Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Harsha.H.D · Post by **Harsha.H.D** » 25 Aug 2009 11:04

India artillery upgrade stuck, Pak gets howitzers from US

India’s artillery modernisation has been stuck due to scam scares ever since the Bofors scandal but Pakistan has gone ahead, equipping its army with the latest guns that now threaten to give it an edge over the Indian Army.

While India has not received even a single new artillery gun in the last two decades, Pakistan recently received a batch of 67 self-propelled artillery guns from the US using War against Terror funds granted by Washington.

Experts say these M-109 A5 155 mm howitzers give Pakistan a definite conventional edge over the Indian Army that is years away from induction of similar systems. The most modern guns in the Indian Army are the Bofors that were procured in the 1980s.

“While the Indian Army modernisation is getting nowhere, Pakistan is steadily modernising not only its artillery but other arms and services as well. This will lead to erosion in India’s conventional superiority if not checked immediately,” said Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal, a former artillery officer, who heads the Army’s think tank, Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS).

India artillery upgrade stuck, Pak gets howitzers from US

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 25 Aug 2009 14:14

Its actually very good that this has happened. IMHO

I remember we inducted T - 90s only after Porkis got T - 80U from Ukraine.

We always need a rude shock to get us out of our stupor. Now that, this has happened I wish there is a hue and cry made as to how this will seriously undermine India's conventional edge. (Louder the better)

Then partly out of panic and partly out of being pushed to act the defence establishment will act and there will be "special purpose purchases" and the like.... acquisitions will be made under all sorts of fancy names the babus can come up with. Then we will proudly announce to the world that now we have a new arty gun, which rocks.

How I wish Pakis would have done this long back.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 26 Aug 2009 08:37

^^ We did receive a shock in the form of Kargil when suddenly the usefulness of the Bofors came forth. Unfortunately that has not yet translated into new guns for the Army.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 27 Aug 2009 02:38

Denel was blacklisted because of a different reason than the superb 155mm gun that was mated to the Arjun chassis. (Bhim SPG).

Keeping this in mind the whole government departments should be blacklisted because of some babus being corrupt!
It is time the Kangrass govt woke up to reality and remembered that diplomacy doesnt win wars...guns could.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 27 Aug 2009 03:34

No place to honour India's war dead

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 27 Aug 2009 16:11

Can anyone tell me if there is a thread for equipment costs and comparisons here.

For example, I would want to compare the cost of MBRLs in addition to capabilities to see how effective Pinaka really is.

Similarly costs of tanks / artillery / ICVs / Guns and Howitzers/ small arms etc.

More importantly, costs of raising a new division / brigade / battalion / company / etc.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 27 Aug 2009 16:29

shameekg wrote:^^ We did receive a shock in the form of Kargil when suddenly the usefulness of the Bofors came forth. Unfortunately that has not yet translated into new guns for the Army.

The Army needs those Bhim guns ...... It also had components from Arjun MBT. i hope the ban on Denel expires soon

More generally speaking, is the delay in acquiring more .... being done for some specific purpose or is it just lack of funds.

best sub movieof all time? 20,000 leagues under the sea

GI Joe?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 28 Aug 2009 11:44

An article on the Modernisation of the Indian Army

Modernisation of IA

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 28 Aug 2009 23:17

Drevin wrote:More generally speaking, is the delay in acquiring more .... being done for some specific purpose or is it just lack of funds.

I think it has more to do with our long drawn process of listing suppliers, sending RFP's, testing guns, getting a report, blacklisting suppliers and then starting the process again!

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 31 Aug 2009 12:33

heh get the idea. I was beginning to think IA was waiting to see what guns are in the neighbourhood before they buy. But as u point out its sheer lack of will.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 31 Aug 2009 13:05

Need Help...

Is there a forum where Counter terrorist operations are discussed?

Could some one please guide me...

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 31 Aug 2009 15:54

Bala Vignesh wrote:Need Help...

Is there a forum where Counter terrorist operations are discussed?

Could some one please guide me...

AFAIK no such thread exists, but you could use this one

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... ?f=3&t=110 or the "Indian Army" thread. I think someone suggested a thread for that, but the mighty admins rejected

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 01 Sep 2009 20:09

Team,

I am looking for a thread which would be focussed to ATGMs. I really want to know why the Indian Army has ordered a measly 13 NAMICAs and only 443 Nag missiles.

Can't the NAMICAs run with our armoured formations? I am sure the NAMICAs would be extremely useful, not only in the deserts and plains against Pak, but more importantly, can be carried to the mountains / plateau in Leh-Ladakh and perhaps in Tawang against the Chinese. Also, the Nag can also destroy heavy artillery like MRLS launchers, howitzers, etc, right.

Is the Nag system (NAMICA + replenishment vehicles) seen as too huge and cumbersome to be carried around?

Also, the reports regarding the cost of the NAG missile are contradictory, with some claiming it to be cost effective when compared to western missiles with similar capabilities, while some others considering it too costly

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 01 Sep 2009 22:22

^^^
The NAG is a good system...however AFAIK the doctrine of the IA calls for infantry carried Anti tank weap systems.
Sure the NAG can take out the MLRS systems but will it be able to get in the range for carrying out this attack?

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 01 Sep 2009 23:09

nikhil_p wrote:^^^
The NAG is a good system...however AFAIK the doctrine of the IA calls for infantry carried Anti tank weap systems.
Sure the NAG can take out the MLRS systems but will it be able to get in the range for carrying out this attack?

There would definitely be some requirement for a missile system like the Nag that is mounted on a tracked vehicle. Else it would neam that we wasted INR 300 crore on developing a system that the forces do not even want!

MRLS can be hit by the HeliNa, I guess, with the Dhruv carrying it near the MRLS system, unless the MRLS has the capability to fire guided missiles (AFAIK, Chinese and Pak operated MRLS only fire unguided rockets). The NAG would probably be used against howitzers and field guns.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 01 Sep 2009 23:19

Mayuresh wrote:
nikhil_p wrote:^^^
The NAG is a good system...however AFAIK the doctrine of the IA calls for infantry carried Anti tank weap systems.
Sure the NAG can take out the MLRS systems but will it be able to get in the range for carrying out this attack?
There would definitely be some requirement for a missile system like the Nag that is mounted on a tracked vehicle. Else it would neam that we wasted INR 300 crore on developing a system that the forces do not even want!

MRLS can be hit by the HeliNa, I guess, with the Dhruv carrying it near the MRLS system, unless the MRLS has the capability to fire guided missiles (AFAIK, Chinese and Pak operated MRLS only fire unguided rockets). The NAG would probably be used against howitzers and field guns.

MLRS are generally protected by a outer ring of infantry with AA defence. The MLRS is too important to be on its own...
The NAG is primarily meant in an Anti Armour role. This was previously done by the Anti tank round mounted on a Jonga (RCL guns as well). Yes, we do have a requirement, however the NAG is still not mature enough AFAIK.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Sep 2009 23:45

I would like to clarify that the Infantry has a specific task and is not used for 'protection' of any other combat arms or combat support or combat service support.

The defence of all these 'other' unit is inherent in the defence grid that is organised, and what is more, the WE caters for their local defence.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 01 Sep 2009 23:48

RayC wrote:I would like to clarify that the Infantry has a specific task and is not used for 'protection' of any other combat arms or combat support or combat service support.

The defence of all these 'other' unit is inherent in the defence grid that is organised, and what is more, the WE caters for their local defence.

Actually I meant the same...infantry is what we civvies call it...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Sep 2009 23:50

krishnan wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:Need Help...

Is there a forum where Counter terrorist operations are discussed?

Could some one please guide me...
AFAIK no such thread exists, but you could use this one

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... ?f=3&t=110 or the "Indian Army" thread. I think someone suggested a thread for that, but the mighty admins rejected

ramana ji, if you are reading this, what happened to our COIN thread ?

@bala, try looking for it. if you don't find it you can start one on counter terrorism/COIN.

raghava · Post by **raghava** » 02 Sep 2009 02:56

Hello All,

This is my first post, though I have been a lurker for some time now. Am still learning a lot!

This was reported in ToI today

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 961056.cms

I have got a few questions about this report. Please forgive me if my questions display my lack of insight.

1 - Is this report reliable? or is it just another instance of scare-mongering/psy-ops?
2 - With all the massive delays in our arms procurement on the one hand and Pukistan's Unkil donated arsenals - will we be able to prevent heavy damage to Indian territory in case of hostilities?
3 - (This question is probably the most naive!) - What will it take for our polity to realise the importance of a sound defense and Internal Security policy?

Thanks and apologies if this topic has been covered elsewhere

Raghava

koti · Post by **koti** » 02 Sep 2009 09:41

Welcome to Dream Land.
The report is not new at all. The Indian defence establishment is crying aloud about Paki nuclear ambitions from a long time. The only thing new is it coming from US of A.

And regarding Harpoon, US may be angry only because the Chinese(Technicians) might have modified their missiles. Pak does not possess required skills to do that according to few sources.

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 03 Sep 2009 19:30

I posted this question on the missile discussion page, but realized later that this is a more appropriate forum.

Team,

One basic question: If we scale up the Agni (i.e. make it carry more fuel / increase the stages / make it longer / heavier), can the IRBM become an ICBM? Or are we trying to develop some path-breaking new technology to increase the range while keeping the size similar?

From the look of it, most of china's ICBMs look like scaled-up versions of the IRBMs (i.e. they are massive in size, configured to carry larger fuel, etc.)

Ofcourse, it is no cakewalk, even to scale up a missile and a lot of hard work shall be required, but it still is much easier than inventing a new technology. Given the urgency of the requirement, I guess we are scaling the missiles up

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 04 Sep 2009 03:06

How does one visually differentiate a mi-8 from a mi-17 heli?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Sep 2009 12:44

Developed from the basic Mi-8 airframe, the Mi-17 was fitted with the larger TV3-117MT engines, rotors, and transmission developed for the Mi-14, along with fuselage improvements for heavier loads. Optional engines for 'hot and high' conditions are the 1545 kW (2070 shp) Isotov TV3-117VM. Recent exports to China and Venezuela for use in high mountains have the new VK-2500 version of the engine with FADEC control.

The designation Mi-17 is for export; Russian armed forces call it Mi-8MT. The Mi-17 can be recognized because it has the tail rotor on the port side instead of the starboard side, and dust shields in front of the engine intakes. Engine cowls are shorter than on the TV2 powered Mi-8, not extending as far over the cockpit, and an opening for bleed-valve outlet is present forward of the exhaust.

Mi 17

govardhanks · Post by **govardhanks** » 04 Sep 2009 17:39

Mods please can you people tell me, Where can i include info on the world war II aircrafts and armoured vehicles both failed and succeeded which are not used now a days.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 07 Sep 2009 11:55

To the all powerful powers behind the iron curtain

I have a humble request:

In the past I have posted a couple of scanned articles from AFM. Due to some ingenious djin magique I get me hands on the latest AFM and ACM issues every now and then would it be okay if I eshtart scanning stuff especially MRCA candidate articles ityadi and posting them on imageshack, ifile ityadi and post ze links on the BRF for the faithphuls to read....Danke'

durvasa · Post by **durvasa** » 08 Sep 2009 19:31

One request:

I was planning to include an IAF/IN video clipping (30-60 seconds) on teamworki n our corporate (small team) video .

Can anyone please point me to a reasonable high-res video of Tarang (Dhruv), SuryaKiran or IN (streaming armada), if possible, in public domain. Please send the link on this thread or mail me at D U R V A S A at g m a i l . c 0 m

thanks,

Suneet · Post by **Suneet** » 10 Sep 2009 00:09

can anyone please outline the course material in IMA...?is it possible to get hold of the textbooks or lectures?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 10 Sep 2009 11:42

govardhanks wrote:Mods please can you people tell me, Where can i include info on the world war II aircrafts and armoured vehicles both failed and succeeded which are not used now a days.

One wonders if there will be adequate post to start a new thread,

Try the existing threads on Aircraft and Armour. But then, it could derail the threads.

Have you adequate material on the subjects?

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 10 Sep 2009 12:42

Hello everyone.
.
I am in final year of my graduation.
This time Army is coming to our college for recruitment, next to next week. For SSC. They say that they will first have GDs and then PIs. No physical check-up et all.
.
Anyone who have some knowledge about the GD topics and especially what 'type' they will be looking for? Should I act sober

? aggressive

? or, just cool-minded

? Team player?
.
Also I am little underweight. My Body Mass Index is 20 something.
.
Also what are career options are there after SSC service is over?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 10 Sep 2009 12:58

Akshut wrote:
Also what are career options are there after SSC service is over?

The Army sponsors officers who are to leave the Army for MBA courses in top Business schools like XLRI. 40% of the tuition fees is paid by the govt. Thereafter, you are on your own.

Many of my officers have taken this course out and are earning fat salaries, but they do still miss the Army and the adventure and the diverse challenges.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 10 Sep 2009 13:33

Many of my officers have taken this course out and are earning fat salaries, but they do still miss the Army and the adventure and the diverse challenges.

Ray sir, you forgot to mention job security.

Sometimes I feel whether I would have handled the stress of facing terrorists in the jungle better than the life in private sector. However it is mere speculation as I was never deemed fit to be in the armed forces. Anyway grass always looks greener on the other side

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 10 Sep 2009 14:08

RayC wrote:
Akshut wrote:
Also what are career options are there after SSC service is over?
The Army sponsors officers who are to leave the Army for MBA courses in top Business schools like XLRI. 40% of the tuition fees is paid by the govt. Thereafter, you are on your own.

Many of my officers have taken this course out and are earning fat salaries, but they do still miss the Army and the adventure and the diverse challenges.

Thanks for the Info Sir!

govardhanks · Post by **govardhanks** » 10 Sep 2009 15:47

RayC wrote: One wonders if there will be adequate post to start a new thread,
Try the existing threads on Aircraft and Armour. But then, it could derail the threads.
Have you adequate material on the subjects?

I have some material i cannot say that whether it is adequate or not. I did't think about new thread if there are several contributors then it can be done.

I now am posting in Aircraft and armour sir. I think we to have to see for any contibutors to topic and then proceed sir.

Thanks

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 10 Sep 2009 16:50

Ok.

Start a thread!

Maybe it will be a surprise for most of us!

Ricky · Post by **Ricky** » 11 Sep 2009 09:20

Salute
I am new here and its great to be here

Sorry if this is not the right place for this but please enable avatars and signatures, maybe the admins can approve them before they can be used

Also can anyone please guide me to the rules section, i cant find it anywhere..Also this is regarding Army recruitment of soldiers, anyone knows where in Delhi i can get lates information on recruitment rallies for soldiers GD both for the regular and TA done by the Army, Army HQ said keep looking in the newspapers but i am not good at that

I always miss it, is there a place where i can visit in Delhi to find info on this??

Thanks

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 11 Sep 2009 21:10

^^ "*** Forum Guidelines - Click to Read ***" is written in red at the top section of any forum page.
Any ways, here is the link.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Guidelines.html
Welcome to BR!

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 12 Sep 2009 04:00

Sorry to post it here...where is humor thread??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR7OjC3KKBU&feature=fvw

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 12 Sep 2009 09:18

Humour Thread

Hope this helps!

Seek and Ye Shall Find!

nitinr · Post by **nitinr** » 12 Sep 2009 14:08

Where can i find BENIS thread..