War inside Tibet - goals, strategies and equipment

[Samudragupta]

I odnt like the word Cold Start. How about Running Start with forces in being?

Ok lets understand that cold start is in cold storage....

[rohitvats]

I odnt like the word Cold Start. How about Running Start with forces in being?

Ok lets understand that cold start is in cold storage....

And how do you know that? But even before you answer this one, do let me know what you understand about CSD?

[darshhan]

A small question to the Gurus, on the backdrop of the raising of the new strike corps...is there any chance that cold start will be implemented in the Chinese sector also?

Only if we have enough helicopters.The no. required would be most probably in high hundreds if not thousands.

The important aspect of cold start doctrine is rapid thrusts in enemy territory.Now in deserts and Plains mechanized forces can carry them out.But most of the Indo China border is unsuitable for mechanized warfare(except for some portions in ladakh and Sikkim).So the only way you can capture enemy territory on Indo China border rapidly would be through vertical envelopment.For which you would require helicopters.Now just imagine the no. of helicopters that you would require.

[Samudragupta]

I don't mean that the strategy itself is in storage but only the name, I understand the continuous effort on the part of Indian forces to reduce the time to mobilize to 48 hours and to use this reduced time to make a rapid thrust into the West to advantageous positions and to destroy enemy in a battle of attrition....
Now i can probably understand that this is possible in the plains and deserts but just trying to find out whether it is possible across the Himalays?

[Shrinivasan]

Darshan, why do we need helos in thousands? Missile and arty barrages can soften defended and our troops can move thru passes, actually mountains are trecherous for helos. A bigger need is for tube arty, Prahaar and brahmas in large numbers, longer range and accurate MBRLs.

[darshhan]

Darshan, why do we need helos in thousands? Missile and arty barrages can soften defended and our troops can move thru passes, actually mountains are trecherous for helos. A bigger need is for tube arty, Prahaar and brahmas in large numbers, longer range and accurate MBRLs.

Sure they can move through passes.But my response was in response to Samudragupta ji's question that can we apply cold start doctrine on Indo china border.One of the important points of cold start doctrine is to move rapidly through the enemy's territory so that he is thrown off balance.And in mountains only way one can move rapidly is through air assets which means helos(Passes are few in no. and they will be fortified by the enemy.Also travelling through mountain roads take a lot of time compared to plains and are much susceptible to enemy attack).Now I do not know the exact no. of helos required.The no.s will be high though.Again the numbers depend upon what the Indian Army's objectives are.As far as helos being treacherous ,I do agree with you.Infact at high altitude thin air it becomes even more dangerous to travel by helicopters.But then again war itself is treacherous.

I completely agree with you that we require artillery and cruise missiles.They are required anyway , cold start doctrine or not.

[Samudragupta]

The shoot and scoot using a combination of hellos and ultra light howitzers seems to be ok, but what about armoured formation...is it not the basic requirement for a thrust into Tibet? Or is we are looking to an expedition without the Armoured formation...i understand that armoured formations in the battle in the North is only possible in the North of Ladakh, but how could an expeditionary force plans out against armoured challenge from the PLA with their Type 99 zooming right out to the LAC?

[sivab]

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=76204

Pallam Raju Launches DRDO Developed Performance Enhancing Drug for High-Altitude Areas

The Minister of State for Defence Dr M M Pallam Raju launched a composite herbal formulation named ‘Perfomax’ that has been developed by DRDO and has been found to improve physical and mental performance in High Altitude and Hypoxic Conditions at a function held in Leh, Ladakh today. The formulation is rich in antioxidants and other bioactive compounds that improve performance of brain, heart, kidney and lungs and improves blood circulation.

He also inaugurated a Conference on “Emerging Trends in Food and Health Security in Cold Deserts”, orgainsed by the Leh-based Defence Institute of High Altitude Research (DIHAR), a frontier laboratory of DRDO. Speaking on the occasion Dr. Pallam Raju called for rigorous extension activities in collaboration with the State Departments to ensure that the agro-animal technologies developed by the DRDO reach the farmers even in the remotest locations. He also lauded the DIHAR for promoting Solar Energy to provide energy security in the region.

In his address Dr William Selvamurthy, Chief Controller R&D (Life Sciences), DRDO stressed on the need for increasing the vegetable production in the cold deserts to an extent of creating a self-sustainable system with minimal dependency on the plains for fresh food and dairy products. Dr R B Srivastava, Director, DIHAR listed the initiatives taken by DIHAR to augment the agro-animal productivity in the trans-Himalayan region that has resulted in increased local production of fresh vegetables, meat, poultry and dairy products in the region. Shri Rigzin Spalbar, Chief Executive Councillor, Ladakh Autonomous Hill Development Council (LAHDC) lauded the scientists of DIHAR for their relentless efforts in educating the farmers on advanced agro-animal technologies that has resulted in increased production of vegetables in Ladakh.

Dr Pallam Raju later released a book entitled “Innovations in Agro-Animal Technologies” which is a compilation of the advanced agro-animal techniques pertaining to cold deserts. He also inaugurated a “Hall of Scientific Excellence” in DIHAR campus where all the technologies developed by DRDO will be showcased for the army and civilians.

[rohitvats]

^^^Now that is how you adapt for fighting in the high-altitude areas and not building hyperbaric chambers for comfort and ease of soldiers.

[Pratyush]

Quoting from the above report.......

The Minister of State for Defence Dr M M Pallam Raju launched a composite herbal formulation named ‘Perfomax’ that has been developed by DRDO and has been found to improve physical and mental performance in High Altitude and Hypoxic Conditions at a function held in Leh, Ladakh today. The formulation is rich in antioxidants and other bioactive compounds that improve performance of brain, heart, kidney and lungs and improves blood circulation.

Can it also be administered to our athletes to win gold medals in Olympics. Or its effects are limited to high altitude areas onlee ?

[biswas]

^ The rest of the world calls that cheating, Pratyush.

[Victor]

If fighting breaks out, taking it into Tibet will not depend on road infrastructure on our side which, at least in AP, is atrocious and likely to stay that way for years. Most of Tibet is a ready-made landing ground for the C-17 and C-130--flat and hard like Ladakh and Afghanistan. Moving men and materiel in will depend on sanitizing an air corridor for them to pass through quickly and in force.

[sivab]

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/china ... al/860799/

China flexing muscles, Govt clears Brahmos for Arunachal

Pressing ahead with the second phase of military expansion along the China front, the government has given the go-ahead to deployment of Brahmos cruise missiles in Arunachal Pradesh. This will be India’s first offensive tactical missile deployment against China, sources said.

The three Brahmos missile regiments raised so far have been deployed in the western sector to counter the Pakistan threat. This will be the fourth regiment.

With a range of 290 km, these cruise missiles are being deployed to improve India’s military reach into the Tibet Autonomous Region and counter China’s elaborate missile deployment along the Sino-Indian border.

This, sources said, dovetails with India’s second expansion plan but is being fast-tracked because of urgency shown by the armed forces.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has also cleared the five-year expansion plan for which he had given the green signal earlier. The plan involves fresh accretion of 89,000 troops, with 400 officers.

This is estimated to cost over Rs 65,000 crore, making it one of India’s biggest one-time military expansion effort. The proposal is now with the Finance Ministry, and will be put up before the Cabinet Committee on Security.
...

Two Army brigades are also being lined up for the Andamans while a battalion-strength presence is being considered for Lakshadweep alongside the Navy. Air Force assets are also being increased in these island territories, the sources said.

The second Army expansion on the China border will include setting up a corps headquarter in Panagarh, West Bengal, along with two more divisions. An independent armoured brigade along with an artillery division will be part of the set-up.

Lots of details being leaked in this article. 89,000 troops is ~4 divisions & 65k crores is more than what was quoted in other articles before. Seems like one division is going to Northern command and ~3 divisions to east. This is in addition to 2 divisions being raised in north east.

[Singha]

there is a 8000ft runway airport in panagarh with evidence of tarmac being much bigger earlier, no signs of great use now. its located on NH2 and Durgapur city is close by.

I am thinking with Kalaikunda slated to become the major fighter hub for east flank, Panagarh could be expanded to 15k ft and house the heavies like tankers , transports and AWACS for our eastern sector. the location is ideal, outside the usual radius of PLAAF offensive fighter sweeps unless they want to press ahead. such an advantage is not there for bagdogra, hashimara (both located near chicken neck) or any of the brahmaputra valley bases. it can also support ops over the bay of bengal and myanmar airspace.

couple sqdns of MRCA could be allocated there to smack down the chumbi valley.

with durgapur in vicinity I am sure rail links will be strong, could even be a hub for our strategic missile and tactical artillery divisions for that flank.

[Rahul M]

panagarh was a WW2 base and is on the radar for reopening. I think making it a hub for heavies is an excellent idea. not durgapur but nearby asansol is HQ of asansol div of IR and has major rail infrastructure under it including a large marshalling yard.

[Singha]

yes I recall reading panagarh expansion somewhere in the context of the new eastern front upgrades. the dense rail network of the WB-jharkhand coal-iron belt is a good place for A3 and A5 rail TELAR basing. loads of container and mineral trains to blend into. opportunities might exist to build caves into hillsides where railway spurs could hook into.

overall, much better logistically vs assam basing.

[Rudradev]

Came upon this fascinating thread pretty late in life. I should get out of Strategic Affairs forum more often.

Some pages (years?) ago Paul had introduced the idea that PLAAF airbases in Yunnan could menace Indian positions in NEFA without their aircraft being hamstrung by the altitude effects of taking off from Tibet. They would not need to overfly Myanmar to perform aerial interdiction or CAS for a PLA invasion of AP.

As a counter; I wonder if it would be possible to obtain IAF basing rights in northern Vietnam, and put a couple of MKI squadrons there.

Did some Google Earthing and found that most of VNPAF's bases are in Southern 'Nam, built by the Americans. Only a few old French bases in the North are being used by the VNPAF in any major way. Both of the biggest are near Ha Noi.

Gia Lam is still in use, the VNPAF bases Mig 21s and Ka28 choppers there.

There is also the retired Bach Mai base in suburban Ha Noi. I wonder if the Vietnamese would be amenable to something as provocative to Beijing as giving IAF basing rights so close to their own capital city. Bach Mai is about 360 km from Honghe (the largest Chinese city in southern Yunnan) and interestingly, only about 500 km from Hainan (where the PLAN has a major presence.)

Further north and west of Ha Noi there are no VNPAF bases that I could locate. The terrain (forested hills) doesn't seem particularly suited to constructing new ones. I am sure there are small airfields, helipads etc. but nothing easily accessible in the public domain.

[chackojoseph]

Overseas bases are a tough call. We will be expected to fight their wars or we should have the clout to prevent a war there. Yanks do this well. What we should be doing is to make or buy a bigger carrier, place it in international waters and get berthing facilities, supplies from Nam. If we have forward base in Nam, then we will be in the forefront of a local war. With Carriers, we can save on base cost and supplement Nam in case they need us and we can offload our carrier a/c's in their bases to operate incase we need an intervention. With smaller countries like Maldives etc, which we have vowed to protect, the base is easier.

[Rahul M]

it would have the same problems china would have if they try to militarise string of pearls, the force stationed would be below critical size and enemy would be able to deal with each peacemeal.
unless we decide to base at least a full wing along with its own radar, tanker etc assets, it won't be useful.

[Prasad]

If the PRC gets a base in FATA/WANA/POK maybe MoD might be pushed to giving it some thought. But it needs to go the whole hog to get a base in vietnam and not something for namesake.

[Singha]

I think a naval cum airbase in cam ranh bay area would be good. both to snoop around and to protect ONGC assets. the soviets union maintained a base called Conakry in west africa somewhere...their Bears and other long haulers used to fly over the north pole there and then return over the the same route GIUK gap.

here is a declassified CIA doc that goes into significance of soviet Bear-D deployment in Conakry - some parts are still classified
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_000026 ... 261307.pdf

we need our ELINT birds and P8I to be snooping around over the South china sea to build a good profile of the PLAN and PLANAF assets, electronic orbat etc...not just needling them.

one has gotta start somewhere and this is probably the best spot.

[Will]

However, they have huge incentive to try and take Tawang because it is politically important for their Tibet strategy and it is a tactically doable scenario.

Really?

I will leave it that India is aware of it.

Do you really feel that India has no plans to counter it?

An article a few months back in India Today of how the IA had fortified Arunachal. How if the Chinese tried to come into Arunachal they would find 3 full IA Corps waiting for them.

[Will]

This is something that can and should be done regardless of the above expectations. The reason being that the only way you can expect the Tibetans to help India is by holding down large formations of the PLA on internal security duties. This is not to say that the Indians will actually liberate Tibet, but that hope will serve as a motivator for the Tibetans to do something. If you think that is being callous, it is. The best possible outcome of the above is that the load on the Indian Army at the borders gets lower while facing the PLA.

Well the Chinese can always instigate their Paki friends to open a second front and tie us down on the western front unless uncle sam manages to keep the Pakis out.. But uncle sams bargining power with the Pakis is going down day by day.

[chackojoseph]

it would have the same problems china would have if they try to militarise string of pearls, the force stationed would be below critical size and enemy would be able to deal with each peacemeal.
unless we decide to base at least a full wing along with its own radar, tanker etc assets, it won't be useful.

China is doing the right thing by supplying weapons for a price backed by diplomatic support. It might or not involve itself upfront in case of a local conflict. This is tier II model for US in most places where it does not has a base.

[Will]

Supply Vietnam with Brahmos to further choke the PLAN.

[Singha]

vietnam has already signed a deal to get the ASM Yakhont and got two batteries already in 2011 (K300-P bastion coastal defense system)

http://www.interfax.co.uk/russia-cis-mi ... vietnam-2/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2eks1w6-4Y

but we can sell them the land attack version and brahmos2 is due course...maybe

[chackojoseph]

Sell Akash, Air launched brahmos, Land Version, prithvi's ASW Corvets, HUMSA, etc etc. Position CBG, Nuclear sub (when it comes) near Nam int'l waters. Base Su-30's in Orissa, Tamil Nadu.

[Will]

A discussion a short while ago on NDTV about Chinese assertivness. Unfortunately I switched on only towards the end. But there was this former army general who said something to the account that we could be facing 34 Chinese Divisions in Tibet. How many can India muster to face them? Ofcourse maintaining a supply chain for 34 divisions over a period of time is not going to be easy but how many divisions can we face them with to stop from getting overwhelmed by sheer numbers.Thats over a million troops :(:(

[chackojoseph]

Will,

I have not seen the dabate, however, you can read this to get another perspective Why 1962 will not be repeated

[Christopher Sidor]

Came upon this fascinating thread pretty late in life. I should get out of Strategic Affairs forum more often.

Some pages (years?) ago Paul had introduced the idea that PLAAF airbases in Yunnan could menace Indian positions in NEFA without their aircraft being hamstrung by the altitude effects of taking off from Tibet. They would not need to overfly Myanmar to perform aerial interdiction or CAS for a PLA invasion of AP.

As a counter; I wonder if it would be possible to obtain IAF basing rights in northern Vietnam, and put a couple of MKI squadrons there.

Did some Google Earthing and found that most of VNPAF's bases are in Southern 'Nam, built by the Americans. Only a few old French bases in the North are being used by the VNPAF in any major way. Both of the biggest are near Ha Noi.

Gia Lam is still in use, the VNPAF bases Mig 21s and Ka28 choppers there.

There is also the retired Bach Mai base in suburban Ha Noi. I wonder if the Vietnamese would be amenable to something as provocative to Beijing as giving IAF basing rights so close to their own capital city. Bach Mai is about 360 km from Honghe (the largest Chinese city in southern Yunnan) and interestingly, only about 500 km from Hainan (where the PLAN has a major presence.)

Further north and west of Ha Noi there are no VNPAF bases that I could locate. The terrain (forested hills) doesn't seem particularly suited to constructing new ones. I am sure there are small airfields, helipads etc. but nothing easily accessible in the public domain.

I rather not base india's defense on some 3rd party whims. Yes fighters from Yunnan can menace India just as fighters based out of East Turkestan. But to counter these we need bases in North-east and in upper reaches of himachal.

[ShauryaT]

it would have the same problems china would have if they try to militarise string of pearls, the force stationed would be below critical size and enemy would be able to deal with each peacemeal.
unless we decide to base at least a full wing along with its own radar, tanker etc assets, it won't be useful.

Even then, the expectation that we will fight their battles is unrealistic with the meagre resources in hands of our forces, even 10 years out. Cannot do any of this, till we acquire an ability to supply say a large portion of Nam's forces with Indian military assets but then that is another story.

An opinion exists out there that there are geo-political opportunities to be exploited all around us, but does India have the capabilities to resource them, is a question.

[ramana]

Looks like there is a need to revive this thread.

It was started 10 years ago.

[Manish_Sharma]

Is Tibet Chinese Territory?

Satyam Kumar Goswami


https://www.cisindus.org/2020/07/12/is- ... territory/

[Manish_Sharma]

TWITTER

@green_fire:

For the first time in history, US AID has officially allocated $ 1 million to the Tibetan government in exile.

https://twitter.com/_green_fire/status/ ... 44896?s=19