Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

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SriniY
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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby SriniY » 26 Oct 2008 14:04

Singha wrote:can the Mi-26 really lift the huge Tatra + 3 brahmos even at sea level? sounds like a really bulky load to me that
can swing wildly too.
the trick to moving huge vehicles up mountain roads is to have a articulated trailer rather than a one-piece.
and steering on all the front axles also helps (some construction and garbage pickup types I see in
NYC have that)


The cargo load of an Mi-26 is about 20 tons at sea level. Considering that a Brahmos weighs around 3 tons each, that is 9 tons for the missiles themselves. Then the TATRA truck ( according to wiki) weights 10 tons upwards. I highly doubt the Mi-26 can carry this.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_mehta » 26 Oct 2008 15:28

how about transporting them separately , ie 10 ton and 9 tons..........

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby jamwal » 26 Oct 2008 20:30

Mihir.D wrote:
jamwal wrote:
Rahul M wrote:check the br monitor.


Thank you Rahul jee
Found it.


If you don't mind, which issue ?


Here

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... index.html

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Mihir.D » 26 Oct 2008 23:33


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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby sunny_s » 27 Oct 2008 17:06

vivek sir..the chinese are eagerly waitin for our diwali firework..let us not dissapoint them,let their be FIRE :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Sudhanshu » 27 Oct 2008 21:09

I am pressing F5(refresh) button every half an hour in anticipation of new post :(

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 28 Oct 2008 10:03

SriniY wrote:
Singha wrote:can the Mi-26 really lift the huge Tatra + 3 brahmos even at sea level? sounds like a really bulky load to me that
can swing wildly too.
the trick to moving huge vehicles up mountain roads is to have a articulated trailer rather than a one-piece.
and steering on all the front axles also helps (some construction and garbage pickup types I see in
NYC have that)


The cargo load of an Mi-26 is about 20 tons at sea level. Considering that a Brahmos weighs around 3 tons each, that is 9 tons for the missiles themselves. Then the TATRA truck ( according to wiki) weights 10 tons upwards. I highly doubt the Mi-26 can carry this.


The answer to that is as below:
vivek_mehta wrote:how about transporting them separately , ie 10 ton and 9 tons..........


The Launch canisters are separately transported. Below I have attached a chart for the Mi-26 performance versus altitude from my analysis for the Tibet war thread. Check the earlier pages of that thread for more details on the problem setup. Not also that Dirang is in the rough range of 6000 ft MSL.

Image

-Vivek

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 28 Oct 2008 10:06

THE SKIES OVER LADDAKH
INDIA
DAY 3 + 1200 HRS (L)


Now...now...now! Khurana thought, and sure enough, the R/T squawked: “This is CLAW-ONE to CLAW squadron: bring the birds about!”

Khurana and his flight pulled the control stick to the left and then backwards to conduct a tight formation turn to the left and head back out on reciprocal bearing that would bring them face to face with the Chinese fighters coming south towards the LAC. Sure enough, the dozens of green squares that had been at the edge of his HUD display now jerked back into the centre with his R-77s trying to achieve a lock on the lead most Chinese SU-27 within his reach. He knew the others on his either side were doing the same as well.

Time ticked by as Khurana waited for the lead most SU-27s to enter the extreme range of his R-77s...


EAGLE-EYE ONE
SOUTHERN LADDAKH
DAY 3 + 1205 HRS (L)


The skies were busy all right, but the numbers weren’t right. There were over thirty Chinese SU-27s attempting to make what was in fact an alpha strike on the first day of the war. On the other side were fourteen Indian Mig-29s from CLAW squadron and two groups of SU-30MKIs of eight and four each. The latter group was currently not even configured for heavy long range aerial battles as they headed south after completing their ALCM launch missions against the Chinese anti-air system in the Aksai Chin. And even that group of eight SU-30MKIs was actually the only defence the Phalcon had until further fighters scrambling northwards could take position.

What reinforcements CLAW squadron could count on were either still on the way northwards or being scrambled to face off the four PAF F-16s now heading to the LOC on the western front. The MC on board the Phalcon who was coordinating the Indian side of the Air War over Laddakh grumbled as he realized that the Pakistanis were playing their part to assist the Chinese without firing a shot: they were diverting the Indian resources at a time when the latter needed those most. In practical terms it would have been much easier to divert the fourteen Mig-29s to swat the four odd F-16s out of the sky before taking on the Chinese, but that would open up another front in a war where the Indian side was struggling to get under control because of previous political restrictions that had allowed the Chinese to gain strategic surprise.

So for the moment CLAW squadron was alone in its battle against the Chinese SU-27s as it bought time for the Indian Air Force to deploy in strength...

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 28 Oct 2008 11:01

THE SKIES OVER LADDAKH
INDIA
DAY 3 + 1230 HRS (L)


The audio tune changed the moment lock-on was achieved and sure enough, a diamond square positioned itself inside the earlier green square to indicate the target acquisition on the leading Chinese SU-27. Khurana now flipped open the launch button on the control stick as he waited for the squadron leader to give the command. That command arrived a few seconds later:

“CLAW-ONE to CLAW squadron. Engage! Engage! Engage!”

Khurana depressed the button and felt the aircraft get lighter a second before the blinding flash of rocket motor ignition appeared from the front and below the nose of his aircraft. Then there was another release and a few seconds later Khurana was tracking the thin white smoke trails against the bright blue skies through his HUD as his two missiles streaked at targets still beyond visual range represented only by two small green rectangles. He noticed the dozen other trails left and right of his own that were heading the same way as CLAW squadron engaged the enemy.

The Chinese were just as quick to reciprocate. Thirty Chinese R-77s headed in the opposite direction of the twenty eight Indian R-77s. The game of chicken was on...

The screeching audio warning tone lit up in the cockpits of the Indian Mig-29s as the threats were detected. But no one broke formation. No one could; not if there was to be any hope of their missile hitting a SU-27 at such long ranges. This was a game of nerves. With both sets of fighters now less than a hundred kilometres away and closing in on each other at a closure rate of two thousand kilometres an hour, the time to visual contact was less than two minutes. For the missiles streaking at high mach numbers, the closure rate meant a time line of seconds. Such was the nature of modern air combat.

A few seconds later the time came to break formation and dive for safety before the incoming Chinese missiles wiped CLAW squadron from the skies over Laddakh. Ever the alert warrior, the CO was on the R/T in sync with Khurana’s own thoughts:

“CLAW-ONE to CLAW Squadron: Evasive manoeuvres! Break!”

Khurana and his flight immediately dived for cover just as the Chinese R-77 trails were spotted at the extreme edge of the horizon. The only safety lay within the peaks of the Laddakh ranges below. Khurana pushed the throttle all the way forward and clicked into afterburner that bumped his aircraft at a whole new level of acceleration with a large push that he felt within his own body. Fuel conservation be damned, the first priority was to live!

The snow clad mountains now occupied the entire front view through the HUD as the aircraft dived for the hills. It took but a second for the hills to appear big enough to prompt Khurana to pull back on the control stick and be crushed into his seat as the aircraft pulled level below the maximum level peaks in the region. That was good news in that despite the advancement in radars, they could not see through solid rocks. Despite that Khurana was punching put loads of chaff as his aircraft streaked within the peaks below. The audio warning was screeching continuously now as missiles were all over the skies above. Unit coherence had been lost and now it was every pilot for himself until the missile threat dissipated as each missile ran out of fuel.

In all the frantic seconds of flying Khurana had lost track of the missile that must have been aimed for him. There was no way to know among the chaos of the skies above. He could see the odd Mig-29 from his squadron as others like him were doing exactly what he was doing. There was no way to know even if their own missiles had claimed any Chinese SU-27s or not. By now the threat level was reducing to the level that Khurana remembered that he was still on afterburner! He pulled the throttle back and clicked it through the afterburner shutdown to feel the aircraft make lesser noise and become slower. Khurana also realized that he had been on afterburner for a long time now and the Mig-29 was not exactly a high endurance fighter. He checked the fuel indicator to show that he still had fuel left for re-entering combat. It was time to do that now...

He pulled back on the control stick that pitched up the nose of the Mig-29 sharply and quickly brought him above the peaks and into the clear blue skies south of the Karakoram peaks. Khurana immediately checked the radar display to find the disposition of friendly and enemy fighters but there seemed to be a clutter all around. He then heard a friendly tune in his ears:
“CLAW-TWO, this is EAGLE-EYE-ONE. Single bandit at 0300, Relative. Range twenty kilometres and closing. Breaking peak cover. Out”

As the R/T switched off, Khurana was glad to see the Phalcon was still in control of the situational awareness that he was struggling to get a hold on. But that didn’t matter now. All he knew was that a Chinese pilot like himself had also evaded a missile aimed at him and had broken cover to see what the situation was. Khurana flipped his aircraft to the right and pulled back on the control stick to bring the Chinese SU-27 within the centre of the HUD display. The green square was immediately followed by a smaller diamond one and Khurana depressed the button that sent his third R-77 into the enemy fighter. This time the initiative was with Khurana who detected no counter-attack by the Chinese pilot who was clearly not aware of the situation around him. Several seconds later Khurana did in fact detect a Chinese R-77 launch heading towards him but it was too late.

His R-77 slammed into the SU-27 head on and blotted the latter out of the sky in a ball of fire. Back inside the cockpit Khurana noticed that the small green square fluctuated for a few seconds before it disappeared...

Score one!

But the battle wasn’t over. The single Chinese R-77 was still heading towards him albeit without the SU-27 radar helping it. Khurana again dived for the peaks below but this time he had barely reached the level below the peaks when the threat level reduced to indicate the R-77 had lost track and wandered off...

It was at this time that Khurana’s eye caught hold of a massive orange flash directly above his cockpit. He jerked his head up and saw the flaming debris of a Mig-29 falling out of the sky while two others were busy in a classic within visual range dogfight with several SU-27s a thousand feet above. It was time to enter the fray and assist his outnumbered colleagues.
Khurana pulled back on the stick yet again but this time carefully pulled the aircraft as he entered the raging air battle from below, hoping to catch a chinese pilot by surprise. He switched now to the short range R-60 missiles that were cued to his HMD. The nature of the audio tune now changed as the R-60 seekers looked for a target. Khurana finally found the large size of a Sukhoi with a red star on it and headed for him from behind and below. It was a classic position for a shot.

A few seconds later the missile left the pylons and headed quickly towards the SU-27 before hitting the port engine from below. The problem was, the R-60 had a very small warhead that wasn’t equipped for taking down heavy fighters with its 3.5 kilogram warhead. And sure enough, the SU-27’s port engine flamed out even as metallic debris fell out through the exhaust nozzle but the aircraft kept flying.

Khurana’s eyebrows went up as well as his respect for the Sukhoi company to see the SU-27 still flying. But the latter was crippled. Khurana now switched his weapon system to GUNS and moved in for the kill. As his aircraft jittered with burst fire from his cannon, the skies in front of him were lined with tracers that headed out and slammed into the underside of SU-27 with shuddering hits before the aircraft was enveloped in a massive ball of fire...

Khurana had to pull his aircraft frantically to avoid flying though the flaming debris and he barely managed to skim though the smoke at the side of the fireball and streaked back into the blue skies above with a evil smile within his oxygen mask...

Score two!

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Nitesh » 28 Oct 2008 11:12

You made the day vivek.

Diwali crackers are away. Happy diwali to all here in BR.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Rahul M » 28 Oct 2008 11:21

perhaps the chinese would move to pl-12 in the timeline you have mentioned. it has reportedly already entered service.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Drevin » 28 Oct 2008 11:48

nice going vivekji. it seems you are a mig29 fan afterall :) I liked the part where you show respect for sukhoi designers/manufacturers before going for a gun kill with the the mig29. The part where the indian migs hide behind the mountains is pure evil :twisted:

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Mihir.D » 30 Oct 2008 18:54

Hey Vivek,

Can we expect some MRCA action also as part of this scenario ? I would love to see the Rafale in action against the commies.

Cheers,
MD.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Hari Sud » 01 Nov 2008 19:11

While awaiting Vivek's next post, here is something on India-China airforces. Chinese sources believe that India holds a massive air superiority over China.

Andre has been writing on Chinese military for years. He reads China's mind and their distinct disadvantages.

India holds air power superiority on border with China


By ANDREI CHANGPublished: Aug. 26, 2008 at 11:49 AM

http://www.upi.com/Security_Industry/20 ... 219765795/


HONG KONG, Aug. 26 (UPI) -- In the event of a conflict with China, Indian military units stationed along the eastern part of the Indian-Chinese border could make full use of the 13 military and civilian airports in the frontier region.

Helicopters and transport planes could quickly deliver troops to the scene of the conflict, and fighter aircraft could use these airports for take-off and landing.

Among all these airport facilities, the Tezpur Airport has the most modern, full-fledged installations. It is here that eight Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters of the Indian air force are due to be positioned in the next few months. The Amritsar Air Base is very close to the Indian-Pakistani border, but it is also adjacent to the western part of the Indian-Chinese border. A total of 29 reinforced aircraft hangars have been built at this airport.

The Gwalior Airport south of India's capital, New Delhi, is the gateway for the Indian air force's strategic bombers. The No. 1 and No. 7 Nuclear Attack Squadrons -- armed with French-built Dassault Mirage 2000H/TH fighters -- are stationed at this air base. Several Jaguar attack aircraft also have been seen fielded at this airport, which has very sturdy aircraft hangars.

The Gwalior Air Base is less than 340 miles from the Indian-Tibetan border and about 310 miles from the Indian-Pakistani border. This indicates that India pays equal attention to China and Pakistan in deploying its nuclear attack power.

The No. 24 and No. 20 Squadrons, stationed at the Lohegaon Air Base near Pune, are armed with Sukhoi Su-30K and Su-30MKI fighters. The No. 20 Squadron received its first Su-30MKI fighters between 2000 and 2004. The earlier model Su-30K fighters, received from Russia in 1997 and 1998, are scheduled to be returned to Russia in exchange for a new batch of 18 Su-30MKIs.

The two squadrons are now equipped with 39 Sukhoi Su-30MKI Phase I/II fighters. It looks as if the Su-30MKI fighters, soon to be deployed at the Tezpur Air Base, will also be Phase II Su-30MKIs assembled in India.

The No. 20 Squadron is the best fighter unit of the Indian air force, equivalent to the 9th Regiment of the Chinese People's Liberation Army air force's No. 3 Division. It is based in the southern part of the region, apparently positioned as the air force's strategic reserve unit.

Yet oddly, no reinforced aircraft hangars have been built for the Sukhoi Su-30MKIs at this airport. Instead, the aircraft are stationed on an open apron. Considering the hot weather conditions in southern India, the reason for this is unclear. There are also several Jaguar attack aircraft based here.

The extensive buildup of airports in the border region, the performance features of the aircraft deployed there and the capability to quickly project troops in the area show that New Delhi's apprehensions about a threat from the north are quite strong. Still, India now has a clear advantage over China in terms of preparedness for a conflict in this region.
Last edited by Rahul M on 02 Nov 2008 16:23, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited font size.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby ovein » 02 Nov 2008 16:09

Common Vivek. We are waiting for the next post eagarly. great to see if two is the highest Kill for the Claws

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby SGupta » 02 Nov 2008 21:38

If prior Chinese thinking holds, China will not start a war with India unless the outcome will be in Chinas favor and is certain. The added issue this time will be some temporary loss in economic output. Temporary simply because the economic tie up with the West is tight.

As far as any conflict scenario goes there will be many factors but I wonder what India's ability to damage Chinese economic output is and if a stated goal of making economic zones legitimate war targets would make sense. The Chinese are certainly doing it with their string of pearls to strangle India. Then of course India would have to develop capability to do this and the Babus would get in the way.

In terms of a future scenario and a 30,000' meter strategic view this might make an interesting backdrop.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Mihir.D » 04 Nov 2008 16:41

Vivek,

This is too long a break man................
C'mon give us our next installment man :)

Cheers.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Hari Sud » 04 Nov 2008 17:16

Do not push Vivek.

He has to think thru the next pahse of action.

Moreover, he has studies to take care.

Instead of pushing Vivek, start writing your own. It will be a welcomed break to him as well as to the readers.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby prabir » 04 Nov 2008 17:17

If prior Chinese thinking holds, China will not start a war with India unless the outcome will be in Chinas favor and is certain. The added issue this time will be some temporary loss in economic output. Temporary simply because the economic tie up with the West is tight.

Very correct. They have ample clients to cause pin pricks to India (Burma, Srilanka,Nepal,Pakistan etc.). However, India should also create its own clients. Please note that China is a country where freedom is at premium. It can implode from within if the right stimulants are provided by West, India, Japan

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 04 Nov 2008 21:06

I apologize for the delay guys, but have been buried in work for the last several days. I should be able to get the next post out later today.

Thanks.

-Vivek

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Mihir.D » 05 Nov 2008 11:25

vivek_ahuja wrote:I apologize for the delay guys, but have been buried in work for the last several days. I should be able to get the next post out later today.

Thanks.

-Vivek



No Problem . Take ur time.
Just don't forget u have ur die hard fans waiting here.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby zef » 05 Nov 2008 14:42

Vivek, this is my first post on thie site but have been following each and every post of yours. Please accept my praises and congratulations for the briliant and true to life like writings.

Bravo Bravo !!

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Hari Sud » 05 Nov 2008 18:08

While waiting for Vivek, read the following.

Full text on UPI Asia website

http://www.upiasia.com/Security/2008/10 ... sion/3967/

China’s potential for military aggression
By Hari Sud

Column: Abroad ViewPublished: November 04, 2008
Watch this writer


Toronto, ON, Canada, — Can China risk a major war in Asia or even a military adventure beyond its borders? The answer is no. Why then is China building its military machine at an annual cost of more than US$60 billion? The answer: to intimidate its neighbors.
Does the military build-up reflect misplaced Chinese reasoning that India can be dismissed as too orthodox to be taken seriously? The Chinese publication Global Times implied exactly that on Sept. 16. The answer is that China, in the last 50 years, has never taken India seriously.

Today, the Chinese military is a hugely expanded and modernized force, much stronger than what the United States faced in Korea in 1950, or India encountered in 1962, or the Russians faced in 1967 at the Ussuri River.

China’s US$60 billion plus military expenditure supports the 2.4 million People’s Liberation Army, 300,000 air force personnel and 200,000 servicemen in the navy. In addition, about US$30 billion a year is spent on a military industrial complex in central China, which is at the center of its three-tier modernization program. Although the military expenditure appears very large, it supports a very large manpower base and therefore is average.

China keeps about 1 million men on its eastern seaboard across from Taiwan, 200,000 at the Vietnamese border and about the same number in Tibet opposite India. Around 600,000 are based on the northern border to confront any Russian aggression and the balance lie in central China as reserves. In the past two decades, China’s military logistics have benefitted from greatly improved communications systems.

Although China appears to possess an intimidating force, it is simply too many military boots deployed across the country. In comparison, Taiwan with U.S. help, Russia with its own military power and India with Israeli, Russian and U.S. hardware are not sitting idly waiting for the Chinese to walk over them. Their combined military strength far exceeds China’s. Their military hardware, excluding nuclear weapons and strategic missiles, is on par or better than China’s. So China cannot pose a grave danger to them ...........

Go to UPIAsia website....

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby jahaju » 05 Nov 2008 18:09

Indian Express
Another airfield reopened on China border
Manu Pubby
Posted: Nov 05, 2008 at 2355 hrs IST

Delhi, November 4 : India has reopened another strategic airstrip along its unresolved border with China in Eastern Ladakh that will give it the capability to rapidly induct troops in the region.
The Fukche Advanced Landing Ground (ALG) was reactivated on Tuesday morning with the IAF landing a AN 32 medium transport aircraft on the newly refurbished airstrip.

The ALG, located at an altitude of 4,200 meters, is barely three kilometers away from the Line of Actual Control (LAC). It was being used as a helicopter base by the Armed Forces and had not seen fixed wing aircraft operations since the 1962 Sino-Indian war .

The reopening of the Fukche airbase comes months after the Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO) airfield, situated in the same region near the Karakoram pass, was reactivated by the Air Force earlier this year.

While the DBO is the highest airbase in the world and was reactivated for maintaining supplies to the troops posted on the border, Fukche is the second highest landing ground in the world.
IAF says that the airstrip will help carry out humanitarian missions in the region that is known to be prone to earthquakes and would also be used to promote tourism in the area. However, analysts believe that the airfield is a part of a series of steps being undertaken to improve connectivity along the China border.

India has been reviving advanced landing grounds and helicopter bases along the border from Ladakh to the North-East. Armed Forces have conducted status reports on reactivating airbases after directives from the PMO to promote tourism and to increase the reach of the army along the border.

“The airfield will be used for humanitarian relief work and evacuation in case of natural calamities,” Air Marshal P K Barbora, Commander-in-Chief of the Western Air Command, told The Indian Express.

Work on the third major airfield in Ladakh along the Sino-India border, the Chushul Advanced Landing Ground, located at a height of over 5,000 m, is still to commence and the ALG is not likely to be reactivated in the near future.


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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 06 Nov 2008 09:27

THE SKIES OVER LADDAKH
INDIA
DAY 3 + 1250 HRS (L)


The skies were now lined with bursts of tracers, white hot falling flares and corkscrewed smoke trails from missiles long past having used up their fuels and either having hit their targets or lost track. And then there were the small smoke columns of burning debris falling against the blue skies as the dozens of original Indian and Chinese fighters neared exhaustion level in numbers, fuel and weapons...

The sudden flight of a dozen yellow tracers two dozen meters above his head caused Khurana to jerk his head to the left even as he pulled his control stick to the right, forcing him from breaking off his slashing attack on a SU-27 pulling high g’s below him. There was another of his intended victim’s buddies behind him now who was as intent on killing Khurana as Khurana had been in killing the former’s comrade. With crews from both sides having seen their comrades blown to smithereens in the deadly skies above Laddakh, it was all personal now...

Even as Khurana was pulling his aircraft down into a accelerating dive towards the hills below with the red star SU-27 behind him doing the same, he was scanning two other potential dangers in front of his eyes. The HUD was showing that the fuel level was getting dangerously low with combat manoeuvres requiring excessive and uncontrolled use of engine reheat. It was not all the way into the red yet, but it was getting there to the level that Khurana was being forced to keep an eye on it. The Mig-29 was not a high endurance fighter designed for extended combat. And it showed. On the other hand, Khurana realized that the guys in the SU-27s had no such worries about fuel.

Secondly, the HUD display was indicating no remaining air-to-air missiles save for a single R-77 hanging off the port wing which was completely useless in the merge, which was what it was now. Only a hundred odd rounds of gun ammo remained in the Mig-29 now while Khurana had seen the half a dozen or more weapons still hanging from some of the SU-27s in the skies around him. It was now getting to the point that the Indians were in serious risk of being outgunned and outnumbered in this battle followed soon after by being out flown when their engines flamed out for lack of fuel.

And we cannot disengage either...Khurana thought as he flipped his aircraft yet again to evade another slashing pass from the SU-27 behind him with the latter’s tracers streaking by the cockpit. He punched off another round of flares and realized that sooner or later that would disappear too. Khurana was having difficulty losing his attacker who was clearly an experienced pilot and not a rookie like his earlier two kills of the day...

“TWO, this is SEVEN, I have the bugger on your tail in my sights. Break on my mark. Let’s see if I can shove an R-60 up this guy’s jetpipe. Break left, NOW!” the R/T squawked, and Khurana didn’t hesitate as he flipped his aircraft right and a second later the SU-27 pilot did the same, or at least attempted to, before a R-60 slammed right into his port engine exhaust. This time, however, the aircraft disappeared into a ball of fire as the primary fuel cells exploded. Khurana felt the jolt from the shockwave not more than a few hundred meters behind him even as a flash as bright as the sun appeared from the rear horizon. He jerked his head to see the other Mig-29 that had saved his life appear from behind the earthbound fireball and streak upwards into the blue skies.

“TWO to SEVEN: thanks! That’s one more down! Let’s see who else is left out there!” Khurana shouted over the R/T even as he let out a momentary breath of relief. But the battle was not over.

“SEVEN here, I see three bad guys and two of ours at 3 O’Clock high. Can’t find any other friendlies though...”

Damn! What the hell happened to the rest of CLAW? Khurana thought a fraction of a second before the R/T squawked again:

“CLAW-TWO, this is EAGLE-EYE. We show inbound J-10s on our scopes. Ten bandits from Kashgar heading south for the Karakoram peaks. Angels twenty, bearing three four zero. Over.”
“EAGLE-EYE-ONE, this is CLAW-TWO. We cannot, repeat cannot engage. We are getting chewed out against what we have here! Requesting priority assistance!

We need help over here right freaking now!”

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 06 Nov 2008 09:28

EAGLE-EYE-ONE
SOUTHERN LADDAKH
INDIA
DAY 3 + 1300 HRS (L)


“Roger, CLAW-TWO. Standby” the flight controller looked back at the MC who in turn walked over to the other flight controllers that had been monitoring the skies in parallel with the first operator but had been tasked with simply keeping an eye on things. CLAW squadron had done the job of buying time for the Indian fighters to deploy in depth to the south. The skies to the south had now piled up with Indian fighters. And although these could not enter the skies near the LAC where Khurana and his men were fighting out the Chinese, they could take over the BARCAP mission around the Phalcon and the tankers, thus relieving the current flight of SU-30s to move further north and join the fight. The MC nodded for the other flight controller to initiate this changeover maneuver with the incoming fighters even as he turned back to the first controller and ordered the release of the SU-30s.

Thirty seconds later the senior flight leader for the eight SU-30s flying shotgun for the Phalcon spoke over the R/T with the rest of his flight in the familiar gruff voice:

“Okay people, it’s time for the big boys to enter the fight. Time to show everyone how this is done.”

A few seconds after that the eight SU-30MKIs punched in the engine reheat in unison and streaked across the skies towards the north...

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Nitesh » 06 Nov 2008 09:42

good to see you back vivek. It was a loooooooooonnnnnnnnnnggggggggg wait

pl make sure they enter fast

“Okay people, it’s time for the big boys to enter the fight. Time to show everyone how this is done.”

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby anirbanbanerjee » 06 Nov 2008 15:49

Thanks Vivek for the posts. Would love to see our boys burn some chini @$$. :D

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Hari Sud » 06 Nov 2008 18:33

Story aside!!!!

Are Chinese capable of launching 30, SU-27 (Post Of October 23rd)then again 10, J-10 (today's post) Akash Chin area airfields?

Possibly not.

Can their AWACS and fuel tankers control so many aircrafts in the frey and not get blown out themselves, if they get too close to the action.

Possibly yes.

Then this battle looks to be more fantasy then real action unfolding.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Sanku » 06 Nov 2008 19:25

Much before Vivek started writing this particular piece; he has posted many detailed analysis of Chinese aircraft airfields and the operational capabilities. As such he has already built the foundation of his story in many threads on Chinese mil watch and else where.

This is all solid stuff; or at least as solid as a open source analyst can get -- you wish to check out the other threads to verify the accuracy of what I say for yourself.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Hari Sud » 06 Nov 2008 21:48

I have been reading Vivek since day one. Oblique references do exist but nothing specific.

To get full Chinese might view you have to read Andre Chiang.

None that I know of are large jet fighter capable airports with tanker and AWACS capability exits in Sinkiang province or in Western Tibet close to Akash Chin. Whatever exists is at 5000-7000 ft elevation which will make taking off with full military load impossible. Smaller airports have short haul transport aircraft capability.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Rahul M » 06 Nov 2008 22:03

andrei chang is frequently extremely unreliable and erroneous.
many a time his reports read like products of PLA disinformation department.
his report on the IAF for example would put even a DDM to shame.
Are Chinese capable of launching 30, SU-27 (Post Of October 23rd)then again 10, J-10 (today's post) Akash Chin area airfields?

Possibly not.

and the argument behind that being ?
Can their AWACS and fuel tankers control so many aircrafts in the frey and not get blown out themselves, if they get too close to the action.

Possibly yes.

Then this battle looks to be more fantasy then real action unfolding.

nowhere have they gone "too close to the action". requesting you to reread and understand the actual scenario.
Oblique references do exist but nothing specific.

sanku is referring to posts outside scenarios thread.
please go through the archives for china military watch thread.

as it happens, vivek happens to be a professional in this matter. he knows what he is talking about better than most of us at any rate.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Sanku » 06 Nov 2008 22:04

Hari Sud wrote:I have been reading Vivek since day one. Oblique references do exist but nothing specific.

To get full Chinese might view you have to read Andre Chiang.


I really don't think you understand of what I am talking of; I am not even talking of THIS thread; there are many other technical thread where the matter has been discussed threadbare the chinese mil watch for one. -- and you should be careful in quoting Chiang as an authority; he is considered a bit like Musharraf out here, a bit like a stale joke.

Ok I see Rahul already posted -- but hey why waste some good typing.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby andy B » 07 Nov 2008 03:23

Hari Sud wrote:Story aside!!!!

Are Chinese capable of launching 30, SU-27 (Post Of October 23rd)then again 10, J-10 (today's post) Akash Chin area airfields?

Possibly not.

Can their AWACS and fuel tankers control so many aircrafts in the frey and not get blown out themselves, if they get too close to the action.

Possibly yes.

Then this battle looks to be more fantasy then real action unfolding.


I thought given the range of the Su30/27 they wont need to launch from near border airfields, agreed that the tankers will need to get close to the border but I still would strongly think that they would be able to maintain quite a distance and be safe.

andrei chang is ala sen gupta in china :rotfl:

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Sudhanshu » 07 Nov 2008 13:44

“Okay people, it’s time for the big boys to enter the fight. Time to show everyone how this is done.”

A few seconds after that the eight SU-30MKIs punched in the engine reheat in unison and streaked across the skies towards the north..


Though this is already super awesome.
:) Just an advice from literary perspective, you could also write this as.. without telling readers that SU-30 were going to enter fight, instead announcing only after some Chinese fighter taken out of sky like hand of god did it for Khurana and his mate. After surprising readers and Khurana you could explain how this was actually done.

Otherwise, we all can easily predict what is going to happen next from now on :)

This was not criticism but an advice, and can be ignored by all means.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 09 Nov 2008 08:48

Sudhanshu wrote:Though this is already super awesome.
:) Just an advice from literary perspective, you could also write this as.. without telling readers that SU-30 were going to enter fight, instead announcing only after some Chinese fighter taken out of sky like hand of god did it for Khurana and his mate. After surprising readers and Khurana you could explain how this was actually done.

Otherwise, we all can easily predict what is going to happen next from now on :)

This was not criticism but an advice, and can be ignored by all means.


Sudhanshu,

Constructive criticism is always welcome as far as I am concerned. Feel free to poke holes or ask questions: that's how we can improve the quality of scenarios on this thread. No issues there whatsoever.

Also, I see your point above, however, as it is happening nowadays, I get the feeling based on reader reviews that every scene I post needs to be backed up with a CONOPS report to avoid it being trashed as fantasy (although I always thought my posts were as detailed as time would allow). Gone are the days when the word "possible" in "possible scenarios" meant anything. In a sense that's a compliment to the thread. On the downside though is the stricter Literary Rules of Engagement ( :roll: ). Any post that seems to have come without a detailed analysis is shoved back up the author's musharaff so fast that he hasn't even had time to close MS Word after posting on BR. So how do you think it would look if I started coming up with magic solutions to scenario battles in the name of suspense? :D

-Vivek
Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 09 Nov 2008 08:54, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 09 Nov 2008 08:49

THE SKIES OVER LADDAKH
INDIA
DAY 3 + 1310 HRS (L
)

“All CLAW elements, break, break, break! Let’s get out of here!” Khurana shouted out over the R/T as the first fuel warning audio tone sounded out in his ears. The squadron had been committed for far too long in a battle far too drawn out. They had received heavy casualties and handed out even worse. But now it was time to leave. Nearly all fighters were out of weapons and now nearly out of fuel, but for all that it was now difficult to spot the enemy in the skies around. And the same went for friendly aircraft as well...

Khurana flipped the aircraft to the side and pulled back on the stick to pull the aircraft out in the opposite direction followed quickly by CLAW-SEVEN, his new found wingman. Three other Mig-29s visible as mere black specks against the blue skies were making similar movements to the south even as all remaining Indian pilots kept a wary eye out for any lurking enemy sukhoi. With ten of the J-10s coming in now from the north and the skies still deadly south of the FDR of the Chinese S-300 belt in the Aksai chin, the results of this drawn out battle were fuzzy at best to those involved. Both sides were now thrusting in fresh fighters, with the Chinese sending in a bunch of J-10s and the Indians sending north a bunch of Su-30s to replace the exhausted first aerial defensive lines. Khurana and his men were now detecting the friendly radar signatures of single Su-30 radar coming north. Khurana smiled to himself when he saw that single radar signature because he knew the J-10 pilots were seeing the same. Only difference was, he knew what was wrong with that picture...

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 09 Nov 2008 09:25

THE SKIES OVER LADDAKH
INDIA
DAY 3 + 1315 HRS (L)


Act-II of the battle of the Laddakh skies was a shadow of the one before it. The SU-27s had hoped to draw out the Indian sukhoi fighters in a critical battle to wrest control of the skies. That effort had been frustrated from an unexpected quarter: CLAW squadron. Now their second line fighters were coming up against the actual Indian first line fighters, and the battle was almost a washout for the Chinese J-10 crews. They passively detected single active Indian sukhoi radar to the south, and were way out of range of the actual engagement zones when the first massive electronic jamming from eight Indian fighters was detected. One sukhoi is capable of painting the targets for others, and the J-10 crews never saw how many of their opponents were stacked up against them until they actually reached within range of their own radars. And this far to the south, the KJ-2000 was also operating at the extreme edge of its detection range.

Even so, when the J-10 radars did go active, they lit up the eight spread out Indian sukhois boring down on them from wide arcs. The jamming interference prevented them from immediately launching their missiles for those crucial seconds during which the Indian sukhois managed to get their rounds off. And at this range, those crucial seconds were everything...

The leading J-10 was blown out of the sky right from the front of the formation of ten it was leading in full view of the other pilots. The red hot shrapnel cut into two other aircrafts even as the others jinked left and right to evade the incoming missiles. Three more J-10s received direct hits in that opening salvo. In return, four J-10s managed to get multiple rounds pickled off moments before a second salvo slammed into their ranks like the scythe of death and wiped off two more J-10s in a single slash. But the losses were not one way, and a single Su-30MKI fell from the sky in a ball of fire as the law of probability caught up with its crew against the swarms of incoming Chinese missiles. The two crewmembers ejected cleanly and were over friendly soil. But for the Chinese crews the battle was already over.

The two remaining J-10s decided to call it a bad day and began punching out clouds of chaff and flares before diving to the east and entering the relative safety of their S-300 kill zones around the Aksai chin. The gruff old flight leader of the Indian sukhois decided to let it go at that: there was no need to lose more of their own in return for chasing a bunch of J-10s. Besides, we will be here if they ever decide to come back...he thought behind his breathing apparatus in the front seat of the cockpit. A moment later he switched R/T over to the Phalcon:

“EAGLE-EYE-ONE, the skies are clear of all things red. Now how about those four F-16s and let’s call it a day?”

“Negative, GRIFFON-ONE. Assume BARCAP positions in place of CLAW. The day isn’t over yet. Out.”
Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 09 Nov 2008 09:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Sudhanshu » 09 Nov 2008 09:30

EAGLE-EYE-ONE, the skies are clear of all things red. Now how about those four F-16s and let’s call it a day?



HAHAHAHAHA :lol: I cannot stop laughing at it. You got great sense of humor Vivek.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Sudhanshu » 09 Nov 2008 09:37

An educated guess, I assume they will send their Su-30 to make field even.


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