39
OFB TAR 7.62x39
OFB ghatak 7.62x39
Excalibur & Excalibur mk1 5.56 INSAS
MSMC/JVPC/Milaap 5.56 MINSAS
Yet to be selected .338 lapua sniper
Yet to be selected HMG
Yet to be selected LMG
Yet to be selected MMG
Yet to be selected hi-power 9mm replacement
Fn-SCAR-h
Fn-SCAR-l
Arsenal AKM (Romanian AKM are old and will be first to get replaced, CAPF have purchased a lot of Arsenal AKM over the years)
SiG 550 family 5.56NATO
Jericho 9mm pistols
Glock 9mm pistols
Fn-F2000 5.56 Nato
Fn-P90 5.7x28
Fn 5-7 5.7x28
HK mp5 family
Brugger and thommet mp9
Beretta F92 9mm
Colt / Fn / Bushmaster m4
PASGT 7.62 NATO sniper
OFB 7.62 NATO sniper
GALATZ 7.62 NATO sniper
Fn minimi 5.56 NATO
Steyr AUG 5.56 NATO
Galil SAR 5.56 NATO
Uzi and Micro Usi 9mm

To say the least, this list is indicative and not exhaustive.


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