Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

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K_Rohit
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by K_Rohit »

Bala Vignesh wrote:As far as my understanding goes, the dornier 228's are used to patrol areas just off the coastline of india. These cannot go out to beyond hundred and fifty kilometers of the coast line, where as the LRMP's go out as far as 600 kms out to sea, conduct a patrol and come back.

gurus please correct me if i am wrong.
Range of Do228s on full payload is much more ~1000 Km. Why would we not utilize them to full capacity? With a good radar, they will be a good asset?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do ... 228-212.29
Bala Vignesh
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Bala Vignesh »

K_Rohit wrote: Range of Do228s on full payload is much more ~1000 Km. Why would we not utilize them to full capacity? With a good radar, they will
be a good asset?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do ... 228-212.29
Rohit,
The max range and operational radius are two different entities, and what counts here is the operational radius of the aircraft. The bird has to spend some time in the patrol area and then return to base. So if we send it out to 500kms or so, then it won't have time on station to actually patrol an area.
But if you reduce it to 250 kms. It can stay there for another 20-30 minutes on patrol and then return to base.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Shubham »

Bala Vignesh wrote:
K_Rohit wrote: Range of Do228s on full payload is much more ~1000 Km. Why would we not utilize them to full capacity? With a good radar, they will
be a good asset?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do ... 228-212.29
Rohit,
The max range and operational radius are two different entities, and what counts here is the operational radius of the aircraft. The bird has to spend some time in the patrol area and then return to base. So if we send it out to 500kms or so, then it won't have time on station to actually patrol an area.
But if you reduce it to 250 kms. It can stay there for another 20-30 minutes on patrol and then return to base.
also in addition to that, you need to cater for primary as well as secondary diversions, in case of any emergencies. That also will reduce the operational radius from the max range.

There are fancy terms like Thirsty, Bingo, Joker which are used a guidelines during mission planning.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by aniket »

Does anybody know what is the current condition of military presence in the Lakshwadeep Islands ?
Is there like a Tri- services command there like the Andaman and Nicobar Command or are there just radar stations with outposts ?
shiv
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by shiv »

Shubham wrote: There are fancy terms like Thirsty, Bingo, Joker which are used a guidelines during mission planning.
Let SDREs not be misinformed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brevity_code
This is a list of American standardized brevity code words.
There is no information that the IAF uses these terms.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Drishyaman »

What should the optimum altitude and speed of the tanker for best range and quick refill during Air to Air refuelling?
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Manish_Sharma »

When fighter aircraft is carrying fuel tanks, which fuel is used up first? The fuel carried in inbuilt tank, or the external tanks hanging underneath the aircraft?
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by darshhan »

Manish_Sharma wrote:When fighter aircraft is carrying fuel tanks, which fuel is used up first? The fuel carried in inbuilt tank, or the external tanks hanging underneath the aircraft?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drop_tank
The primary disadvantage with drop tanks is that they impose a drag penalty on the aircraft carrying them. External fuel tanks will also increase the moment of inertia, thereby reducing roll rates for air combat maneuvers. A rule of thumb is that only about half the capacity of a streamlined drop tank actually goes towards increasing the aircraft's overall range, the rest going to overcome the added drag and weight of the tank itself. Drag in this sense varies with the square of the aircraft's speed. The use of drop tanks also reduces the number of external hardpoints available for weapons, and increases the aircraft's radar signature, both problematic for modern tactical aircraft.

Usually the fuel in the drop tanks is consumed first, and only when all the fuel in the drop tanks has been used, the fuel selector is turned on the airplane's internal tanks.

Some modern combat aircraft use conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) instead of or in addition to conventional external fuel tanks. CFTs produce less drag and do not take up external hardpoints, however as a result some versions can only be removed on the ground.

The Matra JL-100 is a special hybrid drop tank and rocket pack; it combines a rocket launcher in front (with 19× SNEB 68 mm (2.7 in) rockets) and 250 litres (66 USgal) of fuel behind into one single aerodynamically-shaped pod for mounting on combat aircraft such as the Dassault Mirage IIIs and English Electric Lightnings.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by shiv »

Drishyaman wrote:What should the optimum altitude and speed of the tanker for best range and quick refill during Air to Air refuelling?
Not too much information on Google chacha but there is some. About 20-25000 feet and 350 knots (600 kmph). If other modes are used I am not aware of it.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by shiv »

Manish_Sharma wrote:When fighter aircraft is carrying fuel tanks, which fuel is used up first? The fuel carried in inbuilt tank, or the external tanks hanging underneath the aircraft?
I think the way it goes is like this. The aircraft can only use its internal tanks - so as the internal tanks are emptied the wing tank fuel is transferred into the internal tanks. I am not sure if this is automatic or manual. Maybe either. In a combat situation what this amounts to is that external tanks are emptied first allowing them to be jettisoned if the need arises.

Typo corrected: meant external, typed internal
Last edited by shiv on 07 Oct 2011 09:48, edited 1 time in total.
Bala Vignesh
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Bala Vignesh »

^^I believe that the wet pylons have plumbing that connects the drop tanks to transfer pumps which transfers the fuel from the drop tanks to the main tank/wing tanks when required..
Gurulog, correct me if i am wrong.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Drishyaman »

shiv wrote: Not too much information on Google chacha but there is some. About 20-25000 feet and 350 knots (600 kmph). If other modes are used I am not aware of it.
Thank you Shiv ji :)
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by shiv »

Bala Vignesh wrote:^^I believe that the wet pylons have plumbing that connects the drop tanks to transfer pumps which transfers the fuel from the drop tanks to the main tank/wing tanks when required..
Gurulog, correct me if i am wrong.
brfite Abhibhushan has a description of this business in the Gnat in his blog
http://tkstales.wordpress.com/2011/06/0 ... -aircraft/
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by neerajb »

IIRC somebody posted an article on MiG-21s fueling system or I read it somewhere. The various tanks are pressurized with bleed air from the engine. The drop tanks are connected to internal tanks and not to the engine directly. The priority of fuel usage is decided by pressurizing the different fuel tanks with different pressure of air i.e. highest pressure in the drop tanks to empty it first. All the info is too blurry in my mind, so FWIW.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by neerajb »

Found the link : http://www.topedge.com/panels/aircraft/ ... t/fuel.htm
The pressurization system consists of a compressed bleed air which is fed to each of the eleven tanks. The pressure varies from tank to tank, highest pressure being bled to the BDT followed by the WT's and the FT's respectively. The system works under the principal that the fuel under highest pressure is transferred first. Two auxiliary fuel pumps are present in FT-3 and FT-4 and fuel flow is aided by an engine driven fuel pump tanks FT-1 and FT-3 are key to the operation of the system, FT-1 being a flow control unit and Ft-3 being the only tank from which fuel is transferred directly to the engine.
The system pressurizes itself as soon as engine bleed air is present and initial fuel (about 70...100 liters) is taken only from Group-2 (FT-1...3). FT-1 incorporates pressurization float valves (#10, 11) which activate the fuel cock (13) as soon as fuel level in FT-1 drops 70...100 liters. The fuel cock is opened by the pressure control system which is directly linked to float valves. This sub system consists of a series of pressure lines which sense changing pressure at the float valves thereby controlling fuel transfer from the WT's and the BDT. The highest pressure is bled to the BDT thereby being the first tank consumed. Once empty fuel is transferred from the WT's to FT-3. This is accomplished by bleeding the next lowest pressure to the wing tanks. Fuel the flows through check valves (9) to the fuel cock (13) into FT-2, transferred to FT-3 and then pumped to engine. The consumption of fuel contained in Group-3 (FT-4...6) occurs in much the same way as the WT's except that transfer to FT- 3 is aided by an auxiliary fuel pump (5). Safety features include a network of overflow lines connecting Group-2,3, WT's and the BDT. The pressure limiters are also incorporated to prevent overboosting of the system. Emergency jettison of the BDT is done pyrotechnically.


Cheers....
Last edited by neerajb on 07 Oct 2011 17:25, edited 1 time in total.
Mayuresh
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Mayuresh »

On the drop tanks, my best guess is that the pilot can decide which tanks to use first. Consider the foll scenario:
A flight of Rambhas takes off from Pune with 2 drop tanks each and some ammunition (a-a, a-g). Mission is to approach Gwadar through the sea route, bomb the port, release a Brahmos that'll hit somewhere in the mainland (say Quetta) and come back to Pune. It will meet a tanker over the Arabian sea near the Konkan coast latitude.
Now, Rambhas need to fly on internal fuel from Pune to Arabian sea so that they can refuel (I don't think you can refuel the drop tanks in air), then use fuel from drop tanks to get near Gwadar, jettison the tanks, bomb the port (some Rambhas to provide air-cover for incoming F-16s), one Rambha needs to release its Brahmos and then all come back on internal fuel to Pune / meet tanker over Indian Airspace. So the pilots needs to have the flexibility to choose between the fuel sources and determine which one to use first.

Ofcourse, I may be wrong and it may indeed be possible to refuel the drop tanks in air. Then the entire discussion is pointless because fuel from drop tanks will always be given usage priority over internal fuel so as to be able to jettison the tanks at will with minimum range penalties
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by abhinavjo »

Do our Su-30 MKI's use drop tanks? I haven't seen a picture of it anywhere
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by shiv »

abhinavjo wrote:Do our Su-30 MKI's use drop tanks? I haven't seen a picture of it anywhere
I think Rambhas fly on internal fuel onlee. No drop tanks in any photo I have seen and no refs to drop tanks on Googal chacha
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by shiv »

Mayuresh wrote: A flight of Rambhas takes off from Pune with 2 drop tanks each and some ammunition (a-a, a-g). Mission is to approach Gwadar through the sea route, bomb the port, release a Brahmos that'll hit somewhere in the mainland (say Quetta) and come back to Pune
Mayureshji, fire up bhu-Googal or Googal-dharti and you wll find that Quetta is more than 550 km or more from anywhere near the Pakhana coast. The Rambha will have to fly 250 plus km into Pakistan and back to hit Quetta with Brahmos. However Quetta is just 400 odd Km from the Rajasthan border. Total journey inside Pakhanastan will be 200 km from Rajasthan and 500 Km from Gwadar or coast.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Mayuresh »

shiv wrote:Mayureshji, fire up bhu-Googal or Googal-dharti and you wll find that Quetta is more than 550 km or more from anywhere near the Pakhana coast. The Rambha will have to fly 250 plus km into Pakistan and back to hit Quetta with Brahmos. However Quetta is just 400 odd Km from the Rajasthan border. Total journey inside Pakhanastan will be 200 km from Rajasthan and 500 Km from Gwadar or coast.
Shiv saar and other saars,

Hypothetical scenario onlee :) If you wish,
1. Replace Brahmos with Nirbhay
2. Replace Rambha with Jaguar

My point is, if an a/c has both drop tank attachment capabilities and in-flight refueling capabilities, the pilot should have an option of using whichever fuel s/he thinks is best suited for the mission based on whether a refueler is around or not.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by nakul »

Tanking near the border allows the ingressing plane to spend more time in pakistan. A plane without inflight refuelling would consume a certain amount of fuel reaching the border which could be better spent in pakistan airspace...
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by shiv »

Mayuresh wrote: My point is, if an a/c has both drop tank attachment capabilities and in-flight refueling capabilities, the pilot should have an option of using whichever fuel s/he thinks is best suited for the mission based on whether a refueler is around or not.
Oh I am sure you are right. Except that a lot of these things are carefully pre planned and not left to chance. As far as possible.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by neerajb »

Mayuresh wrote:My point is, if an a/c has both drop tank attachment capabilities and in-flight refueling capabilities, the pilot should have an option of using whichever fuel s/he thinks is best suited for the mission based on whether a refueler is around or not.
Mayuresh wrote:Ofcourse, I may be wrong and it may indeed be possible to refuel the drop tanks in air. Then the entire discussion is pointless because fuel from drop tanks will always be given usage priority over internal fuel so as to be able to jettison the tanks at will with minimum range penalties
You are basing the whole arguement on your above mentioned assumption which, a cursory google search says, is wrong. IMO any pilot would like to fly in clean configuration without any external fuel tank generated drag and g load limitations.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Drishyaman »

shiv wrote:Mayureshji, fire up bhu-Googal or Googal-dharti and you wll find that Quetta is more than 550 km or more from anywhere near the Pakhana coast. The Rambha will have to fly 250 plus km into Pakistan and back to hit Quetta with Brahmos. However Quetta is just 400 odd Km from the Rajasthan border. Total journey inside Pakhanastan will be 200 km from Rajasthan and 500 Km from Gwadar or coast.
:rotfl:
I just could n't stop myself laughing.
The scenario which immediately came up to my mind was -
"A Ramba Pilot wakes up early in the morning, takes a "lota", goes to Quetta in Pakhanastan drops his belongings and comes back in a very relaxed mood "

NB : Well double meaning intended.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Boreas »

nakul wrote:Tanking near the border allows the ingressing plane to spend more time in pakistan. A plane without inflight refuelling would consume a certain amount of fuel reaching the border which could be better spent in pakistan airspace...
totally agree, after dropping bombs it’s always a good idea to go for a little sightseeing along countryside.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Boreas »

shiv wrote:
Mayuresh wrote: A flight of Rambhas takes off from Pune with 2 drop tanks each and some ammunition (a-a, a-g). Mission is to approach Gwadar through the sea route, bomb the port, release a Brahmos that'll hit somewhere in the mainland (say Quetta) and come back to Pune
Mayureshji, fire up bhu-Googal or Googal-dharti and you wll find that Quetta is more than 550 km or more from anywhere near the Pakhana coast. The Rambha will have to fly 250 plus km into Pakistan and back to hit Quetta with Brahmos. However Quetta is just 400 odd Km from the Rajasthan border. Total journey inside Pakhanastan will be 200 km from Rajasthan and 500 Km from Gwadar or coast.
:rotfl:
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by nakul »

Boreas wrote: totally agree, after dropping bombs it’s always a good idea to go for a little sightseeing along countryside.
its never a bad idea to look for targets u may have missed on the first run or have extra fuel for contingencies. anyway, with the IAF network coming up, any plane can act as eyes for the system. afterall, any intel is good intel
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Boreas »

See for making a second pass over the target, there is no need of a full tank at border. They can make more then one pass without that, and mki can make many more with its huge internal tanks.

As far as intelligence gathering is considered, Think by yourself, say a plane is sent to bomb Mushaf AB, it went, dropped bombs and then the pilot thinks lets collect some intelligence!

First ques which way to go - up north towards Rawalpindi and Peshawar or go south to Multan or Lahore.

Say it decided to go north. How will other IAF planes assigned to execute some mission in that area will handle presence of this surprise entry?

How will this guy handle all the other aircraft activities in the area. Will it engage other enemy aircrafts it encounter while doing so? Should it? Can it?

How will IAF command centre handle a situation in which most of the planes after finishing there missions will start moving towards random locations instead of returning to there bases. Will they be able to plan things correctly? with some certainty?

How is this situation better than the case in which IAF sends a plane to bombard something, it goes there does its job and comes back. And in case IAF needs intel it sends dedicated reece missions who are better equipped for the purpose and can spend as much time as desired by IAF.

Such random activities will create chaos, which no commander will desire. Let me quote what shiv said few posts above -
shiv wrote:Oh I am sure you are right. Except that a lot of these things are carefully pre planned and not left to chance. As far as possible.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by neerajb »

This PPT created by an HAL trainee ( :) ) says that MKI has 6 tanks (Slide no eight) with the tank number 2 (just in front of the two engines) acting as the service tank feeding the two engines directly. So normal load of 5+ tons of fuel means all fuselage tanks i.e. 1, 2, 4 and 5 are full. In fuel overload configuration with 9+ tons of fuel onboard, the wingtip tanks are used as well (3 left and 3 right).

http://www.authorstream.com/Presentatio ... ystem-hal/

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by nakul »

The tanker gives better planning options to the decision makers
Boreas wrote:First ques which way to go - up north towards Rawalpindi and Peshawar or go south to Multan or Lahore.

Say it decided to go north. How will other IAF planes assigned to execute some mission in that area will handle presence of this surprise entry?
The direction and region are decided at the planning stage itself. They know the distance that the plane can cover on its own fuel. So, it allows them to choose a longer route rather than a straight dash in and out (going around air defences etc.)

No, it won't suddenly occur to the pilot to choose his direction of movement. The controllers on the ground can call him back or send him to support other IAF planes in the area, if need be. The extra fuel goes a long way in providing this flexibility to mission planners.
Boreas wrote:How will this guy handle all the other aircraft activities in the area. Will it engage other enemy aircrafts it encounter while doing so? Should it? Can it?
It depends on the situation in the air. A Su-30 MKI with AA munitions can serve AA roles for longer period. Without refuelling, the plane will have to make a dash towards India much earlier, making it a nice plump target for Paki F-16s on its tail. Refuelling will allow the planes to stay in air much longer. That extra time could be the difference between life and death.
Boreas wrote:How will IAF command centre handle a situation in which most of the planes after finishing there missions will start moving towards random locations instead of returning to there bases. Will they be able to plan things correctly? with some certainty?

How is this situation better than the case in which IAF sends a plane to bombard something, it goes there does its job and comes back. And in case IAF needs intel it sends dedicated reece missions who are better equipped for the purpose and can spend as much time as desired by IAF.
There is no randomness here. All the orders will be from ground control/AWACS depending on the situation. Tanking gives you more flexibility, allows more options and gives planes with AA munitions to deal with foes for extended periods.

War is a fluid situation and is not always a situation of go in > bomb > come back home. Any resistance met along the way adds to the fuel requirements. The pilot can choose to engage at will as long as he has the necessary fuel. You might argue that the extra fuel will not help but reaching the target through indirect routes will not spare a lot of fuel and moreover, every engagement is a calculated risk, you never know how much time is needed to deal with which contingency. Again, fuel is the lifeline for a pilot. If need be, he can be tanked close to the border rather than landing which my or may not be possible.
Boreas wrote: Such random activities will create chaos, which no commander will desire. Let me quote what shiv said few posts above -
shiv wrote: Oh I am sure you are right. Except that a lot of these things are carefully pre planned and not left to chance. As far as possible.
No one likes to leave to chance but you control the war only as long as the enemy does not make his moves. In any war, undesired outcomes happen and they are accounted for while making planes. Surely, not everything goes according to plan. Its the side that controls this fluid nature to his adavantage comes out better. Thats why, we have AWACS, tankers, network-centricity and recon tools to deal with the changing scenario.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by atreya »

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Indian-Mi ... A.facebook

I did not know where else to post this piece of crap, published in the name of sarcasm and humour. I, personally, find the humor very distasteful.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by biswas »

^ I think it's a perfectly good humour piece.

We must learn to laugh at ourselves.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by atreya »

Well, OK, I agree that it doesn't have any malicious intentions. Indeed, the author made sure that no joke is made on the pilots. But the satire on Mig 21s 'crashing before they can ever be used' is demeaning. We all saw the NDTV feature which shows it is a perfectly capable flying machine, albeit old. It doesn't deserve this amount of mud flinging for its stellar service, don't you think? I was always a proponent of 'laughing at ourselves' and a good sense of humour, but I don't know why I am offended by this particular piece.
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Narad »

Hi. I am looking for shiv Ji's Post where he describes how Islamic factions will unite to fight external threats. In absence of external kaafir threat, they will fight amongst themselves, the more purer on less purer and so on. Idea was that pakis can never be in peace. (TTP will unite with PA to fight India. or else will fight with PA. shia+ sunni+ Qadiana will unite to kill hindu and christain, Shai+ sunni will kill Qadianais, sunnis will kill shais, likewise and so on. )

It was an excellent write up and I could not find using the search engine.

Can anyone help?
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Prasad »

The IA schedules many wargames/exercises in the desert regions predominantly. I suppose this is because that is one of the predominant battlefield types it will encounter in a possible future conflict. But has the IA conducted mountain warfare exercises? If not, why so?
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Guru log,
Is it possible to carry out mid course changes in the pinaka/ smerch rockets??
It would be of great help in trying to neutralize the advantage WLR's give to the enemy.
We will have to enhance the range of the rockets for the system to be eddective..
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by Shankar »

No mid course correction of pinaka smerch is possible as there is no vernier motors or on board flight computer as in missiles . These are essentially rocket boosted projectiles just like extended range shells of Bofors
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by shiv »

Bala Vignesh wrote:Guru log,
Is it possible to carry out mid course changes in the pinaka/ smerch rockets??
It would be of great help in trying to neutralize the advantage WLR's give to the enemy.
We will have to enhance the range of the rockets for the system to be eddective..
Bala - I am not the expert here (I am the herrow of zerrow on this subject) but I think there are two problems here.

AFAIK the WLR locates the invisible artillery shell and back calculates its origin and could feed coordinates to one's own artillery so that a salvo is let off (at best) within seconds against the launching artillery piece.

In the case of a rocket, the general direction of the launch platform would be visible and the radar would be able to track the source soon after the rocket becomes "visible" to radar. So any change of direction would be useful only before the rockets show up on an enemy WLR and the location of that radar may be unknown. Or else the Pinaka needs to take that WLR out first.

Secondly, I am not sure a WLR would be as useful against Pinaka/Smerch as against artillery. Let me say why I think so. I may be wrong. It's simply about range and mobility. SMERCH with a 70-90 km range can remain outside the range of enemy artillery. But even otherwise they are all truck mounted and can scoot seconds after launch, unlike artillery (unless the artillery is self propelled). Self propelled artillery of course can let off a few rounds and scoot. It's only static artillery pieces that would be at risk.
muktesh
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by muktesh »

Do we've any aircraft boneyard in india like the USAF's AMARG?
shiv
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Post by shiv »

muktesh wrote:Do we've any aircraft boneyard in india like the USAF's AMARG?
No
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