Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 26 May 2009 03:53

thanks tilak.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 27 May 2009 01:00

BRFites what happened to the nukkad thread ?

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 27 May 2009 04:04

suryag wrote:BRFites what happened to the nukkad thread ?

Moved to the newly created General Discussion Forum, login is required.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 29 May 2009 17:37

what is AOA (Angle of Attack) in aircrafts?

- Nitin

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 May 2009 18:48

nrshah wrote:what is AOA (Angle of Attack) in aircrafts?

- Nitin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_attack

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 31 May 2009 13:49

Ejection Seat label
http://www.pringoo.com/custom-designs/did-19284

I am going to buy a pair of these for my vehicle
will post a photo after i stick it

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 31 May 2009 18:30

Can we start a new thread for IAF modelling related topics

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 31 May 2009 19:07

Kakarat, sure go ahead.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 02 Jun 2009 14:36

How many use google news to browse news on India? More I use it and compare the headlines by various newspapers more I realize that "The Hindu" almost always has the worst headline on Kashmir from Indian perspective as also it usually has a good one for Pakistan and China. Anyone else noticed this or is it just me?

http://news.google.com/news?ned=in&topic=n

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 02 Jun 2009 19:32

Is it true that the reason why we use the green colour in night vision equipment is that thje human eye can distinguish far more shades of green than any other colour?

Vishu · Post by **Vishu** » 02 Jun 2009 22:06

this is Vishwanath universally called Vishu.

I am impressed by this site. The content and discussion level in Fora is outstanding.

This is perhaps the best military site I have ever seen.

Kudos to the Indian defense establishment for such a spectacular site.

I doubt even the US military has a site close to this caliber.

Military intelligence is often disparaged as an oxymoron. The content of this Government run military site belies this truism.

The Indian government should be congragulated for this outstanding effort.

Pardon the cloying adulation - but one does not expect such effort from an arm of the establishment - especially a consortium of defense websites.

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Jun 2009 22:52

Vishu Sir,
Welcome to BR.

This is NOT a GoI run site. This is a Indian defence related site run by and frequented by defence enthusiasts who are also very highly knowledgeable in this field making most of the info in this site very informative/authentic.

Since our defence establishment is very opaque and our defence journalists (lovingly called DDM here) are so bad, this site will get you the most authentic open source info on our forces out there in cyberspace which otherwise never gets reported.

Have a great time in BR...

Vishu · Post by **Vishu** » 03 Jun 2009 03:32

sum wrote:Vishu Sir,
Welcome to BR.

This is NOT a GoI run site. This is a Indian defence related site run by and frequented by defence enthusiasts who are also very highly knowledgeable in this field making most of the info in this site very informative/authentic.

Since our defence establishment is very opaque and our defence journalists (lovingly called DDM here) are so bad, this site will get you the most authentic open source info on our forces out there in cyberspace which otherwise never gets reported.

Have a great time in BR...

My profuse apologies - I seem to have done the same thing the infamous DDM (chuckle) have done - being cursory in research. I should have at least read the "about us" link. I will enjoy the site and hopefully contribute.

By the way the Wiki reference to BR - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_Rakshak - has an interesting snippet

The site gained some notoriety in December 2007, when fingers were pointed at it for leaking the Official War Histories written by the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) that remained classified for sometime.

The link to an NDTV site is broken. I have little faith in the veracity of NDTV but I was not aware of any buzz over thiis at least in Indian/US media I follow. Perhaps someone caoint to the real story somewhere in BRF archives.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 03 Jun 2009 10:30

Cross-posting from SF thread

kaangeya wrote:SF are simply a means to an end, so why are we putting the cart before the horse? Quite a bit of so called "modern thinking" on SF dates back to WW2. Conditions don't always change being contingent upon an interplay of factors. The thoughtful application of certain methods works - as did the Tangail airdrop - the only successful post-WW2 use of para capability with all conditions coming together - air superiority, advancing front, superior knowledge of the territory, being some of them. Given India's super-rich experience of unconventional ops, there is a very realistic understanding of the limits of SF. for instance the Indian military has no illusions about the capability of small teams and has never fallen for the fictitious mystique surrounding this method.

A better way to evaluate our SF resources would be to identify the many different offensive and defensive situations we are faced with, and benchmark our resources with what others have.

kaangeya wrote:
KiranM wrote:
Specific example Sir? The only one I am aware of are the Mukti Bahini related ops in 1971 war.
You've got a lot of catching up to do. Spend a few months reading through BR.

Can anybody point me towards the material on India's unconventional ops expereience? The ones other than 1971 war.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Kiran

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 03 Jun 2009 13:40

@ ^^^
Well, i remember reading an article posted in a BR forum. Sorry, I forgot which one. It was regarding NSG. That article said, NSG has been involved in over 101 operations so far! Now, we all barely know about those operations. Even in BR, the NSG page mentions only a few operations. Only some operations are known to the general public. Rest all, are under the cloak, i feel.
Who knows, our special forces may have conducted operations in other countries also

Now, i know, you are talking about "unconventional ops", and what I am talking about is quite different. But, I just mentioned it, to give an example of how many military operations do not find their way into media.

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 03 Jun 2009 15:37

Didn't know what to make of this or where to put this....

'Love Jihad' - A Jihadi Organisations to trap Hindu girls
February 27, 2009

Falgun Shuddha Dwitiya

Pathanamthitta (Kerala): Few days back a secular Malayalam Daily, Kerala Kaumudi exposed shocking revelations about a jihadi organisation named ‘Love Jihad’ which has been conveniently ignored by rest of the media.

Trapping naive Non Muslim girls (Read as Hindu girls) in the web of love inorder to convert to Islam is the modus operandi of the said organisation. Already more than 4000 girls have been converted to Islam by this Jihadi Romeos.

Special branch of Police started investigation when marriages of such large scales are reported within last 6 months. As per the instructions to recruits of this organisation, they have to love a Hindu girl within the time frame of 2 weeks and brainwash them to get converted and marry within 6 months. Special instructions to breed atleast 4 kids have also been given. If the target won’t get trapped within first 2 weeks, they are instructed to leave them and move on to another girl.

College students and working girls should be the prime target. Once completed their mission the organisation will give 1 lakh Rupees and Financial help for the youth to start business. Free Mobile Phone, Bikes and Fashionable dresses are offered to them as tools for the mission.

Money for this Love Jihad comes from Middle East. Each district have their own zone chairman’s to oversee the mission. Prior to College admission they make a list of Hindu girls and their details and target those whom they feel vulnerable and easy to be brainwashed.

The Report came in Kerala Kaumudi can be viewed at

http://news.keralakaumudi.com

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 03 Jun 2009 16:43

Unable to post in the Mil forum. Wonder why. Testing.

Oh, this one went through. Must be a browser issue then. Was using Goog chrome.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 03 Jun 2009 16:49

Chrome acts crazy at times

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Jun 2009 21:09

Can anybody point me towards the material on India's unconventional ops expereience? The ones other than 1971 war.

Kiran-ji,
By unconventional ops, do you mean against enemy uniformed armies(China/BD/Pak/Myanmar) or even any "unconventional" ops against the "stateless" pigs roaming freely in the valley/NE?

If it is the latter, i vaguely recall reading a article long time back about how NSG SAG personnel would get dropped in the middle of the Kashmiri jungles with minmum rations for week long "irregular" ops. Also, the pics in the sites of martyred SF personnel (cant remember the names) show those officers looking like 400% Pathans with Ak-47s in a few pics taken at some unknown locations in the NE/J&K...

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 03 Jun 2009 21:24

sum wrote:
Can anybody point me towards the material on India's unconventional ops expereience? The ones other than 1971 war.
Kiran-ji,
By unconventional ops, do you mean against enemy uniformed armies(China/BD/Pak/Myanmar) or even any "unconventional" ops against the "stateless" pigs roaming freely in the valley/NE?

If it is the latter, i vaguely recall reading a article long time back about how NSG SAG personnel would get dropped in the middle of the Kashmiri jungles with minmum rations for week long "irregular" ops. Also, the pics in the sites of martyred SF personnel (cant remember the names) show those officers looking like 400% Pathans with Ak-47s in a few pics taken at some unknown locations in the NE/J&K...

Sum ji, Either will do. My understanding of unconventional ops by SF (or for that matter by any force) is undertaking missions for prolonged period of time in hostile territory. This may involve living off the land or regular replenishment of essentials while in hostile territory. The missions involve hit and run raids, sabotage, assasinations of tactical targets, etc. All these being targets of opportunity and planned for while in hostile territory.

The definition of hostile territory can be opponent countries or our very own territory where the writ of stateless pigs run large.

As per Kaangeya ji there is info on BR itself on Indian experience on the same. Wanted to know about such ops (other than that undertaken through Mukti Bahini which I have read about through BR and non- BR)

I wanted some direction on how to go about finding this info on BR.

Thanks,
Kiran

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 04 Jun 2009 09:39

i have a newbie doubt......

which are the regiments in IA is getting specialised training in sniper guns....?,
is it only used by special forces.?

in a war like situations are we effectively using the snipers....?

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 04 Jun 2009 10:53

There is no specific regiment that is comprised of snipers alone.... Indeed snipers are a specialist soldier in a squad and you will find snipers in squads and platoons. Though snipers may be tasked to operate alone also in time of need(usually accompanied by a spotter). In special forces the sniper becomes more important and essential as he can take out high value targets with minimum risk due to distance.

in a war like situations are we effectively using the snipers....?

War..? snipers were active even in Mumbai terror attacks... they are active now at this moment in Assam jungles and in J&K....snipers are specialised skirmishers active always to slow down the enemy at the least.......

Srivastav · Post by **Srivastav** » 04 Jun 2009 11:04

Jimmy, how bout you do some research first ?

There are pages after pages of similar discussion on BR....anyways this once iam gonna help you out and do the search for you....please follow this link and reads the posts from RayC and others.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &start=200

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 04 Jun 2009 11:20

Srivastav wrote:Jimmy, how bout you do some research first ?

There are pages after pages of similar discussion on BR....anyways this once iam gonna help you out and do the search for you....please follow this link and reads the posts from RayC and others.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &start=200

ok yaar........
..............thanx

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 04 Jun 2009 11:25

I too, have a newbie doubt. What exactly is a "ghatak platoon"? How are they deployed, how do they differ from regular soldiers, how are they trained, etc etc. As many details as possible. Also, is there an equivalent of our ghatak platoons in armies around the world?

Thank you

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 04 Jun 2009 11:37

SivaVijay wrote:There is no specific regiment that is comprised of snipers alone.... Indeed snipers are a specialist soldier in a squad and you will find snipers in squads and platoons. Though snipers may be tasked to operate alone also in time of need(usually accompanied by a spotter). In special forces the sniper becomes more important and essential as he can take out high value targets with minimum risk due to distance.

in a war like situations are we effectively using the snipers....?
War..? snipers were active even in Mumbai terror attacks... they are active now at this moment in Assam jungles and in J&K....snipers are specialised skirmishers active always to slow down the enemy at the least.......

is our sniper guns are all weather operational i mean day/night..........?
did we use our snipers effectively in kargil war.........?

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 04 Jun 2009 11:38

atreya wrote:I too, have a newbie doubt. What exactly is a "ghatak platoon"? How are they deployed, how do they differ from regular soldiers, how are they trained, etc etc. As many details as possible. Also, is there an equivalent of our ghatak platoons in armies around the world?

Thank you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghatak_Force

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 04 Jun 2009 13:26

jimmy_moh wrote:
atreya wrote:I too, have a newbie doubt. What exactly is a "ghatak platoon"? How are they deployed, how do they differ from regular soldiers, how are they trained, etc etc. As many details as possible. Also, is there an equivalent of our ghatak platoons in armies around the world?

Thank you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghatak_Force

On page 28 of the SF thread there is a video on Ghatak NCO training. Please watch that.

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 04 Jun 2009 13:58

is our sniper guns are all weather operational i mean day/night..........?
but did we use our snipers effectively in kargil war.........

Most modern snipers are all weather capable and as far as Day and Night goes, It is the accessory(read NVG) that will restrict as sniper at night not the rifle. NVG's when available may give the ability to snipe at night albeit with as reduced range.

To use a sniper effectively you need a vantage point, you should be able to see the enemies movements and a high ground is an advantage in Kargil we didn't have these. I believe in Kargil we would have used a squad marksmen ...... a sniper assignment i doubt that , maybe gurus like RayC sir who have been in the front can enlighten us more.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Jun 2009 14:29

The night telescopic sights themselves are a great help.

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 04 Jun 2009 15:00

RayC wrote:The night telescopic sights themselves are a great help.

sir ,

what are constraints for using sniper in mountain warfare.... ?

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 04 Jun 2009 15:52

jimmy_moh wrote:
RayC wrote:The night telescopic sights themselves are a great help.
sir ,

what are constraints for using sniper in mountain warfare.... ?

Jimmy, search and download "The Ultimate Sniper" from Rapidshare (there are quite a few copies up there) and all questions will be answered - believe me, thats one book that isn't a boring read... far from it.

I see a lot of sniper related questions on mil forum, so i guess its a good idea to suggest this as reading...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ultimate_Sniper

The Ultimate Sniper: An Advanced Training Manual for Military and Police Snipers is a book written by Major John Plaster and published in 1993 (Paladin Press, 584 pages, ISBN 0-87364-704-1 ). An expanded and updated version was published in 2006.

The book teaches methods that help the reader master their sniping skills. It was hailed as a landmark book by the firearms press and is widely used as a reference by military and law-enforcement personnel. The book came under the spotlight in October 2006 when a video about "Juba the sniper" mentioned it as an inspiration.

Also included in the book is some history on sniping, including background on the British Army's first sniper unit, the Scottish Highland Lovat Scouts. These scouts fought in the Second Boer War and were fittingly described as "half wolf and half jackrabbit" by their leader, Frederick Russell Burnham, an American who served as Chief of Scouts for the British Army in Southern Africa. All of this material is covered in much greater detail in Plaster's illustrated book, The History of Sniping and Sharpshooting.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 05 Jun 2009 19:30

Does anyone know about the status of Scorpene subs? I read in Hindu that the delivery is expected to be late.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 05 Jun 2009 22:23

I don't know where to put this. So...
From http://kaiser-footloose.blogspot.com/20 ... india.html

At Amritsar airport we keenly read a prominently displayed notice which exempted only 27 key government functionaries including the President, Prime Minister, Supreme Court Judges, Governors, Chief Ministers and Federal & State Ministers from security checking. The list did NOT include members of Lok Sabha, nor did it include Service Chiefs of Staff!

This is most shameful! I had seen a similar notice at Guwahati airport about a year ago. What does this imply? That there is a possibility of service chiefs being terrorists? It also shows the often displayed spinelessness of defense top brass. Any self respecting nation would have taken great offense at this. That this has not been opposed by general public and media, is understandable. Most people simply do not care. They are more concerned with the romances of movie and sports stars. But why have the services allowed such humiliation to be inflicted upon themselves? Can RayC or someone else has any knowledge of any opposition of this at any time?

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 05 Jun 2009 22:57

Parijat Gaur wrote:I don't know where to put this. So...
From http://kaiser-footloose.blogspot.com/20 ... india.html
At Amritsar airport we keenly read a prominently displayed notice which exempted only 27 key government functionaries including the President, Prime Minister, Supreme Court Judges, Governors, Chief Ministers and Federal & State Ministers from security checking. The list did NOT include members of Lok Sabha, nor did it include Service Chiefs of Staff!
This is most shameful! I had seen a similar notice at Guwahati airport about a year ago. What does this imply? That there is a possibility of service chiefs being terrorists? It also shows the often displayed spinelessness of defense top brass. Any self respecting nation would have taken great offense at this. That this has not been opposed by general public and media, is understandable. Most people simply do not care. They are more concerned with the romances of movie and sports stars? But why have the services allowed such humiliation to be inflicted upon themselves? Can RayC or someone else has any knowledge of any opposition of this at any time?

This has been a long standing issue for many in India. There was even a report that George Fernandes was also security checked in USA although he was a defence minister of India. Also, remember we are a parliamentarian democracy where the rules are made by the civilian authority not the armed forces. Problem I believe is that once you extend this list to armed forces our entire babudom will also rise to get the same perks and knowing them they can easily smuggle terrorists , illegal immigrants etc. etc. So no one gets anything and everyone is happy.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Jun 2009 23:17

Parijat,

Why do Service Chiefs allow humiliation?

Sureesh Mehta would not. Maybe not Maybe.

How did JJ get his Governorship?

That should answer!

There has to be a civilian control of the Armed Forces. It has now become a babudom control and they are not the sole instrument of govt, but powerfiul enough to know the wheeling dealings of their Ministers!!

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 05 Jun 2009 23:33

AmitR wrote: Also, remember we are a parliamentarian democracy where the rules are made by the civilian authority not the armed forces. Problem I believe is that once you extend this list to armed forces our entire babudom will also rise to get the same perks and knowing them they can easily smuggle terrorists , illegal immigrants etc. etc. So no one gets anything and everyone is happy.

You say "Everyone is happy". That is exactly the problem. The services(and general public for that matter) should NOT be happy with the situation. I agree with you that we are a democracy. I agree that rules are, and should, be made by civilian authorities. However, while one should be humble, there is a limit to the humiliation one should endure. This is sheer cowardice from services and shamelessness from general public and media . It is hardly an argument that others will ask for the same treatment. Others have not given the same service to the nation. But let us leave the emotions aside. Supreme Court judges are exempted from the security check. The same problem should have risen from their exemption. Service chiefs are not any regular babu. It is not unfeasible to exempt service chiefs from security checks without extending the same for others. All it requires is some spine from the services and a little support from general public.

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 06 Jun 2009 00:23

President, Prime Minister, Supreme Court Judges, Governors, Chief Ministers and Federal & State Ministers from security checking. The list did NOT include members of Lok Sabha, nor did it include Service Chiefs of Staff!

There is nothing wrong with the above. Judiciary , Executive and Legislature are higher on the totem pole of hierarchy. It would be humiliating if say the Defence Secretary or the Home Secretary have an exemption but the Chiefs of staff do not. but that is not the case here.

http://164.100.47.134/newls/instruction/precedence.pdf

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 06 Jun 2009 00:49

HariC wrote: There is nothing wrong with the above. Judiciary , Executive and Legislature are higher on the totem pole of hierarchy. It would be humiliating if say the Defence Secretary or the Home Secretary have an exemption but the Chiefs of staff do not. but that is not the case here.

http://164.100.47.134/newls/instruction/precedence.pdf

So the Defence secretary is also not exempted from security checks at airports? I was not aware of that. But even so, would you not agree that is demeaning to perform security checks on Service Chiefs? If it takes defence secretary to be exempted from the checks, so be it. But IMO Service Chiefs should not have to give security checks.
PS: Are you sure that Defence secretary is not exempted from security checks at airports? I remember seeing a notice at Guwahati airport stating to the contrary(I may be mistaken here though).

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 06 Jun 2009 01:01

My apologies for coming off as foolish, but I am not sure that I fully understand your post. However, I will try to post to the best of my understanding.

RayC wrote: Why do Service Chiefs allow humiliation?
Sureesh Mehta would not. Maybe not Maybe.
How did JJ get his Governorship?
That should answer!

Are you implying that Service Chiefs dance to the tune of ministers in lieu of being posted as governor of insignificant places after retirement. If so, this is a sentiment which is shared by many.

RayC wrote: There has to be a civilian control of the Armed Forces. It has now become a babudom control and they are not the sole instrument of govt, but powerfiul enough to know the wheeling dealings of their Ministers!!

True, babudom has better understanding of the ways of their ministers. But that would hardly matter if Services were to take a tough stand.