Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 20 Oct 2011 14:27

What is the difference between the holographic HUD (one seen on typhoon, raptor etc) and the one that we have on the LCA? Are there any plans/intent to manufacture holographic HUD anytime soon?

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 21 Oct 2011 01:20

Just wondering:

Our Phalcon AWACS is reputed to be able to detect a/c on the ground and distinguish them from ground clutter. Can we use it to search for the MIG-29 that crashed in Himachal Pradesh? I am guessing it should be able to pinpoint a mass of metal in a valley with not much human activity. Just wondering about the reason why the IAF isn't using it. I had asked a similar question when YSR Reddy's helicoptor had crashed, but was not able to get a satisfactory answer

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Oct 2011 01:29

^^ Because the hills are steep and the valley deep. When one stands 3 feet from a well and flashes a torch, the light shines only on the top 1ft of the well depth. Only when one is standing over or next to a well and flashes a torch will be be able to ascertain what lies inside the depth of the well.

And it is not possible for aircraft to overfly every valley

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Oct 2011 20:17

Mayuresh wrote:I am guessing it should be able to pinpoint a mass of metal in a valley with not much human activity.

Sadly it will not be a mass of metal any more. It will be pieces of burnt metal sitting among trees and bushes over a large area.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 22 Oct 2011 18:40

I have a noob question. Normally, to indicate the unit a soldier is serving in, the battalion number followed by the regiment name is written. For e.g. 15 Jat refers to the 15th Battalion from the Jat Regiment. Am I right?
Now, my query is, how do you write the same for a regiment which has a number in its name already? Like 1 Gorkha Rifles

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 22 Oct 2011 19:10

^^ In this case the unit will be referred as "unit number/parent regiment number".. For eg, 1st battalion of 1 Gorkha regiment will be written as 1/1 Gorkha and pronounced as One-One Gorkha... If its the 2nd battalion of the 8th Gorkha regiment, it'll be 2/8 Gorkha and pronounced Two-eighth Gorkha..

As told to me by a former Officer of 3rd Gorkha..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Oct 2011 10:50

Prithvi,

Before I answer about Nag, let us clarify some points - there are broadly two types of ATGM - one, which are manportable and others which have been developed for use by a dedicated platform like helicopters. Manportable examples are Milans, HOT, Javelin etc. Heavier versions are like Nag, Hellfire and TOW. The heavy category missiles are heavy with larger warheads. For example, Nag has been developed to be used from a dedicated platform while Hellfire is used only by Apaches. Hellfires are used by Apaches against all variety of targets - including buildings and fortified bunkers. In terms of multi-functionality, missile(s) come with different type of warheads for different type of scenarios. Earlier, the focus was anti-armor and missiles graduated from single to tandem warheads to defeat reactive bolt-on armor - plus, the overflight mode. But this is a limited feature and IIRC, comes in only Hellfire.

We used Milans in Kargil operations for taking out fortifications. But considering the price of an ATGM, these are not likely to be used that widely. IA uses the Gustav RL and RPO-Shmel with themobaric warhead for taking out fortified positions.

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 27 Oct 2011 21:29

A few years ago there was a sort of a text based war on on BR. Being a newbie and not too tech proficient i cant really find it. Can anyone tell me what was it all about?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 28 Oct 2011 09:12

A simple pooch.

What difference will 22 Apaches make for us considering we have such a long border with Pak and China. Shouldn't we have procured a larger number?

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 28 Oct 2011 10:26

AFAIK we would be attaching the Apache's to the Strike Corp Formations. These Helos can wreak havoc among large armored formations and Pakistan Army's armored formations are limited in no. So we don't need to spread them throughout the border. Infantry strafing and other Close support duties can be provided by cheaper platforms like LCH, Dhruv WSI-Rudra.
But in case we have a heavy duty tank war like Asal Uttar or Chawinda, having Apapches in the air can swing the tables in our favour.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 28 Oct 2011 10:53

Abhinavjo sir,
the war scenario is posted in the possible military scenarios thread in the mil history forum..

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 28 Oct 2011 11:02

@Bala
i know about the fictional mil scenarios. I was told there was a war game where some of BR member took roles like defense minister, Army chief. Has that happened? if not shouldn't we have something like that.
And i'm no sir, Just a newbie.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 29 Oct 2011 13:35

Leila-1 was the war game you are referring to. It was available in the archives till some time ago. I can't find it there anymore. Wonder if it has been deleted off the site?

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 29 Oct 2011 13:43

found it!
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... a-1-6.html

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 29 Oct 2011 14:48

^That's just the summary of the war game. I'm referring to the thread where the actual discussions took place. It was conducted for an hour to simulate the Indian response to a grave provocation from Pakistan. It was really interesting to read the deliberations. That thread was available in the archives till not so long. Maybe someone can help?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Oct 2011 17:57

rajanb wrote:A simple pooch.

What difference will 22 Apaches make for us considering we have such a long border with Pak and China. Shouldn't we have procured a larger number?

They will be used for special purposes, possibly in conjunction with other (non Apache) helos and aircraft. Popular US military mythology made it seem like we need 10-20 Apaches at one time hovering in mid air phyrring missiles at massed armor. Maybe that was the original intention for Apaches designed to take on a Soviet assault in Europe. The total number of Apaches ever built was just over 1000, with about 700 in service at any given time. But at the end of the cold war the USSR had 60,000 tanks and 70,000 armored personnel carriers. That is a 1:20 ratio of tanks to Apaches. Once the cold war ended the US had a humongous surplus of Apaches which were used in an insane fashion creating all hoe historic images tat have shaped our minds in the Apache discussion.

Just one or two Apaches with other helos for support can actually play havoc and tilt the balance on a battlefield. They have to be used judiciously.

Aditya Watts · Post by **Aditya Watts** » 29 Oct 2011 20:44

rajanb wrote:A simple pooch.

What difference will 22 Apaches make for us considering we have such a long border with Pak and China. Shouldn't we have procured a larger number?

Like the guru's have mentioned these machines can be assist in giving the necessary punch at the battlefield. I also know that these machines can for instance take out AA-units effectively due to their ability to 'cloak' in forests and they can emerge out of nowhere, totally surprising the enemy units.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Oct 2011 03:27

India will be the only country with the capability of sweeping the Poak infested jungle with American Apache followed by Russian Hinds and then loved by hundreds of Desi LCH and Rudras . The never ending line of Death Dishers from sky will be a sight behold . Last thing a Poak will see before going to Hades.
Heavy chopers are similar to the Mace of Bhim or Hanuman in destroying heavy armour.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Oct 2011 19:29

Cross post. Answer OT in original thread

Gaur wrote:
shiv wrote: Indeed. A good one. The infiltrators have NVGs, GPS systems and sophisticated radio sets, and the Indian Army in Kashmir operates under the restriction "Do not cause collateral civilian casualties".
Do you disapprove of this restriction? Or are you simply pointing one of the tough challenges faced by IA during CI ops?

Tough call. But I do think the Indian Army takes more casualties as a result, but gets better results in terms of cooperation from the population. The question would be "Better results than whom?". I think the Indian army has got better results than the US army in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as the Pakistani army in FATA in terms of quelling insurgency. Both those armies are struggling.

There is something to be said for being very discriminating about separating wheat from chaff. At an earlier time when this discussion came up - people who expressed this viewpoint on this forum were mocked by the statement "The US cares for its soldiers lives. That is why they use the best equipment, Reapers, Apaches and other stuff to take out the baddies from a distance" Clearly that was more rahrah USA than the truth. The US is losing troops and is nowhere near quelling the insurgency. And about the Pakistan army's scorched earth methods of fighting insurgency, the less said the better.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Oct 2011 19:57

^^
I agree. Ignoring civilian collateral damage may save more Soldiers in the short term, but it will result in incomparably more Army causalities in the longer run. One of the main factor for the relative stabilization of J&K is the intel received through locals. Also, one cannot discount the fact that majority of jawans in regiments such as JAKLI (a most reputable regiment which is always in the forefront in any conflict in that area) are local muslims, who would hardly be enthusiastic to give up their lives for the country if they have lost loved ones because of IA.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 01 Nov 2011 14:01

Replying to query from Transport Aircraft for IAF thread due OT issue:

Virendra wrote:Little OT:
DBO ALG which was closed in 1966 due to loosened soil consequent to an earthquake had been reactivated by IAF.
Can someone explain how the loose soil problem could've been solved? Or are they living with it as an occupational hazard?
A nice satellite view of DBO here - http://kuku.sawf.org/articles/50911.aspx

Also, there were talks of Nyoma ALG to be upgraded into fully fledged airbase. A proposal in this regard was taken up by MoD last year. Don't know what happened to that one.

Regards,
Virendra

Runways are specialized roads/pavement meant to take the impact and pressure of aircraft landing and taxiing on them repeatedly. The main concern is settlement of the runway portions due to the loads imposed. This becomes more acute concern in ALGs and FOBs where the runway is reinforced concrete with bitumen topping but most likely asphalt on stone and soil subgrade. For this reason a lot of soil improvement and site remediation measures are undertaken before the runway is laid. The loose soil can be compacted by a series of micro piles or even by putting boulders and then filling the spaces with good quality soil. All this is very common in civil infrastructure projects, so nothing to be awestruck! DBO will have undergone something similar as well before the An-32s began to land there.

Nyoma base upgradation is still a proposal under consideration and review.

member_20047 · Post by **member_20047** » 02 Nov 2011 13:38

Hello everyone...This is my first post in this prestigious forum & its related to indian military aviation. Please let me know if my perspective is correct.

I have repeatedly read here that since our neighbour will possess 5th generation(J20) stealth fighter in near future, we need to counter it by having our own stealth fighter. And this perspective is challenged again & again by Shiv arguing that for countering a sword we need a shield & not necessiraly a sword. I mostly agree with this viewpoint but just want to add some points from my side.

Let us assume that we have a J20 stealth fighter ingressing into our territory from Arunachal Pradesh. Now we may have primarily 3 scenarios here:-

1) The ingressing J20 aircraft is not detected at all till it reaches very near to the airbase, because of its superstealth characteristics. In this case, once we come to know about the attack we can send any of our fighter that is readily available & not necessarily a stealth fighter. So to counter a stealth aircraft in such situations effectively we need good long range radars along with good SAM systems.

2)Now lets say we have very effective long range radars & we were able to detect the intruder stealth aircraft. Lets assume we have two options here(ignoring SAM option), we can either send a sukhoi 30 mki fighter aircraft or a FGFA to intercept the intruder. IF we send the Sukhoi 30 Mki, it will detect the intruder with the help of direction from ground radar station, but there will be one disadvantage for su30- the intruder stealth aircraft can paint the su 30mki with its radar(& have a good missile lock) atleast somewhat prior to the su 30(because of stealth).In this case, it can either shoot an air to air missile or wil try to disengage & return.

3)In the third case, we decide to send FGFA itself. Again FGFA will find the intruder with the help from ground radar station. But in this case, we will have the advantage of surprise on our side. If we assume both FGFA & J20 have same stealth & radar parameters then both of them will have same detection range, however we will have prior information of enemy's position from ground station. So, our FGFA can engage & plan its course more effectively than the enemy fighter. Plus both the aircraft will face similar issues for attaining a good radar lock.

So, in my opinion though we must have good radar & early warning capabilities for countering Stealth aircraft, its always good to have stealth fighter in our own inventory.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Nov 2011 14:29

Prabal wrote:(ignoring SAM option),
<snip>
So, in my opinion though we must have good radar & early warning capabilities for countering Stealth aircraft, its always good to have stealth fighter in our own inventory.

Good thinking. Do not ignore the SAM option. They are very important.

FGFA would also be needed fo attacking enemy targets stealthily doing to them what you feel the J-20 may do to us.

A MiG 21, or better LCA which is stealthy by virtue of small size and composites and RAM paint with BVRs may well be sufficient to take out a J-20 once detected.

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 02 Nov 2011 14:39

^just to point out that an effective long range radar isn't the only way to find the J 20. In a scenario where we would be expecting escalated hostilities an AWACS would probably be in the air 24X7.
Also you are judging FGFA and J20 as the same planes with different packaging. Both will NOT have the same stealth characteristics.

Also making an aircraft stealth doesn't make it invisible foremost example would be a USAF F117 which was shot down by Yugoslav AD by making small modifications to their SA3 pechoras but that was a totally different story

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 02 Nov 2011 14:42

Prabal wrote:
2)Now lets say we have very effective long range radars & we were able to detect the intruder stealth aircraft. Lets assume we have two options here(ignoring SAM option), we can either send a sukhoi 30 mki fighter aircraft or a FGFA to intercept the intruder. IF we send the Sukhoi 30 Mki, it will detect the intruder with the help of direction from ground radar station, but there will be one disadvantage for su30- the intruder stealth aircraft can paint the su 30mki with its radar(& have a good missile lock) atleast somewhat prior to the su 30(because of stealth).In this case, it can either shoot an air to air missile or wil try to disengage & return.

Sure, "assuming" that J-20 is really very stealthy, it will detect before MKI detects J-20. And while that will be an advantage, who is to say that MKI will not be able to detect J-20 before they come under each other's the missile range? The "effective" range of most BVR missiles is under 60km (under the best of conditions) and that can even drop to less than 15-20 km depending upon the trajectory, speed and altitude of both the a/cs. Remember that MKI is almost a mini AEWAC with the current BARS radar. Imagine what its detection and tracking range will be after getting a new AESA radar after Super 30 upgrade.

Taking a leaf out of Shiv Saar's book, you don't "necessarily" need a stealth fighter to counter another stealth fighter. Maybe a large nosed fighter with an exceptionally powerful radar will do the trick. Remember that the stealth characteristics of a fighter remain "by and large" the same for its whole life (40 yrs) but a radar's potency can be upgraded much more frequently and cheaply.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Nov 2011 14:53

The J-20 seems to be strong on frontal stealth alone. Not all aspect stealth.

member_20047 · Post by **member_20047** » 02 Nov 2011 15:21

@abhinavjo- hi..I knew this point will pop up..but forgot to add disclaimer

...actually I didnt included SAM & AWACs option because then we will have too many/complex scenarios..I just wanted to describe the effect of stealth in simplest possible way...agree with you that J20 & FGFA will have different specifications..but again assumed they will be somewhat similar in stealth aspect(just for sake of simplicity)

@Gaur- thanks for replying...my point was that J20(or any stealth aircraft) may get good radar lock before su30mki assuming both the radars have similar detection ranges,etc. However, in case of stealth vs stealth we may have upper hand as we know enemy's position/flight path without him knowing the position or numbers of our interceptors...

member_20047 · Post by **member_20047** » 02 Nov 2011 15:25

^^Can someone please help me in understanding the effect of stealth in passive & active radar homing missiles...will it be easy for stealth aircraft to break the radar locks without using any jamming or electronic countermeasures...

any input will be of help..thanks!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Nov 2011 16:26

Bala Vignesh wrote:
shiv wrote:
er quality of life==quality of accommodation?
Of course sir.. A soldier is much more alert and efficient if he can rest peacefully. So having a "proper" accommodation facilities directly impacts the quality of their life.
JMO.

For long peace time postings in a hostile environment, comfortable accommodation is essential for that time of day when the soldier actually gets time off. If you read about soldiers routine in Siachen or along the LoC, the day is not 9 AM to 5 PM with R&R from 5.01 PM to 8-59 AM where the accommodation is available with sauna, lounge etc.

It's not that soldiers should not have all that and do not need or deserve that, I think the definitions of what is "good accommodation" for a soldier needs to be stated. In most instances, facilities for a hot meal, change of clothes, a comfortable bunk and some washing/bathing facilities would be the basic minimum for comfort. TV, easy access of communication with home are added extras. If you start going beyond that then a logistical nightmare is created. But that apart, the army deliberately chooses not to increase luxury levels for soldiers far beyond what they may have in their homes in the villages. And for camaraderie and morale reasons the officers too cannot afford to live like rich pigs with a whole lot of creature comforts among men with Spartan accommodation who spend days and nights on patrol roughing it out in the jungle, shitting in the open, not bathing or changing clothes and eating cold rations. Note that the soldier has to be "alert and efficient" under these conditions which is what soldiering is all about.

I read a couple of books on the psychology of soldiers in war and among the points that were made is that wartime conditions can be so awfully bad that a simple thing like a bath or change of clothes boosts morale greatly. Maybe I should write a description (from the books) of just how bad things can get.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 02 Nov 2011 17:14

Prabal wrote: ...my point was that J20(or any stealth aircraft) may get good radar lock before su30mki assuming both the radars have similar detection ranges,etc. However, in case of stealth vs stealth we may have upper hand as we know enemy's position/flight path without him knowing the position or numbers of our interceptors...

Your'e right. With a reasonably good radar, it is possible that J-20 will acquire radar lock earlier. And that would obviously be an advantage. However, I just meant to convey that I don't agree with the popular belief that legacy fighters stand no chance in a confrontation with LO fighters. I don't see stealth as a silver bullet (which seems to be the popular belief) but as a part of a very complex equation.
I believe that a legacy fighter has a chance against a stealth fighter depending upon various factors including radar, optical sensors, EW suite and armament to name a few.

Prabal wrote:^^Can someone please help me in understanding the effect of stealth in passive & active radar homing missiles...will it be easy for stealth aircraft to break the radar locks without using any jamming or electronic countermeasures...

any input will be of help..thanks!

I am no expert, but this is a simple explanation as I understand it.
Radar stealth is reduction of detection range. So, if a radar is powerful enough to detect a stealth a/c before it reaches its missile envelope, the missile will work with its usual performance.
Having said that, I remember an interesting point brought up by Karan M. A low rcs may also mean the EW systems has to work less to protect the a/c from an enemy radar. So, the jamming can be more effective.

member_20047 · Post by **member_20047** » 02 Nov 2011 19:58

^^But isn't the active radar homing missile depend on its own radar transreceiver in the terminal phase. Even, in case of semi-active radar homing missiles, its the radar receiver in the missile itself which tracks the radar waves(provided by the mother aircraft's radar) bounced off the target :S

So I thought, stealth will have some kind of impact on such kind of air to air missiles. Please let me know if my understanding is correct.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 03 Nov 2011 01:26

^^
You mean to say that a low rcs will impact the effectiveness of active radar homing missiles in terminal phase? Your line of thinking is very interesting but unfortunately I don't know the answer. Perhaps more knowledgeable members can be of help here.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 03 Nov 2011 02:18

From: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1187972

shiv wrote:Oh of course it is a big deal. But that was not the question. Please read again. Quality of life is not accommodation alone, but working conditions as well. You can have the best accommodation in the universe but if you can't get back there for weeks at a time because you are camped out somewhere in the wilds, no bath, no hot food, where does your "quality of life" come in from the accommodation? How does accommodation=="quality of life"? That was my question.

Fair enough. I interpreted your original answer differently.

member_20047 · Post by **member_20047** » 03 Nov 2011 09:24

Hi Gaur...yes I was thinking on the same line...I have two points to add here:-
1)The radar antenna will be definitely small as compare to the parent aircraft because of small nose cone. That means its capability will be difinitely less & more prone to stealth features ???
2)I have also read somewhere(guess wikipedia) that some radar homing missiles have anti radiation features so that if a target aircraft try to jam the radar of these missiles they automatically switch to anti radiation & track the source of radiation. But since stealth aircraft may not necessarily use active electonic jamming because of inherent stealth features, the anti radiation feature will also be of no/little use??

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 03 Nov 2011 09:57

Prabal, I am not an expert but rather a newbie, but what you are saying sounds logical. In fact this should be an issue with all kinds of Radar Guided AAM's and SAMs. This means such missiles would have to come closer to the stealth target before they can acquire lock using their own sensors, active or passive. But this should not be much of an issue with missiles which can get mid-course guidance from the mother platform. As long as the mother platform is able to track the stealth aircraft, it can provide mid-course guidance to the AAM/SAM, till it is that much nearer to the target and acquire its own lock. However this reduces the net fire & forget capability of the mother platform.

However, it needs to be kept in mind that stealth aircraft's typically have stealth properties in a relatively narrow wave length range, hence systems which are using radar which are beyond this narrow wave length range can still work. Quite an irony here that the older SAM/AAM systems which use longer wave lengths are better suited to hunt a stealth aircraft.

So maybe using a long wavelength radar to for locating aircrafts and using IR/Optical based missile, like Mica, maybe a good method that can be further developed. The problem with longer wavelength radar is that they do not provide very good resolution, however they do provide us with good estimation of the target location and then we can fire a IR/Optical AAM/SAM in LOAL mode, which flies to the estimated position, maybe it requires mid-course guidance, and then locks on the target and homes in. Just my 2 cents.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 03 Nov 2011 14:53

RayC is back?

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 03 Nov 2011 16:08

question to Oldies..... :
During our country was on war such as kargil/1971/65.. do the civilians faced any restrictions such as usage of fuel or other daily needs..? ,
did our our country faced any attrition in any of the daily needs of civilians..?

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 03 Nov 2011 16:27

A pooch on the Somali pirate menace..

I just read from BR's news feed that Somali pirates are now seeking out Indian saliors and seafarers. Now the Somali pirates have Indians in their custody for over 6 months now. What is stopping the GoI from pursuing these scumbags and retrieving our citizens? I believe the MARCOS are more than capable of mounting such missions.. Is it lack of clearance to enter Somali waters/territory? Or just the absence of accurate intelligence from the ground?

Sorry if this question was already posted before.

member_20047 · Post by **member_20047** » 03 Nov 2011 17:49

Thanks for the insight bmallick.

So we will have some kind of impact of stealth in missile performance. I tried to find out more information from Google but got nothing significant. Taking into account bmallick & Gaur's input, I guess we will having following limitations with radar homing missiles:-

Active radar homing missile- The effective "fire & forget" range may get reduced as mother aircraft have to give continuous guidence update to the missile before it get a good radar lock. But I have a query here, will the mother aircraft have any way to check if the missile got good radar lock? Or is it automatic that after the missile reaches say X km near to the enemy aircraft's predicted path it will switch on to active homing?? In the second case still there are chances that stealth will evade the missile.

Semi-Activeradar homing missile:- In case, stealth reduces the detection & tracking range of the radar of mother aircraft it will further reduce the effective range of these missiles. Here I am assuming that radio wave detection ability of missile's radar equipment will be of lesser capability because of antenna size constraints, etc.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Nov 2011 17:49

sudhan wrote:A pooch on the Somali pirate menace..I just read from BR's news feed that Somali pirates are now seeking out Indian saliors and seafarers. Now the Somali pirates have Indians in their custody for over 6 months now. What is stopping the GoI from pursuing these scumbags and retrieving our citizens? I believe the MARCOS are more than capable of mounting such missions.. Is it lack of clearance to enter Somali waters/territory? Or just the absence of accurate intelligence from the ground?Sorry if this question was already posted before.

Many factors, primarily intelligence as you've pointed out, the situation is exactly similar to this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayaguez_incident

Note the heavy American casualties, and men left behind to rot to death. No force, no matter how well trained or equipped, can operate in the absence of comprehensive intelligence of the ground situation. The Cambodians were not baying for American's blood, hence the crew was able to make out alive, but this might not be the case in Somalia.

Also in India, public reaction will be extremely negative for events like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Linda_Norgrove