Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Shankar » 20 Mar 2009 16:40


Wing commander Latif jumped and ran hard as the scramble alert blared over the underground aircraft shelter. After hostilities breaking out with India this base has been on a constant state of alert but strangely the no strike so far have been mounted specifically against Sargoda till . It was ,Latif knew to good a thing to last long .

Though on OPR to ensure safety the two squadrons have been dispersed into dug out hard shelters in the surrounding hill side quite close to special weapons storage silo an euphemism for nuclear free fall bombs .While this made the aircraft comparatively safe against a sneak long range missile attack also made them some what slow in response to a quick scramble advisory as of today .The taxi track pained greenish brown was almost 5 km from the take off position of both the main runway and it will take him atleast 7 minutes of fast taxi before starting take off roll .

This made the whole flight group vulnerable standing on an exposed taxi track with hot exhaust and engines . Latif cursed the old air marshals who make such silly operatin decisions as he climbed up the aluminum ladder .

- tower – viper lead –request immdediate taxi clearance – over
While waiting for clearance his hand moved fast over the assorted switches and levers as he rushed through a much shortened take off check list ,fortunately his aircraft was already pre flighted ,the taxi clearance came in quickly
- vipe lead – tower –cleared to taxi – no speed restriction –looks like a massive raid –over
- copy that tower – rolling now –over
The eight F-16 s started rolling in tandem and quickly accelerated to the hammer head .

The Pakistan Air Force currently has the Block 15 F-16A/B model in operation, which has an upgraded APG-66 radar that brings it close to the MLU (Mid-life Update) radar technology. The main advantage is the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles if they were ever to be released to the PAF. Furthermore, the radar is capable of sorting out tight formations of aircraft and has a 15%-20% range increase over previous models. All the earlier F-16s were brought up to OCU standards and have received the Falcon UP structural modification package. Currently, Pakistani F-16s typically carry two all-aspect AIM-9L Sidewinders on the wing tip rails along with a pair of AIM-9P-4's on the outermost underwing racks, while the Matra Magic 2 (French counterpart of the Sidewinder) can be carried as well. They also have an important strike role, being capable to deliver Paveway laser-guided bombs. Pakistani F-16s are also capable of firing the French AS-30 laser guided missile. The ALQ-131 pod is carried as ECM protection.

Pakistan was the second nation (after Israel) to use the F-16 in combat. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 in support of the pro-Soviet government in Kabul, which was being hard-pressed by Mujahadeen rebel forces, marked the start of a decade-long occupation. Mujahadeen rebels continued to harass the occupying Soviet military force as well as the forces of the Afghan regime that it was supporting. The war soon spilled over into neighboring Pakistan, with a horde of refugees fleeing to camps across the border in an attempt to escape the conflict. In addition, many of the rebels used Pakistan as a sanctuary from which to carry out forays into Afghanistan, and a steady flow of US-supplied arms were carried into Afghanistan from staging areas in Pakistan near the border. This inevitably resulted in border violations by Soviet and Afghan aircraft attempting to interdict these operations. Between May 1986 and November of 1988, PAF F-16s have claimed to shot down at least eight intruders from Afghanistan. The first three of these (one Su-22, one probable Su-22, and one An-26) were shot down by two pilots from No. 9 Squadron. Pilots of No. 14 Squadron destroyed the remaining five intruders (two Su-22s, two MiG-23s, and one Su-25). Most of these kills were by the AIM-9 Sidewinder, but at least one (a Su-22) was destroyed by cannon fire. Flight Lieutenant Khalid Mamood is credited with three of these kills. At least one F-16 was lost in these battles, this one in an encounter between two F-16s and six Afghan Air Force aircraft on April 29th, 1987. However, the lost F-16 appears to have been an 'own goal', having been hit by a Sidewinder fired by the other F-16. The unfortunate F-16 pilot (Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan) ejected safely.

HAWK EYE FLIGHT –A-50I- PHALCON X1 + 4 X SU-30MKI -0437 HRS -11000 MTR

- sir –aircraft launch alert – 8 falcons taxing to take off position run way 09 –sargoda –estimated time for take off 2 minutes
- very well –keep close watch tell me when they start take off roll
- blue death sigma – we have a long range missile strike mission for you – do you copy
- copy hawk eye – blue death lead – standing by for long range missile launch
- blue death flight – 8 falcons on runway – target co ordinates ----- launch in 60 seconds – you are weapons free only on this target – give a 2 degree spread to cover the runway and anti defenses around – you are cleared to active –over
- going active hawk eye –blue death lead – distance to target 110 km and closing-speed 2100 – changing course to 018 –altitude 4000 meters –over
- copy that blue death flight –cleared to descend to 4000 meter and heading 018 –the first falcon is ready for take off – you are weapons free –over
- copy weapons free – have target locked – standby for weapon launch
- Sir the falcons have started their take off run – looks like they are doing a formation take off in pairs – 4 have reached V1 – rest have just started rolling
- Blue death lead –hawk eye – launch weapons now –over
- Launch weapons – copy – 3 2 1 –weapon launched –hawk eye – time to impact 2.2 minutes


Each fo the flankers dropped a single KH 59 ME dropped clear of the centre line pylons ,pushed out by a small hydraulic plunger into the slipstream . Exactly 3.5 seconds after separation from its mother aircraft the microprocessor triggered a tiny electronic signal to close the pyro based rocket ignition circuit connected to rockets own batter powered circuit and the solid motor ignited with a blinding flash and thunder clap noise . Flying at just under the speed of sound the missiles carrying a mix of fragmentation and shaped charge high explosive war head arced through the dar sky on tail of yellowish orange fire and approached the pre determined target in a shallow turning dive through a hail of anti aircraft gun fire and randomly fired anti air craft fire . By the time they reached the runway and exploded 4 of the falcons have already taken off and the 5 th one was already rotating . The rest three still runway was just gone as the thousands of tiny shrapnel’s ripped through their thin skin and their live engines. Three fire balls erupted on the sky .The effect of the KH 59 s were more horrific on the anti aircraft gunners manning the battery of guns as both end of the runway .Most of them were shred to pieces as they kept on firing at the unseen enemy.

-blue death sigma –lead – hawk eye –five repeat five falcons in air – turning into intercept course – range 70 km – speed 600 kmph- altitude – 900 meters –take them out
- copy that hawk eye – understand weapons free on this target- engaging now –over
- blue death sigma 2 3 4 – I am taking the lead pair – wind you take the other two -3 and 4 stay in stand by mode
Squadron leader Bhandari smoothly turned into the attacking enemy ,who was still trying to climb to a respectable altitude and clicked open the plastic cover of fire button as he moved the power setting to max after burner for a classic head on active radar shot . The mission computer checked the targets and automatically assigned threat priority the one closest being assigned highest threat classification .
The SHOOT prompt came the HUD few seconds later – range to target 63 km -59 -53 km
Bhandari did not hesitate as he calmly squeezed the button four times and one by one the 4 R-77 dropped free ,lit their tails and raced forward to the incoming falcons .Bhandari kept the radar lock but reduced power by coming off the after burner as he eye balled the missiles to perfect beyond visual shot .The digital clock showed time to impact at 46 seconds .Bhandari quickly selected R-73 as first of the missiles hit home and one of the target flags on his radar screen went followed quickly by the second .

-hawk eye – blue death sigma lead –splash two falcons
- blue death sigma two –take your shot –now
Four more R-77 came off the aircraft and raced forward .This time they were not that effective as the falcons have achieved combat speed and altitude . The falcons switched on their powerful jammers and turned outward leaving behind a dozen chaff bundles .Only one of the four missiles found the mark
- hawk eye –blue death sigma two –splash one falcon
- copy that blue death one and two – your kills are on record in color –good hunting – now close and take out the rest – we have a large package incoming.
The eight flankers once again lit their afterburner and raced forward .About the same time the first of the SAM s leapt of a concealed launcher and started climbing directly towards the flanker flight on a pillar of white smoke and fire .The radar warning receivers blipped shrilly and the flankers broke formation just like in an air show in a shower of chaff and flare.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Nitesh » 20 Mar 2009 16:50

poor guys didn't have chace to even reach to fighting level :evil: :evil:

wing commander chaterjee's wish is getting fulfilled

He hoped the fancy flyboys in fancy sukhois will do their job right.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Shankar » 21 Mar 2009 15:48


Wing commander chaterjee adjusted the throttle setting to exactly 80% full military power and made the aircraft perfectly level as the moving map display configured on the multi function display showed the flight approaching pakistans most well defended airspace .He could easily follow the air battle raging over sargoda and knew all the falcons are still not down but he had few options ,aborting the mission at this stage was not one of them
The encrypted channel came alive with raspy voice of air battle commander

- alpha zulu flight – come t heading 352 –make speed 800 –altitude 3000 meters – you are on stand by for special weapon release in pre detrmined sequence –strike plan Charlie delta-over
- hawk eye –alpha zuly lead –turning to 352 – making altitude 3000 meters – special weapon ready for release in sequence – 30 second separation –over
- alpha zulu 2 thru 14 standby for weapon release
- alpha zulu 2 thru 14 –release weapon on my command 3 2 1 now
One by one the mig 27s ,the first 14 on the 28 bird flight upped the nose and started releasing massive but light weight chaff bomb , a some what up graded version of mk 129 bombs used in Vietnam by USAF. As each bomb was dropped , atiny explosive charge opened the outer case containing the thousands of 2 inch long gold coated glass fibre/polyester pieces which started coming down slowly along the pre determined ingress corridor .

All SAM and triple A radars went white in an instant .The missile shooters could not get a lock on any aircraft in the flying over 3000 meters and triple A guns lost lock and went on auto reset mode .For about 0 plus minutes the approach to Sargoda was safe
- alpha zulu 14 thru 18 – hawk eye you are weapons free – make altitude 5000 meters – target runway and taxi way – good luck
The four Mig 27 s on the next wave accelerated quickly past 1500 kmph and dived for the runway intersection ,as they crossed the runway perimeter – they started releasing their dirty bombs dilled with hundreds and hundreds of tungsten pieces on the ultra clean runway and taxi way surface in less than 3 minutes the whole airbase complex was too dangerous to carry out any form of air operation .Two falcons still tried to use the taxi way for emergency take and paid the price .As the low air intake sucked up the hard metal turnings the compressor jammed and then exploded spectacularly blocking the taxi way further as fire personnel rushed in .

- alpha zulu 18 thru 28 –hawk eye – cleared for bomb run as planned –good luck and good hunting
- alpha zulu 1 thru 18 quicklu exit target area – cpme to heading 105 –make max speed – bug out guys the chaffs will not last forever
The first two waves of Mig 27 tucked in their wings to72 degree sweep angle and lit the after burner quickly crossing the sonic barrier and then mach 2 with some mirage 3 and pair of F-16 s trying to give a futile chase . Nothing can catch a Mig 27 when it is running hard except maybe a fox bat and PAF had nothing like that.
About the same time rest of the Mig 27 S screamed into a typical dive bombing pattern and released their KAB 1500 one by one .First to go was the control tower ,then the aviation fuel farm closely followed by the maintenance hangers and the helicopter parking ramp ,the runway intersections ,the surface to air missile batteries .

With no radar cover for 15 minutes –PAF could do precious little except try firing over open sight –not very effective when you dealing with mach 2 plus swing wing bombers with awac support
Still 2 Mig 27 s went down –one by a lone F-16 pilot who managed to take of and shot down a Mig 27 with 20 mm gun fire and the second went down when the pilot just tried to take out a radar dish with 6 barrel cannon and pressed the trigger too long .The engine stalled and the pilot had to eject after he tried and failed to restart the engine. The aircraft crashed and the pilot ejected –never to be heard of again
The whole of Sargoda air base complex was burning as the sun came up on the eastern skies .The ground littered with burnt out air frames ,vehicles,a few dead bodies and hundreds of kg of tiny gold plated plastic strips .It was not a pleasant sight for the PAF .

When ejected from an aircraft, chaff forms the electromagnetic equivalent of a visual smoke screen that temporarily hides the aircraft from radar. Chaff also serves to decoy radar allowing aircraft to maneuver or egress from the area. It consists of small, extremely tie fibers of aluminum or aluminum-coated glass that disperse widely in the air when ejected from the aircraft and effectively reflect radar signals in various bands, in order to create a very large image of reflected signals (“return”) on the radar screen. In the air, the initial burst from a chaff bundle forms a sphere that shows up on radar screens as an electronic cloud. The aircraft is obscured by the cloud, which confuses enemy radar. Since chaff can obstruct radar, its use is coordinated with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).
There are two types of chaff, aluminum foil and aluminum-coated glass fibers. The foil type is no longer manufactured, although it remains in the inventory and is used primarily by B-52 bombers. Both types are cut into dipoles ranging in length from 0.3 to over 2.0 inches. They are made as small and light as possible so they will remain in the air long enough to confuse enemy radar. The aluminum foil dipoles are 0.45 mils (0.00045 inches) thick and 6 to 8 mils wide. The glass fiber dipoles are generally 1 mil (25.4 microns) in diameter, including the aluminum coating which is 0.12 f 0.06 mils thick. A new superfine glass fiber chaff is being manufactured that is 0.7 mil (17.8 microns) in diameter.
Both chaff types have a slip coating to prevent end welding of fibers when cut and to minimize clumping when ejected. The coating is a 1 percent solution of Neofat 18 (90 percent stearic acid and 10 percent pahnitic acid) with naphtha as the solute. The naphtha is driven off during the curing process. The foil chaff has each cut wrapped in a thin paper sleeve. At one time, the foil chaff contained in cardboard boxes was manufactured with a lead-based stripe coating designed to offset the center of gravity of each dipole to increase flutter. The specification for that chaff is no longer in effect, and lead has not been used since the early 1980s.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby ticky » 21 Mar 2009 17:05

err.. Shanker, Mig 27 at mach 2. Isn't that a bit far fetched?

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Shankar » 21 Mar 2009 19:20

Strangely not much is known about Mig 23 /27 capabilities when lightly loaded but some indications can be found in publications around the globe

MiG-27 Flogger Specifications
Primary Function: Ground attack, tactical strike
Contractor: Mikoyan-Gurevich
Crew: One
Unit Cost: N/A
One 25,353 lb (112.8 kN) with afterburning Soyuz R-29B-300 turbojet engine
Length: 56 ft (17.08 m)
Wingspan: 45 ft 10 in (13.97 m) extended; 25 ft 6 in (7.78 m) swept
Height: 16 ft 5 in (5 m)
Empty: 26,252 lb (11,910 kg) -- equipped
Maximum Takeoff: 44,753 lb (20,300 kg)
Speed: 1,170 mph (1885 km/h / 1,017 kt)
Ceiling: 45,930 ft
Range: 950 nm -- cruise
One GSh-6-30 30mm cannon with 260 rounds, max 8,818 lb (4000kg) ordnance incl. ASMs, rockets, guided/unguided bombs, tactical nuclear bombs.

The MiG-23 was designed as a response to the F-4 Phantom II, the first MiG-21s were basicly second generation fighters, they lacked the missile armament and avionics associated with the third generation.

The best MiG-23 variants can hold 8.5Gs below the speed of Mach 0.85; the F-4E Phantom II barely can hold a max of 7.6Gs in operational service.
The MiG-23ML load factor is 8.5Gs below Mach 0.85 and beyond Mach 0.85 is 7.5Gs, The MiG-23MF has a slightly lower load factor of 8Gs at Mach 0.85 and a load factor of 7Gs above Mach 0.85, note that the IAI Kfir had a maximun load factor of 7.6Gs, this factors made the MiG-23 more than a match for the F-4 and Kfir, this forced in 1982 to the Israeli air force to rely on F-15s and F-16s as the main Israeli fighters since the MiG-23 clearly out machted the IAI Kfir in the air to air arena and was slightly better than the F-4.

The MiG-23 was also a fast design slightly faster than the F-4 Phantom and much faster than the Mirage III, Mirage F1 and MiG-21.

when the MiG-23M faced the F-4E in an air battle at the speeds of 800-1100 km/h at low and medium altitudes with the overloads at their max limits and close to the maximum of the thrust, MiG-23M in the horizontal maneuver exceeded the F-4E, however the MiG-23 was inferior to the F-4E in the vertical maneuver.

Analisys of the F-4E and MiG-23ML manuals shows that both aircraft are quit comparable, the F-4E holds a max sustained turn rate at sea level of 14.7 degrees/second, however it drops to 11.7 degrees/second at 10000 feet/3040 meters of altitude, however analisys of their turn radius shows that the MiG-23ML has a slight advantage over the F-4E at heights from 1000 meters to 5000 meters of altitude at speeds between Mach 0.5 to Mach 0.9

The IAI Kfir used to simulate the MiG-23 for the US navy TopGun Program, despite the Kfir is as fast as the MiG-23 it is not as agile in terms of Max sustained turn rate however it has a better Max instantaneous turn rate here some data for the IAI Kfir:

Typical combat weight with half of internal fuel and two Shafrir missiles – 9,390 kg.

Wing/canards loading at combat weight (9,390 kg) – 257.5 kg/sq.m.

Thrust/weight ratio at combat weight (9,390 kg) – 0.91.

Max rate of climb at sea level – 14,000 m/min.

Turn performance at 4,600-meter altitude and combat weight (9,390 kg):

Turn rate: sustained – 9.6 deg/sec; instantaneous – 18.9 deg/sec.

As we can see the Kfir performance is quit comparable to the MiG-23 except in the fact its delta wing bleeds energy faster and can not keep a sustained turn with a MiG-23, because the MiG-23ML has max instantaneous turn rate of 16.7 deg/s and a max sustained turn rate of 14.1 deg/s

The MiG-23M against the Mirage F1

Practically in the entire altitude range at the speeds of 700-1100 km/h, the MiG-23M surpassed the Mirage F-1 on maneuverability and rates of climb. At speeds more than 1100 km/h at average and high altitudes, the MiG-23M had lower sustained turn rates than the Mirage F1.

The MiG-23 was armed with superb weaponry , it was equipped with the AA-11 from the mid 1980s, and could fire its AA-8/R-60MK and R-73 cued by the TP-23/26 IRST systems, this type of armament was absent from most of the third generation fighter aircraft and even fourth generation fighters until the late 1990s.

It had a doppler radar with look down/shoot down capability. Its best versions had a radar that detected targets at a range of 90km and IRST systems that can detect targets at 50km of range.

The MiG-23MLD was the most perfect modification in the MiG-23 family. This aircraft has an optimum aerodynamic configuration, ensuring an essential improvement in maneuverability, this was achieved with a slight modification of its airframe aerodynamics. The MiG-23MLD has the much more improved radar Saphir-23MLA (N-008), this radar is capable of a searching and tracking of up to six aerial targets. The early radar weapons system of American fighter F -15 did not possess this capability.

The IRST system was inmune to electronic jamming and ECM, this system could also cue air to air missiles such as the R-23/24, R-60MK and the R-73

The MiG-23 could engage and dogfight with third generation fighters such as the F-4 or Mirage F1 in equal terms but it could not do it likewise with fourth generation aircraft such as the F-16, F-15 and F-14.

The MiG-23 could fly at the angles of attack to 24-26 deg., which ensured it the definite advantages over the western fighter aircraft of the 2nd and 3erd generations. But with the advent of the aircraft of the 4th generation this superiority was lost (F-16 of different modifications they had a limitation on the angle of attack of 26-28 deg; a F-15C could sustain an angle of attack of 30 deg.)
However at high angles of attack the MiG-23MLD creators attained the stability parameters and controllability, comparable with the flight AoA characteristics of the F-16.

At the speeds of 900 km/h and 1200 km/h the F-15 has better turn rate than the MiG-23 at different altitudes.
The F-15 has a sustained turn rate of 16 deg/s and an instantaneous turn rate of 21 deg/s.
The F-16 also is far more maneuvrable it has a Max instantaneous turn rate of 26 deg/sec while the best MiG-23 max instantaneous turn rate is 16.7 deg/sec, other turn parameters are the sustained turn rate and load factor at a turn but again the F-16 is superior to the MiG-23 in these too, the F-16 has a Max sustained turn rate of 21.5 deg/sec while the MiG-23ML has a Max sustained turn rate is 14.1 deg/sec

However the MiG-23 still could fight the F-16s with some advantages on its side at least from the 1970s to the late 1980s, when the F-16s lacked BVR (Beyond Visual Range) air to air missiles, this was just until the late 1980s before the AIM-120 and AIM-7 became part of the F-16 operational armament in the early 1990s.

From the 1970s to the late 1980s, the MiG-23 could simply rule the engagement and engage and disengage at will when it faced the F-16 in air combat. it could fly fast and do swifts attacks and disengage quickly avoiding getting involved in a dog fight with the F-16.

The MIG-23ML still can fly at Mach 2.35 even armed with two R-24s, this means that swift attacks against the F-16 would be very likely succesful and even more in the 1980s when the F-16 lacked any BVR armament and only relied in the short range AIM-9 Sidewinder

The Soviet Agressor MiG-23 unit used the same tactics when they played the role of agressor aircraft in mock air combat training exercises against Soviet MiG-29s at the Marii air base in the former Soviet republic of Turkmenistan throught out most of the 1980s
The MiG-23 played the role of agressor aircraft in the Soviet counterpart to the US Naval Fighter Weapons School located at the NAS of Miramar, popularly known as TOPGUN.
A well flown MiG-23 could achieve excellent kill rates against MiG-29s, in fact the MiG-23 agressors achieved kill rates in mock combat versus inexperienced MiG-29 pilots of 1:2 in their favor.

An interesting anecdote about the MiG-23 agility was given by the Dutch pilot Leon Van Maurer who had more than 1200 hrs flying F-16s and flew against MiG-23ML Flogger Gs from air bases in Germany and the USA as part of NATO`s aerial mock combat training with Soviet equipment; he said the MiG-23 has superiority on the vertical plain over the F-16A, and horizontaly is just slightly inferior to the F-16A, he also said the MiG-23ML had better BVR capabilities.

This was confirmed by the Israelies too when they obtained a Syrian MiG-23MLD that was flown to Israel by a Syrian defector and tested its flying characteristics, they were impressed with the
quick acceleration the MiG-23MLD had, they even claimed that the MiG-23 has better acceleration performance than the F-16 and F-18
In example the F-16 can accelerate from 600km/h to 1000km/h at the altitude of 1000 meters in just 15 seconds, while the MiG-23 can accelerate from 600km/h to 900km/h in just 12 seconds


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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby kaangeya » 21 Mar 2009 20:15

There has never been a carrier borne version of the MiG-23/27, (1/2 seater). It would be an impossible task to contain an attack craft like that on the high seas, as it would be better than even the A-6 Intruder. Powerful, v.fast, yank and bank, it would have it all. The MiG-27 is the IAF's best kept secret.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby ticky » 21 Mar 2009 20:22

Shankar, Mig-27 does not have variable intake ramp & exhaust nozzle like the Mig-23 IIRC. So inspite of the literature you posted, I still have my doubts.

P.S. The aircraft spec page for Mig-27 on BR site says it max speed is mach 1.7

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Shankar » 23 Mar 2009 11:43

Any IAF mIG23/27 pilots please clarify

Surely we have some IAF pilots here

while it is true Mig 27 do not have variable intake ramp and exhaust nozzles like Mig 23 it is difficult to assume just this factor will reduce max speed of Mig 27 from 2.35 to 1.8 mach

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby aditp » 23 Mar 2009 12:29

Shankar wrote:Any IAF mIG23/27 pilots please clarify

Surely we have some IAF pilots here

while it is true Mig 27 do not have variable intake ramp and exhaust nozzles like Mig 23 it is difficult to assume just this factor will reduce max speed of Mig 27 from 2.35 to 1.8 mach

Shankar,This is not "Just a factor". This is "THE FACTOR". To talk simply, a variable geometry intake system is required to reduce the supersonic air intake to subsonic velocities just before compressor inlet (IGVs - inlet guide vanes). Similarly to increase thrust, you need a variable geometry nozzle to reduce the potential energy of exhaust (read temperature) and increase the kinetic energy of the exhaust (high speed exit of exhaust gasses ---> greater change in momentum ---> greater thrust in flight ----> high speed of the aircraft).

However, the Mig-27 was designed as a dedicated ground attack aircraft, sor of the so called mud moving role, which requires the fly low, fly slow approach for accurate delivery of weapons, keep target lased etc etc. Hence the need for high speed, high altitude dash capability didnt originally exist for the Mig-27. So, no variable geometry components and speed restricted to mach 1.80

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Quick /Rapid Setting Concrete

Postby Avinandan » 23 Mar 2009 14:28

Most of the major air forces have the option of using quick /rapid setting concrete to repair damaged runways and helipads.

IIRC, DRDO had successfully created special Quick setting concrete which could repair damaged runways in 12 hours or so.
I guess that PAF would also be having such concrete to have their air bases repaired quickly.

Tried to google but only thing I found is below :--

Could you please share any info for this.


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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby ksmahesh » 25 Mar 2009 00:54

The scenarios by Vivek and Shankar are great but on a more strategic pov to the run up to the coming war I wanted to contribute my 2 cents:

Future looks (to me) like this:

ISI/DGFI sponsored:
1. Strengthening of Islamic terrorist network resulting in increase in frequency of bomb blasts and Mumbai like episodes.
2. Maoists gaining more power and reducing effective area under Indian state control.
3. Southern states Kerala, Karnatka and Andhra would face jehadi terrorism and Tamilnadu would experience Ltte elements gaining ground.
4. Assam/Tripura becoming Bangladeshi Muslim majority state. The influx will increase in multiple levels in the rest of the states.

Chinese Actions:
1. Complete and consolidate string of pearls strategy.
2. Convert all of Indian neighbours against Indian interests.

US Policies:
1. Keep attempting on CRE.
2. Keep arming pakistan.

GOI stupidity:
1. Procrastinate and cancel defense contracts time and again to make Indian Defense Forces weak materially: Canceling Attack helicopters.
2. Formulate policies to further demoralize Indian Forces: IAS/IPS status parity.
3. Sign treaties to destroy Indian negotiating power in international diplomacy: like CTBT signing.

End Result:
1. Build up of public pressure for war for peace which could result in disintegration of Pakistan and considerable loss of India. But we will survive.....

Please do rigorous cross examination of each of the point. I am writing a war scenario which I shall put here soon...


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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Baljeet » 25 Mar 2009 19:01

I agree. Due to MaadarCh**D politcians of this nation we are heading toward becoming another slave country. We still have slave mentality, psychologically we are not free, how can this nation be free from Slave Mentality when their own PM says, Brithish Raj was good for India meaning, Indians are better off living as slaves. What amazes me the most is these Ga***oo politicians don't roll over and die. I will donate 1000 Rs to Anath Ashram if all these Slave Netas just die one night. :evil:

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Avinandan » 25 Mar 2009 20:36

Baljeet wrote:ksmahesh
I agree. Due to MaadarCh**D politcians of this nation we are heading toward becoming another slave country. We still have slave mentality, psychologically we are not free, how can this nation be free from Slave Mentality when their own PM says, Brithish Raj was good for India meaning, Indians are better off living as slaves. What amazes me the most is these Ga***oo politicians don't roll over and die. I will donate 1000 Rs to Anath Ashram if all these Slave Netas just die one night. :evil:

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby ramana » 25 Mar 2009 20:39

Baljeet No rants in this thread. We have a lot of threads for that.

sum wrote:One of the old classics of Indian intel:
A secret hunt that trapped top Jaish militants

By Praveen Swami

NEW DELHI, JUNE 16. If it had not been for a chance traffic accident, an alert Border Security Force signals intelligence monitor, and a superbly-crafted intelligence operation, Srinagar could have been the midst of a bloody suicide-bombing offensive this summer.

Three months ago, the Indian Army announced that it had eliminated the overall head of the feared Jaish-e-Mohammad's military operations, Qari Mohammad Asif. Operating under the code-name `Sehrai Baba', Asif had been responsible for a string of terrorist attacks since he took office in September 2003. Now, an investigation by The Hindu has found Asif was killed more than three months before his elimination was made public — leading to a top-secret covert operation that secured the liquidation of almost the entire top leadership of the Jaish-e-Mohammad.

On April 8, the Indian Army announced that it had killed Asif, along with four other senior Jaish-e-Mohammad commanders, in northern Kashmir. Those killed included Malik Salimullah, a resident of Gujaranwala in the Pakistani province of Punjab, Nazaqat Zaman, a resident of Haripur in the North West Frontier Province, Yahya Khan of Karachi, and Zubair Ahmad. In one single blow, the terrorist group had lost almost its entire field command: an event unprecedented in the history of counter-terrorist warfare in Jammu and Kashmir.

In fact, The Hindu 's investigation has found, Asif died a full five months before this encounter in a chance shoot-out in Srinagar's Bemina area. The shootout followed a minor traffic altercation involving Asif, after which he opened fire on BSF personnel who intervened. BSF intelligence personnel learnt that the killed terrorist was referred to within his organisation by the wireless code-sign `Tango-4'. The organisation's sources were also able to determine that `Tango-4' was a senior figure in the Jaish-e-Mohammad hierarchy.

BSF signals personnel then made a chance discovery: `Sehrai Baba' had disappeared off the airwaves after the death of `Tango-4'. This led to the suspicion that `Tango-4' and `Sehrai Baba' were the same person. No one in the Jaish-e-Mohammad's Srinagar apparatus, investigators discovered, had seen or heard from their supreme commander in weeks: all they knew was that he was on a secret mission and would establish contact only when absolutely necessary.

Since the Jaish-e-Mohammad did not know that `Sehrai Baba' had been killed, Indian officials believed the situation could be leveraged to their advantage. By mid-January, a detailed plan was in place, known only to the BSF's in-house intelligence organisation, the G-Branch, the Intelligence Bureau, top police officials, and the commander of the Srinagar-based 15 Corps, Lieutenant-General Nirbhay Sharma. An Indian intelligence asset planted deep within the Jaish-e-Mohammad was now put to work executing the covert operation.

In late January, the source made contact with the Jaish-e-Mohammad's Pakistan-based chief, Maulana Masood Azhar — the terrorist released in the Indian Airlines flight IC184 hostages-for-prisoners swap at Kandahar. The source claimed to be passing on messages from `Sehrai Baba' to Azhar. `Sehrai Baba,' he said, had planned a series of large-scale operations inside Srinagar, but needed logistical support and personnel. Since Indian intelligence had in the past demonstrated the ability to break terrorist communications codes, the Jaish-e-Mohammad would have to take the risk of arranging a physical meeting on the Indian side of the LoC.

It worked. When the Jaish-e-Mohammad group reached their liaison point near Sogam, having used multiple routes across the Lolab mountains, Indian troops were waiting. "The whole thing had to be arranged with care," says a senior military source. "We had to make sure that, first, the source could be moved around by the Intelligence Bureau without hindrance by our own troops, while at once maintaining secrecy. We had to make sure the LoC crossing was trouble-free, but also monitor it at each stage. Finally, the ambush had to be laid with great precision. The slightest error could have jeopardised months of hard work."

Soon after the Sogam incident, Indian forces moved rapidly to eliminate the last two Jaish-e-Mohammad personnel drawn on to the Indian side of the LoC by the source, Multan resident Tassaduq Irshad, and Mohammad Iqbal Baksh. While the Jaish-e-Mohammad continues to have a formidable ground presence in Jammu and Kashmir, it is an Army without Generals.

always feel happy when i read this particular "incident".

Kudos to all the brave Indians working tirelessly for their country in the cloaks and dagger arena...

Can you write up a scenario for this? I really miss your spy scenario which you wrote long time ago.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Rupesh » 25 Mar 2009 21:09

ramana wrote:

Can you write up a scenario for this? I really miss your spy scenario which you wrote long time ago.

I second it...

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Nihat » 25 Mar 2009 22:04

Can the Moderators please clean up the thread so that only Scenario and Scenario related discussions happen , it helps with continuity.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby k prasad » 25 Mar 2009 23:30

Wheres Vivek???

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby ticky » 25 Mar 2009 23:46

k prasad wrote:Wheres Vivek???

Lurking and posting in every other thread except this one :evil: .
I seriously gave thought on stalking him on the forum :lol:

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Shankar » 26 Mar 2009 12:32

imagine a scenario: enemy aircraft penetrates air defence systems, fly over airfield and drop bombs on the runway. Craters are formed on the runway making it non-operational. Pilots cannot take off to defend or attack the enemy. Worthy war machines remain idle. The same runway needs to be attended to, repaired and rehabilitated at breakneck speed — usually overnight — to put it back into use.

War inventory, today, has indigenous supportive technology for such, expected contingencies. Helipads too can be built overnight. Commercially available Rapid Acting cement is used only for construction and cannot be used for runway repair. This indigenous technology is for civil use as well.

It started with a need in the armed forces felt to repair runway that gets damaged due to enemy bombing which leaves craters. Indian Air Force bought a mixer cum dispenser from a French company at an enormous cost. Since then, an alternative was looked at. In 1990 the DRDO sanctioned the concept of a Rapid Repair of Runway. Seven scientists and engineers set about making ‘Runway Rehabilitation using Quick Setting Cement’ a reality. Research and Development Establishment (Engineers) have since announced Rapigrout Cement — produced indigenously.


On an average, a crater in the runway is of 12 metre diameter and is two metre deep at the deepest point. Rapigrout is of a special variety that does not need conventional reinforcement with steel mesh or rods of steel or tor-steel. The shelf life of the French Mix is one year. Which means, if left unused, the ingredients go waste. But Rapigrout is claimed to have two years shelf life.

Rapigrout does not need the typical curing period. In fact, Rajendra Kumar Gupta, the scientist at Composite Research Center at R&D E(Engrs) claims that it is a non-curing cement. It gains in strength without conventional curing. It contains a ultra rapid hardening hydraulic binder. The cement is effective in the temperature range between minus 20 degree Celsius to 50 degree Celsius with additives. Additive C is used in cold weather and additive H is used in hot weather.

Setting time

The scientists recommend use of hot water at just 28 degree C mixed with Additive L, a lime-based compound. The chemical reaction due to lime mixing with water produces heat and Rapigrout uses this indigenous heat to set rapidly.

It is well known that normal cement used in construction takes 7 days to reach normal level of curing provided it is constantly kept wet. A total of 28 days are needed for the cement concrete to set fully. Further, as authenticated by Border Roads Organization, at Himalayan heights, curing takes much longer due to sustained low temperatures.

On the other hand, Rapigrout takes just 10 minutes for initial setting and in 25 minutes, it sets finally.

Laboratory tests after 100 minutes reported results with the test blocks able to withstand 100 kilo gram per square centi metre load.

A crater of 12 m diameter and having 2 m depth at the deepest point needs about 12,000 cubic metre of slurry. Water content needed varies - in cold weather it is less than 28 per cent of the total weight of Rapigrout used; in hot weather 32 per cent water content is sufficient. Pre-packed aggregate of 47 milli metre size — a little less than two inch size — is mixed with this very finely powdered cement. Fineness of the cement particles

is better than in normal

cement. The finer it is the faster it strengthens.

Rapigrout has a shelf life of two years and can be stored at a temperature range of minus 20 degree C and plus 50 degree C in

airtight containers. Cost of Rapigrout is estimated to be five or six times the Rapid Acting cement.

R&D E does not want to give away full details and commercialisation is still some time away. A leading cement manufacturing company has signed a Memorandum of

Understanding with DRDO to facilitate research, trial and manufacture.

Building a Helipad or helicopter landing ground, using Rapigrout is yet to be tried - or, if it has been tried - is not admitted to.

The minimum area needed to land and take off with Helicopter is a circle of 15 m diameters.

Just 24 hours!

Preparing the slurry with appropriate additive will take some time, to be spread evenly on the

prepared site. The mix sets in less than two hours and is ready for operation. The whole helipad can be built in 24 hours.

Such needs arise not only in Siachen but where landslides destroy arterial mountain roads and helipads. The recent

earthquake in Kashmir destroyed mountain ways and made relief operations

impossible at several


If emergency helipads could have been constructed better relief measures could reach the needy too. Helipads can be built in 24 hours.

Mining industries in Bellary are going in a big way to buy helicopters out of compelling needs and some of them are already into building helipads without any proper monitoring apart from them being improperly specified private helipads. Before it is too late, guidelines can draw attention to flight safety.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 26 Mar 2009 12:47


BR has come out ahead again with regard to military scenarios:


The Indian military fears a ‘Chinese aggression’ in less than a decade. A secret exercise, called ‘Divine Matrix’, by the army’s military operations directorate has visualised a war scenario with the nuclear-armed neighbour before 2017.

“A misadventure by China is very much within the realm of possibility with Beijing trying to position itself as the only power in the region. There will be no nuclear warfare but a short, swift war that could have menacing consequences for India,” said an army officer, who was part of the three-day war games that ended on Wednesday.

In the military’s assessment, based on a six-month study of various scenarios before the war games, China would rely on information warfare (IW) to bring India down on its knees before launching an offensive.

The war games saw generals raising concerns about the IW battalions of the People’s Liberation Army carrying out hacker attacks for military espionage, intelligence collection, paralysing communication systems, compromising airport security, inflicting damage on the banking system and disabling power grids. “We need to spend more on developing information warfare capability,” he said.

The war games dispelled the notion that China would take at least one season (one year) for a substantial military build-up across India’s northeastern frontiers. “The Tibetan infrastructure has been improved considerably. The PLA can now launch an assault very quickly, without any warning, the officer said.

The military believes that China would have swamped Tibet with sweeping demographic changes in the medium term. For the purposes of Divine Matrix, China would call Dalai Lama for rapprochement and neutralise him. The top brass also brainstormed over India’s options in case Pakistan joined the war too. Another apprehension was that Myanmar and Bangladesh would align with China in the future geostrategic environment.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby k prasad » 26 Mar 2009 13:02

vivek_ahuja wrote:Gentlemen,

BR has come out ahead again with regard to military scenarios:

Vivek... I think we BRFites now know what you're doing when you're not creating BRF scenarios - you're creating IA scenarios!!! :D :D

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 26 Mar 2009 14:42


DAY 5 + 0155 HRS

Brigadier Adesara walked inside the tents west of the airbase which was currently acting as his Brigade Tactical Headquarters. Inside the tents the shouts and noise of numerous staff and command officers filled the air. Radios were lined in what formed the signals detachment in a separate set of tents further away. They were supposed to have dedicated command trailers for this kind of operations in the modern battlefield but the Chinese UAVs had rendered that possibility suicidal. The latter had been constantly trying to locate and decapitate Adesara’s command and so if there was even the slightest visible movement that suggested that a HQ was nearby, the Chinese would launch an artillery attack on it.

At least till they were able to...Adesara thought. The Smerch battery near Saser had effectively neutralized the organic artillery support of the two Chinese Infantry Divisions facing Adesara’s Brigade. That had brought a welcome respite to the embattled Battalions under Adesara. Still, HQ security needed to be maintained...

“So how is the deployment taking shape?” Adesara asked Colonel Sudarshan, the commanding officer of the two Mechanized Infantry Battalions from the 10TH Mechanized Regiment that were now in the field in support of Adesara’s three Infantry Battalions that had taken a beating for more than a day now. Nevertheless, reinforcements had arrived on the Indian side and the Chinese side had taken sufficient casualties that at least the safety of the DBO airstrip and the Karakoram pass was no longer in danger but the threat remained extremely close. The two mauled Chinese Divisions were digging in opposite Adesara’s 5TH Infantry Brigade while they waited the arrival of the reinforcement Infantry Brigade and several independent armoured units. Once the latter arrived, the assault against DBO was expected to be restarted.

“On schedule and moving ahead. The 1/10 Battalion is deployed on the northern flank of the airstrip in support of the Gorkhas and the 3/10 Battalion is deploying on the southern flank. Div. HQ has dispatched 4/10 as well. I plan on keeping that Battalion in reserve.” Sudarshan said as he stood alongside the map table with Adesara. The Brigade’s Intelligence and Operations officers were also standing along the other edges of the map table. Adesara looked away from the maps and towards his Intelligence officer who took the cue:

“We still don’t know yet what the status of the Chinese reinforcement Division heading in from Sinkiang is. The Chinese S-300 batteries near the Qara Tagh La are killing our ability to gather intelligence. We lost one Heron UAV an hour ago after it was detected by the BIG-BIRD radar operating in the region. The Air Force has called off all UAV recons flights in that sector until they are able to take down the Chinese missile threat to our platforms. So DIA is now pushing for priority satellite Intel on the Chinese Division but even that is under pressure given the satellite Intel requirements on the Sikkim, Tibet and AP fronts. However, we do know that at least two Chinese fresh armoured Battalions have in fact been earmarked and presumably moving into the sector opposite us. These are mere hours behind the FEBA as of our latest estimate. We are unsure of the Division’s current presence though. It left its jump off point north of the Sinkiang-Aksai Chin border and is marching south. We just don’t know where...”

“In any case their vanguard cannot be more than a few hours away from reaching this sector.” Adesara noted, turning his head back to the map table. He let out a long breath and was then silent for a full minute before speaking to Colonel Sudarshan: “Okay. So we have a few hours of breathing space with us. We have two under-strength commie Divisions sitting across from us and awaiting their comrades in a third fresh Division to help them resume their drive towards taking the Karakoram pass. If we sit on our hands we inadvertently let the fresh incoming Division slide into the prepared battle positions created by the first two Divisions and shore them up. Once that happens they have a prepared base of fire against our defences and combined with their inbound tank units, we run the risk of being overrun. Again...No. We stop that from happening by acting now.”

Adesara was happy to notice that Colonel Sudarshan was nodding as well before he spoke: “I agree, sir. We need to shut the Chinese units now. We destroy the front lines and they lose their base of fire. The incoming Chinese reinforcements will then be forced to plug gaps rather than form a punch.”

“The only problem is that my three infantry Battalions are in no shape to take the fight beyond the immediate front. So the only way this will work is if we use my boys and your BMPs to smash the front facing us right now. There my Battalions take the ground and hold it. Beyond that your units are the only ones capable of advancing. Can your boys do that?” Adesara asked Colonel Sudarshan.

“My only concern is the incoming Chinese Tank Battalions. Mechanized Infantry Battalions cannot take Tank Battalions head on in a plain field. We will need some air and artillery support to handle them...”

“That can be arranged. Major Narayana confirmed to me the arrival and deployment of 199HU at Saser. But those are details. Remember the bigger picture: take your Mechanized Infantry Battalions, the 1ST, 3RD and the reserve 4TH, straight up the Chinese gut. Smash the under-strength commie units along the way and keep rolling eastwards. Use the additional support from 199HU once you overrun the Chinese in this sector.

After that, we fight the Chinese on the move in the Aksai Chin. Roll them over! Let’s see how they like a taste of their own medicine!”

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby k prasad » 26 Mar 2009 14:51

Simply brilliant Vivek... I wonder why you hadn't joined the Army... you'd have made one helluva general!!!

P.S... plz dont keep us waiting so long without telling us that posts will be delayed...

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 26 Mar 2009 15:40

k prasad wrote:P.S... plz dont keep us waiting so long without telling us that posts will be delayed...

Noted. :)

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 26 Mar 2009 15:40

DAY 5 + 0220 HRS

“So where are they now?” Lt-General Suman asked the XXXIII Corps General Staff officer (Intelligence) or GSO(I) for short, who was a Brigadier himself. The latter walked over to the large digital map on the wall in the Corps Operations Centre and pointed to a place on the map that showed an attached label: ‘Pagri’ before speaking:

“The Bhutanese have confirmed for us what DIA and our own Corps Intelligence assets have thought all along. The Chinese 55 Division’s first two Brigades have now reached the town of Pagri in the Chumbi valley and are continuing to move south. The remaining Brigade in this Division has already begun moving westwards towards the Sikikim border near Khungyami La east of the Yumthang valley. The Chinese 11 Division is moving south of Gyantse just behind the 55 Division’s rear elements.”

“And what happened to the third inbound Chinese Division?” General Yadav asked the Brigadier who shook his head as he spoke:
“It’s three Brigades are no longer heading towards Gyantse or have been held up along the way. They were expected to reach Gyantse hours ago but according to RAW’s local HUMINT assets we have had no eyeball contact with any new Division on the road from the Karo-La to Gyantse. They have disappeared along the way. Now units of the size of Divisions don’t disappear into the blue sky. So we currently believe that this unit has now moved off the road towards Gyantse and is possibly heading southeast...”

“What? But that takes them towards the northern borders of Bhutan!” Lt-Gen Sen interrupted. “Why on earth would the Chinese take a combat ready Division off their ORBAT for the Chumbi valley and send them towards Bhutan? Surely the RBA is no real threat to them?”

“Can this movement by the Chinese be substantiated?” Gen. Yadav asked the Brigadier.

“Yes sir. But we are not faring our UAVs that far out just yet. The aerial defences around the major communications nodes such as Gyantse, Lhasa etc inside Tibet are currently guarded by their S-300s. And satellite intelligence is in high demand for the Ladakh front at the moment. But for now we are continuing with the theory that the said Division is in fact moving south towards the Bhutanese border.”

Lt-Gen Sen looked away from the digital map screen to face Yadav: “They are trying to suck us into Bhutan all right. First that incident at the Three-Lakes region yesterday and now this direct threat to Bhutanese sovereignty. I suppose these guys are playing high stakes. They seem to be treating Bhutan as effectively open playing field. It widens their left flank when they make their move in the Chumbi valley and could possibly even connect with their move against Tawang in the IV Corps sector. You see that valley in the Lhuntse sector in Bhutan? That’s about the only place that Division could enter Bhutan. But once they do, they threaten the entire left flank of the IV Corps units protecting Tawang. They see that as too much of a gain to not consider invading Bhutan.”

“Agreed.” General Yadav continued. “Notify the IMTRAT folks in Bhutan as well as the RBA forces that their northern borders are now under threat until told otherwise. Ask them to submit a preliminary appreciation of the situation immediately along with their readiness, TO&E and mobility requirements. I will pass the word to the Defence Minister. He needs to make sure that the Bhutanese Government know the threat that they could be under.”

“Yes sir. And what about the two Divisions already in the Chumbi valley?” Lt-Gen Sen asked.

“They have reached far enough and most of our chess pieces are in place. It’s time we initiated Operation CHIMERA...”

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 26 Mar 2009 16:17

DAY 5 + 0300 HRS

“What is this?” the Defense Minister asked as he took the sheet of paper from the Lt-Commander even as the Admiral walked in. The looks on the faces of the two naval officers standing in his office told him that something had finally begun to happen in the third dimension of war...

“It’s a warning issued by the US Navy about Chinese submarines entering the Malacca strait. It was handed to us an hour ago. Since then we have taken steps to confirm this threat. Two of our IL-38s launched from the Nicobar Islands a few minutes ago.” The Admiral noted dryly even as the Defense Minister continued to read the report he had been handed. A few seconds later he lowered the paper and looked at the Admiral: “So we will know more in a few hours?”

“Yes. In the meantime I have put the Eastern Fleet on high alert. Almost all commercial shipping has been diverted away from the Malacca strait for days now so that threat is low. Even so, I intend to keep the Bay of Bengal clean of all things communist.” The Admiral said in a matter of fact tone.

“Assuming that the Chinese submarines are now in the region, who’s on point apart from the two patrol aircraft you talked about?” the Defense Minister asked.

“The Kilo class submarine Sindhuvijay is entering the Malacca strait as we speak...”

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Nitesh » 26 Mar 2009 16:21

vivek_ahuja wrote:“The Kilo class submarine Sindhuvijay is entering the Malacca strait as we speak...”

No Akula in action? :evil:

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Sudhanshu » 27 Mar 2009 03:00

Come on.. Akula should not be used for such small task it would be in China sea waiting to pump in SLBM in Shangai or Beijing. :)

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby andy B » 27 Mar 2009 08:33

^^^ No version of Akula carries SLBMs onlee CMs and ASMs

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Shankar » 27 Mar 2009 13:19

The radar imaging satellite (RISAT) has an all-weather viewing capability to beef up its intelligence acquisition capabilities after the Mumbai terror attacks, the reports said.
Israel has provided India with Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR), which is in fact "heart" of the 1,780-kilogram remote sensing satellite, an official on condition of anonymity told Press Trust of India news agency on Friday.
"Israel has supplied substantial systems," the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) official said.
In the first week of April the orbiter, named RISAT 2, will be launched with the help of the Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV), the Indian rocket.
The Israeli "substantial inputs" followed similar support provided by New Delhi to aid the Jewish State launch an Israeli spacecraft TecSAR through India's space port in Sriharikota in southern region, last year.
TecSAR is an Israeli reconnaissance satellite that has a resolution of around 10 centimetres, allowing it to read number plates on vehicles from the sky.
But ISRO spokesman S. Satish was quoted by CNN as he did not confirm whether the new satellite will be used for defense or spying purposes.
"As far as ISRO is concerned, this (spying) is not one of the applications," he said.
India does not have a high-precision reconnaissance satellite. The existing satellites cannot track activites during night time and in the monsoon season.
India has been sharing evidence with Pakistan related to the November 26-29 siege of Mumbai by 10 militants. But New Delhi has accused Islamabad of its sluggishness in tackling the investigation on terrorism.


She glided effortlessly in space in total silence and in darkness. The on board batteries were fully charged and the synthetic aperture radar was about to be switched on, on command from a facility some where in central India.

Down below a convoy of Pakistani military trucks labored up the sharp gradient .They were carrying a special group of JEM terrorists including area commander Srinagar region for injection into Indian Territory under the cover of darkness. Once they reach the line of control field artillery group 23 will provide the covering fire by random firing on the Indian positions and Srinagar Leh national high way, allowing the top level group of terrorists to slip through.

Pakistan army have been using this tactics for long and quite successfully too.

Captain Hasan cursed loudly in Punjabi as the truck rolled over a large boulder and slipped into the valley side ditch .The quick reflex of the driver saved their lives but still the convoy was stuck .As soldiers and Mujahedeen poured out of the trailing trucks to clear the road – unseen to any of them, hundreds of kilometers up in the sky the bird of death flashed by.

With a resolution of less than 10 centimeter – she could read the number plate of a car in darkness and that she did effortlessly number of times .She also photographed or rather took radar images of the trucks, the mobile anti aircraft system accompanying the convoy and the exact location where the truck went off the road and got stuck in the ditch.

The onboard computer processed all the raw data, filtered and encrypted and then uplinked to one of the INSAT 4 geosynchronous birds 35800 kms up in space with its dedicated transponder fro RISAT M use.

It will take all of 45 minutes before the high resolution radar images were on the desk of Air commodore Manjit –base commanding officer IAF station Pathankot with strike authorization from western air command .

He called for an immediate briefing and also issued order for getting the strike formation up and about.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Shankar » 27 Mar 2009 17:26


This air base was first built in 1948 following the independence of India. It is also the home to the No. 5 and No. 14 Squadrons of Jaguar aircraft, No. 23 Squadron of MiG-21bis and No. 24 Squadron of Su-30.

The Indian Air Force base at Ambala was attacked by the Pakistani Air Force in both the 1965 and 1971 wars. In 1965, the Pakistanis struck Ambala and reportedly destroyed some Indian planes just after they had returned from missions. The Flying Instruction School, or simply known as FIS was formed here in 1948 but was resituated to Tambaram near Chennai in 1954.

Group captain Chran lal opened the classified flah priority signal from Pathankot requesting him to make available a six jaguar strike flight ready within one hour for low level bombing role in POK .PHALCON support will be available . Target a convoy of Pakistani army with good mix of terrorists who they wanted to push through line of control. Secondary target Pakistani army fire base Delta Delta who have commenced unproved shelling across the line of control to help the terrorists sneak in under the cover of darkness.
Out in the darkness dispersed along the runway nearly 40 upgraded Jaguars lay waiting for a combat mission which have so far eluded them –but not any more .

Charan lal sent off a request for possible tanker support on the way out which got confirmed by command almost immediately . His next action was to call the commanding officer of the Jaguar and Flanker squadrons as he did not wanted to involve Pathankot in such risky low level mission depending rather on resources from the same base to minimize radio traffic as well as better mission co ordination.
he first phase of the upgrade programme for Jaguars, deep-penetration strike aircraft of Indian Air Force, has been successfully completed, which will add more lethality to the fleet's long-range ground attack capability.

The upgrade programme, considered significant to maintain effective airpower strength of the type, was carried out by aerospace and defence manufacturing major Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).
"We successfully completed the first phase of the upgrade programme for the Jaguar aircraft and delivered the fleet to Indian Air Force," General Manager of HAL's Aircraft Design and Research Centre P L Vaishampayan told PTI here.
Vaishampayan said the upgrade programme included a new version of avionics apart from other features which would make the planes more lethal for the long-range ground attack operation.

"The upgrade programme has added more teeth to the fleet's striking capability."
The main focus of the upgrade programme was to replace the older version of the avionics in the aircraft with a new version, known as display attack ranging inertial navigation (Darin-3).
The HAL is carrying out another development programme for the Jaguar fleet which includes additional features like an advanced radar system.
"Another development programme is going on for the strike aircraft to add some additional features like advanced radar systems which IAF wants," Vaishampayan said. The additional development programme for the fleet is being carried out by the Bangalore-based defence behemoth in consultation with the IAF.
A variety of weapons including cluster, free fall and laser guided bombs, as well as rockets can be carried on the four wing of the aircraft which is also capable of carrying nuclear warhead.
Inducted into the Air Force on July 27, 1979, the first batch of Jaguars from Britain was the first deep penetration strike aircraft in the region which gave India an edge over its neighbours in air capability.
These were followed by another batch of UK built Jaguars to re-equip No. 5 Squadron of the IAF even as simultaneously, HAL prepared for production of the aircraft, its power plants, avionics and accessories in India.
By the mid-80s, the Jaguar was in service with Nos. 5, 14, 16 and 27 Squadrons, while a flight of No.6 Squadron was equipped with the Maritime Jaguar carrying the new generation Sea Eagle anti-ship sea-skimming missile.
The Jaguar strike fighter was equipped also with Magic air-to-air missiles on unique overwing pylons, featured advanced nay-attack systems and able to carry formidable warload till the far ends of the sub-continent.
The aircraft has a played key role in the Kargil war in 1999. The Jaguar, on its induction, added a new dimension to air operations in the sub-continent.
The aircraft has the capability to strike in all kinds of weather and by day and night. The IAF also has the maritime version of the aircraft.
The original manufacturing countries of the Jaguar, France and the United Kingdom, have retired it from their air forces in recent years but the aircraft fleet is still considered as precious assets of the Indian Air Force.
HAL will upgrade these British-designed planes with a new version of the avionics, called display attack ranging inertial navigation (Darin-3), replacing the initial version of the system, Darin-1, for the lo-ng range ground attack fighter.
“These (68) planes were built in late 1980s to early 1990s, (and since then) aircraft avionics have improved phenomenally,” said a person familiar with the development, who did not wish to be named.
The Inertial Nav-Attack System Integration Organization (IIO), a multiple agency unit set up by the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO), IAF and HAL built the Darin system first in 1980s.
In 2001, HAL had to built the DRDO’s defence avionics research establishment and Darin-2 version, after Britain’s Smiths Aerospace backed out of a deal to build avionics for the planes. Since then, DRDO has gained expertise to build avionics for the Sukhoi 30 MkI fighter, the Tejas light combat aircraft and upgrade the avionics system for the Mig 21 fleet of the IAF.
“This is like a mid-life extension for these planes. It will be lethal for some more years,” said a former HAL official, who was involved in manufacturing Jaguar aircraft for the IAF. He did not want to be named.
IAF got the first batch of Jaguar planes in 1979. These 68 planes were among the first lot of Jaguars produced Systems Plc., at its Bangalore factory by HAL under licence from BAE (then known as British Aerospace). It had closed the Jaguar assembly line twice before opening it in 2000, to make 37 such planes.
HAL, the only manufacturer of Jaguars globally, has produced the last of these planes, called Shamsher in the IAF, this year.
The same assembly line is being used partly to produce BAE Systems’ Hawk advanced jet trainer for the IAF.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Shankar » 27 Mar 2009 18:41


Captain Hassan cursed once again in chaste Punjabi and in strictly un printable language as the truck got lodged firmly into a rocky crevice and the crane summoned from nearby road repair section snapped its lifting rope trying to force it out of the crevice into which the lead truck have jammed into.

He looked up and was nervous –the lat few days air strikes particularly one in Sargoda by Indians was not a welcome development for Pakistan army particularly when this kind of “moral cum logistic support mission” .He was no great supporter of the terrorists or Taliban but he knew unless he showed apparent sympathy his carrier in army will surely not sparkle .That is why he volunteered for tonights comparatively easy mission .

There were nearly 20 trucks and equal number jeeps in the convoy . The trucks essentially carried the weapons for Kasmiri freedom fighters mainly Ak 47s and boxes of 7.62 mm ammo along with a variety of RPG and hand grenades the tools of trade for the religious fanatics who he was responsible till line of control .Then onwards it was the responsibility of field arty nits and rangers .

As he shouted urgent request for another crane –far to south west his destiny was about to be sealed

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Shankar » 28 Mar 2009 14:05

The Jaguar marked a clear departure from the previous policy of using old fighters in the ground-attack role. The Jaguar was designed as a "bomb cart" able to haul a large load of bombs at high subsonic speed at low level and then make a supersonic escape after delivery.
The two-seater Jaguar design survived as a conversion trainer for the single-seat aircraft. Five versions emerged from the design phase....
JAGUAR A - French single seat strike aircraft.
JAGUAR B - UK two-seat trainer.
JAGUAR E - French two-set trainer.
Jaguar M - French carrier based single-seat strike aircraft.
Jaguar S - UK single-seat strike aircraft.
The Jaguar M project was cancelled and France ordered the Super Etendard instead.French Jaguars have seen action in Mauritania and Chad, but the biggest test for the Jag came in the war for Kuwait. Both British and French Jaguars operated in the Gulf. Before the air war began British commanders had decided not to use their Jaguars at low-level, but go for medium-level strikes with fighter and anti-radar missile support. This proved correct and British Jaguars had great success with bombs and rockets. The first French Jaguar mission of the war was flown at low level but 3 of the 12 aircraft were badly damaged by light flak and SAM7 hand-held missiles. After that the French also flew at higher level and started to use the AS30L to good effect. Since the Gulf War the RAF has looked again at its Jaguar force and started a programme to update them to GR1B standard. This involves new electronic systems and the fitting of a TIALD pod (TV airborne laser designator). This will enable the use of laser guided bombs. The programme was rushed through to give NATO the means to hit pin-point targets in the former Yugoslavia. Twelve aircraft were due to be modified under the initial contract.
The Sepecat company formed by Dasssault-Breguet and British Aerospace to produce Jaguar has been successful in selling it to a number of nations. Most notable is India which has over 100 in its air force, including a specialized maritime strike version. The export version is known as "Jaguar International" and most are built to the RAF standard (i.e. Jaguar S single-seat and Jaguar B two-seat). Jaguars are due for replacement by the Eurofighter in RAF service and by the Rafale in the Armee de l'Air.
One interesting point to note is that two other aircraft designed at the same time as the Jaguar ended up with the same two-engine high-wing layout and they can be very hard for even the best plane spotter to tell apart. The first look-alike is the Japanese Mitsubishi F-1 fighter which has the same Adour powerplant as the Jaguar. The second is the "Jurom" Orao, the product of Romanian and Yugoslavian co-operation, powered by two Rolls-Royce Viper 632 turbojets.


By 16 June, IAF was able to open up the laser-guided bombing campaign with the help of Jaguars and Mirage-2000. Daily photo-recce along the LOC by Jaguars escorted by Mirage-2000s, which had continued from the beginning of operations, proved crucial to both the aerial bombing campaign as well as the Indian artillery, the latter in accurately shelling Pakistani positions in Dras-Kargil and Gultari Sectors. While the photo-recce missions typically did not involve deliberate border violations, there were a total of 37 ‘technical violations’ (which emanate as a consequence of kinks and bends in the geographical boundaries). Typically, these averaged to a depth of five nautical miles, except on one occasion when the IAF fighters apparently ‘cocked-a-snoot’ at the PAF and came in 13 miles deep.


Group captain Charan Lal finished his walk around particularly checking out the gun ports and cluster bombs and of course the pitot tube .and signs of hydraulic fluid leakage .Satisfied he climbed into the cockpit.
The night was cool and quite for the moment. On the other side of the runway the flankers were slowly taxing out to main runway .They will lead the strike with anti radiation missiles as well as dumb bombs from medium altitude to confuse and overwhelm the air defense capability of the target –mainly mobile surface to air missile batteries .His Jags will deliver the killing blow with cluster bombs and rockets to ensure there is no survivor.
They have practiced this kind of mission many times over similar terrain in Kashmir and North east today it will be for real for the first time.
He could not but stop thinking about Kargil and operation Safed Sagar .His main task then as a young squadron leader was to carry out photo recon mission mostly in daytime which allowed subsequent accurate strike mission by the Mirage 2000 s and the Mig 27 s. During operation Parakram his flight was once again on alert for possible anti- tank mission over the Rajastan dessert.
But this will be the first time his squadron will fire in anger.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Shankar » 28 Mar 2009 15:33


The new prime minister of India closed the folder .It contained a detailed proposal from army head quarters on deployment plan of Indian army in Afganistan. US has asked for 150000 troops with supporting engineering ,armor and air support elements to be based along with multi national force in Afganistan for possible full scale invasion of Taliban controlled areas in southern Afganistan and Pakistan .The scale of operation will be even bigger than Sri Lanka and expected to last atleast 5 years .Both Russia and China have offered full support followed by thier joint declaration in Moscow in March . Taliban or Islamic fundamentalism was a threat none of them could ignore any longer

Tomorrow Russian and Chinese ambassadors will meet him and freeze the details which will include a cast iron guarantee from peoples republic to keep the eastern borders quite and ensure Pakistan once cornered do not start using the nuclear card like before .

Tomorrows meeting will be closed door one -once the basic instrument was signed by the respective ambassadors and foreign secretary it will be put up for formal signing ceremony by the leaders in a weeks time .The actual air lifting of troops will start immediately there after

The Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) is an intergovernmental international organization founded inShanghaion15 June 2001by six countries,China,Russia,Kazakhstan,Kyrgystan,TajikistanandUzbekistan.Its member states cover an area of over 30 million km2, or about three fifths ofEurasia, with a population of 1.455 billion, about a quarter of the world's total. Its working languages are Chinese and Russian.

Russia, India, Iran to fight terror jointly
Though an official declaration is yet to come, the concerned authorities of the three countries are contemplating taking stern action against the growing militancy in the Asian region collectively

INDIA, IRAN and Russia, are now planning to fight against the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, which is one of the oldest friends of the three countries.

Though an official declaration is yet to take place, the concerned authorities of the three countries are contemplating taking stern action against the growing militancy in the Asian region collectively.

The north-west part of Pakistan has already become a hotbed of Taliban and Al Qaeda. The frequent terrorist attacks in Pakistan and Afghanistan ultimately hamper the peace process in the Asian region. The political strife in Pakistan also stands as a hindrance in curbing terrorism there. Several terrorist attacks took place in different places of Pakistan in recent days which left scores dead. Afghanistan is also not an exception.

Along with this, the exit strategy of the United States armed forces as well as the NATO forces from Afghanistan might increase the power of the Taliban in Afghanistan and the Pak-Afghan bordering regions. According to the experts, the Pakistan based militant organisations would play a strong role in bringing the Taliban to power in Afghanistan again.

The decision to jointly fight against militancy in the Asian region would take place in Shanghai Cooperation Organisation's ministerial meeting in Moscow. Saeed Jalili, the senior Iranian official would also visit New Delhi this week.

MOSCOW, March 27 (Xinhua) -- The Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) has devoted itself to safeguarding regional peace and stability, and is ready to cooperate with Afghanistan in solving its problems, Deputy Chinese Foreign Minister Song Tao said here on Friday.
The international community has paid great tribute to the SCO in view of its increasingly important role in regional affairs, said Song, who was attending the Moscow conference on Afghanistan.
It takes the efforts of the Afghan government and people, as well as support from the international community, for the war-ravaged country to resume peace, stability and development, the Chinese diplomat said.
The SCO will actively cooperate with the Afghan government in fighting terrorism, drug trafficking and transnational crimes so as to safeguard regional peace and stability, Song said.
Song called on the parties to support the United Nations' leading role in Afghanistan's reconstruction, to aid Afghanistan in its elections, and to improve and enhance regional cooperation mechanisms.
The deputy foreign minister said China has written off a loan of 75 million U.S. dollars it provided to Afghanistan.
Song also exchanges views with representatives of the conference participants on international and regional issues of common concern. The parties issued a joint declaration and an action plan at the end of the meeting.
The Moscow conference on Afghanistan was held under the auspices of the SCO, a regional security organization comprising Kazakhstan, China, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan.
Also attending the meeting were representatives of Group of Eight members, Turkmenistan, Turkey, Iran, the United Nations, the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO), the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), the EU and NATO. Editor: Wang Guanqun

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby prabir » 28 Mar 2009 18:43

Chinese supporting Russian, US and Indian initiative against their proxy Pakistan is at best "make believe". It will never happen, because, should it ever happen, it will solve the problem in the sub-continent which China will never want to be solved.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby K Mehta » 28 Mar 2009 20:55

ramana wrote:Dileep,
Can you write up a scenario for this? I really miss your spy scenario which you wrote long time ago.

What!! :shock:
Dileep Chetta "Cooking up" spyce scenarios? Bring them on Dileep chetta.

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Shankar » 29 Mar 2009 14:02

During the prosecution of the U.S. war
against the Taliban and Al Qaeda in
Afghanistan, which began on October 7,
2001, China was not as central as Pakistan
and did not provide staging areas for U.S.
military forces, as did some Central Asian
states. Nonetheless, China actively
encouraged Pakistani President Pervez
Musharraf to cooperate with Washington

(more on this to follow). In addition,
Beijing provided limited direct assistance
to Washington. To start, the PRC closed
its border, preventing the escape of
Taliban and Al Qaeda operatives into
though their destination of choice
appears to have been Pakistan’s tribal
areas.18 Soon after the attacks on
September 11, Beijing arrested numerous
suspects in China who had ties to the
Taliban and Al Qaeda,19

http://www.nixoncenter.org/publications ... apters.pdf

China’s unequivocal support of America’s
war on terrorism and its encouragement of
Pakistan to help destroy the Taliban
regime was a galvanizing factor in
Islamabad’s calculations. Following his
December 2001 visit, Musharraf stated, “I
can also say with satisfaction that our
Chinese counterparts showed a complete
understanding and support of the rationale
behind our joining the coalition to fight
”28 China’s leaders have had a
series of high-level exchanges with
Pakistani officials throughout the U.S.
operations in Central Asia. In June 2002,
Secretary of State Colin Powell thanked
China for playing a constructive role in
the war in Afghanistan and in stabilizing
the volatile situation between Pakistan and
India, a conflict that some in the summer
of 2002 feared might go nuclear
Although Pakistan has provided ongoing
and significant assistance to the United
States, some scholars believe that this will
only continue if this assistance does not
conflict with China’s interests. “The
Pakistanis are never going to jeopardize
their Chinese alliance for ties with the
U.S.,” said Central Asia expert Svante
Cornell. “They’re only going to do this as
long as the two are compatible.”30
Although this statement is likely true, the
interests of Beijing, Washington, and
Islamabad have remained minimally
congruent throughout the war in
Afghanistan. For its part, Beijing wanted
to be rid of the troublesome Taliban
regime and to destroy the Al Qaeda camps
that could mobilize the PRC’s own
potential Islamic insurgents, particularly
in Xinjiang.

U.S.-China Cooperation on
In addition to China’s support in Central
and South Asia during the opening stages
of the war on terrorism, China has
continued to work directly with the United
States to combat terrorism. To be sure,
because China is not on the front lines of
this struggle, its help has been somewhat
limited. Nonetheless, because Beijing
wishes to improve relations with
Washington and because Beijing sees its
own interests as at least partially
compatible with Washington’s, the PRC
has been tangibly constructive.
Externally, China has shown active
support of all UN counterterrorism
resolutions, including resolutions 1368
(China’s first explicit vote in favor of the
international use of force) and 1373
(aimed at disrupting terrorist finances).44
Internally, China has amended the
criminal law of the PRC to address
terrorism and terrorist financing.45
Washington and Beijing also have made
joint efforts to crack down on the
financing of terrorist activities. For
instance, in September 2002, former U.S.
Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill hosted a
meeting with then–Chinese Finance
Minster Xiang Huaicheng to discuss
financial and economic cooperation.

China’s Brush with International
China’s experience with terrorism beyond
its borders has not been extensive, though
it has been important. Chinese have been
targeted in comparatively small-scale
incidents. They have been killed and
wounded in bombings from Jerusalem to
Jakarta. Though Chinese civilians have
not been targeted abroad in ways similar
to attacks on Israel, America, Europe,
Saudi Arabia, or even South Korea, many
Chinese have been killed and wounded
during indiscriminate attacks on civilians
(see Table 1). Four Chinese workers, for
example, died in suicide bombings in
Jerusalem and Tel Aviv in 2002, and
several Chinese were wounded during the
August 5, 2003, bombing of the Marriott
in Jakarta.66 Two mainland Chinese were
killed aboard American Airlines flight 77
during the attack on the Pentagon. 67 In
addition to these casualties, Chinese
officials and businesspeople have been
direct (as opposed to inadvertent) targets
of assassination abroad. In June 2002, for
example, Chinese Consul Wang Jianping
was shot to death in Bishkek,
Kyrgyzstan. 68 Chinese authorities blamed
the attack on Xinjiang separatist groups.
Terror on the Mainland
China also has suffered from domestic
China’s troubled history with
restive minority areas, particularly in
Tibet and Xinjiang, has occasionally
produced riots, racial violence, and
terrorist bombings. Most notably, forces
in Xinjiang that aim to establish a separate
East Turkestan state have been blamed for
sporadic killings and bombings during the
past two decades. Beijing recently has
sought to include these actors in the global
fight against terrorism
. China has
approximately 19 million Muslims,
mostly non-Han minorities living in
western China. The Uighurs, a Turkic
population of about nine million, live in
Xinjiang. Beijing worries that militant
Islamic movements in Central Asia and
the Middle East may radicalize some in
this population.

On August 26, 2002,

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby ashdivay » 31 Mar 2009 02:58

grrrrr :evil: i want the next phase of this op....soon dammit. or i will cry . :(

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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby ramana » 31 Mar 2009 03:56

K Mehta wrote:
ramana wrote:Dileep,
Can you write up a scenario for this? I really miss your spy scenario which you wrote long time ago.

What!! :shock:
Dileep Chetta "Cooking up" spyce scenarios? Bring them on Dileep chetta.

You might want to read his past story "Golden Bowl"


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Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Mihir.D » 01 Apr 2009 13:23

Somebody post something pls :( :(

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