Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

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dipak
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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby dipak » 01 Jan 2013 16:42

vivek_ahuja wrote:And after finishing the current scenario I have to select a good name for the book from the awesome suggestions here AND get Harper-Collins-India to pick up the book. I am in touch with their senior folks and am directing them to this thread so that they can take a look-see and realize that military techno-thriller genre is not a dead literature in India (their biggest concern).

Lot of work, as you can see. :!:


And your current novel will give this genre a fillip, for sure as we brfite would love to lap it at the first possible opportunity!

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby gkriish » 01 Jan 2013 18:04

vivek_ahuja wrote:
gkriish wrote:when you speak of bhramos being intercepted by the Chinese HQ-9 and S300 in the day 2 and day 3. As my memory serves that the only air defence missiles that can intercept the Supersonic missiles were the Sea sparrow with AGES system but in your story i do see that each of bhramos is being shot by HQ9 which is no where when compared to the sea sparrow or barak for that matter and i do understand that barak is one of the best ship defence missile available..... Correct me if i am wrong.....


Frankly, it has been made utterly clear to me that the three posts I made on naval warfare between the IN and the PLAN were the most controversial of any posts I have made here in over five years! :)

My conclusions for the post your quoted regarding the effectiveness of the 052C destroyers and their HQ-9 systems has been discusssed in detail in previous pages. It has also been refuted on a few details which I have adjusted for and corrected into the book draft of this scenario. Hopefully the BRF Scenarios Jirga will accept the revised naval scenes in the novel following the corrections and the changes.

For now, all I can say is that I am being generous to the HQ-9 system and its abilities. I would be happy for it to be proven wrong in real life and as Singha and the others here pointed out, there are numerous ways in which they can be bypassed.

Since I cannot edit those BRF posts here in the new-and-improved forum software, I would ask for you to please pass me some leniency on the grounds of "artistic license" ( :mrgreen: ) for now until the book is available.

Thanks.



Now i understand i read your whole warfare yesterday and i did not know since when this thread was running however only after posting this question i came to know that this has been running since 2008 so no issues vivek i understand about the naval engagement no issues.....
thanks for the reply

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 02 Jan 2013 13:39

DAY 10


JUNWEI KONGJUN
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS CENTER
BEIJING
DAY 10 + 0500 HRS


“General, I understand the concern…Yes. Indeed. I will take care of it.”
Feng put down the phone and then rubbed his eyes. The commander of the 19TH Fighter Division had called up to express his reservations about the upcoming operation.
He isn’t the only one…Feng thought as he took a deep breath.

Feng fished into his uniform coat pocket and pulled out a cigarette and put it in his mouth. He was about to light it when he saw Major Li, his adjutant, giving him a poker face look. Feng saw it and then glanced at the sign inside the center that said ‘no smoking’.
Oh come on!
Feng shook his head and put out the lighter and put it back into his pocket. He saw Li turn back to his papers when Feng pulled the unlit cigarette back from his mouth and into his pocket with a disappointed shake of the head.

The room bustled outside the sound-proofed conference room as both men watched. Dozens of junior officers and NCOs walked about in their sharp looking uniform coats and ties. But there was something else in the air that Feng could sense and feel. He thought he felt the air of disappointment in the center. Maybe it was the way the shoulders were slumped or the eyes of the men.

They knew the war was not going well.

Feng grunted. Of course it wasn’t going well. In fact he could even say it was going bad. But that was far from saying that the war was lost.
No! The war is not lost! Not while we still have Fighter Divisions yet to be bloodied in combat!

And so it would be today. The weather over Tibet had not cooperated since yesterday night and operation Punitive-Dragon had to be delayed till today. Feng had just been briefed by the senior meteorological officer that weather conditions over Tibet were expected to improve in the next few hours. And right now the fighter pilots were waking up and preparing their J-11s for combat at Korla, Urumqi and Wulumuqi airbases in northwestern China. The 19TH Division‘s entire 55TH Regiment was involved in Punitive-Dragon, along with the 26TH Fighter Division’s special mission aircraft from the 76TH ACCR at Korla and tanker support from the 36TH Bomber Division at Wugong airbase.

Feng did notice that the 76TH ACCR was not showing up as active from Golmud. That base was still down and would not be operative again until later this evening. Two whole days after it had been struck by the Indian Agni-Is. That attack rankled Feng to the point that he found himself clouded with rage every time he was reminded of it. The embarrassment of the attack had been hard to bear. But General Wencang and Lieutenant-General Chen had prevented the CMC from replying back with nuclear weapons on the grounds that China’s conventional forces still retained devastating combat potential to hit back at the Indians. Feng was not convinced by that argument anymore.

And Punitive-Dragon was the litmus test for it.

The stakes were high. If it succeeded, it would give back the PLAAF enough of a victory to take back to the CMC and maybe restore enough face to negotiate an end to the war. If it failed, it would be the last such plan to go into play before Colonel-General Liu went into action with his plans…

The thought of that did force Feng to pull out his cigarette once more and this time he lit it despite the looks from Major Li who was left to wonder what was going through the Senior-Colonel’s mind.
Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 02 Jan 2013 14:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 02 Jan 2013 14:07

AIRSPACE OVER THE MALACCA STRAIT
DAY 10 + 0800 HRS


The six Su-30s pulled up above the clouds and climbed to thirty-thousand feet. The cloudy environ below was suddenly replaced with bright sunlight and blue skies above a white cloudy floor below as the three pairs of aircraft rose above the muck. The twelve pilots and WSOs began lowering their helmet visors in quick succession as the sunlight lit up their cockpit. They noticed the sunlight glinting off the fuselage of the two Il-78s further south, trailing four long white condensation trails at the high altitude. The tankers had lifted off thirty minute prior to give them a head start. The pilots appreciated the two lumbering aircraft in front of them as they caught up with them. They knew how desperately thin the IAF miniscule tanker fleet, concentrated into the No. 78 Squadron, really was. These two birds had been pulled off the squadron roster for this mission from Kalaikunda the day before and had flown down to the Andaman Islands over the night. The presence of these two aircraft here meant that the Eastern Air Command had only one available dedicated tanker for the rest of the day today and they would be forced to refuel only the mission-critical aircraft such as the single Phalcon and the two CABS AEWs operating from Kalaikunda or fighters declaring fuel emergency as they returned from some mission over the eastern skies.

To the Su-30 pilots of the No. 18 ‘Flying Bullets’ squadron, it was an indication of the importance attached to this operation by the IAF high command. The six aircraft pulled up alongside the tankers and got a friendly wave from the cockpits of the tankers who were just as happy to see their escorts as the escorts were to have them around. But for now, the pilots and crews of the eight aircraft had seven hours of boredom ahead while the war continued to rage on the mainland…

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby dipak » 02 Jan 2013 14:30

So, time for some action in heart of mainland China ..it seems ... :-)

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby k prasad » 02 Jan 2013 14:39

Woo Hoo!! I just finished reading through the entire 75 pages of this thread, and was about to type a reply asking Vivek for more. Thankfully, the two new posts were pretty awesome.

Hoping for a flood of these posts today!! :-D

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 02 Jan 2013 14:48

THE MINISTRY OF NATIONAL DEFENSE BUILDING
BEIJING
DAY 10 + 0900 HRS


“So they will not cooperate?” Peng asked Liu about his meeting with the Pakistani envoy.
“Doesn’t look like it,” Liu said as he walked up to his seat at the table and sat down. They were the only two in the room apart from Liu’s adjutant, Colonel Dianrong. Peng walked in silence to the conference room’s windows and saw a light snow falling outside as men and women walked to their work. He also saw the soldiers patrolling outside as their boots trampled on the fallen snow.

“They sense our weakness and respond accordingly,” Peng said while staring out the window.
Liu had never really liked Peng’s use of theatrics or the cryptic nature of his words. He preferred things stated simple and clear. Perhaps the nature of his job instilled in him the sense to seek clarity in the words of others or else disastrous events might ensue. He frowned as he watched Peng looking out the window as the gray clouds overhead brought with them a feeling of doom…

“This has gone on far too long, Peng,” Liu said forcefully. “Even our supposed ally can now see the writing on the wall. Either you end the war using politics and whatever passes for diplomacy under these circumstances or let me take care of this problem with more direct methods!”

Peng turned around on hearing what Liu had to say, but he wasn’t going to let the General play with his toys so easily…
No! I will not authorize the use of nuclear weapons when the enemy has the assets to turn everything you see here,” Peng pointed his arm out the window towards the city, “into a pile of radioactive ash! Perhaps you have been out of the city for far too long because of the nature of your job, so maybe it is hard for you to understand this, but I love this capital city. And I will not lose it over Tibet! There has to be another way!”

“And perhaps you have been in the city for far too long,” Liu said menacingly.

“Watch your words, General. You may have command of the military but the party still commands the people of China,” Peng warned.
“Perhaps we should ask the army what they have to say about the party’s control over this country,” Liu threatened. He saw Peng’s face lose blood as he considered what the General was saying. His face then reflected a mask of pure anger. Liu was not intimidated, however.

“Peng, if you wish for the party’s rule over China to continue, you cannot afford to be so attached to material things so as to cloud your own judgment. Cities can be rebuilt quicker than national pride in the face of defeat,” Liu said more calmly this time. He saw Peng standing in silence so he continued:
“The Indians are easily intimidated; More so their government than the military. All it will take to subdue their nation is one show of our determination to remain undefeated.”

“What do you suggest?” Peng uttered out as he continued to seethe.

“That we warn the Indians of our will do this,” Liu replied. “The Russian foreign minister Bogdanov and his ministry initiated conversations between us and New-Delhi yesterday, didn’t they? We now have a direct line of communications with New-Delhi. Use it. Tell them what we can and will do if they do not end offensive combat operations on the border immediately.”

“This is outrageous! New-Delhi will never agree to end the war under such threats! Do you forget that we are the ones losing the battles in Tibet, not them?” Peng said
“Just do it,” Liu said as he got up, his voice laced with menace. “They will listen. They have to. They know who we are and what we are capable of.”

“At this point I am not sure who you are, General,” Peng replied soberly, “so I very much doubt that they do either.”

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby k prasad » 02 Jan 2013 14:56

vivek_ahuja wrote:THE MINISTRY OF NATIONAL DEFENSE BUILDING
BEIJING
DAY 10 + 0900 HRS


...

Peng turned around on hearing what Liu had to say, but he wasn’t going to let the General play with his toys so easily…
No! I will not authorize the use of nuclear weapons when the enemy has the assets to turn everything you see here,” Peng pointed his arm out the window towards the city, “into a pile of radioactive ash! Perhaps you have been out of the city for far too long because of the nature of your job, so maybe it is hard for you to understand this, but I love this capital city. And I will not lose it over Tibet! There has to be another way!”

...




Interesting... do I sense a deal for the return of Aksai Chin to India and giving up claims for Arunachal in return for India allowing PRC to retain Tibet as a true one-state, two-systems autonomous region? That would allow China to retain some semblance of face-saving with their people.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Avarachan » 02 Jan 2013 14:59

vivek_ahuja wrote:
And after finishing the current scenario I have to select a good name for the book from the awesome suggestions here AND get Harper-Collins-India to pick up the book. I am in touch with their senior folks and am directing them to this thread so that they can take a look-see and realize that military techno-thriller genre is not a dead literature in India (their biggest concern).

Lot of work, as you can see. :!:


Vivek, I'm sure that we here on BRF would be happy to extend whatever help we can in promoting your book. For instance, I personally know a few journalists and think-tank analysts in South India. (I'll send an email to your Yahoo address in a few minutes with some specifics.) In the meantime, as a trial run, if you wanted, you could ask BRF members to "share" and "like" your book announcement on their respective social networks (Facebook, Twitter, etc.) as an indication of their enthusiasm for your book. (http://mach-five.blogspot.com/2012/12/i ... wn-by.html)
Publishers take that sort of metric seriously. Just let us know what you would like.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 02 Jan 2013 15:01

KORLA
NORTHWESTERN CHINA
DAY 10 + 0930 HRS


The four engines of the KJ-2000 roared to life as the aircraft thundered down the runway trailing exhaust smoke from all four engines. After several hundred meters of roll, the nose of the aircraft rotated above the concrete and the aircraft lifted into the air. The undercarriage rolled into their bays as the aircraft picked up altitude from the base, watched by hundreds of ground crews. The blue skies above were covered with dozens of white contrail pairs heading south as Forty-two J-11s of the 55TH Fighter Regiment/19TH Fighter Division gathering in the skies above like an iron-fist before heading south into Tibet at the start of operation Punitive-Dragon…

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 02 Jan 2013 15:03

Avarachan wrote:Vivek, I'm sure that we here on BRF would be happy to extend whatever help we can in promoting your book. For instance, I personally know a few journalists and think-tank analysts in South India. (I'll send an email to your Yahoo address in a few minutes with some specifics.) In the meantime, as a trial run, if you wanted, you could ask BRF members to "share" and "like" your book announcement on their respective social networks (Facebook, Twitter, etc.) as an indication of their enthusiasm for your book. (http://mach-five.blogspot.com/2012/12/i ... wn-by.html)
Publishers take that sort of metric seriously. Just let us know what you would like.


I appreciate that saar. I was anyway counting on support from the BRF community. I look forward to seeing your email. When I am done submitting the book for publication next week, I will set up the requisite pages on Bharat-Rakshak, Facebook etc so that members can comment there.

-Vivek

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Avarachan » 02 Jan 2013 15:50

k prasad wrote:
Interesting... do I sense a deal for the return of Aksai Chin to India and giving up claims for Arunachal in return for India allowing PRC to retain Tibet as a true one-state, two-systems autonomous region? That would allow China to retain some semblance of face-saving with their people.


K Prasad, the Dalai Lama has demanded that Tibet be de-militarized and given true autonomy. I seriously doubt that China will agree to that unless it faces *total* defeat and has no choice. Currently, India does not have the means to inflict that sort of direct defeat on China.

However, as a curious parallel, Chandra Bose knew that he could not defeat the full strength of the British military in India. What he wanted to do was defeat the British in the North-East and then trigger a widespread revolt against British rule in the Indian mainland. He tragically died before his dream could become a reality, but that is actually what happened (though this is not generally reported in history books). The trial of INA officers in 1945 had a direct role in the Indian Navy's revolt in 1946. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Indian_Navy_mutiny) There's a great new (2011) biography of Chandra Bose written by his great-nephew, Sugata Bose: "His Majesty's Opponent." It's excellent: I highly recommend it. (http://www.amazon.com/His-Majestys-Oppo ... 0674047540)

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby k prasad » 02 Jan 2013 16:12

Avarachan wrote:
k prasad wrote:
Interesting... do I sense a deal for the return of Aksai Chin to India and giving up claims for Arunachal in return for India allowing PRC to retain Tibet as a true one-state, two-systems autonomous region? That would allow China to retain some semblance of face-saving with their people.


K Prasad, the Dalai Lama has demanded that Tibet be de-militarized and given true autonomy. I seriously doubt that China will agree to that unless it faces *total* defeat and has no choice. Currently, India does not have the means to inflict that sort of direct defeat on China.

However, as a curious parallel, Chandra Bose knew that he could not defeat the full strength of the British military in India. What he wanted to do was defeat the British in the North-East and then trigger a widespread revolt against British rule in the Indian mainland. He tragically died before his dream could become a reality, but that is actually what happened (though this is not generally reported in history books). The trial of INA officers in 1945 had a direct role in the Indian Navy's revolt in 1946. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Indian_Navy_mutiny) There's a great new (2011) biography of Chandra Bose written by his great-nephew, Sugata Bose: "His Majesty's Opponent." It's excellent: I highly recommend it. (http://www.amazon.com/His-Majestys-Oppo ... 0674047540)


You are quite right Avarachan... most people seem to believe that Quit India and Gandhi's movement led to the British deciding to give India independence, but really, it was the post-INA trial revolts and the mutiny by the Naval ensigns in Bombay that sparked the panic that made them decide to leave, since they were no longer securely in control of their forces.

As for Tibet, well, you make a good point - China giving up Tibet will mark the end of a one-China policy. But they are facing conventional defeat at the moment (although that will depend on the outcome of Punitive Dragon), so it could possibly lead there, especially if the revolt in Tibet will continue to bleed them even after the war.

It would be interesting to see where the Nuclear rhetoric leads to in this wargame, and whether the Indian Govt is willing to drop the Tibetan movement's interests in favour of a final border settlement with China that would allow them to retain face and Tibet while making it seem like they've 'punished' India. Considering that China's initial ostensible casus belli was Indian abetment of the Tibetan revolt, it might be a possible face-saving exit for China if India publicly reiterates Chinese control of Tibet.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 02 Jan 2013 16:23

OVER SOUTHERN TIBET
DAY 10 + 1030 HRS


Inbound! Inbound! Holy shit! We have more than forty bandits charging in from the north!”

The radar operators on board the CABS AEW aircraft were the first Indian military personnel to learn what Punitive-Dragon had in store. As the mission systems crew on board the small Embraer aircraft started sending urgent information to the Indian Eastern and Central Air Commands, the skies over southern Tibet become contested once again after days of virtual IAF air superiority…

Forty-two?!” the mission-commander shouted and ran over behind the console operator.

“Roger that! Didn’t think the reds had that many Su-27s left!” the operator replied as he categorized the inbound threats.
“E-S-M picking up red airborne-radar emissions to the north behind the inbounds! They just went active!” the electronic-warfare officer shouted from another console.
“What the hell are they…” the mission-commander realized the answer to that question mid-way through his own question.

Oh shit!

He ran over to the cockpit and poked his head through the cockpit cabin door, startling the two pilots sitting there, watching the sunny day over the white cloud cover below. They turned to face the mission-commander standing behind:

“What the hell?” the pilot blurted out.
“Get us out of here! Now! We have forty-two Flankers inbound with airborne-radar support heading straight for us!” the mission commander ordered, his voice cracking under the stress.

“Good god! That many? Okay, we are leaving!” the pilot said as both him and the co-pilot immediately began pulling the aircraft out of auto-pilot and the pilot put his right hand on the throttles and pushed them forward to the maximum.

The engines whined at a higher pitch and the aircraft engine noise in the cabin instantly increased and the operators felt themselves pushed into their seats a little bit as the aircraft accelerated. The aircraft then banked to the side as the pilots pulled the aircraft out of its race-track patrol location south of Lhasa and back towards the south…

The mission-commander walked back behind the radar controllers and checked the screen. Sure enough, the Chinese Flankers were inbound straight towards the Indian AEW aircraft under guidance from the KJ-2000 crew. The PLAAF was now attempting to do exactly what the Western Air Command had done a few days ago over the Taklimakan desert against the 26TH Air Division’s KJ-2000 cover.

Well, we will see about that!

The mission-commander told himself as he keyed his intercom to the other two flight operations personnel on the two other consoles:
“Okay, people. Listen up. We are now evacuating this bird back into Bhutanese airspace at least until this threat subsides. I want every single friendly fighter that has any, I repeat: any air-to-air weaponry to head inbound to our location right now! I want to negate as much of the enemy’s numerical advantage as we can!”


Outside the aircraft, the four Su-30s on close escort duty immediately punched afterburners and accelerated to engage and buy their AEW aircraft time to escape. Six other Su-30s over Sikkim on BARCAP duties also accelerated north. Another six Mirage-2000s over Assam were also instructed to move to join the fight while more aircraft were being scrambled into the skies. The only available Phalcon in the east was refueling on the ground at Kalaikunda and was told to immediately scramble into the skies if in the worst case scenario it would be needed to take over airborne-control over the skies. Fighter aircraft were being scrambled from Kalaikunda, Hashimara, Baghdogra and Bareilly airbases but they were further out and would take time to get on station. This battle would be over in minutes…


The Chinese KJ-2000 detected the ten inbound Indian Su-30s from the south soon enough. They also noted that the Indian AEW had broken pattern south of Lhasa and was accelerating south, but keeping its radar operational so that they knew exactly what the PLAAF aircraft were up to. The PLAAF Colonel commanding the 55TH Regiment Flankers noted this and ordered his aircraft to punch their afterburners and engage the ten Indian fighters. Thirty of his fighters now did that and climbed higher. The other twelve continued on their original mission and intended to bypass the Indian fighters and kill their prey, the Indian AEW aircraft trying to escape.
The battle had more tactical dimensions than simply a number game. The Chinese pursuit of the vulnerable Indian AEW allowed them to pivot the Indian defenses around it, reducing their flexibility and giving the Chinese commander more aggressive options…



The ten Indian Sukhois were outnumbered three-to-one at the moment and they could not disengage. That said, their version of the Flanker was much more advanced than the Chinese one, and the Indian pilots better trained and now more experienced in combat over the last ten days than the 19TH Division pilots in their first taste of battle. The human element in war was important. It had allowed the Indian pilots to win past engagements against numerically superior Chinese aircraft formations. But the Flanker was still a Flanker and handled competently, a danger to anyone. More to the point, with so many enemy Flankers in the sky against a smaller Indian force, the odds had been evened. The Chinese might not have held any great advantage over the Indian Su-30 drivers and vice versa. And that was a big change for the Indian pilots: they were now equally matched by the enemy. And that meant trouble.

The first missile shots were traded several minutes later as thirty PLAAF J-11s and ten Indian Su-30s fired volleys of R-77s at the enemy until their pylons went empty except for the R-73 short-range missiles. With over a hundred missiles crisscrossing each other over the blue skies of southern Tibet, the threats instantly became more than what the onboard systems on both sides could bear. All aircraft broke formation and dived just as the missiles from both sides tore into each other and fireballs erupted on both sides.

The Indian pilots were counting on their superior onboard ECMs to spoof the Chinese missiles. Many did get spoofed. Others didn’t and went after the chaff clouds left behind by the diving aircraft. That accounted for many missiles as well. But with so many missiles flying around, not all could be spoofed. Three Indian Su-30s were blotted out of the sky in fireballs as missile exhaust trails left a spider web of white lines across the sky.

On the Chinese sides, twelve J-11s went down under R-77 hits, shattering several aircraft to smithereens and sending others down trailing a column of thick black smoke. Several pilots managed to eject out from both sides and canopies deployed further near the ground. By this time, however, the seven surviving Su-30s merged with the eighteen J-11s in a visual dogfight at close range, something that the Indians excelled at and something the PLAAF pilots did not get to do as aggressively before the war.

And the results showed. Five J-11s were hit within two minutes of the merge by Indian R-73s that sent all five aircraft heading uncontrollably towards the peaks below. Two more got hit but pulled out of the fight and headed north trailing flames and smoke from one of their engines. But with so many aircraft in the sky, the Indian pilots began running out of missiles and unable to escape. Two more Indian Su-30s were hit when they were unable to escape from the sheer numbers of enemy aircraft in the sky around them. Both sides had by now resorted to cannon rounds and tracers were filling the skies…


Further to the west, the twelve Flankers going after the Indian AEW bypassed the murderous battle taking place on their left flank and continued south on full afterburner, easily eating up the distance between them and the Embraer. As the pilots began cycling through their weapons and lit up their radars to take the shot, their airborne-radar confirmed the arrival of the six Mirage-2000s streaking north into southern Tibet from Sikkim. Ten of the twelve Flankers now diverted to engage these aircraft while the Colonel commanding the 55TH Fighter Regiment and his wingman headed in for the kill…


On board the Embraer, the mission-commander knew exactly what the threats were. He found it hard to swallow and his hands and forehead were sweaty. He could hear his own heartbeat as he realized that the fleet of Indian fighters arriving from four separate airbases would not get there in time. The radar operator in front of him looked back as he came to the same conclusion. The mission commander kept his hand on the young operator’s shoulder to keep him calm. He then walked over to his seat and strapped himself in. The aircraft suddenly lurched to the side and vibrated as they heard the whumps of chaff clouds being punched out by the pilots up front. He heard the pilots and their comms as they communicated urgently with the Eastern-Air-Command operations center and the incoming Phalcon who had lifted off from Kalaikunda. But he understood from the comms that with forty-two enemy Flankers in the sky, every available Indian fighter nearby was engaged in a fight for its life…
He pressed the armrests of his seat tightly when the aircraft dived again violently and he heard the familiar whumps of chaffs. Then he closed his eyes as he heard the pilots say “Oh my god!
A few seconds later there was a massive flash of light from the port-side oval window and then an explosion as flames burst into the cabin and spread over the screaming operators inside…


The commander of the 55TH Fighter Regiment smiled menacingly as his two Flankers banked away to the east after seeing a fireball from their prey to the south. He and his wingman did not get the chance to celebrate for long, though. To his north, the battle between the Indian Su-30s and the other Flankers had ended with the survivors from both sides disengaging on account of no weapons available to either side. Seven J-11s were flying north while five Indian Su-30s were heading southeast with one of them trailing smoke and being escorted by two of the others.

To his west, the Mirages had finished off all ten J-11s from that force with murderous precision and were now banking to engage him and his wingman. Both the Colonel and his wingman dived and punched afterburners to escape, but the Mirage pilots had seen the trail of smoke left by the Embraer aircraft to the south and they were not letting the perpetrators get away that easily. They dived in behind and all six aircraft launched a series of Matra Super 530D missiles that quickly nailed both escaping J-11s in a series of explosions…



Back at the Junwei-Kongjun, Feng rubbed his eyes as details of the battle started piling in. Of the forty-two J-11s committed to battle, only seven had returned. In exchange, five Indian Su-30s and one of their AEW aircraft had been destroyed. It was a deadly price to pay and the 55TH Regiment of the 19TH Fighter Division was no more. Major Li ordered the staff to update the unified MRAF orbat and the 19TH Division presence was removed from Urumqi while the seven J-11s were diverted to Korla. Punitive-Dragon had achieved its goals of eliminating the Indian airborne-radar presence south of Lhasa. So it was a victory.

Was it really? Feng wondered and walked out of the room.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby k prasad » 02 Jan 2013 16:48

35 Chinese a/c lost to 5 Indian a/c lost (not counting the AEW ie) - thats a 7:1 kill ratio for the Indians. Impressive by any stretch of imagination, but just wondering Vivek, is it realistically going to be that dominant, or have there been mitigating factors in this specific scenario that allow for it (I mean, over and above the training, experience and tech advantages that you elaborated upon above?). I'm specifically wondering about the 10-0 win to the Mirages against the Su-27s, given that both aircrafts are roughly similar in capabilities.

Also, this operation perfectly fits the description of a Pyrrhic victory. Vivek, please do explain in the next posts about Fengs rationale for being ok with this level of loss. It would certainly make for an extremely interesting analysis that I'm keen on understanding. After all, they just lost 2 sqn worth of advanced aircraft, in exchange for effectively killing one AWACS, a loss which is already being plugged in by the incoming Phalcon. Unless there are two phases to this operation, like there were in the earlier ops where the initial takedown of ISR is followed by a strike in the small window when it is down.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 02 Jan 2013 17:00

k prasad wrote:35 Chinese a/c lost to 5 Indian a/c lost (not counting the AEW ie) - thats a 7:1 kill ratio for the Indians. Impressive by any stretch of imagination, but just wondering Vivek, is it realistically going to be that dominant, or have there been mitigating factors in this specific scenario that allow for it (I mean, over and above the training, experience and tech advantages that you elaborated upon above?). I'm specifically wondering about the 10-0 win to the Mirages against the Su-27s, given that both aircrafts are roughly similar in capabilities.


The thing you have to consider is really that the Su-30s and the Mirages are far superior to the baseline J-11 in terms of capability. So while the 30 odd stacked J-11s can overwhelm the 10 Su-30s by numbers, the same did not apply for the 10 vs 6 ratio for the Mirages. Plus the experience, training etc for the Mirage pilots over the average J-11 driver in the PLAAF is substantial.

Also, this operation perfectly fits the description of a Pyrrhic victory. Vivek, please do explain in the next posts about Fengs rationale for being ok with this level of loss. It would certainly make for an extremely interesting analysis that I'm keen on understanding. After all, they just lost 2 sqn worth of advanced aircraft, in exchange for effectively killing one AWACS, a loss which is already being plugged in by the incoming Phalcon. Unless there are two phases to this operation, like there were in the earlier ops where the initial takedown of ISR is followed by a strike in the small window when it is down.


He is far from okay with the losses, as the post above hints to. But it is in line with his character of delivering results at any cost.

The book details Feng's character in much greater detail as also it does Chen, Wencang and Liu. Feng's adaptive approach to the Indian superiority in technology and the limitations of his own air-force coupled with his sense of delivering results is of course the one liner answer to the question. But its evolutionary over the time period and the book treats his thoughts and actions in the backdrop of IAF operations. As an indicator, if you recall Feng's hesitancy when something similar to Punitive-Dragon was initiated by Major-General Zhigao at the start of the war against Leh and Avantipur based No. 28 Squadron Mig-29s. But then he had reason to be hesitant because his air-defense plans were still alive and kicking (specifically the S-300s) along with the rest of the PLAAf at that time. I also added material that expands on the relationship between General Chen and Feng and between Generals Wencang and Chen in the months leading up to the war and the plans they enacted to give their force a fighting chance despite the presence of men like General Jinping, Zhigao etc who were more obstacles and typical of the Generals who had never fought a war in their life.

The material I added in the book also expands on Wencang and Liu's philosophic approaches for war in the months leading up to it. These two Generals to me (from the author's standpoint) represent the way people might react to a deteriorating war front and that to me was worthy of investigation. Frankly, the first scenario I wrote in 2007 was found lacking in the way it left out the Chinese side in terms of characters. I think overall this scenario and the book benefits from us looking at the Chinese as humans who are caught having to defend and fight for their own country as our people do. It gets far more convoluted that way compared with looking at just Divisions on the map. It also makes it real because that's the way it really is! The Chinese leaders tie their zippers in the washroom just like anybody else. So why treat them as stereotypical two-dimensional villains?
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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby k prasad » 02 Jan 2013 17:14

The book details Feng's character in much greater detail as also it does Chen, Wencang and Liu.


Awesome!! That would be incredible. Till now, we have seen a lot of innovative tactics from the Chinese (their diversionary missile attacks to target Paro with bombers was quite awesome), so it'd be great to see how these operations developed from their side. Both sides have suffered tactical losses and had great wins, but somewhere, the Chinese have lost strategic initiative.

Feng's adaptive approach to the Indian superiority in technology and the limitations of his own air-force coupled with his sense of delivering results is of course the one liner answer to the question. But its evolutionary over the time period and the book treats his thoughts and actions in the backdrop of IAF operations.


Indeed... I'm quite impressed with some of the Chinese tactics and operations till now, especially those that Feng has initiated. Some of the ground commanders also seem to be pretty professional and innovative, as the stalemate in Chumbi indicates.

As an indicator, if you recall Feng's hesitancy when something similar to Punitive-Dragon was initiated by Major-General Zhigao at the start of the war against Leh and Avantipur based No. 28 Squadron Mig-29s. But then he had reason to be hesitant because his air-defense plans were still alive and kicking (specifically the S-300s).


So in a sense, Punitive Dragon is a largely last resort action that he has really no other choice?

I wonder if China might've won this air war if Zhigao hadn't been stupid in that initial operation. I'd hate to divert you with this hypothetical Vivek, but if Feng's original suggestions of strikes on the airfields had been followed, do you think India would've lost the air war?

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 02 Jan 2013 17:27

k prasad wrote:So in a sense, Punitive Dragon is a largely last resort action that he has really no other choice?

I wonder if China might've won this air war if Zhigao hadn't been stupid in that initial operation. I'd hate to divert you with this hypothetical Vivek, but if Feng's original suggestions of strikes on the airfields had been followed, do you think India would've lost the air war?


It is very much a last resort action short of a missiles war. With General Jinping gone and Wencang and Chen dismissed from the CMC, the PLAAF having lost upwards of five Fighter-Divisions and a host of other independent units and special mission aircraft, and the loss of airbases at Shigatse, Lhasa, Kashgar, Hotien, Golmud and other forwrad strips in southern Tibet, there is not much that they can do...

On the question of stirkes on airfelds, the answer is two part. One is tactical and the other more strategic (and open for discussion and counter-point):

a) Tactical: Feng's idea for the strikes on airfields was based around the strategically defensive operational mindset that he had before the war. He knew that IAF capabilities would prevail in the long run once it got over the element of surprise and got on with the war. There was simply no way for the PLAAF to prevail in the long run. So the idea was to buy just enough time so that the PLA could achieve its ground operations and achieve political goals to force an end to the war under Beijing's terms. Hence the S-300 air-defense strategy. Feng is shown to portray the idea in the book that Flanker fleets + KJ-2000s + S-300s used in cohesion could eliminate the IAF advantages and force them to take damage in case they tried to fight their way through it. Zhigao, through his actions, lost the Flanker fleet element from the trio above and it had a dominos style effect for the PLAAF in Ladakh.

b) Strategic: The use of long-range cruise-missiles is something that Feng is a big proponent of in the backdrop of a defensive shield tirad I mentioned above. The problem is that there is a flaw with this plan that he discovers as the war goes on: the subsonic cruise-missiles are incapable of breaking through the IAF defenses unless their fighters are bogged down fighting the PLAAF fighters. So his overall defensive mindset needed to be combined with something like Zhigao's concept of strategic offensives. The middle ground did not exist and hence they lost out.
If the PLAAF/PLA in any future war goes ahead with massive ballistic-missile (conventional warheads) bombardment of IAF airbases, there is a good chance that the IAF will be forced to be on the defensive very early on. But then we can do the same to their airfield as well! So whether its a case of both sides knocking each other out of the war is something that can happen. That war, mind you, would have escalated very quickly to the use of nuclear weapons because of other reasons. But this is of course debatable and like I said, I can only give my own personal opinion.

But otherwise, the defeat of an air-force is more the defeat of its air-ground system than the loss of fighters alone. So losing or winning an air-war has more to do with either being able or not being able to put up an aerial presence over the battlefield. It does not matter that China still has over a thousand fighters at this phase of the war. They don't have airfields in Tibet anymore or a large enough tanker fleet to matter. So what can they do with these fighters then? Once again, this is all expanded on in the book.
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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby chaanakya » 02 Jan 2013 17:28

Damn 42 ba$tards. All this 42 to kill one AEW. Few More Agni -1 and II at Korla, Urumqi and Wurumqi
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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Manish_Sharma » 02 Jan 2013 17:42

Hee hee !!!

After seeing Matra Super 530Ds, imagine what upgraded Mirages with their MICA missiles and RDY 2 radar will do to dragon airforce. 8)

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby k prasad » 02 Jan 2013 17:51

Vivek,

That what-if keeps running through my mind a lot, since Zhigao's decision, as you mention, had a domino effect. These counterfactuals and hypotheticals really make thinking this through quite interesting.

One thing that does strike my mind is the strength of the Chinese actions with their GLCMs. Do you think getting the Nirbhay into deployment in large numbers would've made our domination of them much faster and more total?

The other very interesting aspect has been our almost-total reliance on MLRS to support the ground war. I'm guessing that if the skies were neutral rather than IAF controlled, MLRS might've been more vulnerable, and in maybe a few days, resupply of larger rockets (rather than smaller Arty rounds) would've become much tougher to these groups? That seems like an interesting possibility.

Eagerly waiting for the next posts.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 02 Jan 2013 18:46

k prasad wrote:The other very interesting aspect has been our almost-total reliance on MLRS to support the ground war.


This was something that somebody else brought up as well. I guess the scenario ending up giving the feeling that we were totally dependent on MLRS but that is not the case. Just so happened that for the scenes I was describing had a requirement for the MLRS capability. Other battles were heavily dependent on the standard guns as was mentioned in passing the scenarios. I fixed that in the subsequent editing. And yes, the issue of resupply for these rockets is shown to be a problem with extended use.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby k prasad » 02 Jan 2013 19:01

Vivek, i'm guessing that given our low numbers of Arty guns and howitzers, they wont be able to play as critical a role anyway, right, considering that Arty needs to be massed to have a tangible effect.

Does your scenario occur before or after the induction of the Mountain howitzers and the creation of the mountain divisions that have been planned?

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Singha » 02 Jan 2013 19:25

Meantime the finance ministry has cut 10'000 crore from the defence modernization fund of this fiscal year.
The mrca deal will find funding only in next fiscal yr now.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby chaanakya » 02 Jan 2013 21:40

vivek_ahuja wrote:AIRSPACE OVER THE MALACCA STRAIT
DAY 10 + 0800 HRS

To the Su-30 pilots of the No. 18 ‘Flying Bullets’ squadron, it was an indication of the importance attached to this operation by the IAF high command. The six aircraft pulled up alongside the tankers and got a friendly wave from the cockpits of the tankers who were just as happy to see their escorts as the escorts were to have them around. But for now, the pilots and crews of the eight aircraft had seven hours of boredom ahead while the war continued to rage on the mainland…


Do they have range to go to mainland ( most probably hainan) and comeback? Or is it one way mission?
May be there is another refueling en-route courtesy Vietnam and on return they may take rest at Hanoi?

Did they disclose to Malaysia ( and Indonesia) their overflight plans and they actively cooperated?
Any mission to mainland panda depends on cooperation of lots of en-route nations in absence of Aircraft Carrier BG in Pacific.

Lets see which side of dragon a$4 these Flying bullets kick.



On another note, Pakis have disappointed Pandas. But it would have been better to explore if they started anlother limited or even full scale front. What could have been our options given the low level of equipment and supplies after 10 days of war.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby chaanakya » 02 Jan 2013 22:00

vivek_ahuja wrote:
But otherwise, the defeat of an air-force is more the defeat of its air-ground system than the loss of fighters alone. So losing or winning an air-war has more to do with either being able or not being able to put up an aerial presence over the battlefield. It does not matter that China still has over a thousand fighters at this phase of the war. They don't have airfields in Tibet anymore or a large enough tanker fleet to matter. So what can they do with these fighters then? Once again, this is all expanded on in the book.


They have not deployed these remaining fighters ( whatever they can spare from Eastern side) to South of Chengdu , somewhere in Yunnan, on Borders touching AP and Myanmar. I can see lots of Airfields that side and marked about 10-15 of them that may matter on Google. Probably they could pivot left and ingress Indian Airspace from East of Bhutan or AP. That way some fighters could be sent to the front.

Image

Another thing which struck me is that Like India they are fighting two front war with one country. DBO and Bhutan side. India could face third front from Pakis. Things would really get dicey for Indians and may quickly cross Nuke threshold.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby nash » 02 Jan 2013 22:59

it will be interesting to know about the package carried by those 6 MKI, and what are their target, chinese mainland or PLAN lone AC. I think it would be Chinese Mainland, then most probable option are all cities near guangzhao, if they are using Vietnamese airspace, though they have to go through bit of thailand and burma.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby nash » 02 Jan 2013 23:08

Was it really? Feng wondered and walked out of the room.


this last line very much summarizes the dilemma of feng after punitive dragon, that was it really worth to lose 35 fighter to bring down an AEWC and small chunk of MKI fleet.

what if IAF do the same in retaliation and take out their airbase one by one,IAF have done that in past, then PLAF don't have much to save their remaining bases.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby jamwal » 02 Jan 2013 23:55

When you read the discussion between Peng and Li, one thought that immediately comes to mind that Chinese will mimic Hitler. After some attacks on German cities, Hitler ordered Luftwaffe to divert all their resources to attack British civilian targets instead of military.. RAF which was on the verge of defeat at that time, needed a breather just like this and they made full use of the opportunity. But those were different times and even the deadliest German attacks couldn't cause as much damage as any country with long range missiles can inflict today.


Vivek sahib,
The 42 J-11 attack looks a bit out of character in this scenario. 3:1 and 2:1 numerical superiority over Su 30s and Mirages should count for more than just that. I'm not sure about Indian pilots being so much better than Chinese. Perhaps having a WSO gives Su-30s an advantage and Indian avionics may be better, but the final outcome still looks unrealistic. Mirages escaping unscathed against these odds in such a manner is even more strange considering that even baseline Su-27 will have very good air combat capabilities. I remember reading an article where it was mentioned that Mig-29 of IAF routinely beat Mirages in air combat.
Considering from Chinese viewpoint, any commander will think of it as a too high price to pay as you have mentioned earlier. But of course, if the motive was to punch a hole in Indian radar coverage for some other attack then things make some sense. Waiting for next batch of posts to make things clearer.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby asbchakri » 03 Jan 2013 01:50

Vivek, since this scenario is comong to a close, can you start on a different scenario in the 2018-2020 time frame, this time with a 2 way attack started by Pakistan and joined later by China (maybe supported by Nepal and Burma). This time frame could be good with the arrival of

1. Rafel available in small numbers
2. complete batch of SU-30 MKI's
3. Vik along with IAC
4. Kolkata Class all 3
5. Project 28 Class all 4+??
6. Modified Krivak III Class All 3
7. Project 17 all 3
8. Project 17A -1 or 2
9. 6 Scorpene
10. Nirbhay in good numbers along with Brahamos
11. Agni V in active duty(ICBM and SLBM)
12. ABM deployed

and much more. Hope it is not too much to ask for. :D :D

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Manish_Sharma » 03 Jan 2013 01:57

^^ Vivek has already said his next scenario will be 2020 +

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4287&start=2560#p1364885

This is of course not to say that a futuristic (2020+) scenario has not crossed my mind! Spoiler Alert: once this scenario ends this year (and we get this thing published and out on amazon or something for you guys), 2013 will start with a fresh scenario which I will be basing on a 2020+ timeline. I am working on its outlines at the moment.

Regards

-Vivek

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 03 Jan 2013 02:05

jamwal wrote:The 42 J-11 attack looks a bit out of character in this scenario. 3:1 and 2:1 numerical superiority over Su 30s and Mirages should count for more than just that. I'm not sure about Indian pilots being so much better than Chinese. Perhaps having a WSO gives Su-30s an advantage and Indian avionics may be better, but the final outcome still looks unrealistic. Mirages escaping unscathed against these odds in such a manner is even more strange considering that even baseline Su-27 will have very good air combat capabilities. I remember reading an article where it was mentioned that Mig-29 of IAF routinely beat Mirages in air combat.


This has more to do with a multitude of factors. One of which the combat experience of the pilots involved, which for the pilots of the IAF after ten days of intensive operations, is pretty high amonst the survivors (a darwinian process has already culled the lower skilled pilots and novices after so many days) and which even in peacetime is much higher than the average PLAAF pilot. THe 19TH Fighter Division, if you recall, has been in theater for a few days but has only participated in DCA role. No combat has taken place between its pilots and the Indians to the south. The IAF pilots know exactly how the J-11 behaves under a BVR environment and what the chinese skill sets are based on their combat experience with the 6TH, 33RD, 44TH and 37TH Fighter Divisions in the days before. The 19TH FD pilots do not have that level of experience with anything Indian at the time.

If you notice, the beginning combat scenes between the IAF and PLAAF were more evenly balanced in terms of losses. This is because the Darwinian process was working brutally on both sides, exacting kills and casualties. Over time, the losses on the Indian side reduced as the "survival of the fittest" logic worked to its brutal completion. The same did not apply on the PLAAF side because very few actually made it back to their bases for the experience to have any net effect. Plus Chen was being forced to rotate fresh units into place when others became depleted on account of few airbases available which meant the few survivors from those units were not being allowed to let their experience go anywhere.

And a Mig-29 will beat a Mirage but only when it is flown by its Indian pilots, if you follow.

Then there are other factors exuded to in the scenario. Indian ECMs and ECCMs on the Su-30MKI are generally considered far superior to the baseline Flanker and only been improved since. So while both sides have the same missiles to throw at each other, the ability to spoof them on the Indian side is higher. Much higher. Especially against swarm launches of missiles.

Splitting the overall force of 42 into smaller groups so that a final few can get through to the target is also an issue here. When they got down to it, The J-11s fighting the Mirages were at 1.6:1 advantage and maneuvering to buy time for the Regiment commander and his wingman to get to the AEW&C bird. Their tactics weren't designed to get fighter kills but to facilitate the killing of a force multiplier.

Different tactics towards a much larger goal than Mirage and Su-30 kills, which at this point in the war mean little to the likes of Feng, Chen and Wencang.

jamwal wrote:Considering from Chinese viewpoint, any commander will think of it as a too high price to pay as you have mentioned earlier. But of course, if the motive was to punch a hole in Indian radar coverage for some other attack then things make some sense. Waiting for next batch of posts to make things clearer.


Bliss to wait and see. :wink:
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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 03 Jan 2013 02:10

asbchakri wrote:Vivek, since this scenario is comong to a close, can you start on a different scenario in the 2018-2020 time frame, this time with a 2 way attack started by Pakistan and joined later by China (maybe supported by Nepal and Burma). This time frame could be good with the arrival of

1. Rafel available in small numbers
2. complete batch of SU-30 MKI's
3. Vik along with IAC
4. Kolkata Class all 3
5. Project 28 Class all 4+??
6. Modified Krivak III Class All 3
7. Project 17 all 3
8. Project 17A -1 or 2
9. 6 Scorpene
10. Nirbhay in good numbers along with Brahamos
11. Agni V in active duty(ICBM and SLBM)
12. ABM deployed

and much more. Hope it is not too much to ask for. :D :D


Not at all saar. As Manish just mentioned: that was intended to be my next scenario. Around 2025, to be exact. Wanted to take a futuristic look at the nature of combat in the subcontinent where all of the above are deployed as both sides want them to be. Let the murderous mayhem begin! :twisted:

But that will come after I get the current book out in stores and on amazon etc for you guys to read. So another few weeks.

FYI: I am also converting my first scenario (from 2007) into a cleaned up novel. This was the one involving Myanmar for those of you who remember. I am mentally expanding on that for now but will plan on putting that book as the second one to come out six months from the release of this first one.

P.S.: Nice to see you back on BRF sir.

-Vivek

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby asbchakri » 03 Jan 2013 02:34

and much more. Hope it is not too much to ask for. :D :D

Not at all saar. As Manish just mentioned: that was intended to be my next scenario. Around 2025, to be exact. Wanted to take a futuristic look at the nature of combat in the subcontinent where all of the above are deployed as both sides want them to be. Let the murderous mayhem begin! :twisted:

But that will come after I get the current book out in stores and on amazon etc for you guys to read. So another few weeks.

FYI: I am also converting my first scenario (from 2007) into a cleaned up novel. This was the one involving Myanmar for those of you who remember. I am mentally expanding on that for now but will plan on putting that book as the second one to come out six months from the release of this first one.

P.S.: Nice to see you back on BRF sir.

-Vivek


Thanks Vivek sir looking forward to that. Will that scenario include just China or Pakis or both.

2025 wil means there might be a lot of changes in force projections and strategies of the world powers (Russa, US) and also strategic alignment of various countires (Japan, Australi, India, Vietnam...) against China. Will these factor in your scenarios?. As of now we just see a 1-1 battle with a major focus on the in depth details of the scenarios, which we would still want you to carry on, but can we broaden the aspects of war with the others comming into play. What i meant is will this just be another border war or will the recent issues with China's aggeressions on various island claims in the south china sea be also part of this scenario. Also with US vacating Afganistan and the Jihadi powers strenghthening again, that could also be a major factor in this conflict.

2025 is 13 years away a lot could change :D

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby RamaY » 03 Jan 2013 02:49

^

Of course a lot will change by the time this scenario ends. By Shiva's blessing Tibet could become an independent country with few deployed nuclear weapons :D

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Misraji » 03 Jan 2013 02:51

Can't wait for the attack by the Malacca Su-30's..

What is it? What is it? What is it?
An attack on Yulin Naval base?

--Ashish

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Singha » 03 Jan 2013 07:31

The mirages with only super530 taking out 11 flankers for zero losses looked unrealistic.

Even if it were the upg mirages with mica and rdy3 , they would have a hard fight on their hands assuming ew were also upg to icms.mk3 . Detection ranges would balance put flanker has bigger radar but bigger rcs too. In red flag fights the m2kc was able to hold its own against the f15c albeit it has less payload and range.....mirage can match the f15c in top speed and is faster than flankers. it has a huge climb rate in a2a config. faster and higher the fight gets it is at ease.

I would rather you send the ocu training detachment of 6 rafales led by veteran instructor pilots to join the battle north from bangalore to bagdogra....armed with mica, rbe2aa , osf2 and spectra mk2 ofcourse ....they were on the ground in charbatia preparing for a secretive deep strike mission when this punitive dragon thing came along. :twisted:
Last edited by Singha on 03 Jan 2013 08:14, edited 1 time in total.

vivek_ahuja
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Posts: 2223
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 16:58

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 03 Jan 2013 08:10

Okay okay fine! Geez! I get it. I will fix it. :((

One of these days I am going to let you, Jamwal and the others talk to the No. 7 squadron pilots directly and explain to them exactly why they cannot take out ten flankers in a furball! :mrgreen:

Why, you ask? Because sure as hell I ain't gonna be the guy to tell them that! 8)

Anyway, jokes apart, me returning to writing scenario. Be back soon with more stuff.

-V.

RamaY
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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby RamaY » 03 Jan 2013 08:42

Best approach to calm down nagging babies is to tell them a story :)

nash
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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby nash » 03 Jan 2013 09:39

asbchakri wrote:1. Rafel available in small numbers
2. complete batch of SU-30 MKI's
3. Vik along with IAC
4. Kolkata Class all 3
5. Project 28 Class all 4+??
6. Modified Krivak III Class All 3
7. Project 17 all 3
8. Project 17A -1 or 2
9. 6 Scorpene
10. Nirbhay in good numbers along with Brahamos
11. Agni V in active duty(ICBM and SLBM)
12. ABM deployed

and much more. Hope it is not too much to ask for. :D :D


Yes it is much more and by 2025 list will be longer

1.may be IAC2
2.Shourya/sagarika in good numbers
3.SSBn/SSGN/SSN
4.Hypersonic Brahmos
5.our munna Tejas, in MkII/MkIII -- will be ready to kick some .
6.PAKFA/FGFA
7.Arjun-MkII(further version) in good numbers, hopefully
8.whole lot of new missiles in every category - Akash-2,Astra,AD1,AD2,Prahaar,NAG,K-3,K-4,etc,etc
9.number of UAV and UCAV, these will play major role in all future wars.
10.F-INSAS
11.AWACS-I
12.P-75I
13.Artillery - towed , wheeled, track

IAF should have its full strength of 42 sqd, may be more - 45-50Sqd.
IN have its sanction strength -150 ship.
IA will have total new look with F-INSAS,artillery,AAC(Dhruv-LCH).

IRNSS with GLONAS will provide all time live feed of whole thing from pakistan to china.

and many more .. vivkeji have lot to do .. :)


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