NBC Suits and Warfare Discussion (Pictures)

[shyamd]

: Indian soldiers shift an injured man to an emergency treatment center during a mock exercise in the event of a Chemical and Biological terror attack, in Kolkata on April 17, 2008. Some 280 Indian solders took part in the mock exercise wearing protective gear and medical intervention systems.

[sum]

No gloves are used in an NBC environment(looks like a mock drill and hence, absence of gloves is strange!!)?

[shiv]

No gloves are used in an NBC environment(looks like a mock drill and hence, absence of gloves is strange!!)?

Yes this is strange because nobody can say this is NOT part of the exercise.

I wonder if this is some weird "cost saving" exercise where gloves - that are most likely to get punctured or worn by human use are least used. But that would defeat the purpose of the exercise at least in some ways. Other than surgical gloves, which are designed for a snug fit, dexterity and feel rather than great strength, all protective gloves that I know of reduce manual dexterity. That being the case I would expect that some practice in using those gloves while working would be useful. The other guess I am making is that maybe gloves come in disposable packets - and once again - it could be "cost savings" to not open glove packets. But that is just a guess. No real knowledge.

The last time there was a picture of a soldier without gloves I was inclined to dismiss it as a one off. But clearly - gloves are not being used fro exercises.

[gopal.suri]

Depends on the type of threat. There are soultions with which you can apply to your hands to operate in a particular environment. Especially the boilogical environment. Different threats have different procedures.

[Nayak]

During Gulf War, the US army was genuinely fearful of Saddam's nerve gas attack. The soldiers were well trained to attend to all NBC threats.

In the movie jarheads, they even play football in full NBC gear, in the desert heat.

Lack of gloves is a bit disturbing.

[shiv]

Depends on the type of threat. There are soultions with which you can apply to your hands to operate in a particular environment. Especially the boilogical environment. Different threats have different procedures.

Gopal Suri. Would you care to elaborate on the particular biological environments where gloves are not needed. I personally have several decades of experience in working in a biologically hazardous environments and I would like to be educated about those biologically hazardous environment and would like to learn what you know.

[gopal.suri]

Depends on the type of threat. There are soultions with which you can apply to your hands to operate in a particular environment. Especially the boilogical environment. Different threats have different procedures.

Gopal Suri. Would you care to elaborate on the particular biological environments where gloves are not needed. I personally have several decades of experience in working in a biologically hazardous environments and I would like to be educated about those biologically hazardous environment and would like to learn what you know.

Shiv. Working "in" and evacuation are two different things. There is a difference in concentration of agents in the "working environment." In NBC most evacuations happen after the area has been de-contaminated. Thats the first rule of Casvac.

Most BW agents will enter the body through inhalation. Although there are chances of agents entring your body via skin or wounds. Baring that exception (skin is very remote after de contamination, wound might need to be covered up) there is no need to cover your hands for such evecuations. The suit you see and the gas mask you see is to prevent other parts (which may be prone like inhalation of residue just incase and such things). There are other arguments too like the hands should not touch body fluids of the affected persons etc.

It is good to cover your hands but it is not necessary. Hand washing with soap and water or disinfictants or using de contamination fluids is enough.

[KiranM]

Shiv. Working "in" and evacuation are two different things. There is a difference in concentration of agents in the "working environment." In NBC most evacuations happen after the area has been de-contaminated. Thats the first rule of Casvac.

Most BW agents will enter the body through inhalation. Although there are chances of agents entring your body via skin or wounds. Baring that exception (skin is very remote after de contamination, wound might need to be covered up) there is no need to cover your hands for such evecuations. The suit you see and the gas mask you see is to prevent other parts (which may be prone like inhalation of residue just incase and such things). There are other arguments too like the hands should not touch body fluids of the affected persons etc.

It is good to cover your hands but it is not necessary. Hand washing with soap and water or disinfictants or using de contamination fluids is enough.

Not necessarily. BW contaminants can be trapped in your nails which will be difficult to remove/ neutralize regardless of washing with soap and disinfectants. Gloves are a necessity.

[gopal.suri]

KiranM,

There are initial 3 stages in this type of casvac. 1st a recee vehicle comes in for measuring contamination. Then the de contamination vehicles and personal de contaminators come in. In BW area these germs are extremely sensitive to environment. They die off in such an environment. In normal life your nails gather so many biological agents as they it is not sanitised. In a particual sanitaised envirinment like event of a BW casvac, the normal day agents get neautrilised too.

[Nayak]

Gopal what about chemical attacks ?

[shiv]

Shiv. Working "in" and evacuation are two different things. There is a difference in concentration of agents in the "working environment." In NBC most evacuations happen after the area has been de-contaminated. Thats the first rule of Casvac.

Most BW agents will enter the body through inhalation. Although there are chances of agents entring your body via skin or wounds. .

Can you be more specific? Which BW agents? I believe you are breaking new ground in science here because working practices in hospitals can change from your views. Especially if you are in an environment where you have no idea what specific agent is present you are saying it's OK to work without gloves. The skin of the hands often have microscopic injuries through which infective agents can spread. It has been shown that as few as two bacteria are enough to establish an infection of plague. Do you know how big a scratch you need to get that much in?

Anthrax can infect both via inhalation and via skin and does not die easily at all. There are specific and well established reasons for wearing simple and inexpensive rubber gloves in a hazardous biological environment when you might not need a special suit at all.

I believe that you are wrong, or bluffing or both. Or your source is a disaster waiting to happen.

[shiv]

KiranM,

There are initial 3 stages in this type of casvac. 1st a recee vehicle comes in for measuring contamination.Then the de contamination vehicles and personal de contaminators come in. In BW area these germs are extremely sensitive to environment. They die off in such an environment..

Could you explain how biological contamination is measured and classified by a vehicle on the spot within minutes - or even an hour or two?

Could you explain how you obtained information that biological warfare agents are so sensitive to the environment without specifying what agents you are talking about?

[shiv]

In NBC most evacuations happen after the area has been de-contaminated. Thats the first rule of Casvac..

Could you please explain how your assertion about the "first rule of casevac" squares up with the photograph below, copied from the previous page? It appears that the casualty is being shifted to a decontamination center first - and the decontamination is yet to occur. How are these soldiers so confident that they are safe from biological hazards? Someone may be bluffing and misleading them. After all they are only soldiers - not doctors, or reporters.

: Indian soldiers shift an injured man to an emergency treatment center during a mock exercise in the event of a Chemical and Biological terror attack, in Kolkata on April 17, 2008. Some 280 Indian solders took part in the mock exercise wearing protective gear and medical intervention systems.

[gopal.suri]

Shiv,

What your hospital atmosphere is, i have no clue. You can see the army men do not have a glouse. Infact, none of them have it.

The process of detection, decontamination and evacuation has been explained above. You have also seen a band on their arms, just above the elbows . The hand movement till the elbow is needed. Otherwise how will they operate their hands and fingures? have to tries zipping up a bag using a stiff glouse?

WRT the anthrax, anthrax detection kits are included in the above mentioned mobile laboratories. Infact DRDO has supplied kits to even WHO. So detecting is 1st thing which is taken care of.

I would rather ask, which agent you want to know about?

Nayak,

Gopal what about chemical attacks ?

Some key detectors for chemical weapons by DRDO are Water poison detection kit, Residual vapour detection kit, three color detector paper (for blister, nerve, V agents etc), portable gas chromotograph (for quantitative and qualitativeanalysis of CW agents in ambient air) etc. they are capable of detecting all known chemicals.

then the usual procedure, i.e, decontamination and evacuation etc.

One thing is N (tactical nuke)BC warfare, its usefull to attack an unprepared enemy or its a temproray denial system.

If you give the enemy few minutes (depends on the quality of attacking agent) to prepare , then these weapons have little use. The other problem is that it is for a limited area use and the defending party need not sanitize the entire area, just selective area to evacuation.

[gopal.suri]

KiranM,

There are initial 3 stages in this type of casvac. 1st a recee vehicle comes in for measuring contamination.Then the de contamination vehicles and personal de contaminators come in. In BW area these germs are extremely sensitive to environment. They die off in such an environment..

Could you explain how biological contamination is measured and classified by a vehicle on the spot within minutes - or even an hour or two?

Could you explain how you obtained information that biological warfare agents are so sensitive to the environment without specifying what agents you are talking about?

Shiv,

How, when, why, to get mobile labs up there is not discussed here, ask army. thats not the scope. I have expained you, what is the usual procedure for such an eventuality. The casvac is not allowed to enter a contaminated area.

[gopal.suri]

In NBC most evacuations happen after the area has been de-contaminated. Thats the first rule of Casvac..

Could you please explain how your assertion about the "first rule of casevac" squares up with the photograph below, copied from the previous page? It appears that the casualty is being shifted to a decontamination center first - and the decontamination is yet to occur. How are these soldiers so confident that they are safe from biological hazards? Someone may be bluffing and misleading them. After all they are only soldiers - not doctors, or reporters.

Shiv, first the area is decontaminated for Casvac to operate. The victims are sent for further decontmination/treatment what ever you may call it. Other things have been addressed in previous posts.

[sunilUpa]

A casual google search of working under NBC enviornment reveals that no part of human body is exposed. If gloves were not required, they need not wear the NBC suit either, respiratory protection alone should suffice.

[gopal.suri]

A casual google search of working under NBC enviornment reveals that no part of human body is exposed. If gloves were not required, they need not wear the NBC suit either, respiratory protection alone should suffice.

Normall, but again , depending on situation as I asserted in the first post. In addition the Armed Forces have their mandatory requirement, the NBC Casvac gear requirement is set by it . DRDO has this training courses for armed forces as well as it sets standards for such ops.

[shiv]

Gopal Suri - to me it is clear that you know nothing about how to work in a biological hazard environment, and you state that you do not know the army procedures.("ask army" is what you say)

Note that the army gets its inputs from medical professionals about this and there are standard procedures that the army is advised about.

Either way you don't know and will be unable to bluff your way out. But you and BRF are both unimportant.

Those soldiers should have been wearing gloves in a real NBC environment. They are not wearing gloves.

I sincerely hope that they are not wearing gloves ("glouse") because of some semi-genuine reason like cost savings in an exercise, and not because some army person has bluffed to them and told them that gloves are unnecessary. That is more worrying than bluffing on BRF which happens from time to time.

.

[vivek_ahuja]

Shiv,

Even cost saving issues should be treated as criminal neglect because it takes practice to work with gloves what you normally do with bare hands. It may not lead to being unable to do the work at all, but will certainly slow the soldier down if they do it for the first time in real tactical environments. Exercises and practice are all about preparation. Denying the same means that this is just a PR exercise, much like most of the exercises that the Army puts on display for outsiders nowadays.

Hopefully they are doing things the right way behind the scenes.

On a sidenote, there are chemical agents used as CW weapons for decades that are highly corrosive to all forms of flesh. There is no excuse as such for going into any such areas with any part of the skin exposed. Some of the biological agents are worse, and act directly through skin. oing into such an environment with bare hands is scary, and if this is the level of Army equipment availability, then that in itself is quite chilling.

-Vivek

[gopal.suri]

Gopal Suri - to me it is clear that you know nothing about how to work in a biological hazard environment, and you state that you do not know the army procedures.("ask army" is what you say)

Note that the army gets its inputs from medical professionals about this and there are standard procedures that the army is advised about.

Either way you don't know and will be unable to bluff your way out. But you and BRF are both unimportant.

Those soldiers should have been wearing gloves in a real NBC environment. They are not wearing gloves.

I sincerely hope that they are not wearing gloves ("glouse") because of some semi-genuine reason like cost savings in an exercise, and not because some army person has bluffed to them and told them that gloves are unnecessary. That is more worrying than bluffing on BRF which happens from time to time.

.

So, enlighten us Shiv what you know so much on these procedures. You seem to be passing some vague judgements. Let see if you are bluffing or not.

[niran]

Gentlemen,
Not only no gloves, none of them have proper foot wear, which is,
a below knee rubberized boots worn "inside" of the suit.

few "maybe" comes to my mind
(a) The boots and The gloves comprises 3/4 of the suit cost(excluding the breathing apparatus which is bought separately) to save cost they are not using it.
(b) Army procurement/MoD Babu bungled and did not order them.
(c) Army procurement/MoD Babu never knew it is part of equipment.
(d) Since it is clumsy to use, IA people were not using them, in training.

[vivek_ahuja]

Ajay,

You can throw out choice (d) because the whole point of the "exercise" is supposed to be to train the soldiers to use the equipment. If it is clumsy to use then all the more reason they should be using it in exercises.

And I hope it is not choice (a) either, but that seems to be the case here, I would think.

[Nayak]

The grunts need training on working with their gloves to get a feel of real time experiences. If army is cutting costs it is a shame.
Ajay you are right about the shoes part. Imagine the training required to work in an situation similar to anthrax/mustard gas attacks.

[gopal.suri]

I got the permission to scan some pics on some suits I want to show you. It includes the suit you see in the above pics.

[niran]

I got the permission to scan some pics on some suits I want to show you. It includes the suit you see in the above pics.

When shall we expect to see them?

[gopal.suri]

I could scan just one before scanner conked.

This is from one of the manuals for NBC. Decontamination Suite.

Anyway, whithout the other pics, I will not be able to say what I want. I will to wait for someone to get scanner up.

Anyway, about this suit: light weight nylon fabric coated both sides with impermeable rubber formulation. protects aganst toxic gasses, liquids and radioactive dust fall out. Made by bengal waterproof ltd and swastic rubber products.

[Sanjay]

Gentlemen, I am also very surprised. However, it's not the first time I've seen an NBC exercise without gloves.

Back in the 1980s I have some indication of similar NATO exercises. I do not know why nor will I pretend to understand why.

What I do know is that there is no shortage of gloves and every single NBC exercise conducted in India prior to this used gloves and there is no shortage.

What perhaps we need to ascertain is what stage of the exercise these photos were taken from - if post decontamination then it's not too bad.

Again, the reasoning for the lack of gloves is odd in that there is no shortage of gloves.

[shiv]

So, enlighten us Shiv what you know so much on these procedures. You seem to be passing some vague judgements. Let see if you are bluffing or not.

I take this as an admission that you don't know and were either guessing blindly or bluffing, just as I expected.

The presence of biological agents in the environment is not as easily detectable as radioactivity or chemical agents. Bacteria cannot be picked up by scanners and the presence of spores of agents such as anthrax may not be picked up at all until infections start occurring.

A biological attack with anthrax may go completely undetected until people start getting infected.

Standard protocols exist to isolate patients and try and pin down the geographic area of an attack. This may be perfectly obvious if most of the cases seem to be occurring in one area. If not, a common link may be found by checking if sufferers had visited any particular place.

I will not expand on hospital procedures because they are well known. All people with unknown diseases that could be infectious are handled by standard protocols in all hospitals. The basic equipment for handling involves GLOVES IN ALL CASES, masks and protective eye gear. Whole body protection is not required.Diagnosis is made by symptoms, signs and blood tests and bacteriological cultures. Treatment rests on anti-infective agents where possible, or supportive therapy where that is not possible. Extreme infective agents require patient isolation and barrier nursing. These are all standard run of the mill procedures because hospitals are regularly dealing with deadly biological agents.

But once a geographic area is isolated as possibly being the source of a biological attack it needs to be isolated and decontaminated. Isolation involves preventing the entry and egress of people from the area except authorized personnel. Spraying of high risk contaminated areas with known disinfectants such as formaldehyde, glutaraldehye or phenol needs to be done. Food material must be discarded and disposed safely.. Animals at risk of spreading infection need to be slaughtered and corpses disposed by burning. Humans need to be washed down and isolated. Clothes must be removed by people who are gloved and masked and disposed of in plastic bags to be burnt. There is no secret here that the army requires to be asked about. Any public health textbook will give you what you need.

It is the likelihood of deadly chemical agents that act instantly that require breathing apparatus to filter the atmosphere and protection of the entire body surface. Radiological contamination cannot be "neutralized" - it needs to be physically washed down and the washings must not be allowed to enter the water supply chain if possible - but that might not be feasible in an emergency.

Hope this helps. If you need more detailed info - please email me on admin email and I will guide you in the right direction insofar as I can do.

[ASPuar]

So, enlighten us Shiv what you know so much on these procedures. You seem to be passing some vague judgements. Let see if you are bluffing or not.

One probably shouldnt argue about Bio-hazard procedures with a doctor...

They tend to worry, (and thus know) more about these things than your average Joe.

[sombhat]

So, enlighten us Shiv what you know so much on these procedures. You seem to be passing some vague judgements. Let see if you are bluffing or not.

One probably shouldnt argue about Bio-hazard procedures with a doctor...

One probably shouldnt argue about Bio-hazard procedures in the Military pictures thread. This whole page has just 2 pics . Could we please end this or take this to some "NBC" thread, if any such exist.
Thanks.

[tsarkar]

NBC suits are very uncomfortable to work in. Personnel become slow and lose dexterity. Cleaning and maintenance after use is exhaustive. Shelf life of equipment is low.

In my view, this exercise was probably a PR event for media benefit. The location looks like Fort William/Esplanade.

The brass wanted a snappy turnout and sharp performance, hence official mandate was probably given for dispensing gloves. The men would have worked extremely slow if wearing gloves and in top brass view, that might have given out a wrong impression of tardiness. In addition, dexterity is limited while wearing gloves that could be misinterpreted as sloppiness.

The showmanship creeping into the services is disturbing. The Longewala reenactment, the dozens of trucks modified with chairs, etc are money wasting activities. On the other hand, this enables services to reach out to decision makers with budgetary powers. It also allows – via media – to reach out to the public that are its potential recruitment pool. Earlier most reporters declined participation in exercises because of the hardships involved.

[gopal.suri]

So, enlighten us Shiv what you know so much on these procedures. You seem to be passing some vague judgements. Let see if you are bluffing or not.

I take this as an admission that you don't know and were either guessing blindly or bluffing, just as I expected.

Thats your personal opinion. Your reply shows the bluff. You are skirting the issue and talking about rest of the things.

So, enlighten us Shiv what you know so much on these procedures. You seem to be passing some vague judgements. Let see if you are bluffing or not.

Hope this helps. If you need more detailed info - please email me on admin email and I will guide you in the right direction insofar as I can do.

No, i don't need to email to you. let us discuss it here.

The presence of biological agents in the environment is not as easily detectable as radioactivity or chemical agents. Bacteria cannot be picked up by scanners and the presence of spores of agents such as anthrax may not be picked up at all until infections start occurring.

A biological attack with anthrax may go completely undetected until people start getting infected.

This was not the scope of the earlier discussion. The point was the rescue part.

Standard protocols exist to isolate patients and try and pin down the geographic area of an attack. This may be perfectly obvious if most of the cases seem to be occurring in one area. If not, a common link may be found by checking if sufferers had visited any particular place.

How is different from what I said?

I will not expand on hospital procedures because they are well known. All people with unknown diseases that could be infectious are handled by standard protocols in all hospitals. The basic equipment for handling involves GLOVES IN ALL CASES, masks and protective eye gear. Whole body protection is not required.Diagnosis is made by symptoms, signs and blood tests and bacteriological cultures. Treatment rests on anti-infective agents where possible, or supportive therapy where that is not possible. Extreme infective agents require patient isolation and barrier nursing. These are all standard run of the mill procedures because hospitals are regularly dealing with deadly biological agents.

This was also out of scope of earlier discussion. I have not writen about hospital procedures.

But once a geographic area is isolated as possibly being the source of a biological attack it needs to be isolated and decontaminated. Isolation involves preventing the entry and egress of people from the area except authorized personnel. Spraying of high risk contaminated areas with known disinfectants such as formaldehyde, glutaraldehye or phenol needs to be done. Food material must be discarded and disposed safely.. Animals at risk of spreading infection need to be slaughtered and corpses disposed by burning. Humans need to be washed down and isolated. Clothes must be removed by people who are gloved and masked and disposed of in plastic bags to be burnt. There is no secret here that the army requires to be asked about. Any public health textbook will give you what you need.

It is the likelihood of deadly chemical agents that act instantly that require breathing apparatus to filter the atmosphere and protection of the entire body surface. Radiological contamination cannot be "neutralized" - it needs to be physically washed down and the washings must not be allowed to enter the water supply chain if possible - but that might not be feasible in an emergency.

I have already said that the area is recceied and de contaminated. What is different that you are saying? Just that you elaborated the decontamination process, which was not the part of original the discussion.

I have not seen your reason why the hands should be protected after an area has been sanitasized or de contaminated during the Casualty evecuation?

[gopal.suri]

Some of you mentioned shoes. If things are really required these over shoes can be worn. Over shoes is no brainer, its worn over the normal shoes. And like some implies here that just that it exists does not means that it should be worn.

[Sanku]

I have not seen your reason why the hands should be protected after an area has been sanitasized or de contaminated during the Casualty evecuation?

Fairly basic question guys; if hands dont have to be protected by gloves; whats the deal with face suits; mask and respirators?

Most NBC agents can as easily get in through the hands as compared to rest of the skin? In fact easier since hands to the actual work.

Why sweat in suit?

[gopal.suri]

I rather wait for Shiv to reply. The argument is with him.

[sauravjha]

I think tsarkar is probably right here . without the suits there will be no "effect" and with the gloves the "effect" will get dampened.

it could also be claimed , that the pic is of an area that has already been de-contaminated, and for speedy evac , the "gloves have to be off". the rest of the suit ain't off because it would take relatively more time to do so.

JMTP.

[shiv]

I rather wait for Shiv to reply. The argument is with him.

It's OK. You win. I do not intend to argue with you. I cannot win arguments with you. But I can recognise a troll when I see one.

[gopal.suri]

I rather wait for Shiv to reply. The argument is with him.

It's OK. You win. I do not intend to argue with you. I cannot win arguments with you. But I can recognise a troll when I see one.

You lost badly shiv. You are a pathetic looser. Anyway, since an egoistic admin is pissed, its time to say goodbye.

Since I won't be posting, you can post some bravado, to keep your ego intact in the forum Shiv. Goodbye.

[Rye]

and good riddance. "facts are just silly things" in the worldview of some jokers.