NBC Suits and Warfare Discussion (Pictures)

[Rahul M]

this thread needs a massive clean-up.

anyway, only situation I can think of where w/o gloves suit would be tolerated are gas contaminations which only affect the respiratory system. But, in that case, you won't need full body protection.

btw, in the pic of the full body suit gopal posted, the shoe doesn't look mighty
convenient. it looks like shoes from old gen diving bells.

[shiv]

You lost badly shiv. You are a pathetic looser. Anyway, since an egoistic admin is pissed, its time to say goodbye.

Since I won't be posting, you can post some bravado, to keep your ego intact in the forum Shiv. Goodbye.

It's your call. There are two issues here apart from any hurt egos that we may discover when the hype dies down.

1) The need to share views and learn
2) The need for decent norms of two way communication.

Neither is necessary in a one-way medium such as a newspaper or a portal that merely reports. That in fact is the basis for the manner in which major newsmedia like the BBC and Fox might trod roughshod with their views on anything. Obviously that attitude develops at the lowest levels. Some people cannot accept the responsibility that two way communication carries with it.

In a forum, people have to be different. Posters are held accountable, and the head of the BBC would not get more credibility even if he got the pleasure and satisfaction that he may deeply desire from hurting egos while continuing to talk trash. The point is not the hurt egos, but the ability to talk sense and gracefully accept responsibility for errors that anyone may make without squirming like a cornered rodent.

[sanjaykumar]

The presence of biological agents in the environment is not as easily detectable as radioactivity or chemical agents. Bacteria cannot be picked up by scanners and the presence of spores of agents such as anthrax may not be picked up at all until infections start occurring.

A biological attack with anthrax may go completely undetected until people start getting infected.


Dipicolinic acid detection has been used for anthrax, DNA hybridization, amplification tecnologies are probaably commercially available as well.

Gloves in hospitals are generally worn not to protect the physician but to protect the patient. It does not illuminate the NBC warfare envirnoment.

[sanjaykumar]

MOPP1 to 3 levels of NBC contamination do not mandate gloves. MOPP 4 does.

The point is not the hurt egos, but the ability to talk sense and gracefully accept responsibility for errors that anyone may make without squirming like a cornered rodent.



Exactly.Sometimes I am disappointed by the gratuitous abuse on this forum.

[shiv]

The presence of biological agents in the environment is not as easily detectable as radioactivity or chemical agents. Bacteria cannot be picked up by scanners and the presence of spores of agents such as anthrax may not be picked up at all until infections start occurring.

A biological attack with anthrax may go completely undetected until people start getting infected.


Dipicolinic acid detection has been used for anthrax, DNA hybridization, amplification tecnologies are probaably commercially available as well.

Gloves in hospitals are generally worn not to protect the physician but to protect the patient. It does not illuminate the NBC warfare envirnoment.

No argument about the tests, but a biological attack may not come to light until after the disease starts spreading, and after people have moved out of the contaminated area into other places - unlike a bomb that causes damage and radioactivity. If the disease is already manifesting itself other more readily available methods will indicate its nature and unless those newer tests are available at every single spot to which a contaminated person travels before he gets sick - those testing methods are of limited utility and applicable mainly to confirm that a biological attack is unlikely to be present in a particular area. This is useful information too, but then a chemical or radiological attack require gloves and better protection anyway, so one cannot do away with gloves.

The glove part is debatable. Health workers need protection too and it is bad practice to tell them that you are only protecting the patient; You don't need to protect yourself, Even if that were true it is difficult to ensure that you are not spreading bugs from your non-disposable hands to the canteen dining table, the lid of the sugar tin and bathroom tap, from where others will pick it up and spread it further. It is better to prevent the spread of infection from contaminated hands by using and disposing gloves and putting on new ones for each new act.

Handwashing (or chemical methods) to achieve adequate decontamination is an art and the medical profession the world over (and you and me as a result) are suffering from the consequences of an inability to enforce good practices in this regard in tens of thousands of hospital ICUs. On the other hand, there is almost no problem in any operating theater where it is standard practice to use and dispose gloves.

When the infective agent and level of risk are unknown - gloves are mandatory, no matter what their utility might or might not be otherwise.

if I had to instruct 19 to 25 year old medically untrained soldiers (who might include my own son) to work in a biologically hazardous environment that present an unknown and unquantifiable risk, - I would ask them to use gloves and not argue with them abut the philosophy of gloves versus handwashing.

[sanjaykumar]

There is a whole literature on NBC protective gear and protocols. Rather than hand-waving, I recomend developing some familiarity. NBC attack is now a recognized repertoire of the US emergency physician.



gopal.suri may be incompletely informed and inarticulate but he was not wrong on some points.
BR comprises/comprised several participants with "genius" IQs and post-dotoral qualifications. But we don't all have to be the same.

Abuse from the position of authority is the worst type of abuse.

[niran]

Gloves in hospitals are generally worn not to protect the physician but to protect the patient. It does not illuminate the NBC warfare envirnoment.

Wrong!
The Doctor wears gloves to protect himself.(particularly in ER which ia akin to NBC attack i.e. Emergency) In good Med. school usually
there is a huge Matron with a specific duty to ensure 100% glove complaince
by rookie students.
This should be the attitude of Soldiers in an NBC environment, i.e. protect
yourself first,

[shiv]

There is a whole literature on NBC protective gear and protocols. Rather than hand-waving, I recomend developing some familiarity. NBC attack is now a recognized repertoire of the US emergency physician.



gopal.suri may be incompletely informed and inarticulate but he was not wrong on some points.
BR comprises/comprised several participants with "genius" IQs and post-dotoral qualifications. But we don't all have to be the same.

Abuse from the position of authority is the worst type of abuse.

Sarcasm notwithstanding, the fact that the US "has protocols" does not mean that the US does not follow standard safe practice. Standard practice has to be protection where protection is needed. Protection is invariably needed when an unknown and unquantifiable risk of biological contamination is present. Protection may be dispensed with after quantifying and classifying that risk - but the suits are not required then.

Pertinent to this thread is the need for a protective suit and filtered mask for breathing without the need for gloves. Every single photograph of Indian soldiers we have seen in protective gear recently shows them in the ludicrous situation of wearing protective suits and mask, but no gloves. Exactly what protocols call for that remains a mystery to me.

I would be glad to hear of the specific US protocols that call for the use of a suit and mask with no gloves.I know of many situations in which suit and mask are not required - but gloves are required.

I did wonder if not wearing gloves was a cost saving measure. Perhaps that is wrong. There has to be some explanation and I just have not got beyond the information that people have protocols. Could it be that if the risk is low they can use their hands because it is so much easier to carry things with bare hands than slippery unwieldy gloves, but they remain ready to put on gloves if they are entering a known contaminated zone? If that is the case someone please tell me.

[shiv]

DNA hybridization, amplification tecnologies are probaably commercially available as well.

I would like to know which NBC recce vehicle that probes fro NBC contamination is capable of conducting these tests. The whole idea of the sequence of detecting first and decontaminating later becomes pointless if the initial detection is not possible.

[sanjaykumar]

Lordy

Take a close look at this sequence of photographs

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/mopp/mopp_s02.htm


Look at this advertisement for off the shelf DNA polymerase dependent pathogen detectors.

http://www.armedforces-int.com/categori ... -apsis.asp


And the inevitable detector arrays-biochips


http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:n55 ... =clnk&cd=4

[sum]

Take a close look at this sequence of photographs

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/mopp/mopp_s02.htm

So,from the photographs, are our men involved in a MOPP-2 simulation excercise?

[CPrakash]

MOPP levels 0-3 indicate 'probable' threats or 'negligible' threats.

MOPP level 4 and Alpha appear to be post attack standards and require gloves.

This document is useful http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/doctr ... 401200.pdf to assess what level of protection is required for what MOPP level.

Ofcourse all this talk is applicable when in the US. for all we know, india may have a different terminology / protocols.

Even applying the US standards, Going back to the photographs - the caption talks about 'in the event of B and C attacks' should be post event with considerable threat. I would not expect them to be anything less than MOPP 4.

[shiv]

Lordy

Take a close look at this sequence of photographs

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/mopp/mopp_s02.htm


Look at this advertisement for off the shelf DNA polymerase dependent pathogen detectors.

http://www.armedforces-int.com/categori ... -apsis.asp


And the inevitable detector arrays-biochips


http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:n55 ... =clnk&cd=4

This is useful information. Judging from the pictures the Indian soldiers we have seen are attired in what corresponds to (Mission Oriented Protective Posture) MOPP 3 - but this is for CHEMICAL threats in the pages linked.

Biological threats are a different ball game and I post excerpts of an article that speaks of significant differences in the approach to biological agents versus chemical agents. In particular note that this "recce vehicle" business may be completely redundant and useless in a bio attack, and when nobody knows the degree of threat, maximum protection is mandatory.

The article specifically mentions "Universal precautions" that are listed here

These include (I quote) "The risk of exposure is greatly minimized by the use of personal protective equipment such as, masks, lab coats, and gloves." Gloves.

Do not forget your gloves.


http://www.who.int/csr/delibepidemics/chapter4.pdf

A covert release, just like any other outbreak of
disease, will be detected only when patients begin to present at medical
facilities. The existing surveillance system should be able to detect
the outbreak and an epidemiological investigation will then be triggered.
The results of the investigation, coupled with clinical, laboratory or
environmental data, may indicate that the outbreak could have been the
result of a deliberate release. The importance of routine surveillance
and the prompt investigation of all outbreaks so that warning can be
given that an unusual outbreak may be under way have been discussed
in section 4.1 above. A threatened or overt release will generate
response requirements more akin to those in the early stages of a
chemical release, described below. While it is probable that signs and
symptoms in people and animals will provide confirmation that a
release has taken place, the sampling and detection of biological agents
in environmental substrates may also be required.

<snip>


The development of sensitive and rapid methods of detecting and
identifying biological agents in the environment will be difficult because
of the large number of potential agents. Significant advances will have
to be made in technology before such methods can be made widely
accessible, and they may therefore not be available for some time.

The extent to which laboratory support will be able to aid initial diagnosis
and treatment will depend on both the level of pre-incident preparation,
and the availability of a network of diagnostic laboratories. The nature
of the biological sample required, and the specific laboratory techniques
required for agent identification, will vary according to the nature of the
organism suspected. Definitive identification of a biological agent used
in a deliberate attack will also be forensically important. Detailed
analysis of the organism and its properties may allow it to be traced to
a source laboratory. This is a highly specialized activity, distinct from
the basic diagnostic procedures needed in outbreak management, and
is often outside the immediate interests and responsibility of the public
health sector.

<snip>
Protection of responders and health-care workers
The protection of responders and health-care workers is obviously
essential. In addition to compromising the ability to manage the incident,
the occurrence of infection in health-care workers may lead to the
perception among the population that health centres and hospitals
themselves constitute a high-risk source of infection. This may dis-
courage potentially infected persons from seeking treatment from the
local health-care providers, and lead them to travel to other health-care
facilities, thereby increasing the risk of secondary transmission if the
infection is contagious.

During the spread of a biological aerosol, the primary route of exposure
will be via the airways and respiratory tract. Respiratory protection
will then be the most important component of physical protection.
Particulate filters are generally adequate for biological agents (in
contrast to the activated-charcoal or similar filters that will be needed
for the filtration of air contaminated with chemical vapour).

Most of the agents of special concern do not cause contagious disease,
but some do, and if these become established in the population, the
spread of aerosol droplets, contact between infected body fluids and
mucous membranes or broken skin, and even ingestion may all be
involved in the secondary spread of the agent. Universal precautions
for dealing with potentially infective materials should therefore always
be taken. The protection of responders should be based on the standard
principles of barrier nursing and infection control (12, 16–17).

Here is another description of universal precautions against biological agents
http://www.osstf.on.ca/Default.aspx?DN= ... a07b7c0229

Note the emphasis on gloves.

[sanjaykumar]

If I may make a general comment-we who are trained in empirical fields and have access to Western life-styles ie un-Indian lifestyles, may see pictures of sipahis working barehand in a potentially toxic environment-and immediately conclude, even if subconciously, that these third-world chalta hai fellows are only doing what is expected.

I learnt sometime ago to never underestimate Indians. These are the same jawans who broke Pakistan's back in 1971 when they were supposed to be 1/10th as strong, fair, brave, and pious. These Indians are the same people I used to disparage as making nail-cutters that wouldn't cut now making space vehicles. These same people who aped the west now pioneering new models of doing (IT) business and aerospace technology (hypersonic propusion). Unfortunately if those soldiers had been white most would have sought an explanation for their bare hands rather than assume the worst.

[sauravjha]

I think this discussion could also go deeper into the kind of gloves that need to be worn for different situations .


in the future, biological agents that can dissolve all kinds of plastics , steel etc may be used in consort with anthrax et al. what is to be done then?

[niran]

I think this discussion could also go deeper into the kind of gloves that need to be worn for different situations .


in the future, biological agents that can dissolve all kinds of plastics , steel etc may be used in consort with anthrax et al. what is to be done then?[/b]

well this raises a very important question to be answered first.
In what would you store this universal dissolving agent?

[sauravjha]

good question, store it in something that this agent isn't designed to dissolve. Seriously the same agent won't be dissolving everything . I am not talking about a 'universal agent" at all. there could be one dissolving steel , another could be dissolving plastic etc,.

[Nayak]

Sanjaykumar please encode your urls dude.

[Sanku]

If I may make a general comment-we who are trained in empirical fields

Buddy on the same lines you should not underestimate the Indians on the forum; specifically Dr Shiv of the Chappals fame ; I think that you seem to start the discussion with a assumption about peoples thinking pattern that is not accurate. (of course I think what I think can be wrong too)

This is about understanding why the pics dont make sense.

Also note that the document you posted on the suits says that the garments may be of different types and vinyl over garment is used in extreme conditions.

It also says Troops potentially exposed to high concentrations of chemical warfare agents (e.g., decontamination crews) receive special impermeable overgarments.[23]

We see a picture with our jawans in vinyl over garments as opposed to Canvas ones; one would assume they are in a extreme situation which would also involve the need of gloves.

In this context what T Sarkar said about the photos from such events not being "real" training exercises and "real" photos not being available seems to make a lot more sense.

But then thats just me.

[shiv]

I think this discussion could also go deeper into the kind of gloves that need to be worn for different situations .

In fact one of the links posted above - I can't recall which one has a detailed listing of grades of gloves - with the thinnest latex ones being suitable for biological threats. That is perfectly rational.

Another interesting titbit from the Chem warfare MOPP 1/2/3/4 links posted by Sanjaykumar is possibly the rationale for wearing or not wearing gloves or mask. That is illustrated as a function of the time it takes from going from one state of readiness to a higher one - presumably because they are in a war zone and things can go kaboom any minute with one more shell from your friendly Lashkar e Phosphine appearing on the spot. The downside of wearing everything is getting cooked in the suit.

[niran]

In the sequence of pictures(which started this )
It appears IA men are removing clothes of victims
and covering the victims with woolen Kambal before carrying them
to where ever they are supposed to carry them.

This means that clothes were contaminated, hence removed.
Now this still, do not explain " Bare hand" approach by IA men.
considering the fact that however young and absolutely intact
your skin is, chemicals, (biologic warfare kind or otherwise)
& germs do get absorbed into the body. I think each of us
have herd the word "Osmosis". yes, thats the route by which
chemical agents can enters our body.
Therefore gloves are mandatory according to my rationale.

IMHO this is what happened,

Some Jarnail- Major, I hear you have biological warfare kit.
Major: yes! Sir!
Some Jarnail: Tomorrow my in-laws are coming over, put up
a show for me, would you?
Major: Yes! Sir!

and this half baked exercise took place.

[Brando]

For many years they have shown these NBC guys during Republic day and each time I've wondered what in the world these people are. They are using 60's equipment and gear.

Are they meant as a Decontamination team ? Or are they meant to fight in an NBC environment. Because they look like they can do neither very well.

Decon is a major field of expertise where the people involved are highly trained and have massive equipment. These guys have neither. Also unlike China which has regiments that can fight in an NBC environment, I wonder how many divisions of the IA can fight for a prolonged period in an NBC environment ?

In the end if this is all a gimmick to please the masses. Then they are just setting the Indian people and themselves up for disappointment.

[sum]

sometimes I wonder whether netas in the army are publishing these
pictures to drive mass confusion among BRFites...may be it is their
way of psychological warfare against brfites for criticizing their
decisions on arjun....

They seem to be succeding...

[Sanjay]

The IA infantry units and elements of the IAF are fully equipped.

More than 400,000 NBC suits and respirators are on hand for operational units. I had done an article on the subject a few years ago.

There is no "fooling" the Indian public and way too much is being read into the ommission of gloves.

Note two items missing from this "exercise" - decontamination tents and water. The tent in the background is still on the ground. It has even been half-way erected.

I suspect - though I am not sure - these photographs were taken pre-exercise.

Look at the newsletters at the NDMA website -www.ndma.gov.in (click on NDRF and go to newsletters) and you'll see what Indian decon exercises look like and the army page has a few such photos as well.

[enqyoob]

IB4TL? Anyone want this thread around? Anyone willing to write up the info here for BRM/SRR? The Mahdi-e-Thread-Deleti is here.

An article on NBC suits with your name on it! Imagine the GLORY! The FAME!

[Dmurphy]

IB4TL then

[Rahul M]

mil-tech archive.

[ChandraS]

IB4TL? Anyone want this thread around? Anyone willing to write up the info here for BRM/SRR? The Mahdi-e-Thread-Deleti is here.

An article on NBC suits with your name on it! Imagine the GLORY! The FAME!

Any particular deadline associated with it? I will have some free time coming up end of November. Let me know.

[Rony]

India destroys its chemical weapons stockpile

With this India has become third country after South Korea and Albania to do so.

Only 3 countries and NO big powers ?


why so much hurry ? The Chinese and the Pakis never destroyed theirs.
The chinese did not even reveal the full scale of their CWs

Even though China has ratified the CWC, made its declaration, and subjected its declared chemical weapons facilities to inspections, we believe that Beijing has not acknowledged the full extent of its chemical weapons program."

The Americans will have CWs well into 2020s

According to the certification document, complete destruction of the stored weapons is estimated to cost $7.9 billion. At the Pentagon's planned spending rate, weapons disposal would be completed at Pueblo by 2020 and at Blue Grass by 2023.

[abhiti]

With this India has become third country after South Korea and Albania to do so. why so much hurry ? The Chinese and the Pakis never destroyed theirs.

You don't understand...mankind has a grave threat primarily from all Indian weapons i.e. chemical, nuclear, even conventional. Heck even Indian soldiers with sticks are a threat. China and Pakistan needs protection from evil Yindoo! Kudos to MMS and Sonia. I fully support him.

[Gaurav_S]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy3YqBi9QrA

Chemical weapons IBN news.

P.S. Sorry to be a picker but did anyone notice Army personnel napping at 10sec. Or something wrong with me?

[Gaur]

Yeah, he is napping.

[sum]

Even though China has ratified the CWC, made its declaration, and subjected its declared chemical weapons facilities to inspections, we believe that Beijing has not acknowledged the full extent of its chemical weapons program."

Never know..
Even India might have under-reported its stock and kept some back as a buffer..

[Surya]

1. you need to have some amount for training , research etc.
2. probably should not be a big deal to produce it if needed -

[k prasad]

1. you need to have some amount for training , research etc.
2. probably should not be a big deal to produce it if needed -

Yes... I believe that limit is 10 kg (IIRC) per year, for the most lethal chems... anything over 100 gms of that needs to be declared to OPCW.

Anyway, we should take the above story and shove that up Vishal Thapars Musharraf... I have half a mind to do so, especially after the stinker that I sent him after his chem weapons story last year. At that time, I'd put up a rebuttal on BRF, and some jingo was nice enough to put it on the cnn-ibn site.

P.S... check the OPCW website for the info on how much we can stockpile for study.

[K Mehta]

That Vishal Thapar piece on Chemical weapons seems to be a classical Lifafa job to me. One wonders that with our defence correspondents like these, who needs enemies?

[k prasad]

That Vishal Thapar piece on Chemical weapons seems to be a classical Lifafa job to me. One wonders that with our defence correspondents like these, who needs enemies?

the somewhat good thing is that after that F***up and the corresponding blowback, Vishal has been mostly absent from the Defence reporting. I guess even by Rajdeep's flexible standards, that was too much lifafagira.