Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
vivek_ahuja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2330
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 16:58

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 15 Jan 2013 09:56

KORLA
NORTHWESTERN CHINA
DAY 12 + 1300 HRS


“Confirm, tower. We are beginning approach in one minute.”
“Pattern is clear.”
The Lieutenant-Colonel piloting the aircraft had his hands on the throttle as the whine from the outside decreased slightly. His other hand was on the controls as he and his co-pilot, a Major, brought the KJ-2000 down below the gray winter clouds. The view from the cockpit was negligible as they broke under the cloud cover. After a few seconds the aircraft cleared under and the clear brown and white terrain around Korla was visible.

The Major used his left arm to open the button-cover and pressed the button for lowering the undercarriage. The aircraft shuddered discernably as the large undercarriage of the modified Il-76 lowered themselves and locked into position. The pilot also lowered the huge flaps of the aircraft whose motors they heard humming in the cabin behind.

“You see it?” the pilot asked as he looked out from the cockpit glass.
“To your left, twenty kilometers,” the Major replied as he saw the concrete runway at Korla.
“I have it.”

This aircraft was one of the last pair of KJ-2000s in the PLAAF which had survived the last two weeks of war with the IAF. Both sides had taken hits to their airborne-radar force. The Indians had lost a CABS AEW and all of its crew over northern Bhutan less than two days before. Most of its aerostats in the east were down as well, barring one north of Jorhat. On the Chinese side, the 26TH Air Division had paid a heavy price as well. At the start of the war this Division controlled all of the organic special-mission support aircraft for the PLAAF and as such had been in the IAF cross hairs from the word ‘go’. It had lost a Tu-154 electronic-warfare aircraft north of Arunachal-Pradesh early in the war, but its KJ-2000s and KJ-200s had been luckier until a week ago. Since then the IAF had systematically gone after these aircraft and the force within the 26TH Division that operated them: the 76TH Airborne Command and Control Regiment. Deployed between Korla and Golmud, they had taken multiple losses on the ground, but only one in the air. That one KJ-2000 had been destroyed by a heavy force of Su-30s during a concerted heavy-handed effort over the Taklimakan desert. After that they had lost another such aircraft at Golmud along with one of its Kj-200 brethren as well as the 76TH ACCR command and control. The other KJ-200s were deployed east out of Lanzhou and Chongqing and operated in defense of the airspace there, leaving the Tibetan airspace under partial PLAAF airborne-radar control driven by these two aircraft.

The Lieutenant-Colonel brought his aircraft into a large radius turn and aligned himself with the runway just as the escorting pair of J-11s broke formation and climbed back into the cloud cover above.

These J-11s were part of the nine-strong force split between Korla, Wulumuqi and Urumqi airbases from the original 55TH Regiment of the 19TH Fighter Division. That force had died a painful death under operation Punitive-Dragon, but had nailed the Indian AEW cover over southern Tibet. Now the surviving Flankers from this Division were riding shotgun on the 26TH Air Division as close escort until replacement Fighter Divisions being sent by General Wencang would start to arrive at the fighter airbase cluster north of Korla…

As the aircraft lowered in altitude and the very experienced Lieutenant-Colonel gingerly adjust the approach, the screen from the cockpit glass disappeared in a flash of light. Both men instantly brought their arms over their eyes to cover as the light dissipated and revealed a small yellow ball of flame rising above the ground north of them.

“What was that!?” the Major shouted as he leaned his neck around the corner of the cockpit side-glass to see the fire ball going up and disappeared inside a mushroom shaped smoke cloud.
“It was a nuclear detonation! We just lost Uxxaktal!” the Lieutenant-Colonel shouted. “We need to get out of here! Now!”

He immediately pushed his right hand on the throttle controls all the way forward and the whine from the engines outside instantly increased and the aircraft shuddered. The engines were soon groaning at maximum. He pushed the radio frequency to the one for Korla Operations.

“Tower! We just lost Uxxaktal to a nuclear detonation! It must be the…Korla tower?” he said and then checked his frequencies. They had been correct the first time, but he had set them wrong in the urgency of the situation. He corrected that back again:

“Korla tower, This is…” he began to speak as their front view disappeared in anther flash of light over Korla, this time mush stronger and closer than before. He pulled the control stick back along with the Major even as they shielded their eyes using their shoulders. The aircraft pulled up immediately and the fuselage strained and groaned under the intense stresses.

By the time the flash subsided, they were already at a very high pitch-up attitude, which for an aircraft the size of an Il-76, was extremely stressful on the fuselage. He realized this and instantly pushed the stick back and the aircraft began leveling out, climbing above the ball of pure yellow fire now taking shape over the airbase. Of course, they had been heading straight for it and the pressure waves expand in three-dimensional space. It hit the aircraft a few moments later just as they pulled level…

The sudden bang instantly eliminated all aircraft controls and the engine whine died of as the aircraft began diving. The pressure wave had ripped off three of the engines straight from their pylons under the wings along with most of the control surfaces. They were close enough to the explosion that they saw the floor of smoke and dust that had enveloped the ground in a circular pattern around the detonation point. The ground now completely filled the views from the cockpit glass as they both attempted to pull level with whatever controls they had left. They managed to do that somewhat and the aircraft pulled level just as it passed into the smoke floor on the ground and made a belly landing on the paddy fields south of the runway by a few kilometers. The aircraft broke into several pieces and flipped and rolled into the muddy waters with few fires, given that they had been very low on fuel at the time of arrival to Korla and the muddy freezing slush of the fields. But there was no question of survivors from such a violent crash.

As the center fuselage barrel of the KJ-2000 covered in slush rolled to a halt next to a demolished paddy field, it was witness to a massive black smoke-filled cloud rising through the gray clouds it had parted…
Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 15 Jan 2013 10:56, edited 1 time in total.

vivek_ahuja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2330
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 16:58

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 15 Jan 2013 10:24

BARSHONG
NORTHERN BHUTAN
DAY 12 + 1320 HRS


“No…no no!” Vikram said as he staggered over.
He landed on the ground next to where Pathanya was laying on his back, covered in dust and his body covered in bruises. He was bleeding out of the corner of his mouth as a trail of blood rolled down his cheeks. His leg was crushed under a rock that had landed on it.
“Look at me, boss! Sir! Look. At. Me!” he shouted as he moved Pathanya’s head over with his hands.
Pathanya’s eyes moved slightly as he coughed up some more blood trying to speak.

Okay…he’s alive. For now!

Vikram looked at his leg and tried moving the rock away, but he didn’t have the strength. Vikram looked around for something to use as leverage to push it away and jerked his head east and froze at what he saw. A large brown cloud of dust was rising into the blue sky above, drifting east and away from them. He looked down and at the base of it he saw that the valley was filled with the dust cloud like water filling up the cracks.

Barshong was gone. And so were the 11TH Para Battalion soldiers.

He was still staring at the rising cloud when he heard rustling behind him and turned to see Tarun kneeling beside him. He patted Vikram on the back and a mound of dust from his uniform fell because of it. Vikram pointed to the rock on Pathanya’s leg and together they pushed it aside, relieving the pressure on the leg. Instantly Pathanya cried in agony as his body felt the severed leg once again…

“We need to get him out of here!” Tarun said quietly as he tried.
“Where’s your backpack?” Vikram asked.
“Heaven knows. I don’t even have my weapon on me anymore!” he replied, kneeling beside the Captain.
Shit!

Vikram looked around and saw a radio laying half buried in gravel a dozen meters away. He got up on his feet and ran over to it, sliding in the gravel as he grabbed the speaker and brought it his ear.

“This is Spear-Two to any Juliet-Foxtrot-Bravo units! We are in need of immediate medical assistance west of Barshong! We have man in critical condition! Does anybody read? Over!”
He waited for several seconds but got no reply except static.

“Damn this thing! Is it even working?” he said to himself as he reached for the set and pulled it out of the gravel and dusted it off before flipping over the switches. He realized it had been knocked out by the force of the explosion. Tarun ran over to him.
“So what’s the deal?” he asked Vikram.

“No joy! We are on our own. Get the Captain ready to move. Use whatever you can find to close that leg wound. Seen any of the others?”
Tarun shook his head and pointed some distance away where Ravi lay motionless.

“Doesn’t matter,” Vikram replied, clearing the lump in his throat. “We have to move right now!”
“Where are we even going?” Tarun asked as Vikram got up and dusted his uniform and then walked over to pick up a Tavor rifle, checking its sights to see if everything was working.

“South,” Vikram replied. “We have to get to Thimpu or Dotanang. Or even some village that has a working telephone along the way. We have to get to the Battalion headquarters at Thimpu.”

Tarun glanced at the dust cloud rising thousands of feet in the air.
“If Thimpu still exists anymore…”
Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 15 Jan 2013 10:45, edited 2 times in total.

jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5214
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby jamwal » 15 Jan 2013 10:26

Nuke attack on military targets in Xinjiang ?

Is it possible to get a new thread to discuss this scenario ?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Singha » 15 Jan 2013 10:28

this thread should be fine. looks like we destroying PLAAF/PLA ability to move materials and men into the theater.

Misraji
BRFite
Posts: 401
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 11:53
Location: USA

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Misraji » 15 Jan 2013 10:47

^^^
Every time there is an escalation, Korla + 26th Air Division seems to bear the brunt of the Indian counter-attack.
Seems that there is a concerted effort to loosen the chinese grip on Tibet starting with PLAAFs surveillance + command/control.

We are expecting the Tibetans to rise up in arms, declare an independent nation and we recognize it?

--Ashish

PS: Where were Feng+Chen supposed to be at this particular time?

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby chaanakya » 15 Jan 2013 10:50

Last heard , they were going to Chengdu.

Anand K
BRFite
Posts: 1115
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 11:31
Location: Out.

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Anand K » 15 Jan 2013 10:52

IMHO besides the Turkestan targets a debilitating strike at a key transport node leading towards Qamdo AND a similar node on the Golmud-Lhasa line might be in order. That is, if preventing/destroying PLA reinforcements to Tibet is the objective. But I guess the objective is to send a message of resolve to the ChiComms rather than up the ante by nuking.... errrrr 400% Chinese areas like Sichuan and Qinghai:- "Let's play chicken! If you nuke our ally and our troops legally bound to protect them, then we nuke your armies in your illegal acquisitions..... and that also implies, if you nuke Barrackpore AFB, then we nuke the Chengdu HQ."

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1694
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Khalsa » 15 Jan 2013 11:19

Hey Vivek.

I thought the last + scenario post by you (before the ones page 82) said no nukes on chinese targets so who authorised these.
And the Special forces Pathanya, Vikram and Ravi.... is that a fall out from the two nukes that the chinese did manage to launch.

sorry having some issues with the continuation ... all due to us chatting and discussing on the previous two pages :-)

Nice writing once again

Misraji
BRFite
Posts: 401
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 11:53
Location: USA

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Misraji » 15 Jan 2013 11:21

chaanakya wrote:Last heard , they were going to Chengdu.

Thanku, Sirjee .. :)
Lucky a$$es.

--Ashish

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Sanku » 15 Jan 2013 11:24

vivek_ahuja wrote:As the center fuselage barrel of the KJ-2000 covered in slush rolled to a halt next to a demolished paddy field, it was witness to a massive black smoke-filled cloud rising through the gray clouds it had parted…


Yesss........

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Sanku » 15 Jan 2013 11:26

Anand K wrote:, if you nuke Barrackpore AFB, "


Well they already tried, they had launched 65+ nuclear missiles on India. Its only a miracle (yes very much so) in the story that they were restricted to only 2.

So I dont know what else there remains on the counter force escalation front.

Nitesh
BRFite
Posts: 902
Joined: 23 Mar 2008 22:22
Location: Bangalore
Contact:

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Nitesh » 15 Jan 2013 11:27

Was waiting for Buddha to smile. Now the question is that will Chinese back off, or this will spiral out of control. And we will see nukes getting lobbed on cities.

Anand K
BRFite
Posts: 1115
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 11:31
Location: Out.

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Anand K » 15 Jan 2013 11:32

Hmmm....

Perhaps they will seek to destroy our military and paramilitary bases in the NE and nuke Siliguri. With our Positive Coercion forces in the NE severly mauled like that, effective immediate control of the NE states.... and in the immediate future might be difficult. But if Bangladesh obliges we can re-route through Dinajpur, Rajshahi and Jessore. Similarly, they can hit our two links with Kashmir as well.
:?:
Last edited by Anand K on 15 Jan 2013 11:39, edited 1 time in total.

Anand K
BRFite
Posts: 1115
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 11:31
Location: Out.

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Anand K » 15 Jan 2013 11:35

I remember Brig. Vijay Nair's book listing all major bridges and rail junctions of TSP for tactical nuke/conv. debilitating strikes..... and also the barrages & head works. Weaken the internal control by these means in a fcuked up 400% problematic construct like Pakistan, war fighting for the affected becomes much more difficult. Similarly in the NE where we DO face some problems this sorta action makes things costly...

I remember old discussions about the Sunderji-Brig. Nair clashes with regard to finishing off TSP. Whatever happened to the good Brigadier?

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby chaanakya » 15 Jan 2013 11:40

Korla was already posted previously
Here is Uxxaktal and perhaps KJ2000 H-6M Bomber on the tarmac with other J11s

Image

Ok we are going after targets in China rather than in Tibet.
I think Golmud and Qinghai are major logistics hub for PLA. Golmud AFB has already been taken out. @nd Arty Missiles launch pads North west of Golmud, quite a few of them just like Delhinga are already out. So it makes sense in a tit for tat. But Urumqi is still there.




Edited as corrected by Vivek.
Last edited by chaanakya on 15 Jan 2013 12:09, edited 1 time in total.

vivek_ahuja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2330
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 16:58

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 15 Jan 2013 11:56

Khalsa wrote:I thought the last + scenario post by you (before the ones page 82) said no nukes on chinese targets so who authorised these.
And the Special forces Pathanya, Vikram and Ravi.... is that a fall out from the two nukes that the chinese did manage to launch.

sorry having some issues with the continuation ... all due to us chatting and discussing on the previous two pages :-)

Nice writing once again


That's one of the problems posting one or two scenes at a time. All literary devices go for a toss from an author standpoint. Practically speaking, in the novel you all will be able to simply turn the pages to find out who said what and why certain inexplicable actions took place contrary to your expectations.

Alas, I am unable to do so here and maintain the same dramatic effect.

For now all I can say is that the scene you are referring to was simply the discussion. Who's to say what was finally decided? Notice that I leave certain scenes abruptly to maintain the break-neck speed-reading style. So please indulge me and enjoy the ride. Everything will be explained in due course. :)

That said, I am amazed to see the level of discussion here in the last few days. The enthusiasm is good motivation for me as I simulate and collect data for the upcoming 2025 sequel to this scenario. :twisted:

-Vivek
Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 15 Jan 2013 12:11, edited 1 time in total.

vivek_ahuja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2330
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 16:58

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 15 Jan 2013 12:00

chaanakya wrote:Here is Uxxaktal and perhaps KJ2000 on the tarmac with other J11s


That's not a KJ-2000, its 36th Bomber Division H-6M.

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby chaanakya » 15 Jan 2013 12:07

Thanks will correct

Here is cave complex at Urumqi

Image

k prasad
BRFite
Posts: 800
Joined: 21 Oct 2007 17:38
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Contact:

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby k prasad » 15 Jan 2013 12:46

Vivek-ji... Yeh Dil Maange more, more, more, more... jaldi jaldi pleej :-D.

I'm here at work refreshing the page every 2 minutes to check if you've posted something new :-P .

dipak
BRFite
Posts: 216
Joined: 31 Dec 2008 19:18

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby dipak » 15 Jan 2013 13:09

k prasad wrote:Vivek-ji... Yeh Dil Maange more, more, more, more... jaldi jaldi pleej :-D.

I'm here at work refreshing the page every 2 minutes to check if you've posted something new :-P .


Exactly same here .. :mrgreen:

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1694
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Khalsa » 15 Jan 2013 14:01

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Khalsa wrote:I thought the last + scenario post by you (before the ones page 82) said no nukes on chinese targets so who authorised these.
And the Special forces Pathanya, Vikram and Ravi.... is that a fall out from the two nukes that the chinese did manage to launch.

sorry having some issues with the continuation ... all due to us chatting and discussing on the previous two pages :-)

Nice writing once again


That's one of the problems posting one or two scenes at a time. All literary devices go for a toss from an author standpoint. Practically speaking, in the novel you all will be able to simply turn the pages to find out who said what and why certain inexplicable actions took place contrary to your expectations.

Alas, I am unable to do so here and maintain the same dramatic effect.

For now all I can say is that the scene you are referring to was simply the discussion. Who's to say what was finally decided? Notice that I leave certain scenes abruptly to maintain the break-neck speed-reading style. So please indulge me and enjoy the ride. Everything will be explained in due course. :)

That said, I am amazed to see the level of discussion here in the last few days. The enthusiasm is good motivation for me as I simulate and collect data for the upcoming 2025 sequel to this scenario. :twisted:

-Vivek



Thanks for the explanation Vivek. I am enjoying the ride and some ride it is my friend. This kind of writing is par excellence.
Once again looking forward to the book being relased.

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby chaanakya » 15 Jan 2013 14:51

vivek_ahuja wrote:
chaanakya wrote:Here is Uxxaktal and perhaps KJ2000 on the tarmac with other J11s


That's not a KJ-2000, its 36th Bomber Division H-6M.

Located two KJ2000 at Dingxin. It is a major base going by the number of JF fighters and Helicopters parked there in timeline imagery. This one is taken in 2011.

Image

Here is another image from Dingxin taken in 2006.

Image

Perhaps you could have selected Dingxin instead of Uxxatal.
Last edited by chaanakya on 15 Jan 2013 15:03, edited 1 time in total.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8102
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby nachiket » 15 Jan 2013 14:54

vivek_ahuja wrote:
chaanakya wrote:Here is Uxxaktal and perhaps KJ2000 on the tarmac with other J11s


That's not a KJ-2000, its 36th Bomber Division H-6M.

And those fighters look more like J-8s than J-11s.

k prasad
BRFite
Posts: 800
Joined: 21 Oct 2007 17:38
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Contact:

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby k prasad » 15 Jan 2013 15:18

Perhaps you could have selected Dingxin instead of Uxxatal.


Chaanakya-saar, Google maps gaaru tells me that Dingxin is about 2000 km away from delhi as the crow (or missile) flies. Perhaps that might've been a factor? Although Vivek saar would be able to tell us better. Sounds like the present round of nuke retaliation appears to be theatre oriented, to destroy chinese capacity in Xinjiang and Tibet. Lets see where it goes from here.

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby chaanakya » 15 Jan 2013 16:06

k prasad wrote:
Perhaps you could have selected Dingxin instead of Uxxatal.


Chaanakya-saar, Google maps gaaru tells me that Dingxin is about 2000 km away from delhi as the crow (or missile) flies. Perhaps that might've been a factor? Although Vivek saar would be able to tell us better. Sounds like the present round of nuke retaliation appears to be theatre oriented, to destroy chinese capacity in Xinjiang and Tibet. Lets see where it goes from here.


Oho, dont take it seriously. Just filling the gap till posts rain again.

Korla and Uxxatal are near to each other and fortified Airbase with underground bunkers/hangers. Both have lot of sam support and nearby Radar station could also be spotted if you look carefully. Home to 110th Regiment ,37th Fighter Division . Comes under Lanzhou MR. It controls Aksai Chin area and hence deserves hammering IMO. Has Fighter Academy. SO lot of budding pilots are gone too.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Singha » 15 Jan 2013 16:15

do these airbases have dispersed HAS type chains of shelters like you see in indian bases like hindon or many others?

Cheen seems fond of big "ramstein" style aprons and impressive parade type lineups in a show of force to scare hostile imsats.

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby chaanakya » 15 Jan 2013 16:53

they are mostly going underground. And yes many places HAS Shelters are seen. Perhaps better than India. They are utilising their geography to the fullest in Mountainous terrain. Some Shelters are dug into the mountain side with openings both side leading to runway. Indian Shelters are mostly overground. If you want some pictures I can post.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby RamaY » 15 Jan 2013 22:27

I am glad nukes are used. This is very important posturing for a self-declared nuke power as India is not an official member of Big6.

Mere acquisition of a capability is not sufficient when it comes to power projection. It is one's ability to use that power in real war is also important, especially when the enemies are brazen asuras.

kancha
BRFite
Posts: 936
Joined: 20 Apr 2005 19:13

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby kancha » 15 Jan 2013 23:00

How about a Shakti III at the same time? Let the Budha smile once again and lay to rest any doubts about the Thermonuclear deterrent!

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4701
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Manish_Sharma » 16 Jan 2013 00:00

^^Shakti III just happened , loaded on a BM rising up , falling at the target 25 Machs the warhead has successfully exploded !!!

:twisted:

Har Har Mahadev

vivek_ahuja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2330
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 16:58

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby vivek_ahuja » 16 Jan 2013 00:11

k prasad wrote:
Perhaps you could have selected Dingxin instead of Uxxatal.


Chaanakya-saar, Google maps gaaru tells me that Dingxin is about 2000 km away from delhi as the crow (or missile) flies. Perhaps that might've been a factor? Although Vivek saar would be able to tell us better. Sounds like the present round of nuke retaliation appears to be theatre oriented, to destroy chinese capacity in Xinjiang and Tibet. Lets see where it goes from here.


So its not so much based on targeting peacetime bases for these Divisions and their HQ but rather where they are at the present time of war. The 26th Air Division is NOT based at Korla and the 19th Fighter Division is not based at Urumqi and Wulumuqi airbases during peacetime. They were, however, brought into the theater and detachments split up (as mentioned in the posts). So attacking their peacetime bases means little if all of their aircraft are deployed at wartime airbases closer to the front.

Similar concept works on the Indian side as well. Note that in the first two days of the scenario, the No. 28 Squadron was majorly deployed at Leh to counter PLAAF threats from Kashgar, Korla, Urumqi, Hotien etc. The 28th is NOT deployed in such strength at Leh during peacetime.

If you also back up through the storyline to do an estimate of the locations of the Mirage squadrons, for example, you will find that they are flying and fighting far from their peacetime bases as well. Same for the Bisons etc. Only airbases such as Tezpur, Jorhat etc form both peacetime and wartime operational bases. There are a lot more of these on the Indian side than on the Chinese side (examples from Chinese side being those airbases that host H-6s (Wugong) and Su-27s that have the range to fly and reach the theater from home bases. Even then its better to base them closer since it gives them greater endurance over combat areas). Most PLAAF airbases in western China remain purely as deployment bases because of their inability to permanently deploy regiments all year around (read: not cost effective). They do, however, host a large number of cheaper trainer aircraft and first and second generation fighters on the last legs of their life.

-Vivek

Misraji
BRFite
Posts: 401
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 11:53
Location: USA

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Misraji » 16 Jan 2013 02:01

Vivek Saar,

Could you post some more material on the deliberations behind the use of nukes?

Unlike most folks here (given by the vociferous response to posts calling for non-usage of nukes), I thoroughly dislike Nukes as weapons of war.
These are weapons that act as equalizers w.r.t conventional weapons imbalance and thus robs one of a clean victory.

Not to mention the fact that I don't fancy a fight unto death with Indian civilian lives, millions of them.
So I would think there would have been a lot of deliberation on the target set, expected casualty and response to further strikes etc.

--Ashish

PS: If its in the book, then we will obviously wait ... :)
Last edited by Misraji on 16 Jan 2013 07:00, edited 1 time in total.

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4701
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Manish_Sharma » 16 Jan 2013 03:57

^^You didn't show such chhattpatahat when chinese were hitting us with nukes , nor did you express any allergies to nukes then............ why need explanation for legitimate response from Bharat?

Little yellow men launched massive nuclear attack on us , we are responding in the interest of mankind , that if somebody launches nukes they can't get away from paying the price.

_______________________________________________________

I hope the second one hits near 3 gorges dam poisoning it , also the blast will wipe out S 300 batteries around it. This way chinese know if they don't surrender than Agony-3 with a bigger warhead can take the damned Dam out. :twisted:

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby RamaY » 16 Jan 2013 04:10

Misraji is Nehruisque Gandheyavadi of MMS variety :)

He thinks Chinese should have better Hunanrights than the flora-fona in South China sea :rotfl:

What next Hunanrights for Pakis :eek:

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4701
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Manish_Sharma » 16 Jan 2013 05:20

RamaY jee even Gandhi jee had blessed the first 3 bombers that went to bomb porkiland. Gandhi jee stood outside Birla House and pilots brought them as much down as they could, Gandhi jee raised his right hand and blessed them only then these bombers turned went ahead and bombed the suaristan fauj !!! 8)

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Singha » 16 Jan 2013 08:21

I think its only by a miracle that out of 65 planned launches of DF-15/DF-21 with nuke warheads , only 2 landed and that too in bhutan. counterforce plays against road mobile TELARs in mountainous/vast terrain using only conventional warheads is a low margin game in my opinion even with near realtime GMTI sensors (how powerful can be the small heron sensor?). missile prep and fire time from high readiness condition is only around 15 mins, same as the transit time of A2/A1 from north india to reach there.

imo in a real war we'd be LUCKY to get away by destroying maybe 30% of the planned launches .... so around 40 nukes would already have hit major indian military bases and communication hubs.

if we want eye:eye response, we would be very warranted now in unleashing atleast that number on chinese mil and logistic targets in TAR, sinkiang, and the feeder areas in gansu, qinghai and further east....throw in a couple of well populated towns as well as a revenge for bhutan.

any PM of india who doesnt do his duty to defend his country in a measured way is unfit for the chair, should be deposed by the CCS and packed off to a govt bungalow to write his memoirs. sometimes a "general liu" is needed to stiffen weak bones even in India!

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7419
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby disha » 16 Jan 2013 08:59

^^^ Taking out a satellite itself should be construed as start of nuclear hostilities. In Vivekji's scenario there is a lucky break where the Chicom is deluded thinking that taking out the satellite has bought chicom time. What happens if the chicoms think that the Indians will launch as soon as the satellite is lost? Why would they wait a long time, they can as well coordinate in such a way that taking a satellite out followed immediately by nuke launch.

It is author's right to imagine a scenario, however the option of chicom hanging around with their counter-value and counter-force option in a bliss because of a satellite taken out is the least likely.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby Singha » 16 Jan 2013 09:34

indeed. Gen Liu and his boys did not strike me as careless, MMSian or underfunded. they have pick of litter in terms of infra, hardened caves, training cycles, weather radars, C3I links and pretty much run a parallel army to the PLA. they report only to the big bosses and not to the PLA zonal commanders. like the waffen SS and the gestapo they can and will ride roughshod over more reasonable people if they want to.

they are the praetorian guard, the MIB, the first, last and only line of defence.

I feel they would generally have organic S300 support as well, which can detect and take out UAV/recce a/c. S300 was designed to be a highly mobile system as shows in the kind of MAZ vehicles used. or atleast a MRSAM and SRSAM units attached for 25km bubble

just a suggestion - maybe in the book have around 15-20 missiles get through and strike targets in india, both leakers from the areas that were struck and some from another couple units that went feral and undetected further west in the taklamakan southern fringes. that would make it less glib and tom clancyesque...I dont think even the Qa Khan has the resources to track launch prep over an area as vast as TAR + Sinkiang...he can ofcourse detect the heat plumes as they rise up (or so it is claimed). Qa Khan had to shit bricks tracking a few iraqi scud launchers near highways in western iraq and was relegated to having orbiting F-15E randomly drop a bomb every few mins just to let the hidden scud crews know they would be hounded if they launched. maybe the powerful Ghawk UAV has solved that problem now though of wide area GMTI surveillance.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby RamaY » 16 Jan 2013 09:54

GD,

While I agree that missile launcher destruction was a very lucky venture, I dont think the 2nd artillary group would have its own S300, especially after the 10 days of war of attrition. If they had an extra s300, it would have saved their Airforce division thus stopping this escalation to begin with.

More over given Liu's over confidence over Indian dhimmitude, he would have spared that S300 to the others if he had.

jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5214
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Postby jamwal » 16 Jan 2013 10:15

Misraji wrote:Vivek Saar,

Could you post some more material on the deliberations behind the use of nukes?

Unlike most folks here (given by the vociferous response to posts calling for non-usage of nukes), I thoroughly dislike Nukes as weapons of war.
These are weapons that act as equalizers w.r.t conventional weapons imbalance and thus robs one of a clean victory.

Not to mention the fact that I don't fancy a fight unto death with Indian civilian lives, millions of them.
So I would think there would have been a lot of deliberation on the target set, expected casualty and response to further strikes etc.

--Ashish



Nukes have already been used, 1000s of Indians and even more Bhutanese lives have already been lost due to use of nukes in a war and he is still contemplating the strategic and moral rationale of nuclear weapons. Torn between :rotfl: and :roll: and :(( .

Personal dislikes and moralities must not be used in matters of state.
If nuclear weapons are meant to be a deterrent, then the deterrence has already failed. Why is it too hard to grasp this simple fact ? Only option according to your preferences is to surrender and roll over because Chinese still have 100s of nukes and will again use them. Strikes by conventional warhead equipped Agnis wiped out only a part of Chinese nukes. In case the war goes on, they will use DF-31 instead of DF-21s or maybe some other missile or maybe planes. Once the threshold is crossed, there is no turning back. A nuclear strike must be replied in kind. What's the use of spending billions every year on a nuclear deterrent and formulating strategies, doctrines etc. if you cower in a deep, dark place when time comes to use them. You don't go in to a fight if you are unwilling to take hits.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: sanjayc and 72 guests