War inside Tibet - goals, strategies and equipment

[Singha]

airborne IR cameras on recce planes can provide
B&W photos of the tarmac with the hot areas under
departed or parked planes with hot engines clearly visible.
it can pickup if a.c have left the place or how many have
recently returned. the cool areas under unfit planes
is visible as black.

not sure if satellite cams can do it.

[ramana]

to help reduce tensions.?

By passing on the info to the neighbors and ahve the Embassy folks talk to the GOI.

GD I recall reading the news paper report. I dont have a copy of it. He knows what he is talking about.

[Venkarl]

Yeah protection from shrapnel is fine, but beyond that, all the planes should be in the air, greeting the panda, instead of dozing in superhard hangars. As war progresses, adversary will evolve its penetrator tech and we will realize that we should have gone for super-dooper hardened hanger instead of just super-hardened, when our pilots find a bum in their soup bowls inside these hangars. ).

most sensible post in a long time. you can have all underground hangars and holes in caves, but unless you are operating harriers in vtol mode, they are worth zilch if there are two to three craters in your runway.

But i guess our friend venkari is suggesting a complete airfield carved out in amountain, with underground runway and all

HariC...its Venkarl....l as in lion...not I or i

..well coming back to the point....
1)can you explain me why Chinese have gone for an underground submarine base at Hainan??
2)did they not think of enemy's cruise missiles hitting the mouth of the underground base which may not only block the entrance but damage/lock the submarine fleet/crew and any other support facilities?? are they that fools??
3) By your logic underground nuclear missile launch facilities can also be cremated permanently?? I think India too has such facilities.
4)why do you think Yugoslavs have invested $6 billion in building Zeljava base?? and if you did read my original post...Zeljava can withstand 20Kt of nuclear attack...and this was 30 yrs ago....didn't we advance in technology since then?
they had 2 underground bases one Zeljava
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDeljava_Air_Base
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ6Tb7udryo
and the other called called Slatina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzFrAB8Grew

I never suggested such an air base in NE, we could have one in West Bengal, Bihar or Jharkhand region?? I don't think any chinese fighter can fly till Jharkand or West Bengal with all that Spyder systems??

Other nations have already demonstrated that, I was suggesting same for India....anyways we are not the ones to decide that....Peace

[HariC]

3) By your logic underground nuclear missile launch facilities can also be cremated permanently??.

missiles dont need a 10000 foot long runway - do they? nor do subs

I think India too has such facilities.

ooh really? care to point out where?

4)why do you think Yugoslavs have invested $6 billion in building Zeljava base?? and if you did read my original post...Zeljava can withstand 20Kt of nuclear attack...and this was 30 yrs ago....didn't we advance in technology since then?

what exactly are you trying to protect with your ideas? a hardened aircraft shelter does the same job as a mountain. yes, mountains are probably impregnable to bombs - but whats the point if your aircraft cant take off once your runways are knocked out.

[Venkarl]

3) By your logic underground nuclear missile launch facilities can also be cremated permanently??.

missiles dont need a 10000 foot long runway - do they? nor do subs

What is your point? my point is....they can still be buried according to your logic..be it subs or missiles

I think India too has such facilities.

ooh really? care to point out where?

Are you hinting that India doesn't has underground missile silos?? do we have all our Prithvis and Agni 1s & 2s on train bogeys and trucks?? news to me..
Will our Agni 3s also be on train bogeys and trucks?? I guess not...they will definitely be in underground missile silos with high protection....please correct me if I am wrong here

4)why do you think Yugoslavs have invested $6 billion in building Zeljava base?? and if you did read my original post...Zeljava can withstand 20Kt of nuclear attack...and this was 30 yrs ago....didn't we advance in technology since then?

what exactly are you trying to protect with your ideas? a hardened aircraft shelter does the same job as a mountain. yes, mountains are probably impregnable to bombs - but whats the point if your aircraft cant take off once your runways are knocked out.

There you go..same can be applied to a normal air force base with hardened Hangars too....the runways can be bombed..along with the grounded air crafts...

I agree that in an open air AFB, operational readiness of fighters are always high when compared to an underground AFB..That is why I was suggesting half squadron on surface too....However, such strategic underground bases are heavily guarded by anti aircraft missiles and anti missile systems....so no enemy jets can come close to Bihar/Jharkhand/WB air space....

In your convenience, please address points no2 and no3....that will help me better understand your views

cheers

[Anshul]

How about the flooding in Bihar?

We do have hardened shelters (blast pens) at most of the forward bases.Everything can be knocked out.That does not mean that we don't need them.The army and the airforce must have taken the cruise missile angle into consideration.There is a large chance of air assets being rendered useless in a precision attack.But then wouldn't the enemy also resort to runway denial and strafing?

Don't you remember pearl harbour?The whole pacific fleet met its grave in shallow and seemingly safe waters.

If the enemy is smart enough to knock out multiple air bases or naval bases....then you need a backup plan.Nuclear Subs or SLCMs...???

[Lalmohan]

Anshul - Pearl Harbour is an interesting comparison. the problem was one of surprise - both strategic and tactical. everyone knew something was brewing, but the USN did not know that the Japanese fleet had sailed, and no one expected such a major attack to be actually carried out. even then, the USN had taken its carriers out on exercise... perhaps as inspired guesswork.

IAF will need to be vigilent and prepared for all eventualities - not get caught like the Egyptians in 67. Personally, i like the IAF method of wide dispersion combined with hardened shelters, gives you more options

[Anshul]

I agree...Pearl Harbour is distant..but yes it did puncture the inflated egos of the USN.They took some time to get back.
We all want to believe that our forces are invincible.We will pull out an ace...Kargil proved that the IA and the IAF were poorly prepared for the eventuality.The Israelis had to do tell us what to do.The rumored sorties by IAI operatives in M2000s and then the sudden need for PGMs at Muntho Dhalo.

We have this inherent passive indian trait about us which we compensate with spurts of bravery.China has studied us down to our individual shit patterns.I wonder if IA will be able to hold Arunachal in face of a chinese attack.And believe me...when they hit us they are going to ensure that its a six...!

[Rahul M]

The Israelis had to do tell us what to do.

and the israelis have this huge repertoire of mountain warfare knowledge from their experiences in which mountain range exactly ?

[Anshul]

The Israelis had to do tell us what to do.

and the israelis have this huge repertoire of mountain warfare knowledge from their experiences in which mountain range exactly ?

Rahul....I meant the huge repertoire of PGM delivery and deployment knowledge.And the huge repertoire of hitting hezbollah leaders at the very time they were planning to deploy their WMDs at their harems...

[Rahul M]

so how were the IA poorly prepared for this eventuality ?

[Anshul]

so how were the IA poorly prepared for this eventuality ?

1.No Bunker Busters
2.No NVGs
3.No WLRs
4.Intelligence failure
5.Bad Co-ordination
6.Over reliance on numbers.
7.Failure to stem pakistani shelling.
.....
.......
.........

[Surya]

IAI operatives in M2K on bombing missions

It is such drivel that derails any meaningful discussions.

[Vivek K]

The Israelis had to do tell us what to do.The rumored sorties by IAI operatives in M2000s and then the sudden need for PGMs at Muntho Dhalo.

And why did the Israelis have so much difficulty in taking out the Hezbollah then?

We have this inherent passive indian trait about us which we compensate with spurts of bravery.China has studied us down to our individual shit patterns.I wonder if IA will be able to hold Arunachal in face of a chinese attack.And believe me...when they hit us they are going to ensure that its a six...!

I think you are displaying a trait that is very un-Indian!! Your post is an insult to the sacrifices of Indians in protecting the country. Please give up your Indian citizenship and become Chinese to take advantage of our "shit pattern".

[Rahul M]

1.No Bunker Busters

I guess you mean air dropped munitions. in that case please mention an army that has bunker busters.

2.No NVGs
3.No WLRs

not for want of efforts. if GoI doesn't concur, little that IA can do.

4.Intelligence failure

primarily that of the civilian intel agencies.

5.Bad Co-ordination

with whom or what ?

6.Over reliance on numbers.

relative to whom ? what was the alternative ?

7.Failure to stem pakistani shelling.

again, this is like saying "failed to inculcate brotherly attitude in TSPA", given #3.

I would appreciate it very much if you could just give what you think the IA should have done and didn't. please do so in the army discussion thread or the kargil thread.

[Paul]

the USN did not know that the Japanese fleet had sailed

The powers that be knew exactly what was going on...It was the unfortunate Adm. Kimmel who had to pay the price. But this is a subject for another thread

[Lalmohan]

the USN did not know that the Japanese fleet had sailed

The powers that be knew exactly what was going on...It was the unfortunate Adm. Kimmel who had to pay the price. But this is a subject for another thread

indeed! so, lets not go there...

[hnair]

Paul, not loose (existing) boulders but new boulders caused by a penetrator exploding deep inside a monolith. Even with multiple access points, an SSBN pen or aircraft storage inside a mountain need not give heavy returns. IMO, if anything, NATO invests heavily in early warning and sensors because of their lack of belief in fortifications since the Maginot line fiasco.

We need a massive increase in funding of sensors and networking. Let Panda have all the '60s era Bond villain lairs. They need that to appear competent to their people in a cinematic way.

Are you hinting that India doesn't has underground missile silos?? do we have all our Prithvis and Agni 1s & 2s on train bogeys and trucks?? news to me..
Will our Agni 3s also be on train bogeys and trucks?? I guess not...they will definitely be in underground missile silos with high protection....please correct me if I am wrong here

Going OT with you, but:
1) Stop using the word silos in Indian SS/BM missile context. Missile silos are fixed places where missiles are stored and also kept ready to launch. At this moment, India do not have them. It has always been mobile platforms. Same reason why Soviets/Russians and Americans(for their MX program) had mobile platforms: much easier to disperse and difficult to target even with increasingly accurate weapons. The most charitable explanation for your usage is that you mistook silos for underground missile storage facilities. Now THAT, India, like every other country with a decent military might have. But not ready to launch facilities that are silos.

2) Agni3 has always been shown as carriage mounted. Atleast till now.

We have this inherent passive indian trait about us which we compensate with spurts of bravery.China has studied us down to our individual shit patterns.I wonder if IA will be able to hold Arunachal in face of a chinese attack.And believe me...when they hit us they are going to ensure that its a six...!

Once again, where should I sent my stool samples? Jeez! sounds remarkably like someone hailing from Bangalore, Kerala.

[Venkarl]

Are you hinting that India doesn't has underground missile silos?? do we have all our Prithvis and Agni 1s & 2s on train bogeys and trucks?? news to me..
Will our Agni 3s also be on train bogeys and trucks?? I guess not...they will definitely be in underground missile silos with high protection....please correct me if I am wrong here

Going OT with you, but:
1) Stop using the word silos in Indian SS/BM missile context. Missile silos are fixed places where missiles are stored and also kept ready to launch. At this moment, India do not have them. It has always been mobile platforms{Source please??}. Same reason why Soviets/Russians and Americans(for their MX program) had mobile platforms: much easier to disperse and difficult to target even with increasingly accurate weapons. The most charitable explanation for your usage is that you mistook silos for underground missile storage facilities{yes, I did }. Now THAT, India, like every other country with a decent military might have. But not ready to launch facilities that are silos.

2) Agni3 has always been shown as carriage mounted. Atleast till now.

hnair...thank you for educating me in this aspect..I was under the impression that India has underground missile silos like Soviets..like many other technologies..I thought India has adopted/Indianized this one too...
http://www.truthdig.com/images/diguploads/silo_804.jpg

I am sorry for derailing this thread....

[Rahul M]

targeting the doorways is undoubtedly the most effective way to take out typical under mountain fortified hangars.

however, there are some steps that can be taken to protect these :
a) have a number of doorways including some false ones. and hide a couple of them if possible.

b) the tunnels can be designed to divert some of the blast shockwaves away from the holding area.
the yugoslavs actually tried some of these and their stored a/c were by and large unmolested by the NATO air campaign.
this type of hangars do have some uses in the Indian context, the most important of them being the ability to hide a lot of your activity from the overhead prying eyes. the above measures can mitigate some of the inherent problems.

regarding missile silos, US/russia built those in the early days of the cold war when BMs were messy and gigantic liquid fuel driven monsters and nearly impossible to move around.
they compensated by creating huge silos with lots of blast protection measures. but very quickly it was realized that this method was not survivable against enemy counter force measures armed with nukes, especially when both explosive power of nukes and accuracy of missiles which carried them started jumping up.

[Singha]

Indian radar network could be given a tfta tinge by naming it Heimdall in honour of our norweigan EJ
buddies

Heimdall was the gatekeeper to Asgard the realm of the norse gods ( a sort of MKIed St.Peter or
was it St. Paul in christendom?). he guarded the bridge at the entrance and had the most
acute perception of all the gods. it was said sitting in NYC he could hear grass grow in brazil
or a mouse running along the great wall of china. his helmet had two long curved horns no doubt
hiding majorleague EW and ESM gear. his body armour had conformal radar arrays to pickup
even stealth a/c and his eyes were like gen-10 thermals. standoff weapon was a intelligent bow
to shoot arrows ranging from grenade to thermonuclear dial-a-yield.

read about him in a marvel comic recently. takes out a F117 like a fly when Asgard relocates
to hover above NYC with Thor taking over role of The Overlords in childhoods end terminology.

[Rahul M]

******Pre-emptive strike !!!! ******

OK, no further discussion on Heimdall or his sensory abilities !
please stick to the thread, or else .......

(always count on singha ji to succesfully derail... nay cause massive landslide under the rails !)

[Singha]

enemy interceptors appears strong today. *activates romulan device
to disappear into another thread*

[narayana]

so how were the IA poorly prepared for this eventuality ?

1.No Bunker Busters
.........

We Have Crystal Maze which we brought from israel

[Rahul M]

and the IA operates it ?

[Singha]

as you know even the 80mm mortar needs some serious musclepower and 120mm
needs beasts not men to fire for sustained spell.

do we have significant number of modified BMP chassis with 120mm and 80mm mortars
that be quickly deployed into the mountains with some mechanical contraption to
make the loading easier?

atleast the loading can be semi-automatic, and changing the barrel's direction
need not be that manual handle. rate of fire could be increased if it were a
bottom fed mortar with a proper hydraulic breech. the crew gain armour protection
during move and fire.

this is one area where I see no activity in yindia.

[abhischekcc]

Hey, singha is back on the thread after disappearing with his romulan device

Or is this singha jr?

[abhischekcc]

>>read about him in a marvel comic recently

OK, this is definitely singha jr.

[shetty]

Here's some food for thought for your dicussion

IAF buys new fix for bombed runways

The Israel Air Force has purchased a unique material that can be laid on bombed-out runways within minutes to enable fighter jets to take off with barely any delay, defense officials revealed Tuesday.

Until now, the IAF had been dependent on asphalt companies to repave damaged runways. The new solution can allow a base to resume operations within minutes.

The air force recently conducted a number of tests with the new material, including the takeoff of fully-loaded fighter jets.

A top IAF officer told The Jerusalem Post the decision to buy the material was made in line with the lessons learned from the Second Lebanon War, when more than 4,000 Hizbullah rockets pounded Israel.

The IAF was concerned that Syria and Hizbullah would target air bases in an effort to neutralize Israel's fighter-jet capability, the officer said.

"Our assumption is that we will be under a heavy barrage of missiles in a future conflict," the officer said. "This applies to all of the air force bases - in the South and the North."

For this reason, the IAF is also considering purchasing several Joint Strike Fighters, which have vertical-takeoff capability. The IDF has announced plans to purchase at least 25 F-35 jets with the option to purchase dozens more.

The decision to consider the vertical-takeoff airplane, the F-35B, was made due to an understanding that in time of war Israeli bases and runways would be heavily targeted by enemy missiles.

Also Tuesday, the Israel Air Force's official magazine reported on a new avionics system installed in F-15I fighter jets that enables pilots to drop several smart bombs simultaneously. Smart bombs, or precision-guided munitions, are guided weapons intended to maximize damage to the target while minimizing civilian damage.

The F-15I is Israel's most advanced bomber and has a range of over 4,000 kilometers with the ability to reach speeds of up to Mach 2.5. The plane can carry an assortment of missiles.

[hnair]

At this moment, India do not have them. It has always been mobile platforms{Source please??}

Source? May I suggest BR's exhaustive missile pages?

Rahul M, the Serb nation's requirement was the same as the Iraqis in GWI: preserving their airforce from an airwar they know they cant win. But ours will be much different. At this point, panda cant win easily in the air against us. Thus we need to be more in the air than anywhere else. The more shelters we have, the more defensive we get. And one day the adversary finds out a way to punch in through the shelters. IMO etc

That said, I agree that we need to build giant sprawling hangars (not necessarily hardened) for parking ALL our aircrafts. For the stealth reason you mentioned. The enemy should not know how many aircrafts are ready for sorties or even where to aim their precision weapons (especially for pre-emptive strikes at parked crafts), given the expanse of the acres big hangar roofs. Also if we have big roofed hangars and a part of the roof gets damaged in an attack (or even if the layout got compromised by espionage), we can quickly reconfigure the hangar's internal layout quite fast by shifting around blast walls made of say, sacks of sand, using forklifts Ideally, the crafts should be towed out of the hangar doors and be airborne in minutes, thus giving minimal time for any forward observers or satellites to warn the adversary. Same for damaged or hit crafts limping back.

If nothing else, parking it out in the punishing Indian sun(even with those rags over OLS and cockpits) has to be stopped for longevity reasons.

Singha, the mortar carriers seem to be getting a lot of attention with the chinese.

[Paul]

This thread is getting some attention.

The Chinese War-Gaming in Tibet
July 2, 2008 12:03 am admin2008 Geopolitics, India, Indian Military, National Security, PRC, The Indian Subcontinent, Tibet
The good folks at Bharat-Rakshak are war gaming a war scenario with China on the Tibetan plateau. While a similar exercise is being done by some on the Chinese side too.

Andrei Chang writing in his column Military might on UPIAsiaOnline has this to say about a possible Indo-China conflict after the Beijing Olympics.

Should China-India relations deteriorate to the verge of military confrontation and the riots in Tibet spread extensively, the first combat units of the PLA to be called to action would be the No. 52 and No. 53 Mountain Brigades under the Tibet Military Region.

The No. 52 Brigade, stationed at Linzhi, is highly mechanized and armed with T-92 wheeled armored vehicles and HJ-8/9 anti-tank missiles. National highway 318 directly connects Linzhi and Lhasa; thus it is logical to conclude that the T-92 wheeled armored vehicles on the streets of Lhasa were from this brigade. The No. 52 Mountain Brigade is stationed at Milin and is also the PLA combat unit stationed closest to the city of Lhasa.

National highway 318 is in fact the southern route of the Sichuan-Tibet highway. In the event of war or future large-scale riots in Tibet, the highway will be the key passageway for combat troops from the Chengdu Military Region to enter Tibet.

However, this key highway runs across the Minjiang River and the Daduhe River in a region with an average altitude of 4,250 meters (around 14,000 feet) above sea level, and thus is very susceptible to attack by the Indian Air Force or assault by organized rioters. Most of the highways within the Tibet region will be within striking range of the Su-30MKI fighters soon to be deployed in the No. 30 Squadron of the Indian Air Force at Tezpur.


If the T-90/89 armored personnel carriers used in Lhasa were indeed from the 149th Mechanized Rapid Reaction Division of the Chengdu Military Region, they were most likely transported first from Chongqing to Xining, then to Golmud to connect to the Qinghai-Tibet railway and continue on to Lhasa. The whole journey would take about 48 hours.

Such troop movements would be much faster and cheaper than before. Calculated on the basis of being able to transport most of the heavy equipment of a whole mechanized division within 48 hours – it is unlikely that all the division’s equipment would be moved – the PLA would be able to transport approximately 10 light mechanized divisions and some heavy mechanized divisions through the railroad to Tibet from the Lanzhou and Chengdu Military Regions within 30 days.

Of course, should there be a military conflict between China and India, the Qinghai-Tibet railway would be a prime target for air strikes by the Su-30MKI fighters of the Indian Air Force’s No. 30 Fighter Squadron, the MiG-27 fighters of the No. 22 Squadron at Hashimara and the “Jaguar” attackers of the No. 5 Squadron at Ambala.

The only obstacle to this mass movement of regular armed troops and equipment would be the capacity of Qinghai-Tibet railway and the number of available trains. China once claimed that the annual transport capacity of the railway was 5 million tons, an average of 13,888 tons per day.

The average load capacity of one Chinese train car is normally 60 tons, with about 20 cars in each cargo train. This would mean that each train could transport 1,200 tons, and thus 11 trains traveling both ways would be enough for each day. In time of war, the actual number of trains running on the railroad could double to roughly 20 trains both ways each day.

Suppose the total weight of the equipment and combat material needed for one rapid reaction division of the Chinese army was around 15,000 tons, the Qinghai-Tibet railway could transport a whole rapid reaction division on one average day. In other words, within every one-and-a-half to two days, China could move one rapid reaction division from the Chengdu Military Region or one rapid reaction division from the Lanzhou Military Region to Tibet.

China’s air transport capability also needs to be taken into consideration. Additional airborne troops, rapid reaction troops and armed police could be directly delivered to Lhasa from the air. Since airdrop operations would take place in the Tibet region, there would be no need for ground-based air defense firepower. Thus, the No. 15 Airborne Division could be airdropped to Tibet, and equipment such as airborne fighting vehicles could be put to use.

In recent years, China has made great effort to revamp the Qinghai-Tibet highway and the Sichuan-Tibet highway. National highways 214, 317 and 109 – the shortest routes into Tibet by land – are now all asphalted. If China were to have a military confrontation with India, highway transport could be more reliable should the Qinghai-Tibet railway be damaged.

The railway would allow the 61st Plateau Rapid Reaction Motorized Division of No. 21 Group Army under the Lanzhou Military Region and the 149th Rapid Reaction Motorized Division of the Chengdu Military Region to quickly enter Tibet.[link]

Notice the number of times that the Chinese writer emphases the critical role to be played by Air-Power. If the Indian Air Force comes to the party in a big way the Chinese will lose the ability to launch and sustain an offensive deep into Indian territory or find themselves unable to hold onto any marginal territorial gains made at the borders. Hopefully Indian military planners will take notice of it and not repeat the mistake of 1962 when they foolishly held back the IAF from involving itself in combat. This time the IAF should be handed over a carte blanche on the Tibetan plateau to wreck the Chinese military logistics and supplies there.that article by Andrei chang was a warning to PRC on IAF preparedness

Because of the presence of U.S. military troops in Afghanistan and the escalating independence activities in the southern part of Xinjiang – northwest China’s primarily Muslim Uyghur ethnic region – the Xinjiang Military Region and the Lanzhou Military Region are now the key forces to guard against internal riots in that part of the country. This is why the forces of the Chengdu Military Region were the first to be deployed in Tibet.thisis why I said NE will be targetted from Yunnan as well, not just Tibet

In addition, the riots in Tibet quickly spread to Gansu province, which borders Xinjiang; therefore the Xinjiang and Lanzhou Military Regions may face the new mission of cracking down on Tibetan independence movements as well as Muslim riots and the traditional Uyghur independence activities.

Once the Uyghur separatist movement in Xinjiang and the independence activities in Gansu and Tibet intensify, the 61st Rapid Reaction Division stationed at Tianshui in Gansu province will be the first one to be called upon in the crackdown. In addition, the No. 12 Armored Division stationed at Zhangye in Gansu province may also be mobilized.

The 4th Motorized Infantry Division of Xinjiang Military Region was the first local combat unit to receive new equipment in the region, including the T-92 100-mm wheeled assault cannons. Obviously, this division is now transforming into a rapid reaction unit and will probably be used to deal with any riots in southern Xinjiang. Besides, this division is also quite close to the Afghanistan border.

The 6th Motorized Infantry Division stationed at Kashi is the only mechanized combat unit in the Xinjiang Military Region. It is also close to Afghanistan and is located right in the heart of southern Xinjiang. Should Uyghur independence activities break out of control, the above two divisions would be the first to be dispatched.

As for the Urumqi, the capital of Xinjiang, it is covered by the 11th Brigade. As is widely known, the 63rd Division of the original No. 21 Group Army and the 7th Division of the Xinjiang Military Region have been restructured into the Armed Police No. 63 and No. 7 Divisions, and are stationed at the cities of Pingliang and Ili, respectively.

The Chinese are also concerned about having to fight the Indian war while having to look behind their backs at the same time. If the Indian side manages to put an impressive aerial show on display in the Tibetan plateau. It could inspire the Tibetans and Uighurs to take up arms or riot against the Chinese yoke and even indulge in sustained guerilla activities. This could tie up substantial Chinese forces and energy in trying to control the rebellion and help the Indian war effort in a crucial manner if planned properly.

[Rahul M]

the Serb nation's requirement was the same as the Iraqis in GWI: preserving their airforce from an airwar they know they cant win.

umm, have to disagree about the yugoslavs. that was certainly the situation when the americans came to the party but when these facilities were created, the target was different.
the yugoslavs would have fought as part of the warsaw pact and were probably more likely to end up on th winning side than say, norway(or any other NATO country on the border) !

IIRC, the iraqi UG facilities were created after the GW1 with help from the yugoslavs ! if I'm correct, that lends credence to your POV about the iraqis.

[Singha]

imo we should speed up su30mki induction by buying additional units from HAL - increase its production
rate. nothing else seems to be in the pipeline for next 3-4 yrs.

[Rahul M]

Paul, interesting, do you have a source for that ??
added later: OK, found it.
___________________________________________
regarding the SP mortars, even more than BMP mortar carriers, we need to have mortars mounted on smaller craft, like 4X4 vehicles for use against the chinese. the terrain in those sectors won't allow heavier vehicles in most cases.

[Singha]

indeed , the british , master mariners that they are, used to build merchant ships with some extra
support beams and strong points on deck to mount guns during wartime. not the automated turrets
but some manually operated types.

with a suitable specs supplied from the army, the pvt makers themselves can implement a strong
trunk bed on 4x4 and provide a base plate for mortar work. ideally all 4x4 supplied to army should
have it pre-installed, so that any vehicle can quickly be coverted to mortar work by removing
the rear seating and MG mount.

these are areas where army design bureau can make progress quickly and get stuff in hand
on a guaranteed basis. they are wasting their time investigating the 50t solar powered
flying tank that Ru has promised.

[Rahul M]

if anyone is curious how tanks created by army research look like, watch sgt. bilko !!

[Singha]

Alistair's macleans novels are great in learning about ships, and running repairs on damaged ships
he had a genius for that line of craft. being scottish he usually had a gruff and capable scottish bosun in
each of his navals...and a couple of wet behind the years 3rd or 4th officer to add youth and inexperience
into the equation.

HMS Ulysses and South by Java Head have a good nautical content. growing up with such
books is what brought me eventually to BR...

[putnanja]

Alistair's macleans novels are great in learning about ships, and running repairs on damaged ships
he had a genius for that line of craft. being scottish he usually had a gruff and capable scottish bosun in
each of his navals...and a couple of wet behind the years 3rd or 4th officer to add youth and inexperience
into the equation.

HMS Ulysses and South by Java Head have a good nautical content. growing up with such
books is what brought me eventually to BR...

Santorini and The golden rendevouz are pretty good naval books too. In fact, I have the full collection of McLean

[rajrang]

Hopefully Indian military planners will take notice of it and not repeat the mistake of 1962 when they foolishly held back the IAF from involving itself in combat

Lots of questions:

Yep..this is precisely the point. It doesn't matter how big your equipment is...how you use it is what matters...this is precisely where politicians come into picture. They can setup barriers for failure and ask the forces to fight with artificial constraints. with beijing cajoling the supreme commander of kangress, they pretty much figured out that only way to win is by politics.

This brings another question: what role does the government play during war and what power does it have over the armed forces as far as strategies and execution is concerned?

I hear so often that had India introduced its airforce into the 1962 war, the outcome would have been more favorable to India. Are we really sure? Maybe somebody needs to do a thorough thesis/study of this claim?

In Korea the might of the U.S. air force could not defeat the chinese. Even 7 aircraft carriers attacking Vietnam simultaneously for weeks (at one point) could not eventually defeat them.

Is it possible that if India had used its (much smaller - my guess is 300 or less fighting aircraft, technologically weaker) airforce in AP, then while this would have had "some" effect on the invading chinese, it may not have been significant? After all the IA in AP had been more or less destroyed relatively quickly and there were no more (acclimatized, trained) soldiers to replace them - to re-capture territory by pushing the chinese back from Bomdila to the Thag La ridge (with the help of the air force). The majority of India's (my guess is approx 300,000 or so) army being meant for fighting in the plains with Pak.

Maybe, India's use of its airforce could have angered the chinese and they might have decided not to withdraw from AP. Had the chinese not withdrawn from AP, there was nothing that India (or the US) could have done about it.

Is it possible that PM Nehru took this into account and decided to "take a beating from the bully and avoid angering the bully further"? Sometimes that can be a tactic when dealing with a much stronger bully - let him finish hitting and he may be "satisfied" and go away. Sort of like - should a rape victim comply with a (cowardly) perpetrator with the hope that her life will be spared? Though these are rational thoughts - in a moment of great emotion, responses may be different - non rational.

I suppose India should face these questions squarely - because honest answers to these questions may suggest that India needs to re-arm itself immediately and raise far greater numbers of (offensive) ground divisions.

I also do not mean to underestimate the value of a strong airforce. Today, India's air superiority in the mountains will definitely cause the Chinese tremendous worry. After all they panick at the sight of a few poorly armed separatists and their response is to send entire divisions to deal with them - signs of insecurity. But can India's airforce push back Chinese forces once they have occupied Indian territory? You will need a ground forces for that.

My apologies - I realize it is easier to ask questions than to figure out answers for them.

[Singha]

we need something like this to control the S300-S400 threat

JASSM ER Flies to Survive

May 30, 2006: The U.S. Air Force successfully tested the long range (900 kilometers) version of its JASSM cruise missile, called JASSM ER. The test missile flew over 500 kilometers, then hit the intended target (several shipping containers). JASSM is the third family of GPS guided smart bombs to be developed. The original JDAM bomb kit (added to 500, 1,000 and 2,000 pound bombs), cost $26,000 each. The longer range JSOW (JDAM with wings and more powerful guidance system), cost $460,000 each. The even longer range JASSM cost $500,000 (the 400 kilometers version) to $930,000 (JASSM ER) each. Then there is the SDB (Small Diameter Bomb), a 250 pound JDAM that can also punch through concrete bunkers and other structures. These cost $75,000 each.



The AGM-158 JASSM missiles are 2,300 pound weapons that are basically 1,000 pound JDAMS (GPS guided bombs) with a motor added. JASSM was designed to go after enemy air defense systems, or targets deep in heavily defended (against air attack) enemy territory. The air force and navy planed to buy over 5,000 JASSM, but there has been some opposition in the military and in Congress. The missiles are ten times as expensive than a JADM bomb of the same weight. But the aviators make the argument that many aircraft and pilots would be lost if the air defenses of a nation like, perhaps China, were attacked without using JASSM.



The U.S. Air Force ordered the AGM-158 JASSM into full production in early 2004. But only a few have been produced, because of test failures. Air force purchasing plans have been cut way back because of reliability problems, and this has delayed shipment of the missiles to combat units until 2008.



JASSM is stealthy and uses GPS and terminal (infrared) guidance to zero in on heavily defended targets (like air defense sites.) The terminal guidance enables the missile to land within ten feet of the aiming point. If there were a war with North Korea, for example, JASSM would be essential to taking out enemy air defenses, or any other targets that have to be hit early in a war (before air defenses can be shut down.) JASSM was designed to handle the most modern Russian surface to air missiles, which are being sold to China. North Korea has older stuff, and can't afford the newer Russian SAMs. But even these older air defenses can be dangerous, and are best addressed with long range missiles.



Reliability and cost problems caused Congress to cut back on money for JASSM. There's also been no opportunity to use JASSM in the war on terror. So, at the moment, it looks like fewer than a thousand will be bought.