Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby PratikDas » 30 Oct 2013 15:45

^^^ WarbirdsOfIndia.com has this:

28 Aug 96
Mil Mi-17
Flt Lt Sandeep Jain*
Cr[ashed] in Siachen Pakfire 6killed

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby wilson_th » 30 Oct 2013 17:55

What is the launch cost of ISRO compared to SpaceX's reusable rocket which is in development.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby shan » 01 Nov 2013 08:18

Final good bye to my lurking status and progressing to my new "newbie' status. Hope to contribute and learn from all.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby shan » 01 Nov 2013 08:28

How do i change my email id to a generic one ? Tried editing the profile but putting in a gmail id give me the 'error email id not allowed'. My understanding is that non generic id is required only for registration and can be changed post activation.

Thanks for your time.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby koti » 11 Nov 2013 20:24

I have the same problem too. I no longer use the registered email ID

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Hemanth » 15 Nov 2013 16:22

Another long time (3+ years) lurker moving to the trainee position! Kind of surprised that the user name was available.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Pratyush » 18 Nov 2013 13:25

Moderators,

Reading various threads and certain responses & questions as well. It seems that setting up the production plant and the creation of supply chain infra is an issue. This is one of the issues that I feel is limiting India's ability to manufacture weapons.

In order to examine this issue, would it be a good Idea to start a thread, that will examine the issues relating to the production of various weapon systems.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Mayuresh » 20 Nov 2013 00:27

Great to see the INS Vikramaditya finally join service. Usually, the commanding officer of big IN ships has the rank of Captain. But I read somewhere [cannot remember where :-( ] that the INS Vikraaditya would be commanded by a Commodore for the first few years. What is the possibility of that happening? Are the INS Chakra and/or Ins Arihant also commanded by a Commodore, given that they are other high profile acquisitions?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Aditya Watts » 20 Nov 2013 22:24

Mayuresh wrote:Great to see the INS Vikramaditya finally join service. Usually, the commanding officer of big IN ships has the rank of Captain. But I read somewhere [cannot remember where :-( ] that the INS Vikraaditya would be commanded by a Commodore for the first few years. What is the possibility of that happening? Are the INS Chakra and/or Ins Arihant also commanded by a Commodore, given that they are other high profile acquisitions?

I do know that at least on US naval carriers there are often more captains on the vessel and also a flag officer. The X/O is also a captain and often the head of certain departments are also officers with the rank of captain (like Captain Scott in Star Trek, who is captain of engineering 8) ).The C/O of the vessel is an officer with the rank of captain while the commander of the CBG is a flag officer. So the operational command of the ship goes to the captain while the strategic decisions of the entire group goes to the flag officer (for example a rear-admiral).

I can imagine the same applies to the case of INS Vikramaditya where the Commodore is the ranking officer in charge of the CBG whereas an officer with the rank of captain is in direct command of the vessel.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 25 Nov 2013 17:25

Nope. The FOC (Flag Officer Commdanding) of the fleet (in Vikramadiya's case the Western fleet) will be in command of what you refer to as CBG and it will be his flagship. Our carriers are embedded in the fleet and FOC is usually emabrked alongwith all his staff when carrier is in a major operation. Commodore Berry will not be in command of the escorts. He will only command the Vikramaditya and its air group.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 25 Nov 2013 17:29

Mayuresh wrote:Great to see the INS Vikramaditya finally join service. Usually, the commanding officer of big IN ships has the rank of Captain. But I read somewhere [cannot remember where :-( ] that the INS Vikraaditya would be commanded by a Commodore for the first few years. What is the possibility of that happening? Are the INS Chakra and/or Ins Arihant also commanded by a Commodore, given that they are other high profile acquisitions?



All carriers are always commanded by Commodores ( for the last couple of decades atleast). On board the Commodore is referred to as Captain. Subs, Destroyers and Frigates are commanded by Captains. Corvettes by Commanders and smaller ships by Lt Cdrs.

On Destroyers and Frigates the engineering section is split into two - Electrical and Mech and each has Commander commanding it. I forget what the exact designations are but can check and revert if you want.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Aditya Watts » 25 Nov 2013 18:12

Thanks for the extra inputs and clarification Akshay. It is interesting to see the differences with different navies. The Indian armed forces are always a surprise in all aspects. 8)

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 25 Nov 2013 19:01

What do you mean surprise?? Have you served in other forces or Indian forces ? Or perhaps have some experience in military matters?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Aditya Watts » 25 Nov 2013 21:51

By that I mean the way how the Indian forces display themselves as a result of their way of making decisions or choices.
For example the fact that a platoon commander in the Indian Army usually is a JCO whereas in other armies it's usually a LT.
Or, the unique composition of the Indian air force inventory with a mix of Russian and European aircraft that also has accounted for a unique way of handling these aircraft. The Indian air force uses both Russian and NATO-standard doctrines and had created a unique perspective on this matter.

And, the example that you gave; where you said that the Commodore is in charge of the carrier operations where usually the U.S. for example that honor goes to a Captain.
This all together makes the Indian armed forces a very interesting force to read about.

No real-life experience in the armed forces, just an armchair major with a healthy interest in defense matters.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 25 Nov 2013 23:05

Well interesting sounds better than 'surprising'. I think your statement came across a bit negatively. You should look at the context in which we operate. A lot of people use the US as a benchmark (sometimes gleaned from tom Clancy I suspect). What works for them may not work for us. And they learn a lot from us esp in CI Ops. CIJWS is one of the best in the world. So is HAWS. I remember reading on BR that once the Americans were surprised that our ships including one Delhi class bashed through a storm for an excercise when they thought it was too dangerous.

Take platoons being commanded by JCOs. In Engr Regts platoons are commanded by Lts becuase there is enough to go around and its a technical arm. In Infantry Batallions auth strength is around 19-21 offrs but posted is hardly 8-10 offrs of which 1/2 will be on course and 1/2 on leave. COs have to manage with very few officers. How can platoons be commanded by Lts then? Our officer to OR casualty ratios are the highest in the world. Our COs lead from the front (Col NJ Nair immediately springs to mind) and make the supreme sacrifice, we do not use heavy weapons in CI Ops.

I have no idea on Russian and Nato 'standard docrtines' so will not comment besides saying this - we must have evolved our own sops given our reuqiremnets and constraints. And they work.

One of the reasons why Commodore commands the carrier is heavier rank structures in Indian armed forces because of issues with pay, career progression opportunities, position of armed forces within the govt, absoprtion of personnel into civilian roles etc. All have a bearing.

From your armchair once in a while please also turn our way and look at our unique constraints and the environment we operate under and think why something is done the way it is.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Aditya Watts » 26 Nov 2013 02:39

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Well interesting sounds better than 'surprising'. I think your statement came across a bit negatively. You should look at the context in which we operate. A lot of people use the US as a benchmark (sometimes gleaned from tom Clancy I suspect). What works for them may not work for us. And they learn a lot from us esp in CI Ops. CIJWS is one of the best in the world. So is HAWS. I remember reading on BR that once the Americans were surprised that our ships including one Delhi class bashed through a storm for an excercise when they thought it was too dangerous.
Thanks for your reply. I certainly wasn't being negative on the Indian Armed Forces, on the contrary. Glad I could clarify that. :)
From your armchair once in a while please also turn our way and look at our unique constraints and the environment we operate under and think why something is done the way it is.

I do, this is one of the reasons why I enjoy being part of this board. I get the chance to learn more behind the story.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 26 Nov 2013 13:35

Glad I could help :)

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Mayuresh » 27 Nov 2013 19:48

Akshay Kapoor wrote:One of the reasons why Commodore commands the carrier is heavier rank structures in Indian armed forces because of issues with pay, career progression opportunities, position of armed forces within the govt, absoprtion of personnel into civilian roles etc. All have a bearing.



Thanks for the explanation, Akshay. This newbie armchair general has another noob question.

You mentioned that submarines are commanded by Captains. But until now, all our submarines have been SSK / SSN only. Now that we have / will have an SSGN in the Arihant, should it not be commanded by a Commodore, given the strategic importance of this asset? I guess the Navy should have taken a decision on it already by now, we will know at commissioning what it is.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Mayuresh » 27 Nov 2013 19:56

Akshay Kapoor wrote:All carriers are always commanded by Commodores ( for the last couple of decades atleast). On board the Commodore is referred to as Captain. Subs, Destroyers and Frigates are commanded by Captains. Corvettes by Commanders and smaller ships by Lt Cdrs.


INS Viraat is commanded by a Captain (Captain R HariKumar, see from 14:27 in the video). His shoulder stripes are those of a Captain. I know you mentioned that the Commodores are referred to as "Captain" when they command a ship but they probably will retain their commodore stripes, or am I wrong here? http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/jai-hi ... aat/194476

Just guessing: they put a captain because it is an ageing ship not that huge of an asset now.

Another question that has always bothered me is why did the Indian Navy use the INS Vikrant in the 1971 war? As I understand, an Aircraft carrier should be used in places where we do not have air-bases (it is indeed a floating air-base that can be sent far away from the shores). But in the presence of air-bases nearby (Kalaikonda, Kolkata, Agartala, etc. for instance), why would we risk a carrier being bombed / torpedoed? Or did we not have any good land-based A/C in the Eastern sector then?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Eric Leiderman » 28 Nov 2013 01:19

Hi Mayuresh

There could be a few reasons for using a carrier

1) the air defences were located along the land borders, the
sea route was not so well defended
2) The Air force had its hands full with a target rich enviroment and ground support
3) The IN was confidant of proctecting their asset
4) Time was off the essence, since Khan was breathing down our neck East Pak had to be liberated and fast so we threw whatever we had at that sector.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 28 Nov 2013 05:23

^^

Hi Mayuresh

From the navy website.


''After having served as Captain for five years (or as stipulated in current orders), an officer in the Indian Navy is constituted a Commodore. This is not really a rank, since all Captains with four years service become Commodores as long as they are ashore. If they take command of a ship, however, they revert to Captain. Thus, all Commodores are borne in the rank of Captain.''

This would not be his first major command. He would have commanded a destroyer or major frigate before this and a shore posting in between. So chances are that he has 4 years as Captain. But do try to research on the net. There are a lot of nuggets if you look hard.


I don't know the naval tactical imperatives of 71 ops but in addition to what Eric said I would say if you have resources you would use them. Why waste them?

On another note broadly my view in the current situation is that we are a peninsular country with the A&N islands and therefore we should explore utilizing our 'unsinkable carriers' better. Especially given our lack of strategic clarity - carriers are a strategic weapon and I wonder if we will use them effectively. This is an ongoing discussion in the navy and I can see the logic of those who are concerned about escorts, helicopters etc for carriers and who think that submarines are a more immediate requirement.

But its important to remember that when the carrier plans were made a balanced escort, helicopter and sub force was also envisaged. But these did not materialize.

No idea about the Arihant. My money would be on a Captain. But I maybe wrong.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 29 Nov 2013 13:35

And got confirmation from a serving officer. Commodores commanding a ship will wear a Capt's stripes.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Mayuresh » 02 Dec 2013 23:52

Akshay Kapoor wrote:And got confirmation from a serving officer. Commodores commanding a ship will wear a Capt's stripes.

Thanks Akshay and Eric, that helps a lot. Quite interesting that a Commodore will wear Captain's stripes when commanding a ship. I guess there is an equivalent of this situation in the Air-Force between an Air Commodore and Group Captain as both command AFS (depending on size). Wondering if there is any equivalent of this in the Army. My guess is there isn't any Brigadeer who, instead of commanding a brigade, would command a battalion and be called a Colonel but I could be wrong.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 03 Dec 2013 01:29

Lets not get carried away here ;-) Purely naval tradition.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Rahul M » 03 Dec 2013 02:19

the reason for this comes from the historical background of the term Commodore. in pre-modern navies (from one of which IN draws much of its traditions from) commodore was an operational designation (like task force commander) rather than a rank. a commodore was the senior officer (usually captain) who held command when a flotilla of two or more ships sailed together.

tidbit : US navy still doesn't have a commodore rank but a 1star rear adm. lower half. commodores are still used as operational designations.

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Questions related to a Naval Scenario

Postby Avinandan » 06 Dec 2013 20:10

I have thought of a typical Naval Scenario that begs many questions to be answered ? Gurus please provide those or correct if my assumptions in the scenarios are incorrect. You could always improve or add any factors to the scenario that I might have missed.

Base Situation
Year 2014. Vikramaditya or IAC-1 is on active war duty and has been deployed some 300 to 400 kms away from the could enemy's coast. How well can it defend against couple of enemy submarines (and lets assume that they are pretty good/silent ones) having Supersonic Onyx/Sunburn type missiles. Assume that the rogue submarines are located about 220 to 250 from the Aircraft Carrier and its CBG and are pretty desperate to down Vikramaditya and other other ships (as bonus).

This scenario begs many questions that needs to be answered :--
Question 1 : What are the surface ships that the Indian based CBG supposed to consist ?
Question 2 : Would the CBG consist of any submarine (probably a Kilo class presuming Arihant would be pretty new at that time and Navy might not risk it so early in the supposed war) ?
Question 3 : If answer to above is yes, would it have enough endurance to work along with Vikramaditya and other associated Surface combatants of the CBG?
Question 4 : If answer to above is yes, then would Indian Kilo class submarine detect the very silent rogue submarine ?

I do not think the answer to 4 would be Yes.

So, assuming that CBG and the 2 rogue submarines are located at the vertices of an equilateral triangle of each side of appox 220 to 250 kms, I guess it would be pretty difficult to detect the rogue submarines. Though there is very slim chance that ASW helicopters (say Ka - 28) patrolling to at-most 200 kms across the four corners of square/perimeter (assuming the Aircraft Carrier is at the center of the square/perimeter) every 2-3 hours could detect the rogue submarines.

Question 5 : What would be the detection range of the sensors / dipping sonars of the Ka-28 ASW helicopters ? Would it be able to detect a silent submarine located about 60-120 km away ?

Question 6 : So at this juncture, how can the enemy have its best chance to sink the Vikramaditya ?

I guess that the rogue submarines would ripple fire 4 anti-ship missiles towards Vikramaditya, Barak-1 SAM might miss couple of incoming missiles and the AC gets the hit. Thereafter other surface combatants and the ASW helicopter race to the origin of the cruise missile launches, try to detect and attack the rogue submarine, however by that time ( I assume about 1 to 1.5 hours after Vikramaditya got hit) submarine might slip away.

Question 7 : Are there any other better options for the submarines to attack the CBG (probably even at the expense of their own destruction) ?

Question 8 (the final question that is bugging me) : In the above scenario, there is almost no role of torpedoes (assuming the max range is 50 km) from either side. So does this mean that the current era of torpedoes are getting outdated because the range is not sufficient to kill the enemy and still survive from the counter attack ?

Assumption :
P-8I Poseidon is not taken into account.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby S_Prasad » 07 Dec 2013 00:43


Prem
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Prem » 10 Dec 2013 00:39

'No vernacular market for military literature'
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 101076.cms

LUCKNOW: Former Army chief, General Shankar Roy Chowdhary said we need more writers in vernacular language for military writing even though English has become de facto Indian language.He was in the city for a session on Military Writing in India with Lt Gen P C Katoch, Maj Gen Ravi Arora and Maj Gen G D Bakshi at the Lucknow Literature Carnival.The officer, who was Army chief from 1994-1997, said "India has history of armed struggle, the fight for Independence being the biggest case in point but politicians have not acknowledged this fact, hence not many publishers show much interest in military writing."He added that books like 'I Hanuman' and 'Singh's Choice' which gave accurate account of the act of valour of Indian soldiers were written and published by foreign entities.According to Maj Gen Ravi Arora, "Military Headquarter is now giving clearance to books by service men but Ministry of Defence still discourages this practice." He said another problem with military writing is that publishers want controversial writing to make it sell.Maj Gen G D Bakshi conveyed "a need to eulogise modern military heroes to teach ethics and values to young growing children". He mooted the idea of Indian war comics, which was endorsed by Anupam Sinha, creator of comics like 'Commando Dhruv', in a workshop on writing cartoons.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby koti » 11 Dec 2013 09:31

1000th post people!
:)
Am I an Oldie yet?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby govardhanks » 12 Dec 2013 09:49

I have seen 4 aircraft flying in Hyderabad every morning 9 or 9.30 am since 4 days, they don't seem to be civilian although might be a jet trainer? anyone here know whether they are the new HAL jet trainers?

13 12 2013 morning 9 30 no plane flies and I become idiot. sorry for the post.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby govardhanks » 14 Dec 2013 19:25


koti
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby koti » 22 Dec 2013 03:45

Crazy stuff....

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby vasu raya » 22 Dec 2013 21:45

Can DEW cause weapon warhead or propellant to cook off? not by puncturing holes in the casing but by heating up the insides like Microwave

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Rahul M » 22 Dec 2013 22:55

most modern explosives require a sudden impulse explosion of a detonator to do their thing. a slow heating up would most likely not work. rdx for example burns harmlessly if you add a match to it but explodes if you use a detonator.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby vasu raya » 23 Dec 2013 09:23

if one wants to avoid a spysats' gaze at a particular spot temporarily, can a civilian flight at 12km altitude be flown along an arc, that arc is traced by a point on a virtual line running along the sats sensor and the spot to be 'protected' on that particular pass. lets assume that the spysat is in a highly elliptical orbit or a polar orbit and ignore the civilian air corridors for the moment.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby member_27581 » 06 Jan 2014 13:46

What happens to the retired MiGs are they scrapped?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Manish_Sharma » 09 Jan 2014 04:23

How come a new/late model engine like ej200 have less thrust than old model engine like ge414 or ge414epe?

Or does ej200 still performs better than 414 inspite of less thrust?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Comer » 10 Jan 2014 11:52

There is a documentary on National Defence Academy premiering on Discovery Channel on 26th Jan(2100 IST)

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby KiranM » 13 Jan 2014 16:57

What is the difference between Landing Platform Dock (LPD) and Landing Ship Dock (LSD)? Both have a well dock for Landing Crafts and a flight deck for helicopters.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby sattili » 14 Jan 2014 20:46

Hello All,

After lurking for a decade and an earlier attempt to get registered(I changed the company so mail id is gone) finally I am happy to be part of BR. Hoping to ask a question or two and learn from the gurus.

Thank you
Sattili


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